The new #dnd5e #RadiantCitadel book promises no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets, and "Diversity"! Which means lazy utopian stereotypes and no Caucasian game designers.
... Well, actually, almost none.
#dnd #ttrpg
Boasting about the skin colors of the game creators that are included and excluded is flat-out, grossly racist.
It doesn't surprise me that people who act this way need to seek increasingly extreme (and ironically increasingly racist) ways to demonstrate their virtue. The guilt must spread like Green Slime in their subconscious.
Could they possibly throw up more red flags?
I'd sooner run Blue Rose, at least that has the possibility of conflict. Ye gods and little fishes.
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
Quote from: The Spaniard on March 23, 2022, 11:08:39 AM
Could they possibly throw up more red flags?
I am holding out for that gay prom/ball.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
A magical equivalent of Larry Niven's tasp - perpetual stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain.
No, that doesn't sound interesting to me, either.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
Quote from: RandyB on March 23, 2022, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
A magical equivalent of Larry Niven's tasp - perpetual stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain.
No, that doesn't sound interesting to me, either.
So, exactly what I said? Happy-Happy thoughts enforced by magic, where Happy-Happy is defined by Big Brother. How the fuck isn't that fascism?
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."
And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."
And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".
Enhancing virtues isn't brainwashing. You still get to make your own choices, but the more virtuous you will very likely make more virtuous choices. And who's to say there's a Big Brother that does this? It could very well be an inherent planar trait of the realm the utopia exists within. But beyond that, in a world with defined alignments, there can be absolutes when it comes to good and evil.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."
And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".
So in this view, Christian Heaven is a fascist state - because Big Brother God enforces happiness on everyone.
It seems the clash of assumptions is that you reject the possibility of divine or magical benevolence -- even within fiction. Do you think that's a fair assessment?
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 06:17:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."
And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".
Enhancing virtues isn't brainwashing. You still get to make your own choices, but the more virtuous you will very likely make more virtuous choices. And who's to say there's a Big Brother that does this? It could very well be an inherent planar trait of the realm the utopia exists within. But beyond that, in a world with defined alignments, there can be absolutes when it comes to good and evil.
What do you do with the absolute evil that happen to be born in your Dystopia?
Also, where do these virtues come from? Do good people have any vices? Who defines what's a vice in your Dystopia? What if I don't want you "enhancing my calm".
"You can't take away the people's right to be assholes" Simon Phoenix
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 06:27:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."
And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".
So in this view, Christian Heaven is a fascist state - because Big Brother God enforces happiness on everyone.
It seems the clash of assumptions is that you reject the possibility of divine or magical benevolence -- even within fiction. Do you think that's a fair assessment?
Are you saying that this fictitious setting is meant to represent Christian Heaven? Wanna bet what would the author's/publisher answer to that would be?
Is there a magic crystal that can take ANYONE to Christian Heaven and back without dying? Is the entrance allowed to unbelievers? To unrepentant sinners? Don't ALL Christians by adhering to the religion and it's tennants explicity agree to go to Heaven and live there forever?
Can a denizen of Hell just cross a portal into Heaven? Can Lucifer just waltz into it?
By being Christian and following the religion's mandates YOU express your wish to live in Heaven, who asked the denizens of that fictitious setting?
You just don't follow your own logic to it's conclusion.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 06:27:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."
And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".
So in this view, Christian Heaven is a fascist state - because Big Brother God enforces happiness on everyone.
It seems the clash of assumptions is that you reject the possibility of divine or magical benevolence -- even within fiction. Do you think that's a fair assessment?
No christian heaven is existence with NO diversity. Everyone pretty much thinks alike and acts alike, they do it because they want to. That is how they got there.
I would also add....and this is spicy, no one here can prove heaven is real. Some Christians these days do not even believe in a hell. So using a faith based example for an example to juxtapose to a fiction, is kind of like using a fiction to reinforce a fiction.
I could smack this little theology session around if I cared to. But I do not.
As for the book. Right now we do not know what exactly it will entail. And going off the designer and WOTCs word is a study in futility and being baited.
Odds are since it is some extradimensional place it will be running on some overall benign enforcement. Otherwise the whole thing collapses.
They might steal a page from Planescape and just have some all seeing god-like thingy wandering around zapping anyone who tries anything.
Or the area might be permeated with niceatron magic radiation. The opposing force to meanatron magic radiation. :o
Or anyone is allowed in. But if they even thing to cause trouble they are instantly teleported out.
You can just about bet anything we think of will be more interesting than what is in the book.
That is even assuming the place even is as safe and friendly as they say it will be.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 06:28:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 06:17:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:51:25 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
To use Torg as an example, change the world laws or enhance the inhabitants' virtues, like honesty, generosity, courage, and compassion. Better people can create and sustain the utopia without the need of secret police and fascism.
So magic brainwashing, or what I said: "magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you."
And of course said Big Brother is absolutelly Good and does this "for your own good".
