Finally a thread that makes me feel better about the hobby diminishing!!

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;944288Having the majority of players who show up being white males doesn't mean that everyone else is too scared to show up to cons.

The Latino chicks at Slayer shows (who are rarely taller than 5'4") must be the bravest fuckers on the planet. Maybe the second bravest, next to the equally short, but usually thinner Asian chicks at the Whitechapel shows. A quarter of the pit at Slipknot last fall had vaginas and dark skin.

All that achieved with ZERO inclusivity!

Millions of people who don't look like me have the bravery to do WTF they want for fun without hesitation or fear, but RPGs have to dig around for lawncrappers with different skin colors or junk in their shorts.

How noble of us to go from catpissmen to catpissgenderfluid!!

Unfuckingbelievable.

Quote from: trechriron;944284We know that potential players from these demographics are intimidated or worried about participation because THEY TOLD US. You may want to dismiss these pleas, but I'm not going to.

I can't imagine how we've gotten to the point of recruiting people into the hobby from the gutter of emotional invalids.

Did the con make sure to have inclusive food vendors so the invalids weren't too afraid to eat?

Quote from: CRKrueger;944294

• How did you know whether players were LBGTQ or not?

The con assigned them pink triangles?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;944365If there is anyone, in the world, ever, that has been looking to be offended, it is white straight dudes who think "being inclusive" is an attack on their white straight dudeness.

It's nigh impossible to offend me.

I just find White Knighting to be grotesque disrespect.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but somehow if women and minorities can vote, go to any college, start thriving businesses, achieve political offices, and go and do WTF they imagine and desire, then it *MAY BE POSSIBLE* they can even engage in a geeky hobby without us honkies strapping a diaper to their asses.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944371I'm sure that Spinachcat wishes the hundred cons he runs stuff at did that, so he could welcome new gamers for the first time in his 20-year RPG convention career.

Every con is just rape, rape, roll initiative, rape, rape, hand out XP.

Who the fuck has time to welcome new gamers?

RPG con rape quotas = new White Man's Burden

Quote from: trechriron;9443964) Many people bought buttons that identified their sexual preference or sympathies (mine was Hetero Ally). Also, there are gender pronoun preference ribbons.

Oh.for.fucks.sake.

That's not a game con.  That's a virtue signalling circle jerk.

Quote from: trechriron;944396No one had to "self-identify" but based on buttons/ribbons, there were many more LBGTQ people at the con than I have seen at other cons I have attended over the years.

How liberal of them not to force pink triangles on people!

We've always had LOTS of LGBT gamers.

Quote from: trechriron;944396It's not just "don't be a dick", it's also "think of the variety of people out there and make/run/play games with the idea of not pushing people not-like you away from the table with your behavior or content."

Louis Farrakhan promised us there were UFOs coming to kill white people.

Louie!!! Call down the deathrays before more fucking honkies start thinking black people can't play Settlers of Catan without an inclusivity mission statement!!

Quote from: trechriron;943515So, what cons do you really like for tabletop (especially RPGs)...

I haven't really done much tabletop Rpging at cons, whether tabletop was the focus or it was an add-on. I've been to Dragonflight twice, and Gencon once (16 years ago), but I haven't participated in more than a couple of demos for new Rpgs. I was more interested in browsing dealer rooms, or going to special events.

To be honest, I've never found a lot of appeal in tabletop conventions, even those close to home. I've always played in private groups; have never really been interested in being part of a "community"; or sought out birds of a similar feather. I don't think I'd get a lot of enjoyment participating in convention gaming. Not because of any exclusivity-concerns - but because I think I'd run into the most annoying, jaded, cynical, hard-core gamers, regardless of their sexual identity/gender/preferences.

Quote..what cons do you avoid because the gaming is a "miss"?

I've been to Pax (West) a few times, with friends, in 2013 and 2014. Pretty uninspiring when it comes to Rpg gaming, unless you want to get in a few games of Pathfinder or perhaps some 5e. Not my thing at all.

Quote from: trechriron;944396Yes and yes. I believe that there are more non-white males and females in general out there that would like to participate in the hobby.

To be more accurate the issue here isn't about participating in the hobby, the issues here are about participating in the hobby's social scene surrounding conventions, blogging, game stores, LARPS, etc.

IN 2017, the vast majority of tabletop roleplaying occurs in small social tight knit groups playing in people's homes. The hobby's social scene is only engaged by a minority of those who play.

