QuoteIts as much a Christian Faith as the Jehovah's Witnesses are.  

All trinitarian churches would beg to differ. JWs are a looney christian sect.
LDS are a new religion. Go ask the pope or any metropolit or any evangelic bishop. Ask the copts.

Alas, you can even ask some Mormons, there´s quite a lot who don´t see themselves as Christians too.

For your family ties: What does that prove?
Exact, nothing.

Quote from: SettembriniThe people thinking LDS is a christian faith should review the principles upon which this faith is built.

It´s founder took/ is bound to take god´s place, literally.
He´s "more" than Jesus :eek:

You know, I'm willing to laugh off a lot of anti-mormonism due to the gross levels of misinformation, bile and general ignorance, but that's absolute bullshit.  There is one passage in The Doctrine and Covenants that Joseph Smith at number two right after Jesus.  And it's a pretty flowery heap of wordage.

...

Can't we all just get along and talk about, uh, atomosaurs?

QuoteCan't we all just get along and talk about, uh, atomosaurs?

Holy crap, here comes one now!

GOZER: The choice is made! The Atomosaur has come!
PETER: Whoa! Whoa! Nobody choosed anything! Did you choose anything?
EGON: No!
PETER: Did you?
WINSTON: My mind's totally blank!
PETER: I didn't choose anything!

[PETER, EGON and WINSTON stare at RAY]

RAY: (trembling) I couldn't help it. It just popped in there!
PETER: What? What just popped in there?
RAY: I - I tried to think -
WINSTON: What is it? What did you do, Ray? Aw shit!
RAY: (solemnly) It's the Protestant-Mormon Marshmallow Man.

[Outside Shandor Building Protestant-Mormon Marshmallow Man stomps cars as people run and scream in terror.]

RAY: "Protestant" just sounds more polite and shorter than "those myriad sects formed by North American ex-colonists in the nineteenth century which include anything from far out Calvinism to mormonism to dancing with snakes, all of which from across the Atlantic, from the coasts, but I'm sure nowadays also from within the heartland itself, look odd and archaic."

PETER: Nice thinking, Ray.

Hell with it. Let's just change the setting to the 40K universe and play Inquisitors.

Worse comes to worse, you can always declare Exterminatus on the world. :hehe:

I don´t care what you think.
I don´t care personally about the mormons, they are something so far away, as to be like RPG background fluff.

I just stated the official take on mormonism being a christian sect or not. And it is not, according to the trinitarian churches, and there´s a lot of reason behind that. Hell, a mormon baptism isn´t even accepted by them.

Whereas JW are still seen as a christian sect.
That´s fact.

If your opinion differs, so be it, but church doctrines are the only thing that count here.

Also look here:
http://www.irr.org/mit/Is-Mormonism-Christian.html

Quote from: droogYes, you can run a solo game with the Winter Phase like with the trade tables etc in Traveller. It's the way both tie you into a given framework that's beautiful.

About Dogs, I don't know exactly what's in the book, but I do know from forum discussion that the author's intent is that the Faith is infinitely foldable, spindlable and manipulable by the players. If you want to declare polygamy to be False Doctrine, so mote it be.

Except that the setting has demons, when I played it there were demons involved in certain events.  It's hard to argue that something is capable of reinterpretation in moral terms if a demon is possessing someone and forcing them to do it as happened in our game.

None of the posts are mentioning the demons, they matter.

Yes, you set the supernatural dial, if you set it to anything other than no supernatural though then the game includes as a matter of fact within the game universe demons.  Demons are attracted by sin as defined within the game and manifest as real forces of evil.

In other words, the game includes demons in setting which plainly mark certain things as objectively morally wrong.  In the game I played the female NPC who was undermining patriarchy in her community was inspired to do so by demons, it's bloody hard once you learn that to argue that undermining patriarchy is morally ok and part of the faith.

Also, the faith is pretty clearly detailed, if you say for example that women can lead communities you are going flatly against the faith as described in the setting material.  

So it really isn't as player defined a morality as people say, the in-game details of the faith and the existence of demons attracted by sin rather defeat that concept.

Quote from: Jeffrey StraszheimRegarding morality in Dogs, consider this: the rules tell you what the elders of the faith teach, frex that polygamy is OK.  The rules don't tell you, and will never tell you, and the GM may not dictate, what God actually believes.  If your dog decides that polygamy is false doctrine, then play it out in the game.  Local stewards will resist him; other dogs will get involved; the elders will get involved.   Sooner or later, bullets will fly.  Perhaps the faith will change, probably it will not.  Never will the GM say, "Actually, you were wrong, the King of Life approves of polygamy."

It is really this simple.  Get it?

Except that in my experience if the Prophets and Elders of the faith say something is true, then PCs are very unlikely to disagree with it - one or two might, but the group overall will tend to toe the line.

