Quote from: Zalman;1091480You're still conflating being able to select race and class with "a million options". Those are actually only two options, and a game can offer them as selections without any of the stuff about overwhelming options ever coming into play. It's a simple matter to allow race and class selection while still keeping the game utterly simple to start, and dispelling racial optimization, all at the same time.

Yes, if you remove any but cosmetic differences between the options, then the choice will be a quick one to make.

I am presuming that if options are offered, there are meaningful and significant differences between them. If you're not willing to do that, then you are in effect doing just as I suggest: you have X options, now choose. As opposed to X options followed by Y options followed by Z options. If all Ys and all Zs are the same, then only X matters. If you want to make the differences merely cosmetic, then don't waste anyone's time, just take them out.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1091547Yes, if you remove any but cosmetic differences between the options, then the choice will be a quick one to make.

I am presuming that if options are offered, there are meaningful and significant differences between them. If you're not willing to do that, then you are in effect doing just as I suggest: you have X options, now choose. As opposed to X options followed by Y options followed by Z options. If all Ys and all Zs are the same, then only X matters. If you want to make the differences merely cosmetic, then don't waste anyone's time, just take them out.

Now you (and others) are conflating meaningful differences between options with having an overabundance of options. Those are very different things. Options can be few, and still be meaningful. There can be (i.e.) 4 races to choose from, and four classes to choose from and they can all very different. The number of options, and whether those options are meaningful or cosmetic, are entirely unrelated.

Quote from: Zalman;1091581Now you (and others) are conflating meaningful differences between options with having an overabundance of options. Those are very different things. Options can be few, and still be meaningful. There can be (i.e.) 4 races to choose from, and four classes to choose from and they can all very different. The number of options, and whether those options are meaningful or cosmetic, are entirely unrelated.

Well, not entirely unrelated.  There is eventually a loose correlation in that past some number of options, it is effectively impossible to make them all meaningful.  But your larger point is correct.

Personally I don't see this as any particular issue. I have a few players that like to focus on optimization, but most just play whatever sounds good and in the end everyone has fun.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1091010So what alterations or options could one implement to reduce or eliminate race-class optimization as an issue.i have had a few ideas. One could be a number of race options that you can choose from when picking your race, maybe even options tied to classes. For example, maybe orc wizards get a bonus to damage on all damaging spells. Maybe Tiefling barbarians receive a Strength rather than a Charisma bonus. Something like that.

I don't think this is necessary at all, but your mention of tiefling barbarian swapping out Charisma for Strength made me think that you could have a race give a bonus to one stat that makes sense (maybe even also a penalty), and then class give a bonus to another stat that makes sense.

QuoteHas anybody thought of this issue and devised ways to miniseries this effect?

In my own D&D hack I started by paring down the, well, I guess you could call it the "assumed math" quite a bit. Like, by level x you should have +y to do z things.

In 3rd Edition I remember AC, attack bonus, saves, etc being more based on the expected party level it was intended to be used against more than anything else, and to bridge any gaps you were encouraged to tack on "racial" bonuses and natural armor bonuses, bump up ability scores, and add on bonus feats if necessary.

Initially in my game I just statted up monsters how I felt it made sense, without worrying about expected levels or "level appropriate encounters" or anything like that (which, it's been awhile but I feel like 2E was more like that). In early playtesting this allowed an elven wizard to grab a bow and start picking off bandits pretty easily, and a cambion wizard was able to go into melee and clobber skeletons with his quarterstaff.

This also made it easier to mix and match non-optimal races and classes together, without worrying that you were going to suck because your numbers were too low. Case in point, the last character I played was a kobold (Germanic spirit, not little dragon guy) fighter.

Small size, whatever Strength I rolled (I think my mod was +2, not that the race gave me a bonus), had to use smaller scale weapons and moved slower than everyone else, but still really effective. I can't think of a single point where I thought, "Damn, I should have played a race that grants a Strength bonus."

I guess the short of it isn't that you need to combat racial optimization, just set things up so that unoptimized characters can get by just fine.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1091029I agree with Omega that a min-maxer is going to min-max. This is one of the reasons I prefer race-as-class as found in BD&D. Beyond that, I tend to personally play human-centric games, which solves that particular issue.

In a high fantasy game, in your shoes, I'd be sorely tempted to let the dice decide. I'd personally pair this strictly with rolling stats in order, and strongly encourage people to roleplay whatever the oracles decide.

