In the post from Rick that Loz was referring to, he points out that AiG wasn't anywhere near "mostly completed". The preview document at GenCon was a rough draft (admitting as much in its preface), and was missing the chapters on "Cults, Elder Races, HeroQuests, Lunar Magic and illumination, Mysticism, The Runes, Appendices, and the Scenario" - most of which cover subjects absolutely central to Glorantha.

So the idea that there's a complete game out there that Chaosium has senselessly suppressed just doesn't fly.

Also, I note that several people on this thread have griped about too many RQ editions coming out already, and letting RQ6:AiG and RQNext both come out would only exacerbate that problem even more than just publishing one of them would (plus confuse the market).

I suppose TDM could have put out a Glorantha supplement under whatever new name they apply to RQ6, but I think it would have been a mistake for Chaosium to greenlight that: Heroquest Glorantha, 13th Age Glorantha, and RQNext each have a niche in part because each of those games has a radically different system, whereas RQNext and The Game Formerly Known As RQ6 would share too much BRP-flavoured DNA and confuse the market.

Quote from: Warthur;878841In the post from Rick that Loz was referring to, he points out that AiG wasn't anywhere near "mostly completed". The preview document at GenCon was a rough draft (admitting as much in its preface), and was missing the chapters on "Cults, Elder Races, HeroQuests, Lunar Magic and illumination, Mysticism, The Runes, Appendices, and the Scenario" - most of which cover subjects absolutely central to Glorantha.

and most of which is well known and referred to umpteen times among many different supplements.  The only thing AiG needed to do was the actual rules conversion, a ton of which had already been done.  There's dozens of pages already written on the Cult of the Crimson Bat, none of which has or ever will change, only the specific game effects need to be worked out.  BTW, the index wasn't done either, make sure to toss that out in your similar defense threads on purple and central.

TDM wants to be stand-up guys (which they always have been) and just move on without fighting or saying much of anything really, that's up to them.  There's a little more to the story that Loz and Pete can't or won't talk about and Chaosium has every interest in not talking about.

Quote from: Warthur;878841(plus confuse the market)...confuse the market.

You say that a lot.  As far as market confusion goes, I wonder if the Kickstarter would have sold quite as many copies of RQ2 if people knew it meant the flushing of RQ6 and AiG.  I didn't see that as one of the stretch goals.

The Runes as personality thing is pretty interesting though.  Gods, Cults, People, all tied to Runes.  Why does a certain cult attract certain people?  Levels in a Cult or even spells available might be tied to Rune levels.  It would be cool if they could manage to really make the setting feel like everything to some degree could be described in the interaction of runes, like a Taoist sorcerer might describe things in terms of Yin, Yang or the elements.

Quote from: Warthur;878841In the post from Rick that Loz was referring to, he points out that AiG wasn't anywhere near "mostly completed". The preview document at GenCon was a rough draft (admitting as much in its preface), and was missing the chapters on "Cults, Elder Races, HeroQuests, Lunar Magic and illumination, Mysticism, The Runes, Appendices, and the Scenario" - most of which cover subjects absolutely central to Glorantha.

So the idea that there's a complete game out there that Chaosium has senselessly suppressed just doesn't fly.

Fine. It needed more time be developed. That really doesn't change the fact that I would have liked to have seen Pete Nash finish and release the project.

QuoteAlso, I note that several people on this thread have griped about too many RQ editions coming out already, and letting RQ6:AiG and RQNext both come out would only exacerbate that problem even more than just publishing one of them would (plus confuse the market).

There will be seven editions of RQ either way. A supplement for RQ is not a new edition.

QuoteI suppose TDM could have put out a Glorantha supplement under whatever new name they apply to RQ6, but I think it would have been a mistake for Chaosium to greenlight that: Heroquest Glorantha, 13th Age Glorantha, and RQNext each have a niche in part because each of those games has a radically different system, whereas RQNext and The Game Formerly Known As RQ6 would share too much BRP-flavoured DNA and confuse the market.

TDM's game will have a new name, and they have already stated it's not going to be some RuneQuest sound-alike. To the completely uninformed gamer who wanders into a store, they will look like different games, moreso than HeroQuest and RuneQuest look like different game.

The people that know they share common DNA are the people already know the situation and won't be confused.

Anyway, if Chaosium was worried about having two Glorantha games with common DNA on the shelves next to each other, they wouldn't have released a reprint of RuneQuest 2 (Cover title "RuneQuest") for sale in the same year that they plan to release a brand new edition that they plan to simply call "RuneQuest".

They don't seem to believe that gamers are as easily confused as you are. I think Adventure in Glorantha would have been a more distinct title on the shelf next to the MD/Chaosium line-up of RuneQuest, RuneQuest, and HeroQuest.

