Quote from: econobus;878474Hi Rob! Good point. I'm sure all those Runequest fans who hate Glorantha can work on that number and get it up closer to the $460K that the "other side" has managed to demonstrate.

Oh wait. You're right, I forgot about 13th Age, which isn't out yet but adds another $113K to the Glorantha side of the ledger.

So it's $30K for the haters that needs to become what, $570K before MD really has to sit up and take notice of how foolish they're being? Get to it, haters! Start organizing those communities to push the funds to the Mechanism! Make The Game Formerly Known As RQ6 the biggest success story the industry has seen in decades!

A bit harsh, but the figures do speak volumes. A lot of people like Glorantha and a lot of people like RuneQuest in Glorantha.

Quote from: econobus;878474EDIT: but I am really curious where all the haters at besides this thread and its cousins on other sites. Because back in the day the perception was that Mythic Earth dropped like a rock and Avalon Hill had to bring in a lot of Glorantha content awful fast. Good to hear there was a huge cadre of Mythic Earth fans after all. It's a surprise. You've all been so quiet!

The people I know who prefer RQ3, or even RQ2, without Glorantha quite happily write their own setting material or play the occasional RQ game outside Glorantha. As they have their own settings, they don't need to buy anything else.

Alternate/Mythic Earth has its fans, myself included, but they don;t seem to be as numerous as fans of Glorantha, which is a shame.

I still think that a model of Chaosium producing a Gloranthan RuneQuest and other companies producing Alternate/Mythic Earth supplements for RuneQuest-Like games works really well.

Quote from: soltakss;878568The people I know who prefer RQ3, or even RQ2, without Glorantha quite happily write their own setting material or play the occasional RQ game outside Glorantha. As they have their own settings, they don't need to buy anything else.

Maybe that's "the dog that didn't bark" here. One of the first things I learned about the industry -- not the hobby, the commercial operation of game publishing -- is that you don't create products for people who don't buy products.

If the vast silent majority of RQ(N) players are people who don't buy products, it's great that they're having fun. With all that energy and creativity, I bet even the Glorantha fanatics in that group can play the world under any system without needing to rely on anyone for support.

Likewise, Mythic Earth or Questworld or Your Homebrew Here.

But when we move back into the commercial side, you got to follow the numbers. As far as I know the new Chaosium has limited capacity and limited room on the production calendar. (God knows!) They make hard choices. Numbers factor into those choices.

Did they hit every beat right? Of course not, the shift from RQ7 In Glorantha still feels "nebulous" and if I were the Mechanism I'd be gearing up to create amazing things to compete head to head with the new Chaosium platform. Maybe the question is really what products the vast silent majority would actually rush to buy and make that happen.

But is it a fatal and catastrophic failure for Chaosium? Hard to say unless we see numbers go the wrong way.

Quote from: Stainless;878560If the work for AiG has been done but they are now not allowed to sell it, is there anything legally stopping TDFM giving it away for free? Honest (and most likely naive) question, I know nothing about the law. Or can the retcon it to the Glorantha fan licence thing that is allowing D101 Games to keep publishing Glorantha material?

In short, the thing legally preventing that are the RuneQuest/Glorantha trademarks.  My impression from comments made by Loz on the TDM forum is that they've looked at every option they could think of and MD/C has replied in no uncertain terms that, aside from the 50 GenCon preview copies, that material may not be distributed in any form.

It's threads like these that put a tear to my eye.

Quote from: econobus;878574But when we move back into the commercial side, you got to follow the numbers. As far as I know the new Chaosium has limited capacity and limited room on the production calendar. (God knows!) They make hard choices. Numbers factor into those choices.

Hence my comment that Chaosium is exhibiting 1990s mentality in the 2010s. It not their production calendar that effected by the decision it is TDM's calendar. All they have to do is say "We allow TDM to release Adventures in Glorantha at the previously agreed royalty rates.". "We allow to for TMD to use continue to use the Runequest trademark in their products."

The relative numbers greatly favor Glorantha fans however in absolute terms we are talking a potential market of around 8,000 to 10,000 for Glorantha and probably 1,000 to 1,500 for Runequest 6. This is assuming that both companies attract additional sales 5 time in excess of backers. And I could be wrong about this in regards to TDM because Runequest 6 is a platinum seller on DriveThruRPG.


This is not a big market here. The idea that brand dilution is going to harm anybody in this situation is ludicrous. Especially when Heroquest Glorantha is not shutting down, nor is 13th age Glorantha.