Enhancing virtues isn't brainwashing. You still get to make your own choices, but the more virtuous you will very likely make more virtuous choices. And who's to say there's a Big Brother that does this? It could very well be an inherent planar trait of the realm the utopia exists within. But beyond that, in a world with defined alignments, there can be absolutes when it comes to good and evil.
What do you do with the absolute evil that happen to be born in your Dystopia?
Also, where do these virtues come from? Do good people have any vices? Who defines what's a vice in your Dystopia? What if I don't want you "enhancing my calm".
"You can't take away the people's right to be assholes" Simon Phoenix
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.
And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.
I must be super naive. I assumed when he originally said it, he meant you could use magic to provide basic needs. So food, water and warmth via magic.
And then whatever the hell this has been for the last page and a half happened.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.
And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.
Dude, he's right "because Dragons!"
And there his reasoning stops.
Just like jhkim conflating a place where your virtues allow you to enter after death with one to which anyone can go and once there no one commits any evil, because Dragons...
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2022, 07:48:16 PM
I must be super naive. I assumed when he originally said it, he meant you could use magic to provide basic needs. So food, water and warmth via magic.
And then whatever the hell this has been for the last page and a half happened.
He said to make a utopia possible. Honestly I think it would take a good bit more than that to make a utopia possible, without a complete rewiring of human nature. I guess if you put enough magic on it you could...but utopia starts to get a little fuzzy. I mean, didnt Lucifer rebel in heaven even though he lived in a utopia? I begin to think utopia will have to be defined by its creator and inhabitants, and might require not having too many of them, because one person's heaven could be another's hell.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.
And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.
I'm talking about world laws (torg) or planar traits (D&D) that apply to all creatures in that world. IRL, we have world laws that give us physics, chemistry, and other hard sciences. We also have less rigid soft sciences. In other worlds, this doesn't have to be the same. Looney Tunes operates in with world laws that considerably alter physics. Four-color comics operate with world laws that alter behavioral norms. A D&D world could exist where the natural state of every person was to have morality and virtues that would make a (1e-3e) paladin proud. And still, some of those paladin-like folks might fall because they still have free will.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:54:33 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.
And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.
I'm talking about world laws (torg) or planar traits (D&D) that apply to all creatures in that world. IRL, we have world laws that give us physics, chemistry, and other hard sciences. We also have less rigid soft sciences. In other worlds, this doesn't have to be the same. Looney Tunes operates in with world laws that considerably alter physics. Four-color comics operate with world laws that alter behavioral norms. A D&D world could exist where the natural state of every person was to have morality and virtues that would make a (1e-3e) paladin proud. And still, some of those paladin-like folks might fall because they still have free will.
With those conditions it certainly seems plausible...but I am not so sure it would be the most fun place for my group to adventure, or even visit beyond a quick pop in and pop out. It seems like the sort of place that would rate about a paragraph in the old Q1 module as a dimension you could enter through one of the many dimensional gates there.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 08:08:13 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:54:33 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.
And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.
I'm talking about world laws (torg) or planar traits (D&D) that apply to all creatures in that world. IRL, we have world laws that give us physics, chemistry, and other hard sciences. We also have less rigid soft sciences. In other worlds, this doesn't have to be the same. Looney Tunes operates in with world laws that considerably alter physics. Four-color comics operate with world laws that alter behavioral norms. A D&D world could exist where the natural state of every person was to have morality and virtues that would make a (1e-3e) paladin proud. And still, some of those paladin-like folks might fall because they still have free will.
With those conditions it certainly seems plausible...but I am not so sure it would be the most fun place for my group to adventure, or even visit beyond a quick pop in and pop out. It seems like the sort of place that would rate about a paragraph in the old Q1 module as a dimension you could enter through one of the many dimensional gates there.
Not that I care at all about D&D at this point, but I think the product we are discussing is providing a little utopia to go to between adventures. The other worlds you might adventure in don't have to be utopias (but you can try and spread yours to them...).
Well I'm sure WOTC will send SUCKER!, er, Thank You! notes to everyone here who has so graciously given them free advertising.
Can someone point me to the link where WotC says there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets" or something of the sort?
It will be strange if that is the case. Combat used to be one of the three pillars of 5e, and this is not the first module I hear is "combat light" (The Wild Beyond the Witchlight being the other).
Not that I've read any of these modules, but CoS, ToA and a=Avernus are decent enough - with lots of combat - despite the abysmal organization (and the blatant railroad of the latter, and weak beginnings of all campaigns).
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 08:08:13 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:54:33 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:46:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 07:00:30 PM
You simply can't accept or perhaps cannot understand the concept of differing world laws.
