So, it looks like Palladiumbooks will be reacquring the Robotech RPG license.  I'm actually very saddened by this news.

From what I've seen with Rifts "Ultimate" edition, I guess we can expect Palladium to reprint the same old stuff and slap a new cover on it.  Only this time, additional and extremely non-Robotech emulating rules like -10 to dodge will be added in.

So, the same broken mecha stats, the same lack of any real advancement in the game, the same lack of any genre emulation by the mechanics.  New, non-cinematic crap added in because Kevin S is always right.  Same old stuff.

Of course, it assumes the thing will actually see the light of day.  I can easily see it getting postponed for some hot Rifts supplement.  Or, if you're feeling charitable, suffering the same limbolike fate as Beyond the Supernatural 2nd edition where it will exist solely as a corebook sorely in need of planned but abandoned supplements to be remotely playable.

To tell the truth, I honestly can't think of a worse game company to acquire the license.

Mecha gaming really gets the shaft, doesn't it?

Palladiumbooks Fans:

"Having Fun without public consent since 1985!"

Really, I prefer my Robotech the Siembieda style. Keeps you grounded.

I honestly don't see the attraction of Palladium products.

Well, let me try to articulate my complaint, because I do realize that on some (if not all) levels, it may be irrational.

Back in 1986, when Palladiumbooks initially introduced the Robotech RPG, it was actually a pretty awesome thing.  Despite all the glaring errors, it was still an amazing resource for the American Macross (and later Southern Cross and Mospeada) fan.  Quite simply, at the time, it presented information and an attention to detail which was not available in the US with regards to the source material or in RPGs in general.  It isn't exaggeration to say that Palladium's hit with Robotech was what catapulted them to their success with Rifts and the prominence they enjoyed during the 90s.

But times have changed.  In 1986 Palladium may not have been cutting edge in production values and mechanics, but they were solidly mainstream.  In 2006, both of those characteristics of the company's products are positively antiquated.  To make matters worse, there seems to be a distinct lack of effort put forth on a great number of the company's products in the past several years.  Many of the major releases for the past 5 years have been nothing more than reprint compilations.  Art is heavily recycled.  Rifts Ultimate Edition, which should have been a landmark product to bring Rifts into a new decade of gaming, was nothing more than weak filler and text (complete with original errors) copied randomly from other books.

From what I've seen, I, quite frankly, don't feel Palladiumbooks has the industriousness or desire to crank out anything more than just a pale recycling of their old Robotech effort.  And, perhaps it may just be me, but Kevin Siembieda's comments tend to paint the image that he sees the whole thing as merely slapping new covers on the same old work rather than correcting errors, researching the material for greater accuracy, and offering a new and improved product.  To be perfectly clear, I think any effort by Palladiumbooks to make a new Robotech RPG will be an extremely lazy one.

The fact that there STILL isn't an errata PDF for Rifts Ultimate Edition a year after the release of that book doesn't instill me with a lot of faith that they intend to stand behind a product, or even produce anything solid (they seem to be refusing to even allow the fans to create a PDF of the already fan compiled errata and post it to the Palladiumbooks homepage).  In fact, the past few years have seemed like Palladiumbooks flailing about looking for a big seller and abandoning each game as it doesn't perform to expectations.  After the Bomb?  Nope, and abandoned.  Chaos Earth?  They stuck with it for two sourcebooks, but now it's been mostly abandoned.  Splicers?  Didn't make a big enough splash and now the sole planned sourcebook has been premanently put on the back burner.  Beyond the Supernatural second edition?  Stillborn without the supplements needed to make it a playable game.  Rifts Ultimate Edition?  It was clearly a quickly (and poorly) thrown together moneygrab.

Really, I think the extent of it is that Siembieda has tried all his other lines and failed.  He's looking for something he can reprint quickly and sell large numbers.  So, he sees that he still has those Robotech fans hanging around, and thinks "Those people are buying comics, DVDs, and $100 Veritech toys.  I need to get on that boat!"

I can't see this road as ending anywhere good.

(whew.  Long rant.  Hopefully it's semi-coherent.  I promise I won't do another like that for a while.)

Everything I have heard about KS is that he has an ego the size of Jupiter and thinks of himself as the Glitterboy of the RPG industry. It sucks because I really like RIFTS, but I think you could put it to almost any other game system and make a more playable product.

Well, if you could have had fun in 1986, why can´t you have the same fun now? Robotech is, well, not Rocket Science.

