TheRPGSite

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game

It's got over 30 days, and already has almost 300% its target.
I backed it, too, and will find a way to use it as a non-story-game;).

I am certain this will be one heck of a beautiful game but I am seriously put off by that 2d20 system. If only they'd add a Call of Cthulhu conversion...

I'm still waiting (borderline impatiently) for the Kickstarter Conan game.

I backed at the all-in PDF level, mostly for reading, assuming that it reaches a point where the SGs unlock a fair few books.

The production quality seems high, but the substance is really yet to be seen. I don't plan on pledging any further until I see the quality of the setting and adventure material.

The mechanics seem to be similar in structure to Savage Worlds, BRP and d20, with attributes, skills and talents. The only thing of note is that bennies form a pool which the GM may also use to do bad stuff (similar to how it works in Fate, Mutants & Masterminds, and FFG Star Wars). I found it functional but it does not nothing specific to support the genre and seems pretty lacklustre.

Though the KS is trucking along relatively well, its offering a lot less than Modiphius's Infinity KS, which is either a sign of he higher licencing cost or an expectation that it will be much more successful.

They brought in so much Howardian and Conan talent from inside and outside gaming, they probably have one of the largest team overhead costs of any RPG ever unless they got those people to donate time.

There's people who definitely have proven Conan chops like Vincent Darlage, the problem, as others have said is, they are building the whole thing on a very weak foundation, a shaky house system that doesn't seem to be very Conanish at all.  

Looking at the 1.5 playtest...

• They have made some changes with regards to Momentum, so you could avoid the narrative control options and just go with what is the equivalent of "extra successes" or "special effects".
• The Threat Pool minigame is still there and is the primary means of "doing awesome shit" thus allowing the GM to "do deadly shit".
• In response to feedback, they've added more granular armor, weapons, hit locations and types of damage.  It seems like Nathan's experience with FFG40k stuff is helping here.
• They still have the ranges as descriptive bands with no numbers, and the concept of moving two "Zones" could be two rooms, could be two neighborhoods, depending on narrative scale.  Jesus, just saying it...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/DWJohnson/Emoticons/emote-suicide.gif)
[/LIST]
Jay Little systems I'm obviously not a big fan of, and I couldn't possibly disagree more with Nathan's "the game design needs to actively constrain the GM" philosophy, but if you have guys like Vincent Darlage and Jason Durall putting out good setting content it could be useful to mine.

I'm usually highly sceptical of games when Skywalker is extremely optimistic and assures me I can cut the narrative stuff.  When even he's not sold on it going in, I'm gonna probably hate myself if the setting doesn't deliver because I can pretty much guess the entire system will be useless to me.

Quote from: Doom;879677I'm still waiting (borderline impatiently) for the Kickstarter Conan game.

So it's now projected for June?  
Dang!



(Can't say I'm all that impressed with the rpg version. I just want the minis for my own games & systems)

I went whole hog on the Monolith boardgame, mostly to have a Cromload of minis for use with RQ6 Conan.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879698I went whole hog on the Monolith boardgame, mostly to have a Cromload of minis for use with RQ6 Conan.

Me too. Despite the delays, I am happy with how they have handled the KS given its success. If they deliver in June, I will be a happy customer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879682I'm usually highly sceptical of games when Skywalker is extremely optimistic and assures me I can cut the narrative stuff.  When even he's not sold on it going in, I'm gonna probably hate myself if the setting doesn't deliver because I can pretty much guess the entire system will be useless to me.

I'm flattered :) TBH the Momentum/Doom thing isn't the turn off as much as the system being lacklustre and bland.

The only RPG I am extremely optimistic about is Sine Nomine's Godbound, and the narrative stuff in that can't be cut as its embedded in the physics of reality :)

I would love it if the setting information and adventures would be available separate from the rules. The system does not strike me as my cup of tea, and I think RuneQuest 6 already is perfect for Hyboria.

The art should be amazing, though, given the names listed...

I would be more interested in a non-system setting book with all the art.

But really, what are they going to do with the setting that wasn't done with all the previous Conan RPGs?

Probably wont be the last we eill see now after the Conan movie announcement. Ive had at least two people suggest I relaunch Red Shetland RPG.

I was interested at first, but the reliance on extra books for different regions... I can't afford all that stuff.

I'm also not all that interested in new rules. A system-agnostic setting book would indeed have been awesome.

Quote from: Necrozius;879793A system-agnostic setting book would indeed have been awesome.

I think that is called the REH Conan novels? :D

Quote from: Omega;879794I think that is called the REH Conan novels? :D

Oh snap!

I meant with all that gorgeous new artwork. I actually don't own any Conan RPGs to use as reference material.

EDIT: I'm glad that you specified the Howard material. Everything that I've read by other authors have been dull or pretty awful (I hate Robert Jordan).

Quote from: Necrozius;879796Oh snap!

I meant with all that gorgeous new artwork. I actually don't own any Conan RPGs to use as reference material.

EDIT: I'm glad that you specified the Howard material. Everything that I've read by other authors have been dull or pretty awful (I hate Robert Jordan).

I don't accept anything written by other authors as canon for Conan. Works for me:).
The only exception, if I were to play a Conan game, would be the GM and the results of the group's actions, but none of us would be playing Conan;).

What's the point?

I mean, there are so many genres and worlds that await their own game, or at least a setting. No need for yet another remake, especially since Conan (or Conan-influenced) games are many and some pretty well made.

Bonus points for Modiphius. Some among their books are IMHO pretty good (Space 188), but some are simply awful (Trellborg).

Quote from: AsenRG;879802I don't accept anything written by other authors as canon for Conan. Works for me:).
The only exception, if I were to play a Conan game, would be the GM and the results of the group's actions, but none of us would be playing Conan;).

...b-b-but if so, then your Conan's adventures are void of Thulsa Doom. ;p

Was going to say the same.

Why exactly do we need Conan the RPG number, what is it now?, 6? 7? 8?

TSR Conan, D&D Conan, d20 Conan, wasnt there a Gurps Conan?, another d20 Conan, At least three "Hyborian Age" RPGs. and those are just the ones I can think of.

And that isnt even including parodies like mine and at least one other from way back.

The artist line-up is insane. It's gonna be one of the prettiest RPG books in history.

The system, well, I'm really iffy on everything Jay Little.

Buying it for the fluff? Bitch, I already did this to Mongoose d20 Conan 1e. Ran a great game on this stuff, using Savage Worlds. I think not even Vincent Darlage will top Vincent Darlage. But I may yet be persuaded.

Hell, if I had as much cash and talent, I'd go for a Hyborian Age cyclopedia (a la A World of Ice and Fire for Westeros/ASoIaF). Screw gamers, collectors are where the money's at. ;)

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879803What's the point?

I mean, there are so many genres and worlds that await their own game, or at least a setting. No need for yet another remake, especially since Conan (or Conan-influenced) games are many and some pretty well made.

Bonus points for Modiphius. Some among their books are IMHO pretty good (Space 188), but some are simply awful (Trellborg).

Let me answer with a quote of the Quickstart.
"It presents the Hyborian Age as an adventure setting unencumbered by the accumulated weight of posthumous collaboration, and is the first such game to be developed with close collaboration—and contributions—by respected Howard scholars and experts."

Yeah, I'm sold at that line alone:).

Quote...b-b-but if so, then your Conan's adventures are void of Thulsa Doom. ;p

Thulsa Doom, and the whole movie, is much more useful as inspiration, than it is as an actual canon for Conan;).

Quote from: The Butcher;879812Hell, if I had as much cash and talent, I'd go for a Hyborian Age cyclopedia (a la A World of Ice and Fire for Westeros/ASoIaF). Screw gamers, collectors are where the money's at. ;)

I'd actually suggest that to the publishers. I'm sure they wouldn't want to turn down anyone's money, if their license allows for it:D!

Quote from: Omega;879805TSR Conan, D&D Conan, d20 Conan, wasnt there a Gurps Conan?, another d20 Conan, At least three "Hyborian Age" RPGs. and those are just the ones I can think of.

By my count:

Zeb Cook Conan (TSR)
Conan modules for TSR D&D
GURPS Conan indeed was done as a supplement book and modules
OGL Conan 1e (Mongoose) (technically not D20 license and didn't require PHB)
OGL Conan 2e (Mongoose) (ditto)

There's also an OSR Conan by Jason Vey, just found it on RPGGeek.

I've been going through the original stories--I think they're okay. The setting really doesn't seem so rich or unique that it needs an extensive sourcebook unless one is obsessive about not contradicting the stories. What it can use is a set of rules to just capture the flavor and the peculiarities of sorcery. Aside from all the games listed above, I'll bet you could easily do an "under the radar" pamphlet akin to Vey's book, for RQ, BoL, or whatever.

