Quote from: RandyB on March 23, 2022, 05:45:53 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:

What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.

If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.

  I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest.  That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything.  I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know.  I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia. 

    The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable.  Every day.

It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.

  I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level.  Large scale...no.

With sufficient magic, anything is possible.

Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.

So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.

Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.

Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.

A magical equivalent of Larry Niven's tasp - perpetual stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain.

No, that doesn't sound interesting to me, either.

So, exactly what I said? Happy-Happy thoughts enforced by magic, where Happy-Happy is defined by Big Brother. How the fuck isn't that fascism?

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:

What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.

If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.

  I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest.  That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything.  I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know.  I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia. 

    The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable.  Every day.

It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.

  I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level.  Large scale...no.

With sufficient magic, anything is possible.

Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.

So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.

Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.

Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.

To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.

So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."

And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:

What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.

If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.

  I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest.  That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything.  I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know.  I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia. 

    The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable.  Every day.

It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.

  I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level.  Large scale...no.

With sufficient magic, anything is possible.

Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.

So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.

Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.

Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.

To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.

So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."

And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".

Enhancing virtues isn't brainwashing. You still get to make your own choices, but the more virtuous you will very likely make more virtuous choices. And who's to say there's a Big Brother that does this? It could very well be an inherent planar trait of the realm the utopia exists within. But beyond that, in a world with defined  alignments, there can be absolutes when it comes to good and evil.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.

So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."

And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".

So in this view, Christian Heaven is a fascist state - because Big Brother God enforces happiness on everyone.

It seems the clash of assumptions is that you reject the possibility of divine or magical benevolence -- even within fiction. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 06:17:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:

What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.

If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.

  I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest.  That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything.  I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know.  I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia. 

    The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable.  Every day.

It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.

  I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level.  Large scale...no.

With sufficient magic, anything is possible.

Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.

So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.

Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.

Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.

To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.

So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."

And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".

Enhancing virtues isn't brainwashing. You still get to make your own choices, but the more virtuous you will very likely make more virtuous choices. And who's to say there's a Big Brother that does this? It could very well be an inherent planar trait of the realm the utopia exists within. But beyond that, in a world with defined  alignments, there can be absolutes when it comes to good and evil.

What do you do with the absolute evil that happen to be born in your Dystopia?

Also, where do these virtues come from? Do good people have any vices? Who defines what's a vice in your Dystopia? What if I don't want you "enhancing my calm".

"You can't take away the people's right to be assholes" Simon Phoenix

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 06:27:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.

So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."

And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".

So in this view, Christian Heaven is a fascist state - because Big Brother God enforces happiness on everyone.

It seems the clash of assumptions is that you reject the possibility of divine or magical benevolence -- even within fiction. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

Are you saying that this fictitious setting is meant to represent Christian Heaven? Wanna bet what would the author's/publisher answer to that would be?

Is there a magic crystal that can take ANYONE to Christian Heaven and back without dying? Is the entrance allowed to unbelievers? To unrepentant sinners? Don't ALL Christians by adhering to the religion and it's tennants explicity agree to go to Heaven and live there forever?

Can a denizen of Hell just cross a portal into Heaven? Can Lucifer just waltz into it?

By being Christian and following the religion's mandates YOU express your wish to live in Heaven, who asked the denizens of that fictitious setting?

You just don't follow your own logic to it's conclusion.

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 06:27:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.

So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."

And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".

So in this view, Christian Heaven is a fascist state - because Big Brother God enforces happiness on everyone.

It seems the clash of assumptions is that you reject the possibility of divine or magical benevolence -- even within fiction. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

  No christian heaven is existence with NO diversity.  Everyone pretty much thinks alike and acts alike, they do it because they want to.   That is how they got there.   

  I would also add....and this is spicy, no one here can prove heaven is real.  Some Christians these days do not even believe in a hell.  So using a faith based example for an example to juxtapose to a fiction, is kind of like using a fiction to reinforce a fiction.

