Quote from: Kyle Aaron;308952But following canon is impossible, because canon - as anyone who knows the original meaning of the world - is mutable. If Marc Miller GMed you in Traveller, Joss Whedon in Buffy, and N Robin Crossby in Harn, you still wouldn't get your particular version of "canon" since they themselves changed it over the course of their productions.

I'd pay money to see that, actually, all the canon-heads arguing with the creators that they don't know their production. Awesome. It'd be almost as good as seeing James M go back in time to be GMed by Gygax and be thoroughly disillusioned.

QFT

No work of fiction remains "true" to canon.  I have yet to see a single one of any length that didn't start to completely contradict itself later on.  Not a single one.  All creators change their minds over time - they constantly adjust things to suit their mood at the time.

The idea of "Traveller Canon" is even more absurd than most considering it has had so many rule systems over the years, many of them simultaneously developing next to each other like parallel alternative universes.

Traveller fans can be dicks about canon.  That's not news.  What's news here is MongooseFordy's unprofessional reaction to that fact.  Was Mongoose not aware of Trav fanaticism when they entered the field?  Anybody who was paying attention to the Trav scene could have anticipated canon brouhahas based upon the reception of GURPS Traveller.  Or did Mongoose just fail to explain that to the douchebag quoted in the first post?

Quote from: jgants;308962QFT

No work of fiction remains "true" to canon.  I have yet to see a single one of any length that didn't start to completely contradict itself later on.  Not a single one.  All creators change their minds over time - they constantly adjust things to suit their mood at the time.

The idea of "Traveller Canon" is even more absurd than most considering it has had so many rule systems over the years, many of them simultaneously developing next to each other like parallel alternative universes.

Thing is, big changes with no explanation just feel sloppy and like the writer's are doing a big cash-in.

I don't know how serious the example higher in the thread was, as I don't know squat about Traveller, but there was a comment about a race that is evolved wolves having antlers or something.  EEK.

I had a big issue with this in D&D3./5 when they dropped Infravision for Darkvision, specifically in Forgotten Realms, because they had explained large swaths of how the basic functions of Underdark society functioned with, and because of, Infravision (they told time by the use of magical heat moving up a pillar!) and didn't bother with any kinda rationale for the change other than "We like Darkvision better".

I'm okay with changes, but big changes for changes sake with no internal consistency is not only annoying, but lazy.

When Forgotten Realms moved to AD&D2E and now had new magic level limits, they came up with the whole big magical hubbub that led to the caps on magic, rather than one day you could do THIS and now you can only do THIS.

As for creators and canon, changes with no explanation are still very annoying, but way more forgivable coming from the source materials' creator.

For instance:  George Lucas introducing midichlorians in the Prequels...really rather hokey, but fine.  If WOTC had just decided one day to add midichlorians to the whole Jedi thing?  Asinine.

Just my opinion on it all.

ah, selective quoting....

Read the thread, people.  Context.  The post quoted in the OP was a joke, a barbed one, true, but the frustration is understandable based on the vitriol.  Seriously, one poster (who, I must add, is probably the most reasonable and enjoyable to read of the Traveller grogs) brushed aside the fact that earlier editions of Traveller from GDW invalidated entire swaths of old canon ship designs because he seemed to feel that psionic Aslan were more important.

Also pointed out: the change was approved by Marc Miller.  This just made people rag on MM.

The Traveller universe had more than its share of MAJOR contradictory canon in the GDW days (look at how the capital of 3I itself was described in Library Data entries for Capital in the early modules compared to what the 3I eventually looked like, for instance), and that situation, AFAICT, never got any better.  That folks would get so bent out of shape by a single sentence about Aslan psionics is kind of amazing, really.

And now there is a thread insisting that Mongoose use CotI posters for playtesting, another demanding to know if there is a 3I bible....

As a Mongoose Traveller playtester I know how things work unlike certain posters on CotI.
Avenger has always worked with Marc and still do Mongoose do the very same, in the end Marc says yes or no.