And neither can you, cuz all you're doing is proposing some sort of "enhanced virtues" BS (whatever that even means) as an ill defined handwaviun measure, then falling back on some vague appeal to possibilities as means for us to accept that even makes sense. Or that altering people's virtues as a means to indirectly enforce certain behavior somehow doesn't entail magic brainwashing or wouldn't have negative consequences. You even claim that people would still be able to make their own choices (somehow) when the idea that some "virtue enhancing" magic that prevents them from engaging in certain behaviors pretty much precludes the possibility of making their own choices.
I'm talking about world laws (torg) or planar traits (D&D) that apply to all creatures in that world. IRL, we have world laws that give us physics, chemistry, and other hard sciences. We also have less rigid soft sciences. In other worlds, this doesn't have to be the same. Looney Tunes operates in with world laws that considerably alter physics. Four-color comics operate with world laws that alter behavioral norms. A D&D world could exist where the natural state of every person was to have morality and virtues that would make a (1e-3e) paladin proud. And still, some of those paladin-like folks might fall because they still have free will.
With those conditions it certainly seems plausible...but I am not so sure it would be the most fun place for my group to adventure, or even visit beyond a quick pop in and pop out. It seems like the sort of place that would rate about a paragraph in the old Q1 module as a dimension you could enter through one of the many dimensional gates there.
Not that I care at all about D&D at this point, but I think the product we are discussing is providing a little utopia to go to between adventures. The other worlds you might adventure in don't have to be utopias (but you can try and spread yours to them...).
Also I can see it....I just do not see a market for it. Paragraph on a sheet of paper in my notebook. Not a 40-50 dollar book. I am same, no D&D for me, but if they at least had inspired setting material I would be tempted to buy it (I can convert D&D material to GURPS or SW just about on the fly at this point, or at least within a certain band) for rip off material and a time saver for cooking up maps and story ideas.
In retrospect, I'm sorry about bringing up heaven. That's too charged with real-world beliefs, and we are talking about fiction here.
Also, to clarify, I know nothing about WotC's Radiant Citadel. I haven't read it, and am making no comment about that product in particular. I avoid talking about products based solely on marketing and/or hearsay. This is a digression about utopias in fantasy fiction in general.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 08:08:13 PM
With those conditions it certainly seems plausible...but I am not so sure it would be the most fun place for my group to adventure, or even visit beyond a quick pop in and pop out. It seems like the sort of place that would rate about a paragraph in the old Q1 module as a dimension you could enter through one of the many dimensional gates there.
For utopias in fantasy fiction, I picture places like Tolkien's Rivendell, or the Emerald City after the second Oz book, or Narnia's Cair Paravel in its Golden Age. It's a nice place to visit, and you can have interesting discussions, and nothing bad happens there. It's a place to rest and relax and socialize, and characters can retire there and live happily ever after. Active characters can still go out from there into the wider world, though, to have dangerous adventures.
I think modern fantasy fiction tends to not have places like this, being more focused on grim-and-gritty. I don't want every setting to have these, but I think they're good as an option and I don't think there's anything fascist about them.
50 bucks is a big ask for what amounts to a big old tavern to rest in.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 08:46:34 PM
50 bucks is a big ask for what amounts to a big old tavern to rest in.
According to the description, the book isn't primarily a setting book about the Radiant Citadel. It's a collection of 13 short adventures. Here's the official description:
QuoteJourneys through the Radiant Citadel is a collection of thirteen short, stand-alone D&D adventures featuring challenges for character levels 1–14. Each adventure has ties to the Radiant Citadel, a magical city with connections to lands rich with excitement and danger, and each can be run by itself or as part of an ongoing campaign. Explore this rich and varied collection of adventures in magical lands.
- Thirteen new stand-alone adventures spanning levels 1 to 14, each with its own set of maps
- Introduces the Radiant Citadel, a new location on the Ethereal Plane that connects adventurers to richly detailed and distinct corners of the D&D multiverse
- Each adventure can be set in any existing D&D campaign setting or on worlds of your own design
- Introduces eleven new D&D monsters
- There's a story for every adventuring party, from whimsical and light to dark and foreboding and everything in between
It hasn't come out yet, but I suspect it will be similar to the Candlekeep Mysteries book that I do have. That book has about 10 pages about the setting of Candlekeep itself, but almost all the rest of the 224 pages is split among the 17 short adventures. Only one of those adventures is set within Candlekeep itself. The rest all have an initial hook within Candlekeep but then the main action takes place elsewhere.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 08:46:34 PM
50 bucks is a big ask for what amounts to a big old tavern to rest in.
According to the description, the book isn't primarily a setting book about the Radiant Citadel. It's a collection of 13 short adventures. Here's the official description:
QuoteJourneys through the Radiant Citadel is a collection of thirteen short, stand-alone D&D adventures featuring challenges for character levels 1–14. Each adventure has ties to the Radiant Citadel, a magical city with connections to lands rich with excitement and danger, and each can be run by itself or as part of an ongoing campaign. Explore this rich and varied collection of adventures in magical lands.