Still, your above points are true, KS is an off-kilter person to the general public. I`d love to see pre painted Robotech Minis. he has the fucking license to print money. Even the Battletechers would come on board, that would just be fucking awesome. Let KS print money disguised as pre painted Robotech figures!
That would so definitely rock.

Isn't the company itself just barely treading water, might go under if people don't buy his art book, yadda yadda.

Forgive me, been out of the loop.

Quote from: Phantom StrangerIsn't the company itself just barely treading water, might go under if people don't buy his art book, yadda yadda.

Forgive me, been out of the loop.

From what has been said (accidentally or intentionally), Palladiumbooks has not been doing well for about 2 years now.  The primary cited reason for this is that one of KS's long term best friends and employees, had been stealing from the company and stealing from KS's personal items.  (Although KS has also taken the opportunity to blame various freelancers for "failing him," and has also blamed it all on "a warehouse full of unsellable Bill Coffin books.")

After Rifts Ultimate Edition apparrently didn't perform to expectations, KS took the opportunity to announce these problems and give them a brand name, "The Crisis of Treachery."  Since then, he has been using "The Crisis of Treachery" as a sort of marketing gimmick.  Most notably, it has been an excuse to sell garbage art prints at $50, collectible mugs, and to just outright beg for money.

At this point, I'm amazed that KS hasn't trademarked "Crisis of Treachery."  It's clearly as important a brand name to his company's current operations as Rifts.

Quote from: GabrielMecha gaming really gets the shaft, doesn't it?

Ain't that the truth.  d20 Future wasn't all that hot, Guardians of Order have gone under... the prospects for mecha gaming don't really look that good.

I'm working on something, myself.  It's not everyone's cup of tea, but if you care to check it out (and my blogs on its design)

Gabriel:

As potentially one of the major contributors to a new RPG (already even have a manuscript sitting here, just waiting for Tom and the others at HG to decide where they'll fall this week on "what Big West items you can use in Robotech" before passing it to Palladium - Tom Bateman I respect - others in the company are PVC phallic stand-ins of the highest order), I must take issue with you.

First of all, your reference to "American Macross" shows you have a bias against Robotech in the first place, and have no business even posting in this, let alone starting a thread about it.

Second, you have a known, known to be BASELESS, bias against Kevin and Palladium.

"No errata for Rifts Ultimate Edition" WTF?? Try the freaking Palladium Message boards. There are stickied threads dealing with errors in it. Just because there isn't a cumulative errata sheet stuck into the book does NOT mean that the information isn't available. And, printing errata sheets that are subject to change before they even reach the FLGS is just plain 1980s - not to mention expensive, as you have to throw out the older errata sheets as soon as you print the new ones. Is there ANY major company that doesn't do errata as net-material-only anymore?

As for the company fund-raising events - the people buying them KNOW they are getting Kevin's (rather low-quality by modern standards) art. And, people have been ASKING for the other merchandise for YEARS (well, maybe not the comic book, but that was done as a bit of a lark).

As for Kevin's personality, I'm STILL waiting, after seeing the man at least one weekend a year for EIGHTEEN YEARS, hanging around the Palladium booth at cons, even playing in a game he RAN at a con, ANY evidence supporting ANY of the attacks on him. He does not (to quote another poster) have an "ego the size of Jupiter and thinks of himself as the Glitterboy of the RPG industry". He DOES see himself and his company as a family-owned maverick in a field dominated by one big corporation, and a couple of smaller companies that constantly risk overextending themselves with too much product.

His only "Ego" I've seen is when maternal sex toys like you telling him he HAS to sell D20 products to survive, and won't shut up when he tells you it's his company, and it's his CHOICE to not jeopardize his intellectual rights by using someone else's system (and, the OGL is well and good, but it won't protect you from the legal department of Hasbro if they try a property grab - especially with that clause that the OGL can be altered at any time - as Tri-Tac Games about a small company's legal chances are if a megacorp steals their intellectual property (in Rich's case, Universal - which just celebrated the 200th episode of the TV series based on the movie that ripped off Fringeworthy)).

Wow!

Quote from: Basara 549First of all, your reference to "American Macross" shows you have a bias against Robotech in the first place, and have no business even posting in this, let alone starting a thread about it.

Second, you have a known, known to be BASELESS, bias against Kevin and Palladium.