Roll 3D6:
   [table=width: 500]
[tr]
   [td]3[/td]
   [td]Choose: Dragonborn or Gnome[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]4-5[/td]
   [td]Halfling[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]6-8[/td]
   [td]Dwarf[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]9-12[/td]
   [td]Human[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]13-15[/td]
   [td]Elf[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]16-17[/td]
   [td]Half-elf[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]18[/td]
   [td]Choose: Half-orc or Tiefling[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

This is similar to something I set up in my game. There are two tables, actually:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3500[/ATTACH]

These are based on the assumption that some races are more common than others, and the GM chooses which to use, if any.

For the left one you roll, and either take what you get or default to human (unless you get human, of course), and for the right one you roll, and can choose what you get, or anything above that result (making it a bit more flexible).

So if you get an 83 on the right table, you can choose elf, kobold, dwarf, or human.

Quote from: Shasarak;1091419The chances that the DM is going to let you drill a hole in a sarcophagus lid and pour in oil is pretty slim.

I would! I wouldn't even care if it's the big bad evil guy or whatever, and I had this whole "epic" fight set up. If they can justify it, I'd at least give it a shot.

Quote from: Shasarak;1091419The chances that the DM is going to let you drill a hole in a sarcophagus lid and pour in oil is pretty slim.

I would allow it, but with one ex-player of mine, my worry would've been what he planned to do with his newly drilled and lubed glory hole...

Quote from: antiochcow;1091607This is similar to something I set up in my game. There are two tables, actually:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3500[/ATTACH]

These are based on the assumption that some races are more common than others, and the GM chooses which to use, if any.

For the left one you roll, and either take what you get or default to human (unless you get human, of course), and for the right one you roll, and can choose what you get, or anything above that result (making it a bit more flexible).

So if you get an 83 on the right table, you can choose elf, kobold, dwarf, or human.

Yup, an option of a) As Is Rolled, and b) As Is Rolled And Below. It's a nice compromise for those who have a hard time deciding, but cannot endure the dice deciding the entire choice. Regional Demographics has been one of my favorite tools to reinforce my setting's atmosphere.

--------------------

(As for the mummy, sure there'd be a struggle, maybe a goofy slappy fight or thumb war through the tiny hole -- and any spells allowable through it, if any relevant ones are known. But otherwise it's an "Oops, I guess my GMing them as a creepy atmosphere thing was cool, but my players organized better watches and rolled against Surprise amazingly well." I will reward their Surprise Watch Vigilance and Good Dice Roll by letting them have their Initiative -- and let's see if they use the opportunity well! Hold Portal and sitting on the other lid would be using their opportunity well, in my book; it's trying to meaningfully learn from the encounter.

Maybe if I beforehand described the sarcophagi as schist colossi, where only the ridiculously strong or magical could move or pierce the lid, would I be so strict. But that becomes more of a CoC game to me, where the descriptions alone should be sending you to madness. Sometimes I like that in D&D, but it does not sound like the atmosphere Kyle was going for in that example.)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1091589Well, not entirely unrelated.  There is eventually a loose correlation in that past some number of options, it is effectively impossible to make them all meaningful.

Fair enough!

Quote from: Opaopajr;1091636Yup, an option of a) As Is Rolled, and b) As Is Rolled And Below. It's a nice compromise for those who have a hard time deciding, but cannot endure the dice deciding the entire choice. Regional Demographics has been one of my favorite tools to reinforce my setting's atmosphere.

Yeah I figured some players would use it if they were feeling, well, adventurous. But it's also there for GMs that want to better enforce racial demographics in their campaign. Also for GMs to randomly generate NPCs.

Quote(As for the mummy, sure there'd be a struggle, maybe a goofy slappy fight or thumb war through the tiny hole -- and any spells allowable through it, if any relevant ones are known. But otherwise it's an "Oops, I guess my GMing them as a creepy atmosphere thing was cool, but my players organized better watches and rolled against Surprise amazingly well." I will reward their Surprise Watch Vigilance and Good Dice Roll by letting them have their Initiative -- and let's see if they use the opportunity well! Hold Portal and sitting on the other lid would be using their opportunity well, in my book; it's trying to meaningfully learn from the encounter.

Oh yeah. I wouldn't just let them do it every time, but if they manage to get the drop on the mummy, well, them's the breaks. Sealing it with hold portal sounds like a genius move. And if they drill a hole in the mummy could possibly do stuff through the hole. Maybe it turns into sand and escapes? I wouldn't just give it that ability in order to thwart their plans, of course.

But anyway that sounds like a good story. They played it safe and smart and easily destroyed what is normally a fairly potent enemy.