- Thirteen new stand-alone adventures spanning levels 1 to 14, each with its own set of maps
- Introduces the Radiant Citadel, a new location on the Ethereal Plane that connects adventurers to richly detailed and distinct corners of the D&D multiverse
- Each adventure can be set in any existing D&D campaign setting or on worlds of your own design
- Introduces eleven new D&D monsters
- There's a story for every adventuring party, from whimsical and light to dark and foreboding and everything in between
It hasn't come out yet, but I suspect it will be similar to the Candlekeep Mysteries book that I do have. That book has about 10 pages about the setting of Candlekeep itself, but almost all the rest of the 224 pages is split among the 17 short adventures. Only one of those adventures is set within Candlekeep itself. The rest all have an initial hook within Candlekeep but then the main action takes place elsewhere.
Saw a summary detailing a few of those. Did not look amazing. I thought the yawning portal was pretty good. Maybe these are a good deal better than they look. Again, a pretty big ask unless there is something very compelling between the covers.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 09:00:44 PM
It hasn't come out yet, but I suspect it will be similar to the Candlekeep Mysteries book that I do have. That book has about 10 pages about the setting of Candlekeep itself, but almost all the rest of the 224 pages is split among the 17 short adventures. Only one of those adventures is set within Candlekeep itself. The rest all have an initial hook within Candlekeep but then the main action takes place elsewhere.
Saw a summary detailing a few of those. Did not look amazing. I thought the yawning portal was pretty good. Maybe these are a good deal better than they look. Again, a pretty big ask unless there is something very compelling between the covers.
So you liked Tales from the Yawning Portal? I avoided that because my inclination was to just run the original material using 5E rules. I had already run both Sunless Citadel and Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan using the original modules and 5E rules/stats. Did the book seem worthwhile to someone who already has the original material?
Of the official WotC modules, I'm most familiar with Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Out of the Abyss. Both of those were pretty bad, in my opinion. I thought that Candlekeep Mysteries was much better than those two. It's a collection of short adventures rather than an epic path, but the quality of each was better than the sections in the former. I haven't used Candlekeep in play yet, though.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 09:21:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 09:00:44 PM
It hasn't come out yet, but I suspect it will be similar to the Candlekeep Mysteries book that I do have. That book has about 10 pages about the setting of Candlekeep itself, but almost all the rest of the 224 pages is split among the 17 short adventures. Only one of those adventures is set within Candlekeep itself. The rest all have an initial hook within Candlekeep but then the main action takes place elsewhere.
Saw a summary detailing a few of those. Did not look amazing. I thought the yawning portal was pretty good. Maybe these are a good deal better than they look. Again, a pretty big ask unless there is something very compelling between the covers.
So you liked Tales from the Yawning Portal? I avoided that because my inclination was to just run the original material using 5E rules. I had already run both Sunless Citadel and Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan using the original modules and 5E rules/stats. Did the book seem worthwhile to someone who already has the original material?
Of the official WotC modules, I'm most familiar with Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Out of the Abyss. Both of those were pretty bad, in my opinion. I thought that Candlekeep Mysteries was much better than those two. It's a collection of short adventures rather than an epic path, but the quality of each was better than the sections in the former. I haven't used Candlekeep in play yet, though.
I thought it was pretty good. I had 1e versions of 4 of the modules in the book, that were lost to me thanks to bootcamp and leaving them with a young brother....who managed to lose them. So it was largely a nostalgia purchase. I also find it super useful since I do not run D&D ( I will play it, but GM'ing it does not interest me) and the DM (interesting enough, is the same brother who lost the original modules) needs all the creative inspiration he can get. So I cant give an honest answer here, if I still had those modules (Shrine/White plume/G1-3/Tomb of horrors) I do not know if I would have bought it for value...but I probably still would have picked it up for consolidation of nostalgia (which is the real reason I initially got it when I was DM'ing).
The longer book sized modules/campaigns for D&D do not interest me at all. I do have Rappan Athuk, but that is really a whole bunch of (lots of times unrelated) smaller adventures. I suspect my preference in fiction reading (short story versus epic novel) might influence that. I *might* DM RA, but I could see me doing a conversion to SW for that one, waiting on the print version of savage pathfinder to consider seriously.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 23, 2022, 08:27:08 PM
Can someone point me to the link where WotC says there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets" or something of the sort?
It will be strange if that is the case. Combat used to be one of the three pillars of 5e, and this is not the first module I hear is "combat light" (The Wild Beyond the Witchlight being the other).
Not that I've read any of these modules, but CoS, ToA and a=Avernus are decent enough - with lots of combat - despite the abysmal organization (and the blatant railroad of the latter, and weak beginnings of all campaigns).
Sounds like the city itself is a safe haven and any fighting is to be done outside the dimension.
Its similar I guess to how Rodenberry's Pax organization was peaceful. But everywhere around them tended to be very not.
Of so it suggests the place is screening entrants or has some system for dealing with troublemakers.