Well, the second item there indicates you have a familiarity with my posts in other areas.  And, while I'm willing to concede that I might have some irrational bias, I do think I support quite a few of my issues with the company with tangible bits.

But, it leads me back to your first statement.  I have a "bias against Robotech?"  No sir, on that point you are blowing stuff out your ass with no basis whatsoever.  I used the phrase "it was still an amazing resource for the American Macross" because it was.  It even says it right there on the book: "Book One Macross."  If you know anything about my posts at all, you know that I'm probably one of the biggest and longest term fans of Robotech there is.  Quite frankly, your attitude that there is a grand difference between the two seems to state to me your own bias.  You remind me of another Basara I encountered years ago who decided to flame me for months because I called a YF-19 a "Veritech."

Quote"No errata for Rifts Ultimate Edition" WTF?? Try the freaking Palladium Message boards. There are stickied threads dealing with errors in it. Just because there isn't a cumulative errata sheet stuck into the book does NOT mean that the information isn't available. And, printing errata sheets that are subject to change before they even reach the FLGS is just plain 1980s - not to mention expensive, as you have to throw out the older errata sheets as soon as you print the new ones. Is there ANY major company that doesn't do errata as net-material-only anymore?

First off, the errata which is on the Palladium Message Boards has been compiled completely by fans.  Palladiumbooks reps have taken NO effort whatsoever to help in the compilation process in the whole YEAR that the errata has existed.  Even Decipher, a company which is notorious for not supporting their RPGs at all, had clear errata on their site by 6 months after the release of the books.  Thus, my point that Palladium has no interest in supporting its products.  

Next, you make some strange comment about how I'm allegedly expecting Palladiumbooks to print some kind of physical errata product.  The only thing I can say is that such a belief is probably borne of your own realization that they are so sloppy with their own products as to require a retailer driven apology program (much like what AEG did several years ago with the 7th Sea Players Handbook and free errata book).  But, in reality, I made no such demand for a printed product.  Although I didn't make it clear, even a PDF on their site covering the errata in the books would be nice.  Incidentally, the fans volunteered to compile such a thing if someone at Palladiumbooks would at least go over it and make sure it was correct.  The fans were given the cold shoulder.

QuoteHis only "Ego" I've seen is when maternal sex toys like you telling him he HAS to sell D20 products to survive, and won't shut up when he tells you it's his company, and it's his CHOICE to not jeopardize his intellectual rights by using someone else's system (and, the OGL is well and good, but it won't protect you from the legal department of Hasbro if they try a property grab - especially with that clause that the OGL can be altered at any time - as Tri-Tac Games about a small company's legal chances are if a megacorp steals their intellectual property (in Rich's case, Universal - which just celebrated the 200th episode of the TV series based on the movie that ripped off Fringeworthy)).

Well, since you called me a name, I guess I'd be free and clear to call you one too.  But I won't.  I feel this paragraph speaks enough for itself.

As for KS's ego, he always presents himself as the poor betrayed lamb.  He never admits any wrongdoing (unless he blames a lot of other people for causing the problem).  He characterizes the fans of his game as "chest thumping monkeys".  And anyone who has any criticism of him whatsoever is an "enemy of Palladium."  I'd say that definitely qualifies as an ego.  In fact, his presentation of himself as perfect, the sole possessor of secret truths of the RPG biz, his practice of always routing contact with him through AlexM, MaryannS, or some other rep, his whipping of his fans into an "us versus them" mentality...  It all really seems like a cult if you look at it.

Next, I never once in my post suggested that Palladium has to sell d20 products to survive.  Nor did I suggest that Robotech be rewritten as d20.  I have, in the past, stated that I think it would be nice if Palladium would do Rifts d20, or a similar project.  But, I've also been VERY supportive of the core Palladium system, and have long campaigned for it to be updated, not discarded for another system.

You profess to know about my posting history.  I don't believe I have EVER stated that Palladium should convert Robotech to d20.  In fact, I'm pretty certain that I've been against that at every mention of such a thing.

I think you've shown yourself to be pretty baseless in your views.

As for your manuscript, despite taking issue with everything else which went from your fingers to your keyboard in the previous post, I do wish you the best.

@Basara: I really like RIfts and the old Robotech stuff. Please tell Kevin he shall make pre painted robotech minis! He loves toys himself, so it should be perfectly reasonable thing to consider. Please, I want them big-time.