With a market this small personal factors become very important. And the relevant factor is that there are a group that like the work that Pete and Loz do. This mess alienated that group. The only reason that it isn't a bigger mess is because the new management at Chaosium have the original guys behind Glorantha and Runequest as part of their team. And they are showing some love for the RQ2 rather than shoving a new and improved approach down everybody's throats.

Hence my opinion that in general Chaosium is making good moves except when it comes to TDM and Runequest 6. My opinion is that they should let them continue to use the Runequest trademark in some form. Perhaps not as Runequest 6 maybe something like Classic Fantasy powered by Runequest. And by all means let them release Adventures in Glorantha.

Quote from: estar;878581(good stuff on "why can't we support both?")

This is not a big market here. The idea that brand dilution is going to harm anybody in this situation is ludicrous. Especially when Heroquest Glorantha is not shutting down, nor is 13th age Glorantha.

Bu-bu-but I heard somewhere that "fragmentation" and "version creep" were killing that market because four versions (two Mongoose and now this fork) in ten years.

Quote from: econobus;878582Bu-bu-but I heard somewhere that "fragmentation" and "version creep" were killing that market because four versions (two Mongoose and now this fork) in ten years.

It already fragmented and won't be put back together. The d100 system behind Runequest is effectively open content. So what matters is what a company does with a system not the fact they are exclusive publishers of that system.

Because of the small size of the market it would in their best interest to incorporate everybody who proven competent at dealing with Runequest and Glorantha rather than exclude them.

The 90s way is thinking that by forcing everybody to use the same system you will reunite the fanbase. The 2010 way is to forge a community around the shared history of Runequest and Glorantha. With Chaosium as the clear leader. Similar to what Wizards did with 5e and classic D&D. So while you have multiple system the community is re-united with people freely switching and interacting with different yet similar systems.

Quote from: econobus;878460So where'd all those thousands of RQ3 fans who loathe Glorantha go? I'm sure they're out there somewhere and MD just stabbed themselves in the wallet because the backlash will be ruthless and extreme.

But out here in the cheap seats all I see is a high crossover between the RQ2 and Glorantha fan bases that raised $460K plus over two kickstarters.

Surely the Glorantha haters have at least that much commercial impact and can it send the way of The Game Formerly Known As RQ6, where they'll never have to fret about ducks again. That's awesome. Let MD see you vote with your wallets. Me, Runequest IS Glorantha so I'm in that $460K crowd, but that's just where I come from.

So, if you are asserting that Glorantha fans will buy anything with Glorantha stamped on it, would it not have made more sense to let TDM print Adventure in Glorantha? They could have collected all the royalties on that, plus royalties on RQ6 corebook sales increases.

Then Chaosium could have made this new edition, and all the Glorantha fans would have automatically opened their wallets again.

Also, you are a member of the $206,000 crowd, Not the $460,000 crowd. You can't establish the size of an audiences spending power by adding multiple products with redundant buyers together. Especially as you are spuriously asserting that all the GtG copies went to RQ2 fans, not a mix of various fans of various editions of RQ  and HeroQuest fans.

Quote from: One Horse Town;878372This thread is hilarious.

Quote from: richaje;878374It is surreal.

Quote from: baragei;878375Yes, it kind of is. In a very sad way.  
Oh well..

All I know is I am terribly invested in the ethical state of video game journalism.

(Oh shit, I crossed the streams... )

Quote from: Baulderstone;878611So, if you are asserting that Glorantha fans will buy anything with Glorantha stamped on it, would it not have made more sense to let TDM print Adventure in Glorantha? They could have collected all the royalties on that, plus royalties on RQ6 corebook sales increases.

Well, that starts with an "if" that isn't actually true, so I'm at a loss. Not privy to their business decisions, which may or may not be the right ones in any event. All I know is that the license was pulled and now legacy stock is kaput.

The time to lobby for AIG's survival was when the numbers triggered the renegotiation. Again, I wasn't there so who knows. Maybe people fought hard for the product on both sides.

Quote from: Baulderstone;878611Also, you are a member of the $206,000 crowd, Not the $460,000 crowd. You can't establish the size of an audiences spending power by adding multiple products with redundant buyers together. Especially as you are spuriously asserting that all the GtG copies went to RQ2 fans, not a mix of various fans of various editions of RQ  and HeroQuest fans.

Actually I'm in that $460K crowd, so thanks. Backed all three. But the original argument actually lumps "Glorantha and RQ2, which we both know is a game with native imbedded Glorantha support" against "Glorantha hating RQ fans who would sooner retch than pick up Chaosium RQ 2016."