QuoteJourneys Through the Radiant Citadel features 13 adventures, all written by people of colour. Here's a quick peek at three of them, as details start to emerge across the internet!
Salted Legacy (1st level, Surena Marie). Rival merchant families are at war in the Night Market. Various challenges such as a timed cooking challenge.
Written in Blood (3rd level, Erin Roberts). Based on the black experience in the Southern US, features a haunted farm and commoners who becoming violent; the adventurers need to figure out why without harming them.
Shadow of the Sun (11th level, Justice Arman). Persian-themed, factions in a city ruled by a celestial being are in conflict.
The lovely thing about the years beyond 1974 is we have other options for fantasy RPGs to play. First, we had Tunnels & Trolls and soon RuneQuest, Palladium Fantasy, Fantasy Hero, Chartmaster and many more. Today we have the option of THOUSANDS of RPGs written in the past 4.8 decades to play instead of D&D.
We literally have 1000s of choices. Easily a 100 good-enough RPGs to replace ever having to touch a WotC shitstain book ever again.
There's zero reason for anyone to give WotC a dime unless you enjoy gobbling down their retarded woke bullshit.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2022, 11:16:16 AM
I'd sooner run Blue Rose, at least that has the possibility of conflict. Ye gods and little fishes.
Actually, BR was pretty great. --- Yeah, I know your comment was three pages ago, and I know that this probably is not interesting to you, in the least, but...
I bought that book by accident, back in the day, and never regretted the purchase in the least. (I thought it was the True20 basic manual. True story.)
I personally am probably never going to level my PC in the Wedding Planner Prestige Class, but - daaaaamn, that was a great game: Deep, and smart, and genuine.
Gayer than my sleeveless pink shirt with Viggo Mortensen's face on it, but, in two words, pretty awesome.
"Schneider's Citadel", in turn. Deep? Smart? Genuine, most of all? - Yeah, uuuhm, probably not.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:54:09 PM
Quote from: RandyB on March 23, 2022, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
A magical equivalent of Larry Niven's tasp - perpetual stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain.
No, that doesn't sound interesting to me, either.
So, exactly what I said? Happy-Happy thoughts enforced by magic, where Happy-Happy is defined by Big Brother. How the fuck isn't that fascism?
Yep. Of the Brave New World kind, not the Animal Farm/1984 kind.
Quote from: RandyB on March 24, 2022, 08:08:49 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:54:09 PM
Quote from: RandyB on March 23, 2022, 05:45:53 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:25:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 23, 2022, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
I already commented in the other thread regarding this, but I'll repeat something of what I said there:
What they think they wrote is an Utopia, and like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface you realize it's just another Dystopia.
If you want an expanded explanation go read my post there.
I think Utopia is closer for some people than others, to be honest. That book seems to be a utopia for people who have never really worked hard, struggled, or had to fight for anything. I know a couple people who homestead, and they seem to be the happiest people I know. I would not say they live in a utopia....but if your general quality of life is about maxed out according to your desires, and you literally get up every day happy to do what you do, be where you are, and with the people around you....I guess they could call it a utopia.
The problem is many of these utopias are IME imagined by people who are simply miserable. Every day.
It's a fascist Dystopia. Their book not your friends lifestyle.
I agree there, my idea being "utopia" is possible on a personal small community level. Large scale...no.
With sufficient magic, anything is possible.
Yep, magic ensuring everybody has only happy-happy thoughts, where happy-happy is defined by Big Brother, who is of course always watching you.
So, fascism, magically enforced fascism.
Your assumptions are showing. There are better ways of accomplishing utopia via magic thab by emulating fascist control.
Oh really!? Please do illuminate us with ONE of those.
A magical equivalent of Larry Niven's tasp - perpetual stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain.
No, that doesn't sound interesting to me, either.
So, exactly what I said? Happy-Happy thoughts enforced by magic, where Happy-Happy is defined by Big Brother. How the fuck isn't that fascism?
Yep. Of the Brave New World kind, not the Animal Farm/1984 kind.
EXACTLY!
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 10:44:56 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 23, 2022, 08:27:08 PM
Can someone point me to the link where WotC says there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets" or something of the sort?
It will be strange if that is the case. Combat used to be one of the three pillars of 5e, and this is not the first module I hear is "combat light" (The Wild Beyond the Witchlight being the other).
Not that I've read any of these modules, but CoS, ToA and a=Avernus are decent enough - with lots of combat - despite the abysmal organization (and the blatant railroad of the latter, and weak beginnings of all campaigns).
Sounds like the city itself is a safe haven and any fighting is to be done outside the dimension.
Its similar I guess to how Rodenberry's Pax organization was peaceful. But everywhere around them tended to be very not.
Of so it suggests the place is screening entrants or has some system for dealing with troublemakers.
QuoteJourneys Through the Radiant Citadel features 13 adventures, all written by people of colour. Here's a quick peek at three of them, as details start to emerge across the internet!