Let me add though, it was very cool that Pete got compensated for his work.

Quote from: Baulderstone;878918TDM's game will have a new name, and they have already stated it's not going to be some RuneQuest sound-alike. To the completely uninformed gamer who wanders into a store, they will look like different games, moreso than HeroQuest and RuneQuest look like different game.

Ah, but I'm not talking about a situation where TDM sell a generic rulebook under a new name and Chaosium put out RQNext, I'm talking about a situation where RQNext and GameNoLongerCalledRQ6: Adventures In Glorantha are both in stores. The uninformed gamer who thinks that both games both look cool will be decidedly confused.

QuoteAnyway, if Chaosium was worried about having two Glorantha games with common DNA on the shelves next to each other, they wouldn't have released a reprint of RuneQuest 2 (Cover title "RuneQuest") for sale in the same year that they plan to release a brand new edition that they plan to simply call "RuneQuest".

As they've explained in the latest designer's notes, they're OK with RQ2 being out because RQNext will be designed to be compatible with RQ2 supplements to a greater extent than RQ6 is. Two basically compatible games being out there would cause less confusion than two similar games with very slightly incompatible systems.

Quote from: Warthur;878923Two basically compatible games being out there would cause less confusion than two similar games with very slightly incompatible systems.

Two?
RuneQuest is possibly one of the games where people doing some basic research before purchase would be turned away by the sheer chaos(ium) of the line. Which would, of course, be doing themselves a disfavour, as all the games that came out of the original RQ are basically compatible.

Quote from: Warthur;878923Ah, but I'm not talking about a situation where TDM sell a generic rulebook under a new name and Chaosium put out RQNext, I'm talking about a situation where RQNext and GameNoLongerCalledRQ6: Adventures In Glorantha are both in stores. The uninformed gamer who thinks that both games both look cool will be decidedly confused.

I think even the slower gamers among us can tell understand that difference between a core rulebook for one game and a supplement for an RPG with a different game.

When I worked in an FLGS in the '90s, I didn't see any confusion between V:tM and the GURPS campaign setting for it. People that buy RPGs get this kind of thing, much like how Xbox owners are generally savvy enough to not take Playstation games home.

QuoteAs they've explained in the latest designer's notes, they're OK with RQ2 being out because RQNext will be designed to be compatible with RQ2 supplements to a greater extent than RQ6 is. Two basically compatible games being out there would cause less confusion than two similar games with very slightly incompatible systems.

Sounds like the RQ3 Standard and Deluxe rules headache all over again, with each supplement needing to support both. Two "Basically" compatible game with the exact same title seems more confusing than two similar games with different titles.

Jesus Wept, Warthur, give it a rest with the Apologia.  What marketing weasel speak are you going to toss out next, "brand dilution"?

They were coming out with a RQ6 based RQnext.  Decided to boost funds by doing a reissue of the last version they had all the text for, RQ2.  Because rereleasing old games is pretty popular, they sold a lot, so decided to take away from that RQ2 had enough of an audience to use that instead of RQ6.  So they flush Loz, Pete and RQ6 the same way they flushed Ben Monroe and Magic World (ie. After all sort of agreements of continued products).  Simple case of perceived economic benefit over-riding any other possible concerns and using technicalities to ensure the result.  These are the people that when contacted to see if they held any rights to the name Heroquest (as in the Milton Bradley boardgame) said no, then went out and bought the rights within 2 weeks so they could hold the rerelease of the Boardgame hostage via IP trolling.  Perfectly legal Douchebaggery.

Also stop with the idiotic "confusion" argument.  Glorantha in Heroquest (the name of a boardgame), 13th Age (D&D variant), Runequest (of which there have been 6 versions) is fine.  However, God forbid that in addition to Runequest 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 Glorantha is now also available in 6!!!111!!! Glorantha will never recover!!!!  We'll have the dead rising from the grave, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

This is Glorantha for Yelm's sake.  The simplest, easiest God to understand, Orlanth, is four gods in one, and that's one of a thousand gods.  The only setting on earth more complex than Glorantha is Tekumel and that's because Phil invented his own frickin language.  Glorantha people got over the concept of there being more than one version of Runequest 36 years ago and they've been humming along ever since, your faux-concern for their comprehension unneeded. #NotYourExcuse

Oh noes, what about the gentle children, the brand new minds entering Glorantha, surely we must think of them, you say?  Any new gamer that can handle Glorantha isn't going to be confused by Glorantha being available in 4 systems instead of three.