Actually, since the Prophets and Elders technically have stewardship over the entire Faith, including the Dogs, you could make an argument that you should never bring them "on camera" in the course of a Dogs game, because by doing so you as GM are essentially saying "Hey, listen to these guys, they know what they are talking about".

Quote from: MarcoSo there is no part of the game that requires the enforcing of a static doctrine--the Dogs always get to decide ultimately. They can "break from the faith" all they want and if they hang together on it, they'll win in doing so.

Yes, but my argument is that they are LESS LIKELY TO WANT TO DO SO, because there's this little voice in their back of the head saying "You know, as presented in the book the Faith is like this..."

Quote from: David RWarthur maybe I'm missing something but exactly where in the rule book do you get that the players are not the sole arbiter of morality in the game?

The main rulebook gives details of the Faith which includes moral judgements about sexual morality, the place of men and women in the world, stewardship and so forth. The players are entirely free to contradict the rulebook, of course... but then they are contradicting the moral statements made in the rulebook.

Essentially, the rulebook presents a moral outlook on the world against which the actions of players may be judged by an outside observer. For the players to be the sole arbiters of morality, there can't be an external benchmark against which their actions can be measured.

Quote from: Jeffrey StraszheimNot in my experience.  In my games the players tended to adopt the received moral code with great gusto and left a swath of bodies behind them.

Same here, that's hell of fun.

QuoteI think you're over analyzing it.

You would have a point if the rulebook never mentioned morality, but the entire game is presented in moral terms.

New theory: games shouldn't deal with matters of morality in any way, shape or form. It's not the right forum for them: you can't have a serious discussion about morality if one individual (the GM) has way more power than everyone else to define the situation being discussed.

Quote from: droogSo in your example it's "Okay, you know all about the pastor sleeping with the miller's daughter (because I, the GM, have taken care that you do). Now, who's innocent and who's guilty? Remember, your decisions count, and just in case, you have a big gun."

Aha! But at this point, you the GM have made a moral judgement that someone is guilty and that the Dogs have the responsibility to choose who.

Quote from: BalbinusNone of the posts are mentioning the demons, they matter.

Yes, you set the supernatural dial, if you set it to anything other than no supernatural though then the game includes as a matter of fact within the game universe demons.  Demons are attracted by sin as defined within the game and manifest as real forces of evil.

In other words, the game includes demons in setting which plainly mark certain things as objectively morally wrong.  In the game I played the female NPC who was undermining patriarchy in her community was inspired to do so by demons, it's bloody hard once you learn that to argue that undermining patriarchy is morally ok and part of the faith.

Also, the faith is pretty clearly detailed, if you say for example that women can lead communities you are going flatly against the faith as described in the setting material.  

So it really isn't as player defined a morality as people say, the in-game details of the faith and the existence of demons attracted by sin rather defeat that concept.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here.

Quote from: Vincent BakerHere's the deal with sin and demons. This is the real deal with sin and demons in Dogs; I'm lifting up the game's skirts here.

Pretend there's no supernatural causality at all. People make decisions and there are consequences, wholly material, wholly materialistic. God doesn't exist, demons don't, magic doesn't, immortal souls don't (although of course a person still has a soul, as in "I feel it in my soul" and "it's good for my soul"). Ceremony is wholly psychological, as is demonic possession.

Okay, so what's sin? Sin is when, in response to some unremedied injustice, you do something destructive to your community. "Sin," that is, socially destructive behavior, destabilizes your community. All the lines of love, friendship and blood that hold your community together come under stress, because now someone's acting against them instead of along them.

Here's how I put it once before: it's not a sin because God forbids it. God forbids it because it's a sin.

You'll notice that the sins in the game are, accordingly, extremely practical. In Dogs it's not a sin to jerk off, for instance, and contra the real-world traditions of my people - in Dogs, every single sin involves at least one other person.

That's sin, what're the demons? They're just plain bad luck. They're the stresses on a community that come about through nobody's action, nobody's fault, just the hazards of trying to make a life in the real world. The well goes dry, the flood rises, locusts swarm, somebody falls off a horse or tries to clean a loaded gun. Shit happens, that's all.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsThere are no "demons" or "sins" when you play Dogs.

Those are terms people use in the game-world, and they think in those terms, yes. You can even dramatize those perceptions and attitudes all you want, by having magic flare up visibly and demons cackle and materialize.

But those are just dramatizations.

There is no in-game-world objective reality to which you must conform. There is no in-game-world morality. There is no in-game-world religious faith that is "true" in that game-world. When the Book that the Dogs carry says something in it (and who knows if it does, let's say it does) about how homosexuality is wrongly wrong ... well ...

... it's still up to the Dogs. It's their call, in that town, and in the face of this particular situation. You see? It's still up to the Dogs, and you play the Dogs' judgment.