Salted Legacy (1st level, Surena Marie). Rival merchant families are at war in the Night Market. Various challenges such as a timed cooking challenge.
Written in Blood (3rd level, Erin Roberts). Based on the black experience in the Southern US, features a haunted farm and commoners who becoming violent; the adventurers need to figure out why without harming them.
Shadow of the Sun (11th level, Justice Arman). Persian-themed, factions in a city ruled by a celestial being are in conflict.
Yeah, cooking challenges DO sound silly... But "Im wondering if they actually said there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets".
Because, I eman, there are a dozen new monsters, and I can't see how you can have factions without intrigues...
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 24, 2022, 01:26:39 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 10:44:56 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 23, 2022, 08:27:08 PM
Can someone point me to the link where WotC says there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets" or something of the sort?
It will be strange if that is the case. Combat used to be one of the three pillars of 5e, and this is not the first module I hear is "combat light" (The Wild Beyond the Witchlight being the other).
Not that I've read any of these modules, but CoS, ToA and a=Avernus are decent enough - with lots of combat - despite the abysmal organization (and the blatant railroad of the latter, and weak beginnings of all campaigns).
Sounds like the city itself is a safe haven and any fighting is to be done outside the dimension.
Its similar I guess to how Rodenberry's Pax organization was peaceful. But everywhere around them tended to be very not.
Of so it suggests the place is screening entrants or has some system for dealing with troublemakers.
QuoteJourneys Through the Radiant Citadel features 13 adventures, all written by people of colour. Here's a quick peek at three of them, as details start to emerge across the internet!
Salted Legacy (1st level, Surena Marie). Rival merchant families are at war in the Night Market. Various challenges such as a timed cooking challenge.
Written in Blood (3rd level, Erin Roberts). Based on the black experience in the Southern US, features a haunted farm and commoners who becoming violent; the adventurers need to figure out why without harming them.
Shadow of the Sun (11th level, Justice Arman). Persian-themed, factions in a city ruled by a celestial being are in conflict.
Yeah, cooking challenges DO sound silly... But "Im wondering if they actually said there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets".
Because, I eman, there are a dozen new monsters, and I can't see how you can have factions without intrigues...
Here's link to a press release where it gets mentioned...
https://www.wargamer.com/dnd/journeys-through-the-radiant-citadel-release-date
QuoteThe titular Radiant Citadel acts as a hub between adventures where adventurers can find respite. According to George, the Radiant Citadel is "a city of stories and sanctuary – a crossroad city that welcomes all in need". George adds that the Radiant Citadel was designed to be distinct from the D&D cities you may be used to. "It's not a place of backstabbing and monsters and crime lurking just around the corner – the radiant city was meant to give players a real home."
Note that this just applies to the citadel itself. I'm guessing that the adventures themselves might include combat and such.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 24, 2022, 01:26:39 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 10:44:56 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 23, 2022, 08:27:08 PM
Sounds like the city itself is a safe haven and any fighting is to be done outside the dimension.
Its similar I guess to how Rodenberry's Pax organization was peaceful. But everywhere around them tended to be very not.
Of so it suggests the place is screening entrants or has some system for dealing with troublemakers.
QuoteJourneys Through the Radiant Citadel features 13 adventures, all written by people of colour. Here's a quick peek at three of them, as details start to emerge across the internet!
Salted Legacy (1st level, Surena Marie). Rival merchant families are at war in the Night Market. Various challenges such as a timed cooking challenge.
Written in Blood (3rd level, Erin Roberts). Based on the black experience in the Southern US, features a haunted farm and commoners who becoming violent; the adventurers need to figure out why without harming them.
Shadow of the Sun (11th level, Justice Arman). Persian-themed, factions in a city ruled by a celestial being are in conflict.
Yeah, cooking challenges DO sound silly... But "Im wondering if they actually said there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets".
Because, I eman, there are a dozen new monsters, and I can't see how you can have factions without intrigues...
There literally can not be no conflict or intrigue when at least two of the adventures are about conflict and intrigue.
They have not said there was none of this
outside the city. So the question is. How do they keep the city peaceful? And is it really as peaceful as they say.
QuoteSalted Legacy is the story of two rival families who make their living in a vibrant night market, one filled with many different in-fiction races like kobolds and dragonborn. Players will literally hold the fate of these two families in their hands. But don't expect this adventure to play out like it usually does in mainstream D&D, which traditionally leverages a multiverse born out of Eurocentric tropes and deep Tolkien and Tolkien-inspired lore.
"My mom is from Thailand, and that's where largely this adventure is inspired from," Marie said during a presentation for the press. "With being first-generation, there is this strange duality that you have to navigate where you want to live the big American dream; you want to live the life that your parents had come from a different country to give you. But at the same time, there's a large part of us as being first-generation that worries about losing our culture, or we aren't even granted full access to it because of the pressure to be more Americanized."