Finally, if the "two Runequests" was a valid concern, then AiG could have come out under the title of the new L+P game, a conversion supplement.  As Baulderstone pointed out, not many gamers are going to confuse a supplement vs. a full game.

Quote from: Baulderstone;878934Sounds like the RQ3 Standard and Deluxe rules headache all over again, with each supplement needing to support both. Two "Basically" compatible game with the exact same title seems more confusing than two similar games with different titles.

Especially since there's already umpteen d100 games out there using a similar system.  To someone in the d100 sphere, that's a feature, not a bug.

I've been out of the loop for the past 8 months - will Design Mechanism be publishing anything else for RQ6? Will they be still able to sell RQ6? Sorry to ask a redundant question.

Quote from: Rincewind1;878941I've been out of the loop for the past 8 months - will Design Mechanism be publishing anything else for RQ6? Will they be still able to sell RQ6? Sorry to ask a redundant question.

No more anything under the RuneQuest name, however, the settlement gives Loz and Pete the right to the RuneQuest6 system, under a new name.  They will be unable to publish Adventures in Glorantha, but they will be able to republish all their previous stuff (Monster Island, Mythic Britain, etc) under the new brand currently known only as The Game Formerly Known As RQ6 (TGFKARQ6).  All the current plans for releases they had, Classic Fantasy, Mythic Greece, etc will be released under the TGFKARQ6 brand.

Quote from: CRKrueger;878943No more anything under the RuneQuest name, however, the settlement gives Loz and Pete the right to the RuneQuest6 system, under a new name.  They will be unable to publish Adventures in Glorantha, but they will be able to republish all their previous stuff (Monster Island, Mythic Britain, etc) under the new brand currently known only as The Game Formerly Known As RQ6 (TGFKARQ6).  All the current plans for releases they had, Classic Fantasy, Mythic Greece, etc will be released under the TGFKARQ6 brand.

Thanks. Phew, for a moment I was scared RQ6 (or TGFKARQ6) was gonna drop, and that'd be a darn shame.

Quote from: Rincewind1;878948Thanks. Phew, for a moment I was scared RQ6 (or TGFKARQ6) was gonna drop, and that'd be a darn shame.

Yeah that would truly have sucked.  It still sucks that the guys that kept RuneQuest relevant as a brand for 6 years while also writing cool stuff for HeroQuest Glorantha, a setting they were heavily invested in, got shut out.

QuoteI've been out of the loop for the past 8 months - will Design Mechanism be publishing anything else for RQ6? Will they be still able to sell RQ6? Sorry to ask a redundant question.

The name will change, but the system will remain current, even a tiny bit tweaked, and we will rebrand all the existing supplements and continue to produce new ones.

We still have to work out the full strategy for the transition from RQ to the new name, and this needs to be done with the MD guys. There's time enough to do that and we'll make everything clear in due course.

But rest assured, we're continuing as a company with the system we've built over the past decade or so.

Quote from: CRKrueger;878938So they flush Loz, Pete and RQ6 the same way they flushed Ben Monroe and Magic World (ie. After all sort of agreements of continued products).  Simple case of perceived economic benefit over-riding any other possible concerns and using technicalities to ensure the result.

Could you blame them, given the hole Chaosium was in when they took over?

Magic World and BRP apparently accounted for some figure substantially below 10% of their income, so I don't think the decision to shunt it way down the priority chain was at all inappropriate in the light of that, even before you consider stuff like the enormous stocks of old product that were sat in the warehouse taking up space and costing rental money to keep and the enormous mess the CoC7 Kickstarter had been left in.

Also, as I understand it Ben's role at Chaosium was substantially more than "guy who writes Magic World stuff" - he also seemed to be in an office manager sort of role, he was the person who wrote back when you sent a customer support message, and so on. Which is an important role, but also the sort of role that can end up suddenly not making sense once a major restructuring happens (and of course we don't know how long his job would have lasted if the restructuring didn't happen - because if it didn't happen, Chaosium might have just collapsed and everyone would be out of luck.)

Quote from: Warthur;878841As RQ6 would share too much BRP-flavoured DNA and confuse the market.

"Confuse the market" is 1990s thinking. Given the size and nature of the niche ere people are quite capable of sorting it out themselves. In the 2010s there is no good reason to say "Oh we don't want you do to that project because it will confuse people as to what we are doing."

Because of Avalon Hill, Mongoose, BRP, and TDM, Runequest hasn't been a Glorantha RPG for a long long time. So it is understandable that if Chaosium think it important to have a Runequest Glorantha RPG that they will make a new version. Only a few people are arguing with that.

What people are rightfully criticizing, including myself, is the notion that for marketing purposes there can only be one Runequest.