Quote from: AsenRG;879819Let me answer with a quote of the Quickstart.
"It presents the Hyborian Age as an adventure setting unencumbered by the accumulated weight of posthumous collaboration, and is the first such game to be developed with close collaboration—and contributions—by respected Howard scholars and experts."

Yeah, I'm sold at that line alone:).

I'm happy for you, but the point stands. It's just same setting, perhaps a bit trimmed down. I'd rather see Kanye... dammit... ;]

...KANE's world, or other timelines by Howard (Kull's, O'Brien's, etc), or play a game focused solely on building your own dynasty/kingdom similar to Conan's (or Conn's) reign over Aquilonia.

Quote from: AsenRG;879819Thulsa Doom, and the whole movie, is much more useful as inspiration, than it is as an actual canon for Conan;).

I'm not talking about movie - it's a bit more complicated. Thulsa Doom is Howard's invention. It's just that he didn't introduced him in Conan's timeline. He is Kull's archenemy. It was Milius who decided that these two should meet.

Still, awesome character. :]

Why Conan source RPG material?  Like source material for anything - Time and Inspiration pure and simple.

The problem is, Howard wasn't a RPG setting builder like Stafford or Barker, he wasn't even a book setting builder like Tolkien, Martin, or even Lieber.  He didn't leave behind all that much in the world-building department, if you're looking for more practical details on how Hyborian Age works on a day to day basis.

So, as an RPG designer, you have to...
1. Go just off what is there and leave whole swaths of the world undetailed and let the GM do it.
2. Infer (so if I know from his writings that Hyperboreans are probably proto-Kurgans, ie, in Howard's view "those who will eventually be Slavs", I can go with that.)
3. Pull from the Pastiche authors
4. Do what RPG setting designers do, make it up (without directly contradicting Howard and trying to infer as much as possible).

Anything someone else makes up, if useful as is, or with tinkering, is something that by definition I don't have to, which saves me a lot of time.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879828I'm not talking about movie - it's a bit more complicated. Thulsa Doom is Howard's invention. It's just that he didn't introduced him in Conan's timeline. He is Kull's archenemy. It was Milius who decided that these two should meet.

Still, awesome character. :]

Kull, Conan, Bran Mak Morn, there's a lineage there, or even a hint of something like Moorcock's Eternal Champion.  Kull showed up in a Bran Mak Morn tale, and there's a lot more dimensional magic and travel going on in Atlantis, so Thulsa Doom really could have shown up in Conan's time.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility given the actual stories.

The Quickstart has been released for free on DTRPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/174829/Robert-E-Howards-CONAN-Roleplaying-Game-Quickstart)/RPGnow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/174829/Robert-E-Howards-CONAN-Roleplaying-Game-Quickstart).

So, go grab and read it, and we can see what's in the latest polished version.

Nice cover of Beyond the Black River.  Always nice to see Balthus represented.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879858Why Conan source RPG material?  Like source material for anything - Time and Inspiration pure and simple.

The problem is, Howard wasn't a RPG setting builder like Stafford or Barker, he wasn't even a book setting builder like Tolkien, Martin, or even Lieber.  He didn't leave behind all that much in the world-building department, if you're looking for more practical details on how Hyborian Age works on a day to day basis.

This I know oh-so well.

When doing a sourcebook RPG there are two routes.
A: Make a real sourcebook. Stick to what is in the source material. These are really popular with fans.
B: Make a cash in. Infer from what is known or more often just make stuff up. Fill in gaps with your own equivalent of fan fiction. These are not sourcebooks despite what many will claim. These are unpopular with fans wanting a sourcebook.

This is the designers dilemma. The source material may be scant on certain details. But the second you deviate from source it increasingly stops being a sourcebook. If you are working just off inferrance then you can pad out a little more without falling off the cliff. But once you start making up cultures, and inserting your own kingdoms and characters you have stepped right out of sourcebook land and into fanfiction land.

I would be interested in a setting book that is 100% REH.

But considering the Conan line being discussed, I am smelling fan fic to pad pages.

Heck, I'd be interested in a setting book that is 100% Marvel Conan. That would actually be really fun too.

Quote from: The Butcher;879812Screw gamers, collectors are where the money's at. ;)

Sad but true.

Quote from: Spinachcat;879884I would be interested in a setting book that is 100% REH.

But considering the Conan line being discussed, I am smelling fan fic to pad pages.

Heck, I'd be interested in a setting book that is 100% Marvel Conan. That would actually be really fun too.




Sad but true.

100% Marvel Conan/Red Sonja would be epic.  However, just because Marvel, Robert Jordan or whoever had the license doesn't make it any less "fanfiction" than Omega's would be.

Mongoose had to do fanfiction for their Conan.
Green Ronin had to do fanfiction for their SIFRP.

That's fine.  I want them to.  I have everything Kull, Conan, Bran Mak Morn, from Howard, Marvel or Dark Horse.  Someone to catalog all that for me would be useful, but again, I'm looking for good, cross-referenced, fact-checked fan fiction that can kick my brain into high gear.

Did you ever watch House?  Remember how he needed a team to bounce stuff off of, even to the point of using passengers on a plane when he was by himself?  There's a part of my creativity that works that way.  Coming up with world details whole cloth is one thing.  Taking something and running with it, even if you end up with something completely different at the end is a different form of creativity and one I'm better at.

Quote from: Spinachcat;879884But considering the Conan line being discussed, I am smelling fan fic to pad pages.

As long as everything that is "fan fic" is (a) clearly identified as such, and (b) compatible with canon (in this case, what REH wrote), I'm usually okay with it in gaming supplements.  It's pretty much unavoidable, really, unless you're just statting up REH's stories as adventures.

As an aside: it's not clear to me why everything REH wrote is not now public domain.  I don't understand the licensing issue here at all.

Also, is this issue unique to Conan?  So if I wanted to write up a RQ6 or Crypts & Things supplement based on Kull, would there be any legal issue?  (How could there be?)

I mean, what the hell is this?

Quote© 2016 Conan Properties International LLC ("CPI"). CONAN, CONAN THE BARBARIAN, HYBORIA and related logos, characters, names, and distinctive likenesses thereof are trademarks or registered trademarks of CPI). All rights reserved. ROBERT E. HOWARD and related logos, characters, names, and distinctive likenesses thereof are trademarks or registered trademarks of Robert E. Howard Properties LLC. All rights reserved.

REH died in 1936. How can his works not be public domain now?

The works may be the public domain, but "CONAN", "HYBORIA", "ROBERT E. HOWARD", etc. are trademarked, so you can't use them to sell any Conan-related merchandise.

I doubt any of us really knows better than what you can find here under copyright: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Robert_Ervin_Howard

Note the words "called into question". It's probably like "Happy Birthday to You"--nobody's bothered to scrape up the cash to publish something that will provoke a lawsuit and then mount a defense in court.

Quote from: Akrasia;879897I mean, what the hell is this?



REH died in 1936. How can his works not be public domain now?

This one I can answer.

A company called CPI registered some of the words as TMs. Its been brought into dispute if that registry was legal or not.

CPI or someone else TMed Red Sonja. Which is also in dispute as the character is a fabrication of Marvel and has nothing to do with Red Sonya of Rogatino other than both being fighting women and redheads.

REHP LLC is or was the caretakers of the works and may still retain licenses. Weather or not thats still true I do not know.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879859Kull, Conan, Bran Mak Morn, there's a lineage there, or even a hint of something like Moorcock's Eternal Champion.  Kull showed up in a Bran Mak Morn tale, and there's a lot more dimensional magic and travel going on in Atlantis, so Thulsa Doom really could have shown up in Conan's time.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility given the actual stories.

I'd be interested in such a meta-realm, more than I'm interested in yet another attempt to present same story, with a few tweaks and cuts here and there.

What's an English equivalent of "the dish re-heated and served again" saying?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879939What's an English equivalent of "the dish re-heated and served again" saying?

Rehashed.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879941Rehashed.

Memorized. :thanx:

Rehashed would be the metaphorical version.
The literal term when applied to food is leftovers, but that's usually not used the same way.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879828I'm happy for you, but the point stands. It's just same setting, perhaps a bit trimmed down. I'd rather see Kanye... dammit... ;]

...KANE's world, or other timelines by Howard (Kull's, O'Brien's, etc), or play a game focused solely on building your own dynasty/kingdom similar to Conan's (or Conn's) reign over Aquilonia.

I don't see a reason to not play a dynastic game with the current setting material. Setting material is just that, setting, especially for the many people here not interested in the system:).
As for your desire for Solomon Kane, I've got Savage Worlds of Solomon Kane and would recommend it. But I'm more interested in Conan;).

QuoteI'm not talking about movie - it's a bit more complicated. Thulsa Doom is Howard's invention. It's just that he didn't introduced him in Conan's timeline. He is Kull's archenemy. It was Milius who decided that these two should meet.

Yes, I know. But it's been said already that this game focuses on the REH's works of Conan, so I assumed you must mean the movie. As you say yourself, TD never meets Conan in REH's works.