Canon needs large chunks of it made rational and/or just explained better, Mongoose is doing this with Marc, also if any of you have seen T5 you would know that things have changed in that as well.

Rog.

Quote from: jgants;308962The idea of "Traveller Canon" is even more absurd than most considering it has had so many rule systems over the years, many of them simultaneously developing next to each other like parallel alternative universes.

Are you saying it was Travgendered?  

Quote from: StormBringer;308977Are you saying it was Travgendered?  

:heh:

This isn't the first time, "jokingly" or not, that Mongoose has basically told the grognards to get stuffed. Considering that the grognards are the ones who made this a worthwhile license in the first place, it does seem to be rather dickish.

Gamers like me are going to play older editions because that's what we prefer, but how does it in any way benefit Mongoose to be rude to us?

Quote from: aramis;308951Most of my players would consider your "ignore canon and roll" mode to be the dickheaded move. We play in milieus with canon because we like the consistency and the setting hooks that that canon provides. We WANT to play in that 'verse.
/QUOTE]

This has been my experience. It is not entirely a straight jacket. There are things that are considered acceptable to muck around with in any given canon for a mileau.

As for traveller there are two things going on. First you can run traveller as a sci-fi game with your own universe. Or you can run the Third Imperium using a variety of editions of the Traveller rules.

I don't know why Mongoose decided to muck around Aslan psionics. Frankly the core of Traveller Canon is not very large compared to others.

What most people get intimated by is the size of the dataset describing the sectors of the Third Imperium. But the actual setting information is fairly compact. If all you read was Supplement 8 and 11 of classic Traveller you know about 80% of what you need to know about the 3rd Imperium.

The main problem is that because there been so many editions of Traveller a lot of restating the same thing happens again and again.

Quote from: The Shaman;308979This isn't the first time, "jokingly" or not, that Mongoose has basically told the grognards to get stuffed. Considering that the grognards are the ones who made this a worthwhile license in the first place, it does seem to be rather dickish.

Now its you who are joking.
If it was only the grog's who brought MGT then you would be correct BUT the sales of MGT have gone way, way beyond just grog's sales.
IMHO canon needs a good kick up the butt as its just a mess, I remember well when Martin started work on the MGT Spinward Marches book someone went out of their way to tell Marc that he/Avenger were trying to change canon (he/we wasnt even thinking of it).
A shit storm later and nothing could be changed/updated even with all of the glaring mistakes and errors - canon ruled the day, strange and stupid that later on Marc asked for suggestions to fix things but this wouldnt effect MGT Spinward Marches.

Rog.

Great just great, now Ive had my holding account banned on Coti for no reason what so ever.
Aramis care to explain as I cant ask you or any of the mods direct, please PM me.

Thanks,

Rog.

Roger:
Fordy, joking or not, has been pissy since day one toward anyone who loves the 3I setting.

Also, several of the changes were NOT approved by, but merely missed by, Marc Miller, and by Robject and DonM. That came out yesterday. Changes to the minimum size for bay weapons.

The original Traveller rules had no specific setting, so the idea of a Traveller canon is non-canon.

Quote from: aramis;309000Roger:
Fordy, joking or not, has been pissy since day one toward anyone who loves the 3I setting.

Also, several of the changes were NOT approved by, but merely missed by, Marc Miller, and by Robject and DonM. That came out yesterday. Changes to the minimum size for bay weapons.

That part about bay sizes was brought up in the playtest by me and others IIRC, all data and questions go direct to Marc and the canon team so the fault is with them and not Mongoose.

Quote from: Roger Calver;309004That part about bay sizes was brought up in the playtest by me and others IIRC, all data and questions go direct to Marc and the canon team so the fault is with them and not Mongoose.

Uhm, no. Don and Robject both noted that MWM had said "no" prior, and then it slipped through in the rush.

Fordy's snarkiness has pissed off a number of people. It's past the point of ticking off even several mongoose supporters.