Circa 1990, the local game store owner (or employees) being a bunch of racist and/or sexist jackassess would be a major issue for anybody non-white, female, or of a different orientation trying to participate in the hobby itself. Undoubtedly folks felt there were better uses for their time than trying to deal with that to buy a copy of the latest game. It could even afflict a mass market retailer like Barnes and Nobles.

However it now 2016 with Amazon, and dozens of other retail sites where everybody hiding behind semi-anonymous IDs. The issue of prejudice in terms buying the materials to play has been greatly diminished. We don't know at this point the exact makeup of who plays tabletop but if a non-traditional groups is playing they have to deal with a lot less bullshit than before.

With that being said, I am in agreement that in general we have to be proactive about being inclusive when it comes to the  hobby's social scene. There  will be disagreement how to accomplishment this but again in 2017 trying and supporting different approach is a lot more doable than in the past.

I dunno about the details but I still feel a few points are being overlooked by one side or the other:

• Local cultures vary. In the Bay Area, I expect a diverse crowd and I expect the diverse crowd (so to speak) is already confident they'll fit in. Other places, maybe not. Can't say about Seattle, but being practically Canadians they may automatically assume something is wrong if they don't have many representatives of "marginalized" groups among their attendees, even if that's just a reflection of local demographics.
• The proof is in the pudding. Or as someone said above, "in practice".
• In particular if you can go there as a cis-gendered heterosexual person of non-color and also feel comfortable and accepted, who gives a crap what the mission statement could imply if you read it in the tone of a militant Tumblrina?
• On the other hand the badges and ribbons are goofy and if not wearing one puts a target on you, screw that. I'll privately roll eyes and not attend next time should it be more than I can handle.
• Same if there are panels and events that cheerlead hatred and outrage.

I am not "white-knighting" anything. I am not of the belief that people need to be coddled, or "helped up", or any of that crap. I don't believe people like me are not capable.

I simply appreciated the mission, and I believe it helped bring people out who might otherwise not come. It's also nice because when interacting with people they get to see that I'm not the "evil white fatbeard troll" they might have thought me to be. Again, I'm sorry this idea makes people so angry. I know what it's like to get angry (I wanted to set the world on fire when DTRPG started pitching people off the ship because they weren't in the cool kids club...). Just know that I would just as happily have any one of you RPG enthusiasts here at theRPGsite at my table. Even the ones that think I'm a bleeding-heart lefty (or want to grab me by the collars and scream "what's wrong with you!!!!").

Quote from: Arminius;944468I dunno about the details but I still feel a few points are being overlooked by one side or the other:

• Local cultures vary. In the Bay Area, I expect a diverse crowd and I expect the diverse crowd (so to speak) is already confident they'll fit in. Other places, maybe not. Can't say about Seattle, but being practically Canadians they may automatically assume something is wrong if they don't have many representatives of "marginalized" groups among their attendees, even if that's just a reflection of local demographics.
• The proof is in the pudding. Or as someone said above, "in practice".
• In particular if you can go there as a cis-gendered heterosexual person of non-color and also feel comfortable and accepted, who gives a crap what the mission statement could imply if you read it in the tone of a militant Tumblrina?
• On the other hand the badges and ribbons are goofy and if not wearing one puts a target on you, screw that. I'll privately roll eyes and not attend next time should it be more than I can handle.
• Same if there are panels and events that cheerlead hatred and outrage.

Well put.

Quote from: Spinachcat;944417The Latino chicks at Slayer shows (who are rarely taller than 5'4") must be the bravest fuckers on the planet. Maybe the second bravest, next to the equally short, but usually thinner Asian chicks at the Whitechapel shows. A quarter of the pit at Slipknot last fall had vaginas and dark skin.

All that achieved with ZERO inclusivity!

Poor comparison.

I'm sure you know several members of Slayer are latino and metal in general in the US has a strong latino contingent, in no little part due to many latino members in the bands and the popularity of metal in South America and the many death metal, etc bands from there.

Quote from: Arminius;944468I dunno about the details but I still feel a few points are being overlooked by one side or the other:

• Local cultures vary. In the Bay Area, I expect a diverse crowd and I expect the diverse crowd (so to speak) is already confident they'll fit in. Other places, maybe not. Can't say about Seattle, but being practically Canadians they may automatically assume something is wrong if they don't have many representatives of "marginalized" groups among their attendees, even if that's just a reflection of local demographics.

1/4 people in Seattle are POC so your demographics argument doesn't stand up.

It's not an argument...but I'll concede the fact. If anything it reinforces the larger point.