QuoteStill, awesome character. :]

Well...opinions may differ here, but I'd tend to agree;).

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879939I'd be interested in such a meta-realm, more than I'm interested in yet another attempt to present same story, with a few tweaks and cuts here and there.

What's an English equivalent of "the dish re-heated and served again" saying?

I think I know. It's "what you give to the dog", right:D?
Also, I'd be utterly uninterested in a Marvel's, Jordan's or anyone else's attempts to write Conan, so I wouldn't purchase such a game.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879858Why Conan source RPG material?  Like source material for anything - Time and Inspiration pure and simple.

The problem is, Howard wasn't a RPG setting builder like Stafford or Barker, he wasn't even a book setting builder like Tolkien, Martin, or even Lieber.  He didn't leave behind all that much in the world-building department, if you're looking for more practical details on how Hyborian Age works on a day to day basis.

So, as an RPG designer, you have to...
1. Go just off what is there and leave whole swaths of the world undetailed and let the GM do it.
2. Infer (so if I know from his writings that Hyperboreans are probably proto-Kurgans, ie, in Howard's view "those who will eventually be Slavs", I can go with that.)
3. Pull from the Pastiche authors
4. Do what RPG setting designers do, make it up (without directly contradicting Howard and trying to infer as much as possible).

Anything someone else makes up, if useful as is, or with tinkering, is something that by definition I don't have to, which saves me a lot of time.

Since they are bringing REH scholars, I hope they are going to go for option 2, which is, frankly, the one I'm most interested in (followed by 4 and 1, period).

Quote from: CRKrueger;879859Kull, Conan, Bran Mak Morn, there's a lineage there, or even a hint of something like Moorcock's Eternal Champion.  Kull showed up in a Bran Mak Morn tale, and there's a lot more dimensional magic and travel going on in Atlantis, so Thulsa Doom really could have shown up in Conan's time.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility given the actual stories.

It is possible, but I'm not sure I'd like an emphasis on dimensional magic in my S&S. Now, if we're struggling against Granbretan on Howkmoon's side, or instead of him, maybe;). But to me, Howkmoon is much more Swords and Planet, and less "barbarians vs servants of Chthulhu".

Quote from: AsenRG;879945Since they are bringing REH scholars, I hope they are going to go for option 2, which is, frankly, the one I'm most interested in (followed by 4 and 1, period).

That is, in fact, what we are doing.

We're metaphorically stripping away the layers of paint that have been applied to the IP and taking a fresh new look at it, and extrapolating from there.

Our assumptions and interpretations may be surprising to fans more familiar with the "furry loincloth" version of Conan, but we're hoping that what we create will ring truer to the spirit of REH.

Quote from: AsenRG;879945It is possible, but I'm not sure I'd like an emphasis on dimensional magic in my S&S. Now, if we're struggling against Granbretan on Howkmoon's side, or instead of him, maybe;). But to me, Howkmoon is much more Swords and Planet, and less "barbarians vs servants of Chthulhu".

While there's a lot of appeal to such things, I am of the mind that they're more interesting in story form. When people talk about a Conan meets Solomon Kane crossover (which has been suggested), for example, there's not much room there for the players, who will likely feel secondary to someone else's story.

Quote from: AsenRG;879945I don't see a reason to not play a dynastic game with the current setting material. Setting material is just that, setting, especially for the many people here not interested in the system:).

Oh, it's entirely possible to play almost any type of adventures under any setting, however I think that when the game perfectly matches players' needs, it might result with unparalleled synergy. After all, why would you choose, eeeee, Pathfinder, for in spaaaaaaace... adventures, when there are games specifically dealing with the theme?

In this specific example, I think about elements usually left for sourcebooks, like fortress building, kingdom management. You know, being not only a PC who gets his hands dirty, but also an administrator, a conqueror, a general, a king... a god. ;]

Quote from: AsenRG;879945As for your desire for Solomon Kane, I've got Savage Worlds of Solomon Kane and would recommend it. But I'm more interested in Conan;).

I thought about Wagner's KANE. I forgot about Solomon. ;]

Quote from: AsenRG;879945Yes, I know. But it's been said already that this game focuses on the REH's works of Conan, so I assumed you must mean the movie. As you say yourself, TD never meets Conan in REH's works.

Well...opinions may differ here, but I'd tend to agree;).

Exactly. Somehow... Conan's world seems kind of... incomplete without a few iconic characters coming from non-canon sources.

Come to think about it, it could've been awesome to play as sorcerer-king, similar to those ones Conan meets during his numerous adventures - part evil, part alien, who erect grim castles and strongholds in the middle of nowhere, meddle with alien powers, or lead whole civilizations from the heights of their exotic ziggurats filled with wenches, wearing harem suits...

Mmmmmmmmm... Ziggurats.

Ahem.

You know, part Thulsa Doom, part Gilgamesh...

Quote from: AsenRG;879945I think I know. It's "what you give to the dog", right:D?

Around here we're using "reheated cutlets/pork chops" when we mean "nothing new". ;]

Quote from: AsenRG;879945Also, I'd be utterly uninterested in a Marvel's, Jordan's or anyone else's attempts to write Conan, so I wouldn't purchase such a game.

I would give green light to people who toy with possibilities, rather than stick to "same old, same old" story. Conan meets Cthulhu (with a strong emphasis on Lovecraftian Mythos), aka "Barbarians & Tentacles", or Howard's compiled savage worlds, aka "the Era of Muscles"... Things like that. ;]

Quote from: Jason D;879949While there's a lot of appeal to such things, I am of the mind that they're more interesting in story form. When people talk about a Conan meets Solomon Kane crossover (which has been suggested), for example, there's not much room there for the players, who will likely feel secondary to someone else's story.

I disagree. There's no "not much room" when either Conan, or Kane, or any other character of such caliber (or all at once) enter the campaign directly, and participate actively. There's almost no room at all. ;]

However, present them more as "force of nature", operating from the background, using player characters as pawns in their own games and you'll get plenty of room that way.

Working for aging king Conan of Aquilonia (perhaps only years of months until Conn takes over his father's throne), not unlike his friends Trocero & Prospero, being send to distant parts of his kingdom to deal with some monsters, savages, or rebellious generals. Joining a monster-hunting society founded/supported by Solomon Kane... Things like that.

btw, Conan's and Solomon Kane crossover? That's kind of incompatible to work out, isn't it? The difference in time, history, knowledge, inventions...

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879950I thought about Wagner's KANE. I forgot about Solomon. ;]

I'm a huge fan of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane, but I can't honestly imagine what there would be to do in his world. A recent thread on Facebook had someone enthusing about an RPG, and I'm baffled. KEW's worldbuilding wasn't that deep, and there's not even a single default timeframe for Kane's career.

The closest thing to player characters in those stories are the crusading paladin and his crew, and the ill-fated blonde barbarian who had the misfortune to fall in love with Kane's "girlfriend".

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879953btw, Conan's and Solomon Kane crossover? That's kind of incompatible to work out, isn't it? The difference in time, history, knowledge, inventions...

Kull made it to visit Bran Mak Morn, so it's not inconceivable that Conan could make the leap to visit Kane.

There are several common threads, once you look at the Mythos, but there are also a number of conflicting issues that make the chronology a bit wacky.

That's all right, though... "The Hyborian Age" essay describes the nitty-gritty on all of the major historical events, but overlooks the incredibly powerful and significant Acheronian empire entirely, because REH hadn't made them up yet.

Quote from: Jason D;879949That is, in fact, what we are doing.

We're metaphorically stripping away the layers of paint that have been applied to the IP and taking a fresh new look at it, and extrapolating from there.

Our assumptions and interpretations may be surprising to fans more familiar with the "furry loincloth" version of Conan, but we're hoping that what we create will ring truer to the spirit of REH.

Yay:)!

QuoteWhile there's a lot of appeal to such things, I am of the mind that they're more interesting in story form. When people talk about a Conan meets Solomon Kane crossover (which has been suggested), for example, there's not much room there for the players, who will likely feel secondary to someone else's story.

Well, I would assume they mean the settings, not the lead characters themselves.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879950Oh, it's entirely possible to play almost any type of adventures under any setting, however I think that when the game perfectly matches players' needs, it might result with unparalleled synergy. After all, why would you choose, eeeee, Pathfinder, for in spaaaaaaace... adventures, when there are games specifically dealing with the theme?

In this specific example, I think about elements usually left for sourcebooks, like fortress building, kingdom management. You know, being not only a PC who gets his hands dirty, but also an administrator, a conqueror, a general, a king... a god. ;]

Well, I would hope for a supplement on that account. But those shouldn't be too different from historical sources, since Howard was going for a historical-without-confines feel, himself.

QuoteI thought about Wagner's KANE. I forgot about Solomon. ;]

Shame on you:)! We're discussing REH, after all.