Sy Fy if course had to make a little dig at anyone who might complain about the "wokeness" of the project.
I think the idea behind this is not a bad one really. And were it not WOTC doing this for the usual reasons. We'd be fine with all this. If it was not still a woke product and Written in Blood suggests that even without WOTC's hand it would still have these elements.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2022, 07:48:16 PM
I must be super naive. I assumed when he originally said it, he meant you could use magic to provide basic needs. So food, water and warmth via magic.
And then whatever the hell this has been for the last page and a half happened.
He said to make a utopia possible. Honestly I think it would take a good bit more than that to make a utopia possible, without a complete rewiring of human nature. I guess if you put enough magic on it you could...but utopia starts to get a little fuzzy. I mean, didnt Lucifer rebel in heaven even though he lived in a utopia? I begin to think utopia will have to be defined by its creator and inhabitants, and might require not having too many of them, because one person's heaven could be another's hell.
The only Utopia possible is a Utopia of One. Because what one person will define as Utopia would not be anything like what someone else would.
Someone earlier on the thread wrote about a homesteading couple living an idyllic existence in nature. For them, that might be as close to Utopia as they can get in the world; for me it would be a nightmare.
For me, the life I live right now is just about as close to Utopia as it can credibly be. But I think for 96% of people it wouldn't be even close to that.
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 08:23:46 PM
Well I'm sure WOTC will send SUCKER!, er, Thank You! notes to everyone here who has so graciously given them free advertising.
I should be sending them a note on account of all the books they've just sold for me.
Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 08:46:34 PM
50 bucks is a big ask for what amounts to a big old tavern to rest in.
According to the description, the book isn't primarily a setting book about the Radiant Citadel. It's a collection of 13 short adventures. Here's the official description:
QuoteJourneys through the Radiant Citadel is a collection of thirteen short, stand-alone D&D adventures featuring challenges for character levels 1–14. Each adventure has ties to the Radiant Citadel, a magical city with connections to lands rich with excitement and danger, and each can be run by itself or as part of an ongoing campaign. Explore this rich and varied collection of adventures in magical lands.
- Thirteen new stand-alone adventures spanning levels 1 to 14, each with its own set of maps
- Introduces the Radiant Citadel, a new location on the Ethereal Plane that connects adventurers to richly detailed and distinct corners of the D&D multiverse
- Each adventure can be set in any existing D&D campaign setting or on worlds of your own design
- Introduces eleven new D&D monsters
- There's a story for every adventuring party, from whimsical and light to dark and foreboding and everything in between
It hasn't come out yet, but I suspect it will be similar to the Candlekeep Mysteries book that I do have. That book has about 10 pages about the setting of Candlekeep itself, but almost all the rest of the 224 pages is split among the 17 short adventures. Only one of those adventures is set within Candlekeep itself. The rest all have an initial hook within Candlekeep but then the main action takes place elsewhere.
That certainly might be correct.
But it doesn't change what D&D itself is currently SAYING is "important" about this book. One of the things they consider very important, is that no white people were allowed to participate. Another thing they consider very important, is that their setting is a kind of utopia with no significant crime, no challenges, no lurking monsters, and where they have defunded police in favor of some help & rescue shieldbearers apparently sworn to die rather than engage in battle because social justice.
That's what Woke WoTC is telling us matters.
I'm sorry to insist (and this is the last time, I promise) but where does WotC say there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets"? Could someone provide me a link?
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 24, 2022, 09:59:28 PM
I'm sorry to insist (and this is the last time, I promise) but where does WotC say there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets"? Could someone provide me a link?
Already provided up this thread.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 24, 2022, 08:29:37 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2022, 07:48:16 PM
I must be super naive. I assumed when he originally said it, he meant you could use magic to provide basic needs. So food, water and warmth via magic.
And then whatever the hell this has been for the last page and a half happened.
He said to make a utopia possible. Honestly I think it would take a good bit more than that to make a utopia possible, without a complete rewiring of human nature. I guess if you put enough magic on it you could...but utopia starts to get a little fuzzy. I mean, didnt Lucifer rebel in heaven even though he lived in a utopia? I begin to think utopia will have to be defined by its creator and inhabitants, and might require not having too many of them, because one person's heaven could be another's hell.
The only Utopia possible is a Utopia of One. Because what one person will define as Utopia would not be anything like what someone else would.
Someone earlier on the thread wrote about a homesteading couple living an idyllic existence in nature. For them, that might be as close to Utopia as they can get in the world; for me it would be a nightmare.
For me, the life I live right now is just about as close to Utopia as it can credibly be. But I think for 96% of people it wouldn't be even close to that.
