Quote from: RPGPundit;1081221So, fuckwittery then.

Considering you can run the previous Deadlands Reloaded in the new system and new edition also includes the timeline progressing, then no, I would not consider it anything like that.

It's more Deadlands content that also happens to be updated to the most current revision of the core rule book (meanwhile the last version came out 2 editions ago)

Quote from: sureshot;1081235Given how wrong Pundit has been many times I take what he says on rpg failures with a continent sized grain of salt. Tje more time passes the more it seems like anyone that is more successful than Pundit he takes takes a dump on. Maybe it's jealously who knows.

   I think it's more that Pundit doesn't like Savage Worlds, ergo, the dismissive attitude. How dare we puny peons care for systems that have not received the endorsement of the Evil High Priest of the OSR and his infernal masters!

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1081243I think it's more that Pundit doesn't like Savage Worlds, ergo, the dismissive attitude. How dare we puny peons care for systems that have not received the endorsement of the Evil High Priest of the OSR and his infernal masters!

Well, the few mechanics that OSR finds essential, Savage Worlds doesn't have and is more crunchy than most OSR or OSR adjacent games (if not all of them).

So yeah, probably an anathema to him or anyone else that needs HP and classes in an RPG.

While I understand not liking Savage Worlds it just seems textbook Grongnard to constantly attack rpgs ones does mot like. While I dislike PB and Kevin S. I don't dislike or like their rpg rules. Neither will I go into every Savage Rifts thread or even just regular Rifts thread and continually say it's crap.

I think it's the Bennys.

I'm not a huge fan of the Benny-system, personally. But I don't think it's a big deal. I've been playing FASERIP since the 80's and the Karma system is far more specific in terms of letting an out of character currency system LITERALLY impact the mechanics of the game - yet I believe people consider that an OSR game (correct me if I'm wrong - in which case does that make FASERIP a swine-system too)?

So beyond the Benny-system... not sure what the issue is with Savage Worlds. I would be pretty surprised to hear it *was* HP/Classes... but then it would just mean that person has no fucking clue about how SW works or plays.

Honestly - *ALL* of these things are in Classic Deadlands. Fate chips, Wound systems, and 99% of what is now Savage Worlds,  the only things that have changed is they folded a lot of the mechanical crunch into a more simplified task-resolution system. If anything, Deadlands Reloaded is *closer* to being like BESMI than Classic Deadlands is to 5e by analogy.

what am I missing?

Quote from: tenbones;1081270what am I missing?

I think you are missing how much some people like/need classes as a thematic strength and how many people need to whittle off some HP each round to feel like they did something.

I am right with you, it doesn't "make sense" to me personally, but I know flesh and blood people with generally sensible opinions/beliefs that just really like classes. It's a neat little bundle that tells you, "I am playing this". It comes with niche protection, flavorful abilities, and thematic baggage.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1081275I think you are missing how much some people like/need classes as a thematic strength and how many people need to whittle off some HP each round to feel like they did something.

I am right with you, it doesn't "make sense" to me personally, but I know flesh and blood people with generally sensible opinions/beliefs that just really like classes. It's a neat little bundle that tells you, "I am playing this". It comes with niche protection, flavorful abilities, and thematic baggage.

Right. But insofar as Pundit considers SW twaddle, while liking Classic Deadlands... seems odd, especially given that OSR systems tend to be lighter (certainly FAR lighter mechanically than Classic Deadlands). And DLR is certainly lighter than Classic with all of the same narrative systems still in play.

I don't even think the differences are remotely greater than say - 4e D&D and 5e D&D. Where I have the reaction to 4e (don't like it at all) while 5e is whatever.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1081275I think you are missing how much some people like/need classes as a thematic strength...

Absolutely. I think this is where GURPS shines with templates and lenses. I imagine you could do something similar with Savage Worlds. That way, those who need a little more thematic direction can start with a template while the customizers can start from scratch.

Quote from: trechriron;1081324Absolutely. I think this is where GURPS shines with templates and lenses. I imagine you could do something similar with Savage Worlds. That way, those who need a little more thematic direction can start with a template while the customizers can start from scratch.

Savage RIfts already did this. Juicers, Cyborgs, Leyline Walkers and such start off fairly limited in customization but with a a lot built-in. On the other hand, mercenaries, scholars, scientists, and the rest start off with little hard-coded and a lot of free choices.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1081329Savage RIfts already did this. Juicers, Cyborgs, Leyline Walkers and such start off fairly limited in customization but with a a lot built-in. On the other hand, mercenaries, scholars, scientists, and the rest start off with little hard-coded and a lot of free choices.

Good call. Those "Iconic Frameworks" literally are the answer to the argument about classes in "classless" systems. The M.A.R.S. tables are *FANTASTIC* - arguably every bit as solid as the Iconic Frameworks.

Quote from: tenbones;1081427Good call. Those "Iconic Frameworks" literally are the answer to the argument about classes in "classless" systems. The M.A.R.S. tables are *FANTASTIC* - arguably every bit as solid as the Iconic Frameworks.

Savage Rifts managed to cover a ridiculous amount of Rifts content.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1081431Savage Rifts managed to cover a ridiculous amount of Rifts content.

I'm using it as my "North Star" for my ridonculous Fantasy-Game-Designed-To-Go-God-Mode. I've currently adapted the Cyber-Knight into a lower-scaled version of the "Psychic Warrior" that will scale into full Cyber-Knightish glory (sans the cybernetics which will likely become "magical enhancements").

It's a testament to SW that it could take Rifts and make it work so well. I largely feel that it was the capstone that sold me on the system. The scalability and flexibility WITH very little tweaking necessary has caused its stock-value to rise quickly at my table. It's not perfect. But for my time constraints and the games I'm currently running - it's hard to beat as my go-to choice.