QuoteExactly. Somehow... Conan's world seems kind of... incomplete without a few iconic characters coming from non-canon sources.

Nope, exactly the opposite feeling is what I get. "A few iconic characters from other (than REH) sources" would make it not-really-Conan's-world.
It doesn't help that in my book, not a single author that tried to write Conan managed to write the exact same character that REH was writing about.

QuoteCome to think about it, it could've been awesome to play as sorcerer-king, similar to those ones Conan meets during his numerous adventures - part evil, part alien, who erect grim castles and strongholds in the middle of nowhere, meddle with alien powers, or lead whole civilizations from the heights of their exotic ziggurats filled with wenches, wearing harem suits...

Of course. Also suitable for a supplement. Maybe they even have unlocked one already, I haven't checked since yesterday...;)

QuoteMmmmmmmmm... Ziggurats.

Ahem.

:D

QuoteYou know, part Thulsa Doom, part Gilgamesh...

I wonder what should be the mechanic for "you meet someone very much like Conan and he splits your skull", though.

QuoteAround here we're using "reheated cutlets/pork chops" when we mean "nothing new". ;]

I still like my version better, it's more telling of the use I have for pastiche versions:D!

QuoteI would give green light to people who toy with possibilities, rather than stick to "same old, same old" story. Conan meets Cthulhu (with a strong emphasis on Lovecraftian Mythos), aka "Barbarians & Tentacles", or Howard's compiled savage worlds, aka "the Era of Muscles"... Things like that. ;]

I doubt anyone can prevent that, or wants to. But again, I'd like the corebook to be focused on Conan-like stories;).

Well, man, you kind of evoked a demon, here. ;]

Quote from: Jason D;879955I'm a huge fan of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane, but I can't honestly imagine what there would be to do in his world. A recent thread on Facebook had someone enthusing about an RPG, and I'm baffled. KEW's worldbuilding wasn't that deep, and there's not even a single default timeframe for Kane's career.

The closest thing to player characters in those stories are the crusading paladin and his crew, and the ill-fated blonde barbarian who had the misfortune to fall in love with Kane's "girlfriend".

I'm surprised to hear that. When I think "Kane", I recall quite interesting, albeit dark, cruel and violent fantasy world, full of ancient mysteries and alien elements not unlike those found in Lovecraftian stories. There are also recurring "the higher you are, the louder you fall" and "all will perish" themes, that add another layer of experience here.

Remember Bloodstone? I've read it 20+ years ago, but if memory serves, we first meet Kane as an "advisor", who manages to convince some king to lend him a group of soldier and leads them to swamps in hope to come back with riches (or whatever his excuse was). At expense of his companions' lives he discovers ancient ruins and a source of enormous power (the Bloodstone itself) he later puts to use and (once again, if memory serves) becomes a ruler himself, only to renounce the power when he realizes he isn't its master, but merely a servant.

Or, Darkness Weaves. Kane joins a sorceress, serves her, leads her armies, becomes her equal in her plan to get a revenge and become the mistress of the world (courtesy of dark magic and an union with ancient, Lovecraftian-like creatures called Scylredi). Of course shit hits the fan and near the end of the story Kane once again is left poor and homeless with a burning empire behind his back.

Then there are minor stories, like the one where Kane arrives at some dying city/village, chased by some "good guys", wandering monster slayers who perceive him as an abomination and want to get rid of him. The world and its current state are unknown, all what matters is the Kane and his survival.

This leads to two discoveries:

ONE: The timeframe isn't as important for Wagner's stories as the protagonist.

Therefore, there's no need for a high level of details. The world changes - each time Kane becomes bored enough to pay some attention to the world and its inhabitants, he meets new civilizations, new societies. From the perspective of the protagonist(s), the world is irrelevant, and all will fade away sooner or later.

This forces the change in approach to the way a setting is constructed.

TWO: Wagner's protagonist is highly adaptable, perhaps no less than Conan himself, but his adaptability is just a survival mechanism guarding the immutable core. No matter what's his position and current goals, Kane is always the same: cursed with immortality, moving through shadows, entering the play whenever he feels like so, in hope to gain some answers, find the solution to the problem of eternal life or, at least banish the boredom.

Therefore, from the perspective of RPG, the classes, abilities, skills and such are only secondary to the effects of Kane's curse. No matter who they are, no matter how they are constructed, PCs are of same breed, and this changes whole approach to the ruleset.

There aren't that many games featuring similar PCs. Sure, there's WoD with their vampires, there are ways to gain the immortality and such, but there aren't that many games that deal with this kind of characters by default.

Combine both those "discoveries" and you're left not with "underdeveloped, borderline sloppy design with same characters all the time", but with a challenge.

• How to prepare some clever timeframe generator (for the purpose of perceiving how the world changed while the PCs were "minding their own business"?
• What's the proper way to deal with "so I spent last 1000 years practicing martial arts" problem?
  
• While there's no need for a well developed world, there's a need need for some continuity, so there's a room for a few dozen thousands of years of history.
• Even the way scenarios are made shouldn't be left untouched - there's hardly any place for FedEx/I need you to deal with a local menace (more precisely, low level monster) style of missions - they should make place for more "curse"-centered ones. There's an artifact that allows to reshape the reality itself. There's a place where people teach the important skill. There's been a talk about a wizard who can unmake the curse, or change some part of it, so that you don't die just like that, but it's almost impossible to find him...
  
• While at that, what are details of the curse? How players got it, what are its effects? Does it change with time, or introduces some "reset" every a few thousands of years? Is there a way, some terms to get rid of it, or perhaps pass onto someone else?

Etc, etc...

Bottom line: I'm convinced, that Wagner's works carry enough source of inspiration to prepare not only an interesting game, but also quite original one. At this point, I'd rather welcome something along the lines of what I've been blabbering here, rather than Conan: installment 3284764876 "we got rid of Vanaheim material, yay!". ;]

Quote from: Jason D;879956Kull made it to visit Bran Mak Morn, so it's not inconceivable that Conan could make the leap to visit Kane.

There are several common threads, once you look at the Mythos, but there are also a number of conflicting issues that make the chronology a bit wacky.

That's all right, though... "The Hyborian Age" essay describes the nitty-gritty on all of the major historical events, but overlooks the incredibly powerful and significant Acheronian empire entirely, because REH hadn't made them up yet.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of an adventure or a campaign based on the concept. I simply see no way to prepare a coherent setting covering Conan and Solomon Kane crossover. I mean, I see it, but it would be so full of bullshit and non-canon elements, that it'd reduce it to a peculiarity rather than a setting people would like to play. ;]

That's of course my assumption only!

I think what you're describing (if I grasp it) has merit, doesn't to my mind mesh very well with the whole "adventurer group" framework that most popular fantasy roleplaying games emphasize and support.

The first game I seriously worked on was Amber Diceless Roleplaying, a fantasy setting explicitly about immortals who move through highly variable worlds ("Shadows") and have rivalries that can play out over the course of centuries, if not millennia.  

It's a very particular game, with a very particular playstyle that might mesh well with what you're suggesting, but the lack of teleporting/Trumps/interdimensional travel presents a huge design challenge in giving immortal PCs free agency and keeping them together for "adventures". How would you solve those problems?

You also stated: "The world and its current state are unknown, all what matters is the Kane and his survival."

Which is the point I was making. The world and its state are unknown, and are utterly of secondary importance.

What would be the point of a Kane-based game at all then?

With Conan, we're clearly interested in exploring the Hyborian Age, and featuring heroes like Conan, Valeria, Strom, Taurus, Belit, etc., in one of fantasy literature's most enduring fantasy settings. Howard thought enough of his world to provide a map and delve deeply into its mythic history. Wagner wrote far more words about Kane than Howard did about Conan, but the relative lack of any gazeteer information (and the scarcity of maps) indicates his true emphasis.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to hear why a Kane game would be a cool idea. I'm just drawing a blank as to how it'd work and what it would contain. It feels more like the framework for a campaign to be laid over an existing game setting than an actual game in and of itself.

Hey Jason: limited budget here. Can I make do with just the core book to run a campaign in this setting? Are the supplementary books just further fleshing out of these Nations or are they pretty much needed if the PCs decide to visit Stygia  (or whatever)? In other words, can one of my players pick a thief archetype without the book on thief campaigns?

Quote from: AsenRG;879960Shame on you:)! We're discussing REH, after all.

But I like Kane! And I find him often more Conan-ian than Conan himself, especially in comparison to non-Howardian Conan. ;]

Quote from: AsenRG;879960Nope, exactly the opposite feeling is what I get. "A few iconic characters from other (than REH) sources" would make it not-really-Conan's-world.
It doesn't help that in my book, not a single author that tried to write Conan managed to write the exact same character that REH was writing about.

A FANBOY! Bring the torches! :O
Just kidding. We're civilized folk and 'round these parts, we use guillotines. ;]

In the end, it's crucial for everyone to understand that we're all entitled to create our own "canons" and accept whatever we want, so if you care about pure-REH only, there's no need to discuss it.