Oh so true!!! My Grandparents grew up in this isolated little house my great grandfather built by hand. A lovely but lonely little house overlooking a sheer cliff with the water source being a natural spring accessed by a bucket on a rope. The freezer was some sort of hole in the ground. Lights were kerosene lamps and candles. No electricity. The phone was one of those crank and horn types you see in old movies. The place was straight out of Lovecraft meets Little House on the Prairie meets X-Men. For them it was great. Especially since we suffer from hereditary random mutations. Some benign, some very not. For anyone else? Madness. :o
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 24, 2022, 09:59:28 PM
I'm sorry to insist (and this is the last time, I promise) but where does WotC say there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets"? Could someone provide me a link?
I commented up above as did someone else where they say its a safe place free of conflict and intrigue.
Then turn around and right in the place are warring cooks. Sure its not (probably) violent conflict and intrigue. But its sure not sounding like happy fun land. One of the illustrations depicts a kobold stealing vegetables. The merchant sure doesnt look happy. How is this "free of conflict and intrigue"???
By the way its a great illistration no matter.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 24, 2022, 09:59:28 PM
I'm sorry to insist (and this is the last time, I promise) but where does WotC say there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets"? Could someone provide me a link?
Eric:
Quote from: Design co-lead, Ajit George
Unlike other cities from the modern D&D lore — places like Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep — the Radiant Citadel isn't overrun by crime lords, demons, or mind flayers. Instead, it's a place where people can live together in peace.
"The Radiant Citadel is not a place of backstabbing, and lurking monsters, and crime just around the corner," George said. "The Radiant Citadel was meant to give players a real hope, a respite, a place to regroup and rebuild after facing the worst and most tragic challenges [...] where they could launch incredible stories and adventures [across the multiverse]."
Of course, that doesn't mean that there isn't enough lore in the book to create more traditional, urban adventures that take place inside the Citadel. However, that's not where the narrative momentum of the anthology is focused. Expect adventures that take place in locations never before seen in D&D — and guidance on how and where they could fit in with previously established locations and lore.
https://www.polygon.com/22989321/dnd-journeys-through-the-radiant-citadel-release-date-price
What makes me scratch my head is how... dull this seems.
Let's go back to Forgotten Realms, everyone's unfavorite vanilla setting. Even the better cities have intrigue, danger just below the surface, or outside threats.
Remember back when we criticized the Strixhaven free adventure because you were working as a fuckin' barista? This is just more of the same. It's like starting a Shadowrun game except it's set in a Star Trek: TNG city.
Quote from: Aglondir on March 25, 2022, 12:39:17 AM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 24, 2022, 09:59:28 PM
I'm sorry to insist (and this is the last time, I promise) but where does WotC say there are "no intrigues, no lurking monsters, no gritty crime-ridden streets"? Could someone provide me a link?
Eric:
Quote from: Design co-lead, Ajit George
Unlike other cities from the modern D&D lore — places like Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep — the Radiant Citadel isn't overrun by crime lords, demons, or mind flayers. Instead, it's a place where people can live together in peace.
"The Radiant Citadel is not a place of backstabbing, and lurking monsters, and crime just around the corner," George said. "The Radiant Citadel was meant to give players a real hope, a respite, a place to regroup and rebuild after facing the worst and most tragic challenges [...] where they could launch incredible stories and adventures [across the multiverse]."
Of course, that doesn't mean that there isn't enough lore in the book to create more traditional, urban adventures that take place inside the Citadel. However, that's not where the narrative momentum of the anthology is focused. Expect adventures that take place in locations never before seen in D&D — and guidance on how and where they could fit in with previously established locations and lore.
https://www.polygon.com/22989321/dnd-journeys-through-the-radiant-citadel-release-date-price
Thank you! I had missed that.
Well, doesn't look entirely bad...like some kind of Tanelorn as someone else said. Not a place to have adventures.
Although I kinda feel they missed the entire point of Tanelorn (or Valinor, Avalon, etc.) not being a place you go to rest or vacation, but mostly to find respite when everything else is lost... and you don't come back that often...
(Other than that, we don't know enough about the product for now... George mentions it is a "vibrant" setting, which means nothing IMO. Anyway, I'm probably skipping it like I've been doing for a few years now)
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 24, 2022, 08:29:37 PM
......
The only Utopia possible is a Utopia of One. Because what one person will define as Utopia would not be anything like what someone else would.
Someone earlier on the thread wrote about a homesteading couple living an idyllic existence in nature. For them, that might be as close to Utopia as they can get in the world; for me it would be a nightmare.
For me, the life I live right now is just about as close to Utopia as it can credibly be. But I think for 96% of people it wouldn't be even close to that.
Yes!!! This exactly. As for me, what this D&D book promises.....like the last two years worth of books promise....is that I'm done giving WotC 5e money.
Keep in mind as we've discussed on the other thread, that the place can not be free of theft, intrigue and strife when one of the listed adventures is about warring shops and the illustration depicts theft and outrage at said theft.
As said in the other thread. This works if such things are low key and more like friendly rivalry and such. But even that means that anyone living there or visiting has to watch their stuff and navigate any vendor rivalries at the very least.
eg: Going to any convention. 8)