Quote from: RoudiAin't that the truth.  d20 Future wasn't all that hot, Guardians of Order have gone under... the prospects for mecha gaming don't really look that good.

I'm working on something, myself.  It's not everyone's cup of tea, but if you care to check it out (and my blogs on its design)

It looks interesting.  Of course, I can't say whether it's to my preferences without knowing how you plan to implement those stats your proto-contruction system generates.  It does look very inspired by d20 Future, which I didn't find all that hot either.

Personally, I feel it's all in the implemenation.

The traditional d20 implementation doesn't feel right to me because it's all about static ACs based on how tough your armor plate is and Hit Point depletion.  It just doesn't feel like pilot skill really comes into it.  (That Mecha Dodge feat with it's +1 AC bonus doesn't really make much difference.)

Mekton has always felt right to me because of it's contested combat rolls which are directly related to the applicable skills.  So, mecha combat feels more like a duel, and the pilot's ability matters as much as what armor plate and how many HPs the suit has.

Palladium shares some of Mekton's benefits.  Because it is also based more on a system of simple HP depletion for the mecha, it plays a bit quicker sometimes.  But it has other flaws, most notably that pilot skill has no effect on combat (many mecha pilots in Rifts don't even have the pilot skill).  Another is the Palladium attitude that if you want a Robotech feel in a Robotech RPG, that you're just going to have to house-rule it in (4 or more missiles undodgeable is a popular example of that phenomenon).

I also think that just about any mecha game needs to deal with the "mook" issue.  You see it all the time in Robotech.  Scott is fighting Corg, Alpha versus Royal Command Battloid.  Corg hits Scott's Alpha with a plasma disc.  Scott's mech is damaged, but keeps on going.  Either Scott or Corg temporarily withdraw.

Then half a dozen unnamed Alpha pilots show up to help Scott.  Corg says "How amusing" and proceeds to kill each and every one of them with a single shot each.  Of course, in the game, each of those Alphas has 300 MDC and Corg's gun can only do a maximum of 120 MDC on a critical hit.  So, there's no way by the rules that scene can happen.

By the same token, Scott's fighter doesn't go BOOM every time he gets hit.  In fact, Alphas seem pretty damn tough when Scott is sitting in them.

The way I see it, is that any mecha game (especially Robotech) would have to have some kind of rule to cover the fact that Scott's Alpha is going to be tougher when he's sitting in it than the Alpha of Ensign Redshirt.

BTW, that other Basara wasn't me (thank God). Sorry for the cheap shot, but I'm sick of the Same old BS getting regurgitated by people against Kevin, that has gotten to the level of Urban Legend after originating from people with a known reason to be biased (Coffin, for example). I still even hear the "FASA lawsuit" and "WotC lawsuit" BS occasionally treated as FACT (when persons I know who worked for Wizards, FASA and Ral Partha in that period have confirmed KS's statements that the net stories are total fabrications).

And, I must be confusing you with another Gabriel elsewhere, on your D20 stance (there's probably only a dozen Basaras out there, most outside Macross fandom taking their name from the unrelated manga - but Gabriel is a LOT more common - A Gabriel even ran the Palladium ML for a period)

Every time I've played or seen Mekton Zeta played (I even owned the books, and helped someone attempt to make the Macross Plus mecha in Mekton Rules), where players had any input on design & modification, they went out of their way to try to "break the system". In order to fit SO many different mecha genre into one system, there are so many variant rules (especially with the Zeta Plus book), that mecha design is a minefield of potentially conflicting rules that you about have to play, then wait for the system to get broken the the GM can rule WHICH rule sets to eliminate that he forgot to outlaw before - while making sure he isn't crippling his own designs in the process. Simple character interaction and combat can be great - but once the mech design rules come in, the conflict changes to between GM and player, and I saw it come to blows in one case.

Ironically, the REALLY outspoken critics of the Palladium Robotech INSIST the PC (and people like Bernard's) mecha HAVE to be reduced down to redshirt levels.