Quote from: AsenRG;879960I wonder what should be the mechanic for "you meet someone very much like Conan and he splits your skull", though.

I think that simple "roll PER" followed by "reason check" should tell the majority of players to not meddle with that loincloth wearing steroid abuser who prefers atlantean sword over a spiked mace. ;]

Quote from: Jason D;879970What would be the point of a Kane-based game at all then?

Allow me to reduce your comment to this single line.

I thought I already addressed that, by giving the examples of Kane's exploits and putting the emphasis on a curse. At first glance this isn't much, but let's not lie ourselves: plenty of good, critically acclaimed games might be reduced to a single statement. For example (and that's why I spoke about it earlier), WoD-Vampire is a game following exactly same idea: immortal cursed characters trying to continue their existence in spite of their affliction.

Point is: you can build whole world and long chain of events, spanning across millennia based on such a "tiny" thing alone, and yes, party of characters fit the theme very well - be it a group sharing same curse, trying to get rid of it, people who seek cursed ones and slaying/exploiting them, or simply accomplices/minions of such beings. Add "you're coming from a special breed, families that raise my servants for countless generations", because why not?

But Kane's adventures doesn't have to be reduced to his curse alone, and doesn't have to rely on it all the time. He builds and destroys empires, plots and is betrayed, travels and discovers things that surprises even him, becomes many things on the way, forms alliances and leaves piles of corpses behind. There's a strong potential for adventures here, like in all cases of "the world is your oyster" more or less generic settings.

In addition: let's not forget, that while a detailed setting featuring some story arc is indeed a strong advantage, it's neither prerequisite for a good game, nor a guarantee of a success.

Finally, I'd like to observe that what we're doing here is merely a speculation about a concept, a possibility. We "chase clouds", so to speak. Neither of us takes the idea of actually writing Wagnerian game seriously, so it's not that we need to develop actually working setting and a rueleset here.

"It can be done" assumption is what I'm happy with. ;]

Hi Jason, good to hear you're going back to first principles with Hyboria and then working with the scholars to flesh things out with a more authentic premise.

BTW, whose idea was it to rename Threat and Luck to Doom and Fortune, was that you?  It was a nice move in any case.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879982But I like Kane! And I find him often more Conan-ian than Conan himself, especially in comparison to non-Howardian Conan. ;]

Glad to hear that. Now look at what you wrote again:p.
Another character is more Conan-like than the non-Howardian treatments of Conan.
And you wonder why I don't want non-Howardian treatments in my source material:D?

QuoteA FANBOY! Bring the torches! :O
Just kidding. We're civilized folk and 'round these parts, we use guillotines. ;]

Sorry, I didn't know you do that with fanboys. Good you admitted about that custom in time.
So, I'm supposed to behead you now, for being a fanboy of non-Howardian Conan:D?
It would pain me to do so, but I shall obey the custom;).

QuoteIn the end, it's crucial for everyone to understand that we're all entitled to create our own "canons" and accept whatever we want, so if you care about pure-REH only, there's no need to discuss it.

Indeed. I'm just glad the newest RPG takes that same approach.

QuoteI think that simple "roll PER" followed by "reason check" should tell the majority of players to not meddle with that loincloth wearing steroid abuser who prefers atlantean sword over a spiked mace. ;]

"Loincloth-wearing steroid abuser"? I said "like Conan". Not "like Gov. Schwartzie".
(Yes, the body type and muscle structure would be different according to Howard's descriptions - think Cassius Clay or a MMA fighter. By contrast, Schwartzie-like characters feature in at least two REH stories, and in both cases lose in unarmed combat from Conan and Almuric, respectively:)).

And either way, it seems that meeting an Angry Conan would be something the GM does to your Evil Priest when you used too much meta-mechanics and allowed him to bring you some major pain;).

QuoteAllow me to reduce your comment to this single line.

Nooooo!!!
Just kidding;). Hash it out with Jason D (I'm a backer, I don't work for him:p).
But I can't avoid to add this comment.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879965This leads to two discoveries:

ONE: The timeframe isn't as important for Wagner's stories as the protagonist.

Therefore, there's no need for a high level of details. The world changes - each time Kane becomes bored enough to pay some attention to the world and its inhabitants, he meets new civilizations, new societies. From the perspective of the protagonist(s), the world is irrelevant, and all will fade away sooner or later.

This forces the change in approach to the way a setting is constructed.

TWO: Wagner's protagonist is highly adaptable, perhaps no less than Conan himself, but his adaptability is just a survival mechanism guarding the immutable core. No matter what's his position and current goals, Kane is always the same: cursed with immortality, moving through shadows, entering the play whenever he feels like so, in hope to gain some answers, find the solution to the problem of eternal life or, at least banish the boredom.

Therefore, from the perspective of RPG, the classes, abilities, skills and such are only secondary to the effects of Kane's curse. No matter who they are, no matter how they are constructed, PCs are of same breed, and this changes whole approach to the ruleset.

I see you're looking for a way to reskin Trollbabe;). It's been done, according to some Actual Play I read (and the character was like Tulsa Doom, now that I think of it).

Quote from: Necrozius;879972Hey Jason: limited budget here. Can I make do with just the core book to run a campaign in this setting? Are the supplementary books just further fleshing out of these Nations or are they pretty much needed if the PCs decide to visit Stygia  (or whatever)? In other words, can one of my players pick a thief archetype without the book on thief campaigns?

There is info on each country in the core book, and you can create any  archetype with the info provided therein.

The sourcebooks will expand the world descriptions and provide guidelines for running those types of campaigns, and providing extra options.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879988Hi Jason, good to hear you're going back to first principles with Hyboria and then working with the scholars to flesh things out with a more authentic premise.

BTW, whose idea was it to rename Threat and Luck to Doom and Fortune, was that you?  It was a nice move in any case.

I honestly can't remember, as many names were suggested by Benn, Nathan, Jeff, Chris, and myself, but I know I approved heartily of both suggestions.

This should be the ultimate Hyborian Age RPG, and as an REH disciple who has run many Hyborian Age campaigns using different systems - I should be all over this. However, despite the massive talent behind the project I cannot get myself to pull the trigger on the kickstarter.

The art, writing, production, and source material should be nothing short of brilliant, but after downloading the quickstart I simply cannot fathom the purpose of the momentum and doom mechanics that are woven into the fabric of this game system (I have no problem with the basic 2d20 short dice pool mechanic, it's actually kinda slick).

If someone could explain to me how the game-within-a-game of momentum pools and doom points have anything to do with invoking the style, feel, or concepts in REH's stories then I am all in.  Maybe it is just a lack of transparency and I can't see what these are supposed to represent or do.  I want to love this game, but what the heck are all of these meta-mechanics about, and how are they supposed to contribute to my "100% pure REH" experience?

No disrespect intended, I just don't get it

QuoteThat is, in fact, what we are doing.

We're metaphorically stripping away the layers of paint that have been applied to the IP and taking a fresh new look at it, and extrapolating from there.

Our assumptions and interpretations may be surprising to fans more familiar with the "furry loincloth" version of Conan, but we're hoping that what we create will ring truer to the spirit of REH.

This seems the best possible approach to the setting.  I admire the effort.

From what I understand, REH really wanted to write historical adventure fiction, and though he was quite the history buff, he felt constrained and created the Hyborian Age as a sort of quasi-historical proxy and filled it full of historical analogues both real and imagined (he wasn't alone in this, reinventing history was a pastime for 1930's social Darwinists).  If I was serious about filling in the blanks of REHs world, I'd go back to the history and metaphysics books that he was reading (of course I am sure Jason and Jeff are way ahead of me on this).

However, filling the holes in the Hyborian Age will probably be a lot easier than stripping away popular assumptions built around comics, Arnie, 80's barbarian flicks and the great legacy of Frazetta.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880031(...) No disrespect intended, I just don't get it

I think you do get it.

QuoteI think you do get it.

Well, if you are saying what you are actually not saying, and what you are not saying is true - then that is... umm frankly crapptastic, and I am  truly bummed at saving several hundred dollars.

The next question I guess is why invest all of this money and talent into a system that doesn't fit?

I mean Mongoose Conan didn't really fit (kind of a square peg), but then they were riding the wave of d20 enthusiasm.  If your right, then someone at Modiphius must have that much hindsight. Surely they know that system implies setting and with all the talk of being true to the setting... gads.

Of course, maybe you and I are wrong... anybody?

Well after reading the quickstart rules I've decided that this game isn't for me: the Damage Dice mechanic (or whatever it's called) on its own feels overly complicated and convoluted for my tastes.

But it looks like it's gonna be a great and successful product. Kudos and best of luck!

Quote from: Madprofessor;880058Of course, maybe you and I are wrong... anybody?