I could smack this little theology session around if I cared to. But I do not.

As for the book. Right now we do not know what exactly it will entail. And going off the designer and WOTCs word is a study in futility and being baited.

Odds are since it is some extradimensional place it will be running on some overall benign enforcement. Otherwise the whole thing collapses.

They might steal a page from Planescape and just have some all seeing god-like thingy wandering around zapping anyone who tries anything.
Or the area might be permeated with niceatron magic radiation. The opposing force to meanatron magic radiation. 
Or anyone is allowed in. But if they even thing to cause trouble they are instantly teleported out.

You can just about bet anything we think of will be more interesting than what is in the book.

That is even assuming the place even is as safe and friendly as they say it will be.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 06:28:24 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 06:17:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:

What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.

If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.

  I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest.  That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything.  I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know.  I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia. 

    The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable.  Every day.

It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.

  I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level.  Large scale...no.

With sufficient magic, anything is possible.

Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.

So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.

Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.

Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.

To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.

So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."

And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".

Enhancing virtues isn't brainwashing. You still get to make your own choices, but the more virtuous you will very likely make more virtuous choices. And who's to say there's a Big Brother that does this? It could very well be an inherent planar trait of the realm the utopia exists within. But beyond that, in a world with defined  alignments, there can be absolutes when it comes to good and evil.

What do you do with the absolute evil that happen to be born in your Dystopia?

Also, where do these virtues come from? Do good people have any vices? Who defines what's a vice in your Dystopia? What if I don't want you "enhancing my calm".

"You can't take away the people's right to be assholes" Simon Phoenix

You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.

And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.

I must be super naive. I assumed when he originally said it, he meant you could use magic to provide basic needs. So food, water and warmth via magic.

And then whatever the hell this has been for the last page and a half happened.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.

And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.

Dude, he's right "because Dragons!"

And there his reasoning stops.

Just like jhkim conflating a place where your virtues allow you to enter after death with one to which anyone can go and once there no one commits any evil, because Dragons...

Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2022, 07:48:16 PM
I must be super naive. I assumed when he originally said it, he meant you could use magic to provide basic needs. So food, water and warmth via magic.

And then whatever the hell this has been for the last page and a half happened.

   He said to make a utopia possible.  Honestly I think it would take a good bit more than that to make a utopia possible, without a complete rewiring of human nature.   I guess if you put enough magic on it you could...but utopia starts to get a little fuzzy.  I mean, didnt Lucifer rebel in heaven even though he lived in a utopia?  I begin to think utopia will have to be defined by its creator and inhabitants, and might require not having too many of them, because one person's heaven could be another's hell. 

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.

And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.

I'm talking about world laws (torg) or planar traits (D&D) that apply to all creatures in that world. IRL, we have world laws that give us physics, chemistry, and other hard sciences. We also have less rigid soft sciences. In other worlds, this doesn't have to be the same. Looney Tunes operates in with world laws that considerably alter physics. Four-color comics operate with world laws that alter behavioral norms. A D&D world could exist where the natural state of every person was to have morality and virtues that would make a (1e-3e) paladin proud. And still, some of those paladin-like folks might fall because they still have free will.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.

And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.

I'm talking about world laws (torg) or planar traits (D&D) that apply to all creatures in that world. IRL, we have world laws that give us physics, chemistry, and other hard sciences. We also have less rigid soft sciences. In other worlds, this doesn't have to be the same. Looney Tunes operates in with world laws that considerably alter physics. Four-color comics operate with world laws that alter behavioral norms. A D&D world could exist where the natural state of every person was to have morality and virtues that would make a (1e-3e) paladin proud. And still, some of those paladin-like folks might fall because they still have free will.

  With those conditions it certainly seems plausible...but I am not so sure it would be the most fun place for my group to adventure, or even visit beyond a quick pop in and pop out.  It seems like the sort of place that would rate about a paragraph in the old Q1 module as a dimension you could enter through one of the many dimensional gates there.