Quote from: trechriron;944284Now, I asked twice about what cons you like and why, and instead we get angry posters pissing the screen. Cool. But wouldn't just telling us about your con be more convincing? And maybe even fun?

I like the ones where the dancing houris with kohl blacked eyes gyrate their hips in a hypnotic dervish while the bardiches circles the room serving honeyed wine, hashished baklavah, and dates glazed in opium... and then sometimes we game.

I dunno, pretty much all the cons I went to sucked ass, and I got in free because I had to work the booth.

What would make for a better Con experience?

*cheaper entrance (besides "run something to enter for free")
*concession support variety.
*an ambient/lounge room (even w/ a bot DJ playlist)
*darkness, density, danger -- y'know, something to make it feel worth more than a glorified gamer garage gathering)
*beer fountain
*an unconsentual convention-wide Changeling the Dreaming LARP, disrupting anything at will
*whirling dervish houris & bardiche servers (may settle for booty bouncers and emo baristas)
*a safe space diversity affirmation with armbanded religious enforcers (nah, just kidding! that's too far...)

Quote from: K Peterson;944453To be honest, I've never found a lot of appeal in tabletop conventions, even those close to home. I've always played in private groups; have never really been interested in being part of a "community"; or sought out birds of a similar feather. I don't think I'd get a lot of enjoyment participating in convention gaming. Not because of any exclusivity-concerns - but because I think I'd run into the most annoying, jaded, cynical, hard-core gamers, regardless of their sexual identity/gender/preferences.

I can't find the appeal, either. And it has nothing to do with "birds of a feather" because I gladly butterfly any scene. In fact, I celebrate finding the most jaded, cynical, hard-core gamers because they have a scintilla of resonance to my jaded cynical self.

I don't get cons, outside of catching up with out-of-towner gamers and updating my rolodex (dated!) the next time I'm in their area. Beyond networking, kvetching, and maybe a classic pick-up game, there's little I have enjoyed about cons. (Granted I only got a chance to "enjoy them" after work, so maybe the evening to night set are absolute bores. At least my room/table hopping leaned that way...)

Several good suggestions there regarding ambience and lighting. Someone to welcome and direct people, or just some friendly people at an info booth would also help. The only cons I attended were depressing affairs for much the same reason. Thinking of attending a local con in March but I fear a repeat of the disorganized clumps of people wandering an air hangar with flood lights experience.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944133I haven't heard yet what you specifically thought what difference that made practically from the cons you attended before and after it, or any other con which did not declare inclusivity as a focus.

It doesn't. That's the point. Same shit goes down at every con I've ever gone to. Sure some are better than others, but that's largely due to the mix of attendees rather than any policies. And I've encountered all sorts of folks at Dexposure events, from the Alt-Right to the Ctrl-Left, all interacting without issue.

I'm starting to see more drama bleed from the internet to all walks of life however, which concerns me greatly. People are starting to live in a fantasy world based completely on their own subjective experiences, and that sort of thinking is just ripe for tribalism and tyranny.

Quote from: jeff37923;944134But they do. They want me to attend their gaming convention so that it can virtue signal how inclusive they are. As long as I behave in the way that they demand because since I am a white male I am expected to be a racist xenophobe homophobe exclusivity minded rapist.

***

Only when we are not being racist xenophobe homophobe exclusivity minded rapists. Otherwise, we do not get fed and are locked up in the coop.

I don't know what to tell you other than it's not true.

Quote from: Voros;944223You claimed that you were somehow not welcome as a white male even though none of these cons made a statement excluding white males or even addressing white males. Somehow a statement of everyone being welcome is read as excluding you. How is that not overly defensive, even paranoid?

I'm deeply paranoid about being ostracized and losing friends, and my past is full of occasions to justify that concern. However I've never been excluded because people thought I was a white male. Even rpg.net's rabid social justice criteria bans people on the basis of wrongthink rather than race.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;944276Any [STRIKE]org[/STRIKE] society [STRIKE]with Codes of Conduct[/STRIKE] without Rule of Law or their memetic kin aren't worthy of your time or your money.

Fixed your spelling.

Quote from: trechriron;944284In my opinion, non-white males, LBGTQ, and female players are under-represented in our hobby. Even here in sunny leftsville Seattle, the majority of the players that show up to play in my games are white males. I honestly don't care anymore about the why's and wherefore's. I'm not BLAMING anyone.

But others are blaming white males for keeping them out of the hobby, so while the reactions here may be overstated they're not unwarranted. And while I disagree with that assessment, I can't challenge it without being accused of gaslighting and questioning lived experiences, so we never get to the point where we can address the actual source of the problem.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;944288Having the majority of players who show up being white males doesn't mean that everyone else is too scared to show up to cons.  It's representative of the gaming populace in Seattle.