What are you hoping to get here? Maybe you should post more precise questions so that people who know 2d20 can reply? Or are you just looking for someone to tell you "yeah, it is awesome...it rocks on toast!!!" ?
Because there surely are people who think that the system does what it needs to do...maybe those people are a bit rarer on this forum here, but you can find enough places on the internet where people gush over the game.

In short - you will always find people on both sides of the fence.

For myself, i am very skeptical if 2d20 can really transport the Conan feeling. I am sure the setting will be researched well and the art will also be appropriate (if a bit all over the place, style-wise if the QS is any indication) but for me, the mechanics do not say "Conan!!! By Crom!!!" ... but again, that's just another vote on one of the sides of this particular fence... .

Quote from: Anglachel;880063if 2d20 can really transport the Conan feeling.  

I don't doubt that it will feel like Conan. But that's not hard to achieve. Even D20 Mongoose Conan felt like Conan.

My problem with the system is just "why"? Why intentionaly go with something so weird when something more traditional (i.e. more like D&D)would easily suffice.

I mean, the damage system is kind of out there. Roll a pool of d6s and count the 1s, 2s, 5s, and 6s... Wut?

Quote from: Enlightened;880065I don't doubt that it will feel like Conan.

q.e.d. :D

Well, the why is pretty simple ... they're a business...they have an own house-system...they want to make that known/popular... and done.

Sure, they could have licensed an existing system or used one of the open ones...but to be honest, i would not have either, if i were a game company with an in-house system.

As a roleplayer, i agree with you though. I would have loved a Conan game for RQ6...no better fitting system out there...not now nor ever :p Oh well...

QuoteWhat are you hoping to get here? Maybe you should post more precise questions so that people who know 2d20 can reply? Or are you just looking for someone to tell you "yeah, it is awesome...it rocks on toast!!!" ?

Right, good question?  I just want to know what the momentum and doom point meta-mechanics are supposed to represent.  Why were they chosen to represent, emulate or simulate REH's stories in the Hyborian Age?  

A lot of mechanics (like HP, saving throws, or pass/fail skills, for example) are just intuitive.  Others, like Sanity for CoC, or passions for Pendragon are bolt-ons that make sense for the genre/setting.  I don't see the function of momentum or doom in this game/setting except that they might be nifty for there own sake - so I assumed I might be missing something.

Even still, I wouldn't normally have a problem with that, but there are some implications of these mechanics that are causing dissonance in my brain and with my group.  I'll explain:

First, PCs create and use momentum to do cinematic and super-human things.  I personally don't see REH's Conan stories as all that cinematic. The comics and movies maybe, but not the original stories.  Perhaps that's just my subjective interpretation so anyway...

Second, you have this weird group dynamic with momentum.  PC A rolls 3 successes sneaking or riding a horse or something, and then PC B can use PC A successes to swing a sword better, etc.  So in my demo with quickstart last night there was this weird situation where  players were, out of character, plotting their resource expenditure cooperation:  "Cool I got 3 successes, now you can use my extra successes to get the hell out of there."  That wasn't so horrible as a game, but I felt it was decidedly not sword and sorcery or REH Conan where every man survives by his strength and wits and forges his own destiny.

Third, the PCs built momentum by giving me doom points (which I could use against them) which created this atmosphere of some kind of cosmic balance or karma: "I can do really cool stuff any time I want but then universe will build up to some cosmic backlash." -  Am I wrong or is that antithetical to REH Conan?  In REH, there is no balance in nature.  The universe doesn't care! Conan is about man carving his own destiny out of an uncaring and immoral universe.  Isn't it?  Or is it a world where you tempt fate by doing super human and cinematic stuff?  That latter is what the mechanics imply?

Furthermore (at the risk of making this sound like a rant), I don't get doom points.  I mean, aren't they redundant?  The GM is already omnipotent within the game world.  Why does he need to accumulate points to make the NPC's tougher or whatever?  Can't I already do that?  Why empower the omnipotent? 1 plus infinity is still infinity.  All it does is force me to screw with the players when I am perfectly capable of making that decision myself.  

All of that is fine, but I don't understand the design decision.  How do any of these mechanics make for a more authentically REH Hyborian Age RPG?  System implies setting, and looking at this game, I either don't get Howard or I don't get how these mechanics imply Howard's creation.  As I said, I want to love this game, but I would like someone to explain to me the thought process behind how these mechanics interact with the setting.  Hopefully, a light bulb will go on and the dissonance will evaporate.

QuoteI mean, the damage system is kind of out there. Roll a pool of d6s and count the 1s, 2s, 5s, and 6s... Wut?

The damage system is a little wonky and counter-intuitive but its not a deal breaker for me.  My players grocked it pretty quickly, though they said the exact same thing you did, "1s, 2s, 5s, and 6s... Wut?"  

Its not too bad, I just wonder why the mechanics are so opaque, like they're clever just to be clever.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880088Right, good question?  I just want to know what the momentum and doom point meta-mechanics are supposed to represent.  Why were they chosen to represent, emulate or simulate REH's stories in the Hyborian Age?  

A lot of mechanics (like HP, saving throws, or pass/fail skills, for example) are just intuitive.  Others, like Sanity for CoC, or passions for Pendragon are bolt-ons that make sense for the genre/setting.  I don't see the function of momentum or doom in this game/setting except that they might be nifty for there own sake - so I assumed I might be missing something.

Even still, I wouldn't normally have a problem with that, but there are some implications of these mechanics that are causing dissonance in my brain and with my group.  I'll explain:

First, PCs create and use momentum to do cinematic and super-human things.  I personally don't see REH's Conan stories as all that cinematic. The comics and movies maybe, but not the original stories.  Perhaps that's just my subjective interpretation so anyway...

Second, you have this weird group dynamic with momentum.  PC A rolls 3 successes sneaking or riding a horse or something, and then PC B can use PC A successes to swing a sword better, etc.  So in my demo with quickstart last night there was this weird situation where  players were, out of character, plotting their resource expenditure cooperation:  "Cool I got 3 successes, now you can use my extra successes to get the hell out of there."  That wasn't so horrible as a game, but I felt it was decidedly not sword and sorcery or REH Conan where every man survives by his strength and wits and forges his own destiny.

Third, the PCs built momentum by giving me doom points (which I could use against them) which created this atmosphere of some kind of cosmic balance or karma: "I can do really cool stuff any time I want but then universe will build up to some cosmic backlash." -  Am I wrong or is that antithetical to REH Conan?  In REH, there is no balance in nature.  The universe doesn't care! Conan is about man carving his own destiny out of an uncaring and immoral universe.  Isn't it?  Or is it a world where you tempt fate by doing super human and cinematic stuff?  That latter is what the mechanics imply?

Furthermore (at the risk of making this sound like a rant), I don't get doom points.  I mean, aren't they redundant?  The GM is already omnipotent within the game world.  Why does he need to accumulate points to make the NPC's tougher or whatever?  Can't I already do that?  Why empower the omnipotent? 1 plus infinity is still infinity.  All it does is force me to screw with the players when I am perfectly capable of making that decision myself.  

All of that is fine, but I don't understand the design decision.  How do any of these mechanics make for a more authentically REH Hyborian Age RPG?  System implies setting, and looking at this game, I either don't get Howard or I don't get how these mechanics imply Howard's creation.  As I said, I want to love this game, but I would like someone to explain to me the thought process behind how these mechanics interact with the setting.  Hopefully, a light bulb will go on and the dissonance will evaporate.

Hmmmmm...they're using the setting to hawk a system maybe?  Think I'm with you. That doesn't seem "Conan-ish" at all.

QuoteHmmmmm...they're using the setting to hawk a system maybe? Think I'm with you. That doesn't seem "Conan-ish" at all.

I guess.  I dunno.  

Its hard for me to believe that such great people like Jason and Jeff are just trying to hawk a system.  That almost makes less sense than the mechanics.  I'm confused so don't take my word for it. I'm not trying to shoot down the system or discourage people, I just want a rational before I plop down 500 bones.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880091The damage system is a little wonky and counter-intuitive but its not a deal breaker for me.  My players grocked it pretty quickly, though they said the exact same thing you did, "1s, 2s, 5s, and 6s... Wut?"  

Its not too bad, I just wonder why the mechanics are so opaque, like they're clever just to be clever.

Welcome to the world of Jay Little, the guy that invents a new symbol-based die mechanic for every game he makes.

The answer MadProfessor is that the Doom/Fortune/Momentum out of character metagame pools you keep track of have absolutely nothing to do with Conan/Hyboria/Howard.  They are not genre mechanics.  They are narrative mechanics.  One of the designers (Jay Little) is a dyed-in-the-wool Ron Edwards disciple, another one (Nathan Dowdell) had a "road to Damascus" moment playing Smallville and is a "mechanics to push story" convert.

As a result, the whole Doom Pool is there to push drama and story.  You want to act awesome like Conan in his most powerful moments, you can, by choosing to get extra dice to roll, but every die you roll adds to the GM's Doom Pool so he gets to make things more deadly.  The more you act like Conan, the more your enemies act like Thoth-Amon.