Did a lot of Glorantha hating fans buy the Guide? Dubious but dumber things have happened. Maybe they got caught up in the grandeur of it all.

Did a lot of Heroquest and system-agnostic fans buy the Guide? Hell yes. Which is why it doesn't go in the "get your Glorantha out of my RQ" bucket.

EDIT: Oh, I get you now with the market size point. OK. So say for the argument that it's $30k and $206K. Where's the bigger market opportunity been established so far? If for some reason you feel that you have to choose, which do you cling to?

Quote from: econobus;878622EDIT: Oh, I get you now with the market size point. OK. So say for the argument that it's $30k and $206K. Where's the bigger market opportunity been established so far? If for some reason you feel that you have to choose, which do you cling to?

It's still not a particularly valid data point. The RQ6 Indiegogo campaign is for a fancy, limited edition copy of the rules in a slipcover. I don't own that. Nobody I play with owns that. I've never seen it in stores. I own the more common standard edition hardcover. I didn't pick it up for another year when buzz began to build around it. It just doesn't seem a useful measure for comparison.

Quote from: Baulderstone;878641It's still not a particularly valid data point. The RQ6 Indiegogo campaign is for a fancy, limited edition copy of the rules in a slipcover. I don't own that. Nobody I play with owns that. I've never seen it in stores. I own the more common standard edition hardcover. I didn't pick it up for another year when buzz began to build around it. It just doesn't seem a useful measure for comparison.

And he ignoring the fact that RQ6 is a platinum seller on DriveThru.

Quote from: estar;878642And he ignoring the fact that RQ6 is a platinum seller on DriveThru.

You're right. Because unless we have ongoing sales numbers for both sides of the brand, there's no comp. Feel free to keep slamming my numbers as long as you provide replacements -- otherwise, I go right back to the "echo chamber" hypothesis.

Let's actually luxuriate a moment and explore why this is such an apparently big deal from my POV.

I get to this thread and I wade through pages of people weighing in on a product announcement, "nope, not into Glorantha, thanks." That's great. We're all free to avoid buying things that don't interest us.

Then we get the conniption and claims that Chaosium Did a Bad Thing by leaving a population of diehard "love RQ but hate Glorantha, no thanks" fans out in the cold. This is intriguing. I had no idea such a population existed outside pockets here and there -- even in the Mongoose era, RQ and Glorantha were joined at the hip -- so I start wondering where all these people have been all my life.

In the absence of anyone pointing at established "love RQ but hate Glorantha, no thanks" communities, I start to wonder how much of a commercial drag this really is on Chaosium. To me, crowdfunding numbers on Glorantha and/or RQ2 products versus crowdfunding numbers on setting-neutral RQ6 are a pretty good proxy on relative market size. We could also look at community registration numbers and so on.

Are those numbers perfect? No. But they're numbers. Getting a gold star on a retail site doesn't cut it because there's no number attached. Positing ongoing retail sales on one side without getting the best possible comps on the other side doesn't cut it: Heroquest, for example, doesn't sell through distribution.

Now where's the giggle here other than my own perverse interest in industry metrics? When MD and DM had their talk, numbers were on the table. Numbers apparently triggered the conversation in the first place and then numbers contributed to the ultimate decision of going with the RQ2 chassis and native Glorantha. We don't have those decisions and weren't there, but trying to model those numbers might shed some light on those decisions.

And if the numbers didn't line up in the favor of the "no thanks" side of the argument, I have maintained throughout this thread that active support of "no thanks" publishers and products is a great solution. Don't settle for "platinum seller on RPGnow." Go for big kickstarter numbers. Prove to MD that they stabbed themselves in the wallet. Laugh in their face if you want to do that.

Then we can come back here and evaluate the business decisions. Maybe they missed a brilliant chance to outsource the brand OGL style. (God help us all.) Maybe they needed to move fast in the other direction for some external reason. Maybe the numbers just didn't line up. I like those conversations as long as they're backed up with more than anecdotes. Or if there's nothing but anecdotes, that's cool too, but it's a very different conversation.

Quote from: econobus;878643You're right. Because unless we have ongoing sales numbers for both sides of the brand, there's no comp. Feel free to keep slamming my numbers as long as you provide replacements -- otherwise, I go right back to the "echo chamber" hypothesis.

There are no replacements. We don't have sales figures. That doesn't make your flawed numbers any better.

And why do we have people keep calling this an echo? An echo chamber is when you have a discussion where everyone is in unquestioned agreement. That is not this thread.