Yeah. People so rarely consider demographics in these matters.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944371BTW, not directed at Arminius, but this is from the original OrcaCon Kickstarter...

Quote from: OrcaCon KickstarterWe feel it's so important to create an environment that's different from other game conventions we've attended in the past, so with OrcaCon we're focusing on welcoming people of all ages and game experience levels.

Now that's bullshit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416As a human being, I think it's important to listen to anyone based on their ideas,

Agre...

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416not their Victimhood Score.

...*sigh*

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416Anyone who sees themselves on the top of the pyramid, and specifically does something to help those lower on the pyramid always thinks it makes a difference.

Which is why some believe making a difference requires being on top.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416However, if you had heard at least one LGBTQ person address your "Hetero Ally" button, or talk about how great it was that OrcaCon let them be themselves at a gaming convention, or isn't Crackerville like they thought it would be, then that would be at least anecdotal proof

There's two problems with declaring oneself to be an ally. The first is that designation really needs to come from the party which considers you to be an ally to have any real legitimacy. The second is it's a political relationship ultimately incompatible with genuine friendship and romance. Ever hear the phrase "Never mix business with pleasure"? Well that goes double for politics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416as opposed to your being all fuzzy and glowy in your self-righteousness and projecting that onto everyone you saw.

I honestly lack the energy to read through this thread a second time, but as I recall he was only relaying his personal experiences about how inclusiveness worked for him, and not projecting it onto anyone else.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416That's my entire problem with it, actually.  The idea that people can't just socially interact without that need for acceptance, without the cover of "official protection".  That's not healthy.

I'm reminded of that time when my very white friend was tricked into going to a very black comedy club by someone he was trying to hook up with online. #Awkward. Also hilarious.

This isn't about safety or acceptance, but the simple gut human instinct we all share when not surrounded by others like us. It doesn't matter if they're hostile or wish us harm. It's alienating.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416Add to that transgender people are .3% of the population.

But a far larger proportion of the #Anime, #Gaming, and #Furry fandoms.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944416How many were at that convention?  How many of the people wearing those alternative pronoun ribbons were actually genderfluid?  Pretty sure a small percentage, the rest was just self-indulgence or getting attention.  

Just like once people went apeshit bending over backwards for people who suffered from Asperger's, tons of disaffected teens were self-identifying/self-diagnosing as Asperger's.  Once that stopped being the Prime Attention Tag, the self-identification shifted.  Just like those attention-seekers who were fucking things up for people with real Asperger's, the attention-seekers now are fucking things up for people who are actually Transgendered.

On the one hand, I've seen how everybody playing victim can make it harder for 'actual' victims to find help. On the other hand, questioning one's victim status is exactly how we get #OppressionOlympics and revictimize 'actual' victims. There's just no way to win this.

Cosplayers getting in for free if they serve concessions (for tips!), or escort lost gamers to their game room (for tips!), might spice things up.

Honestly, I dunno what to do. The whole affair needs a city for critical mass for amenities, yet cities already have regular FLGS (family local game stores) and house game meetups. The whole point of a Convention is to gather those unlikely with an excuse to meet, then mix & share. Yet most Cons are filled with dregs lawncrappers (I include the hyper-competitive Org/Tourney Play & fragile eggshells here too) and banal offerings.

A chill getting-to-know you space might help, as might copious amounts of booze, but the whole affair comes across like anteing up beaucoup $$$ to play super deluxe Monopoly with goofier rules.

Quote from: Opaopajr;944603Cosplayers getting in for free if they serve concessions (for tips!), or escort lost gamers to their game room (for tips!), might spice things up.

Honestly, I dunno what to do. The whole affair needs a city for critical mass for amenities, yet cities already have regular FLGS (family local game stores) and house game meetups. The whole point of a Convention is to gather those unlikely with an excuse to meet, then mix & share. Yet most Cons are filled with dregs lawncrappers (I include the hyper-competitive Org/Tourney Play & fragile eggshells here too) and banal offerings.

A chill getting-to-know you space might help, as might copious amounts of booze, but the whole affair comes across like anteing up beaucoup $$$ to play super deluxe Monopoly with goofier rules.

This. The convention, as it is now, is an obsolete technology. Whatever isn't better done with proper stores or clubs, the Internet curbstomps like something out of One-Punch Man. Until they bring value superior to all alternatives, they are worthless and people should stop wasting time or money on them.