Momentum, simply put is "success breeds success".  As you roll really well (more than you need to) you gain Momentum which you can use to increase the success level of what you attempted, or you can choose to "bank" it so that the party can use it.  So yeah, your awesome sword strike can actually help the guy behind you pick the lock he's working on.

It's got nothing specifically to do with Conan, it's a way of looking at roleplaying (namely roleplaying with a huge amount of storytelling).

It's not "Roleplaying in the Hyborian World".
It's "Roleplaying in our own Howardian Short Story."

Yeah, they are specifically following MWP's Cortex model, which basically is:
1. Have one system we own.
2. Buy a bunch of IPs and have them all use variations of that same system.

However, that's not Jason's fault, all that was chosen before he came onboard I believe.

BTW I opened another thread for questions for Jason, maybe we can keep the arguments over here, and leave that thread for questions.

Thanks CRKrueger, that pretty well answers my questions.

I do realize that these are story mechanics, but I thought they might be specifically genre targeted story mechanics and I just wasn't getting it.  As a GM of 30 or so years I've never needed mechanics, let alone a game outside the game, to push my stories along, but I am trying to stay away from narrative vs traditional game arguments and just understand how the system serves the setting/genre.  Perhaps as a traditional (non--narrative game) type GM, I'm not the best qualified to judge.

I'd be happier I think if the meta-game could be easily extricated, but it seems deeply woven into the fabric of the whole system.

QuoteIt's not "Roleplaying in the Hyborian World".
It's "Roleplaying in our own Howardian Short Story."

That's an angle I hadn't really considered, and I am not yet sure that I buy it, but I am keeping an open mind.

QuoteWelcome to the world of Jay Little, the guy that invents a new symbol-based die mechanic for every game he makes.

I know a little about Jay Little from WFRP3 - I am not a fan - especially as WFRP 1 was awesome and WFRP 2 was a near perfect piece of game design IMHO, but that's all subjective.

QuoteHowever, that's not Jason's fault, all that was chosen before he came onboard I believe.

I don't blame Jason in the least.  In fact, the quality people on this project are why I am considering giving these narrative mechanics a second chance (I say while cringing at my own words).

It does seem though that perhaps the game system is a bit of a square peg that's being forced by a business model.

I'll move my questions over to the other thread.

Cheers

Well you can cut Momentum down, and limit it only to the thing you are currently doing, making it kind of a special effects/stunt whatever.  Then remove the group Momentum Pool so no more banking Momentum.

Dooms you can remove entirely, but players without any bonus dice can only get 4 successes, so you'll have to remember that for assigning difficulty.

If you leave Fortunes as minor Luck, Fate, Bennies whatever and remove the world-editing power, then players could still reach an Epic difficulty by adding Fortune Dice.

I think a *lot* of the special abilities and capabilities, and events in adventures though are going to be tied to Dooms.  Constraining the GM and forcing tactical decisions through the Pool like the players have to make is one goal of at least one of the designers.  They like and want that Doom minigame, so removing it means you're going to have fill in some things yourself.  For example,

• PCs always go first unless the GM spends a Doom.
• PCs will surprise the guards unless the GM spends a Doom.
• The pirates will take three rounds to sabotage the mainsail unless the GM spends a Doom.
• etc.

A lot of traditional opposed task resolution is handled with those Doom spends, so it will alter the flow of the game, especially if there aren't any actual rules to replace the Doom spend with.

So you get rid of Dooms and Fortunes and cut Momentum down to size, now you have another problem, distances being in narrative Zones instead of...distances.  The whole point behind that was to have rules attached to the zones that could be invoked via Doom or Momentum like you can do in Fate.

So, once you start de-narratifying the game, there's no reason at all to keep the awkward Zones, but we don't know if the game will give us optional ranges and distances for things.

It's a very focused (almost ideologically so) narrative system.  Why you would buy one of the largest fantasy IPs in history and purposely develop a game you know would put off a good chunk of your audience- well actually I know why, if they took all the money they are putting into this Conan RPG and sunk it into marketing for the 2d20 system, it wouldn't be a quarter as useful.

Quote from: Omega;879909CPI or someone else TMed Red Sonja. Which is also in dispute as the character is a fabrication of Marvel and has nothing to do with Red Sonya of Rogatino other than both being fighting women and redheads.

She's a creation of two former Marvel writers, her adventures take place in the same world as Conan's and thus has no affiliation with Red Sonya of Rogantino, which is set in a more realistic world setting.

As for CPI, the only reason that no one challenges them over the Conan license is due to the fact that they can out lawyer anyone, and they happily will.  There is no truly legal way for them to keep it but everyone else is too afraid to fight them for it.

According to what I know of copyright law, the entire Howard estate became public domain about 1.5 to 2 years before the revision of the laws in the 60's.

Quote from: Jason D;879970I think what you're describing (if I grasp it) has merit, doesn't to my mind mesh very well with the whole "adventurer group" framework that most popular fantasy roleplaying games emphasize and support.

Problem is:  Neither does Sword and Sorcery.  It's often about a lone protagonist, maybe up to a trio, whose wide array of skills allows them to overcome whatever challenges are before them.

I love me some S&S, but let's face it, as a construct for adventuring with a group, you'd best stick to D&D or something similar.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880031This should be the ultimate Hyborian Age RPG, and as an REH disciple who has run many Hyborian Age campaigns using different systems - I should be all over this. However, despite the massive talent behind the project I cannot get myself to pull the trigger on the kickstarter.

The art, writing, production, and source material should be nothing short of brilliant, but after downloading the quickstart I simply cannot fathom the purpose of the momentum and doom mechanics that are woven into the fabric of this game system (I have no problem with the basic 2d20 short dice pool mechanic, it's actually kinda slick).

If someone could explain to me how the game-within-a-game of momentum pools and doom points have anything to do with invoking the style, feel, or concepts in REH's stories then I am all in.  Maybe it is just a lack of transparency and I can't see what these are supposed to represent or do.  I want to love this game, but what the heck are all of these meta-mechanics about, and how are they supposed to contribute to my "100% pure REH" experience?

No disrespect intended, I just don't get it

On the Conan.com forum, before it was shut down, I spent thousands of words explaining the system, the goals, and how we felt it worked, to only get a "nah, still don't like it."

Which is fine. Not all games are for all players, and it's not a lot of use trying to convince people to like things they don't like.

However, I've heard similar concerns from players before getting into the system, and once it begins, they immediately grasp the concepts and have a great time.

All of the demo games have been enthusiastically met by the players, and more than once I've heard "I was skeptical, but this really works well."

So it just might be one of those games that's not for you, but works as intended.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880114The more you act like Conan, the more your enemies act like Thoth-Amon.

Momentum, simply put is "success breeds success".  

As REH put it in People of the Black Circle, "Sorcery thrives on success, not on failure."

The game's mechanics re-enforce that with swordsmanship and other heroic activities.

There seems to be a problem with the Momentum/Doom system and I've posted a query about it on the Modiphius forums, but thought I'd post it here in case the RPG luminaries on theRPGsite have any insights (they'll certainly have comments).

Looking at the Quickstarter rules I've noticed something that looks unbalanced to me (not that I'm obsessed with game balance like some precious snowflake). Let me explain (I hope I've understood the rules correctly);

When PCs gain Momentum they must spend it or bank it, but they loose some of the banked Momentum, "At the end of each scene, and at the end of each round during an action scene, the group loses a single point of saved Momentum from their shared pool."

Firstly, I'm assuming the loss comes off the pool weather the group earned any Momentum during that scene round or not. Is that correct?

That sounds fine. Whittling away at their Momentum stops the group form accumulating a huge amount of Momentum and unbalancing the game.

NPCs also get Momentum.

One aside. The mechanics around NPCs only makes sense if they are antagonists not allies. I think this should made explicit in the rules when referring to these NPCs, that they are foes, not ally NPCs, otherwise it might get confused with the NPC members of the party.

In any case. The rules for NPC Momentum are; "Similarly, the gamemaster does not need to keep track of any Momentum earned by non-player characters. Instead, any unspent Momentum from non-player character skill tests are added to the Doom pool, and can be spent by the gamemaster as Doom."

That means, when the foe NPC gets Momentum, they can do bad things to the PCs immediately. But if they don't spend it, they don't pay any penalty like the PCs have to. Instead all that earned Momentum gets converted into Doom, which can also be used against the PCs. In addition, that Doom is not whittled away like Momentum is for the PCs. I think I'm reading the rules correctly here.

This seems unfair/unbalanced as it gives the foe NPCs an significant advantage over the PCs in the Momentum economy. It feels too GM vs players (at least for my tastes).

Quote from: Jason D;880169On the Conan.com forum, before it was shut down, I spent thousands of words explaining the system, the goals, and how we felt it worked, to only get a "nah, still don't like it."