There has to be a balance between extremes. One interesting "out" for this is a recent tidbit from Japanese Macross OSM (Kawamori is about as bad for retcons as HG - shame they don't get along), that the reason for the VF-1 toughness in relation to the Destroids might be an expensive armor that is relatively weak, but strengthened by an electrical charge passing through it aligning the molecules into a more rigid structure (which isn't all that far-fetched - look how an electrical charge causes iron to align in an electromagnet - and research has been done on this). If the armor loses power to that system, then it goes to the much weaker state. As the RDF tech is experimental in 2009, one could see how minor damage or simple equipment failures in flight might cause the "redshirt" phenomena in Macross (OS and Robotech versions). For Robotech Invid-era stuff, this might make the difference why the group's well-maintained Cyclones and larger mecha (having their own personal tech) were more survivable, than their motor-pooled counterparts (not met a (commercial) motor pool behind the lines yet that didn't cut corners on maintenance - in real life! - and the war stories from my Gulf War I vet friends who worked in motor pools involved having to deal with peacetime shortcuts once they got to the sandbox).

Lastly, there was an interesting Demo at Gen Con this year.

Someone was running a prototype game they plan to submit to HG for licensing. It was an Invid War Miniatures game, with prototype figures (players got to keep them, after paying over $10 to play), using a streamlined version of the old Mecha! game mini rules.

I just wish HG wasn't so insistant on keeping the SDF-3 departure date (when all series evidence, and all material they told Daley/Luceno(Jack McKinney), Comico and Palladium initially, indicated a departure no later than 2016), then using it to justify their current 2044 date for Reflex Point (which is also contra-indicated by dialogue) The most likely year would be 2035-2038.

They then use a circular argument to say that their 2044 date shows that the SDF-3 left in the 2020s. On top of it, with Gloval wanting to start colonies, in the last few episodes of the Macross arc, and transport fleet and pirates referred to in SC (pirates are raiders of commercial traffic, so there have to be civilians out in colonies by that time), the Mars Division and later troops don't HAVE to have anything to do with the SDF-3, rendering the whole supporting argument for a 2044 date moot.

Worse, they appear, from the Shadow Chronicles previews, are trying to make that nutjob in charge of the SDF-4 in orbit into a herioc character, when it's apparent from closely watching the episodes, he was "going Ahab" on the Invid, and that "Hunter's Orders" were either his invention, or wildly interpreted incorrectly (from the phrasing, and the fact that the politicians were pulling the strings in the first two episodes, they might be "Hunter's Orders" only in that they were given TO Hunter from the Politicians trying to armchair general from Tyrol). The REF was WINNING (and the Invid about to depart, peacefully) when he declared that they had lost, and ordered the Neutron-S missile launch. "From Hell's heart I stab at thee!", Indeed...

There was also talk of rewriting the events of the last episodes to make the Invid not leaving due to reason, but because of ANOTHER non-human threat coming. Effectively, making the whole point of the self-discoveries for all the principals involved, from Scott to the Regiss herself, totally nonsensical.

Who does a new RPG pales in comparison to the damage the current HG is doing to the franchise.

Quote from: GabrielBut it has other flaws, most notably that pilot skill has no effect on combat (many mecha pilots in Rifts don't even have the pilot skill).  Another is the Palladium attitude that if you want a Robotech feel in a Robotech RPG, that you're just going to have to house-rule it in (4 or more missiles undodgeable is a popular example of that phenomenon).

Huh?

ALL mecha pilot OCCs in Rifts have to have the piloting skill. Heck, even Veritech Pilots, while they get Cyclone combat, actually have to take the Cyclone Piloting skill separately, according to the old FAQ. The RPA pilot OCC from original Rifts didn't have the piloting skill listed due to a missing line of text - as the pilot could need to take PA Piloting, Robot piloting or both, depending on their mission orientation. The New Versions (separates the PA, Robot Vehicle and Coalition RPA into distinct OCCs) in Ultimate Rifts finally fixes this in print.

On the other hand, I ignore the old FAQ when it talks about the pilot's PP and other bonuses not applying to non-melee combat. The original version of the RPG, and even the way Kevin RAN a Robotech session at a con in 1988, indicates that the bonuses DO apply (besides, without P.P. factoriing in, what is the difference between a Max Sterling and a Inspector Clouseau, in the cockpit?). And, the tilt-dodge under the piloting skills description (as opposed to dodges from the mecha combat skill) does not make any reference to numbers of missiles, so I've always allowed any number of missiles to be dodged with a tilt-dodge (of course, that move is a LOT more risky). After all, it's NOT the same mechanics.

When it comes down to it, errata and FAQs can be a pain in the arse when the person writing them isn't 100% up on the RPG. A FAQ section in 1991 contradicted the "always been this way" references to Roll with impact using an attack, and number of attacks per round from FAQs 10 years later.