Which is fine. Not all games are for all players, and it's not a lot of use trying to convince people to like things they don't like.

However, I've heard similar concerns from players before getting into the system, and once it begins, they immediately grasp the concepts and have a great time.

All of the demo games have been enthusiastically met by the players, and more than once I've heard "I was skeptical, but this really works well."

So it just might be one of those games that's not for you, but works as intended.

If the intention is to kill off my interest in several cool IP's, I'd say you hit bullseye. Chris & Co almost managed to turn me away from the new Mutant Chronicles, and that feat requires both significant talent and effort.

Quote from: baragei;880182If the intention is to kill off my interest in several cool IP's, I'd say you hit bullseye. Chris & Co almost managed to turn me away from the new Mutant Chronicles, and that feat requires both significant talent and effort.

Hey, snap. I've long since reconciled myself to the fact that any IP i hold an interest in will never get an RPG that i'm happy with.

I believe in being honest when it comes to games. If the rules presented in the quickstart don't appeal to you, and you're not inclined to try the rules out, then there's not much to do there.

I was around when Mongoose announced the d20 version of Conan the Roleplaying Game, fans complained vociferously that there was no way d20 could emulate the world of Conan, and were a terrible means of evoking sword-and-sorcery.

Now, 13 years later, it's apparently sacred. Some of the same people who complained about the d20 version are now using it as the standard against which the new game is measured, so go figure.

Quote from: Jason D;880169Which is fine. Not all games are for all players, and it's not a lot of use trying to convince people to like things they don't like.

Truer words have never been spoken. If only more players would accept that and mind their own business rather than come back and complain, even if they already know they aren't going to play the game.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;880194Truer words have never been spoken. If only more players would accept that and mind their own business rather than come back and complain, even if they already know they aren't going to play the game.

Yeah, but minding your own business and not complaining about things you won't ever play would eliminate like 90% of all internet RPG discussions...

Quote from: Jason D;880193I believe in being honest when it comes to games. If the rules presented in the quickstart don't appeal to you, and you're not inclined to try the rules out, then there's not much to do there.

I was around when Mongoose announced the d20 version of Conan the Roleplaying Game, fans complained vociferously that there was no way d20 could emulate the world of Conan, and were a terrible means of evoking sword-and-sorcery.

Now, 13 years later, it's apparently sacred. Some of the same people who complained about the d20 version are now using it as the standard against which the new game is measured, so go figure.

Well, no - I still think the d20 version sucked for Conan. Yes, I tried it, and it was a group decision to drop the game because I turned out to not be the only one who didn't like it:).
Then again, I'm not complaining about the 2d20 version, so go figure what that means;).

Quote from: Chainsaw;880197Yeah, but minding your own business and not complaining about things you won't ever play would eliminate like 90% of all internet RPG discussions...

True, true...

...but it's not that these 90% are that useful or that fun to miss them.

If you disagree, I'm willing to spend the rest of month either attacking or defending the Alignment Tree. :D

Quote from: JesterRaiin;880194Truer words have never been spoken. If only more players would accept that and mind their own business rather than come back and complain, even if they already know they aren't going to play the game.

If someone sounds genuinely interested, I'll happily discuss with them. When conversations begin with loaded questions and it becomes quickly obvious that there's no point to continuing, I'm not inclined to belabor the point.

Some people will never become customers/fans/non-haters, and arguing with them to change their minds is not the best use of energy.

Jason, I'm out-argued. That doesn't change the fact that I still don't like the 2d20-system, nor the fact that I'm glad you're here to talk about the game.
But the discussion would probably be easier on your psyche if you talked about Conan rather than the rules;)

QuoteOn the Conan.com forum, before it was shut down, I spent thousands of words explaining the system, the goals, and how we felt it worked, to only get a "nah, still don't like it."

Which is fine. Not all games are for all players, and it's not a lot of use trying to convince people to like things they don't like.

However, I've heard similar concerns from players before getting into the system, and once it begins, they immediately grasp the concepts and have a great time.

All of the demo games have been enthusiastically met by the players, and more than once I've heard "I was skeptical, but this really works well."

So it just might be one of those games that's not for you, but works as intended.

Thank you, Jason, for your response and honesty.  To respond in kind, I am trying really hard to set aside my biases about narrative and meta-game mechanics (which I admit I have) in order to figure out how to make this game work for me and my players.  I am a huge REH fan who has been running Hyborian Age adventures (off and on) for decades. Some people can just say "nah, not for me" and that's fine, but I am not really willing to give up on it that easily.  Obviously, many people enjoy these types of mechanics.  I don't begrudge anybody their fun - I am trying to join in!

My demo game the other night using the quickstart was a kind of a humorous fiasco.  I tried to keep an open mind and run it by the book.  It ended up as a Conan parody.  We had fun in a Monty Python board game kind of way - but it was silly and there was no immersion.  I don't blame the system for that! I am sure it was my fault for not grocking or completely buying into it. It wasn't black or white whether we liked the game.  The main conclusion was that it was hard to take seriously.

In any case, to be perfectly frank, it feels as if Modiphius is simply shutting the door on traditionalist GMs and groups who want to enjoy their game by throwing up their hands and saying "well, you're not gonna like it. Play something else," as if I am inflexible or incapable of learning something new.  I dunno, maybe that's just my frustration talking.  I seem to recall that you come from a more traditional RPG background.  Obviously, this narrative system is working for you.  I'm not sure why I can't do the same.

QuoteIf someone sounds genuinely interested, I'll happily discuss with them. When conversations begin with loaded questions and it becomes quickly obvious that there's no point to continuing, I'm not inclined to belabor the point.

Some people will never become customers/fans/non-haters, and arguing with them to change their minds is not the best use of energy.

I apologize if I came off as loading questions.  It was not my intention. I am genuinely interested.  I am not a big fan of the system, but I am certainly not a hater.

I'll try to be more constructive.  

QuoteJason, I'm out-argued. That doesn't change the fact that I still don't like the 2d20-system, nor the fact that I'm glad you're here to talk about the game.
But the discussion would probably be easier on your psyche if you talked about Conan rather than the rules

I completely agree.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880214Some people can just say "nah, not for me" and that's fine, but I am not really willing to give up on it that easily.  Obviously, many people enjoy these types of mechanics.  I don't begrudge anybody their fun - I am trying to join in!


In any case, to be perfectly frank, it feels as if Modiphius is simply shutting the door on traditionalist GMs and groups who want to enjoy their game by throwing up their hands and saying "well, you're not gonna like it. Play something else," as if I am inflexible or incapable of learning something new.  I dunno, maybe that's just my frustration talking.  I seem to recall that you come from a more traditional RPG background.  Obviously, this narrative system is working for you.  I'm not sure why I can't do the same.

Care to join me in a thread for "reconfiguring narrative RPGs for use in immersionist groups":)? I stumbled on something that works for our extended group years ago, pretty much by accident, but some people on this forum are questioning whether it's even necessary to discuss it.

And I'm sure that Modiphius aren't trying to do that. They just know what they have to offer.
And they also know that some people are bound to like it more, some less, and some are going to be unable to play it, whatever it might be.
I get it that it might feel like a door slammed in your face, but I'm 100% sure that Jason D wouldn't turn more customers if he could get them, because he's doing it as a business if for no other reason;).

Quote from: Jason D;880193Now, 13 years later, it's apparently sacred. Some of the same people who complained about the d20 version are now using it as the standard against which the new game is measured, so go figure.

I loved the D20 Conan game.  It's still the only version of 3.x I will happily, willingly run.  I don't think I ever 'hated' it in any way.  Skeptical?  Maybe, and I would agree it needed a lot more work to be good with REH Conan, but every time I ran it, it was a blast.

QuoteCare to join me in a thread for "reconfiguring narrative RPGs for use in immersionist groups"? I stumbled on something that works for our extended group years ago, pretty much by accident, but some people on this forum are questioning whether it's even necessary to discuss it.

Funny, when I first read this I thought it was a joke - like an AA meeting for immersionists,  IGA Imersionist Gamers Anonymous or something: "Hi, my name is Madprofessor and I'm addicted to BRP..."

Seriously, I'd love to hear what you have to say.  Where is this thread?

QuoteWell you can cut Momentum down, and limit it only to the thing you are currently doing, making it kind of a special effects/stunt whatever. Then remove the group Momentum Pool so no more banking Momentum.

Dooms you can remove entirely, but players without any bonus dice can only get 4 successes, so you'll have to remember that for assigning difficulty.

If you leave Fortunes as minor Luck, Fate, Bennies whatever and remove the world-editing power, then players could still reach an Epic difficulty by adding Fortune Dice.

Now we are talking! How do we make the game work?!? I certainly think you are on the right track here, and my mind immediately jumped to these same conclusions: cut momentum down and no pooling momentum, kill doom entirely, and allow fortune or some truncated version of it.

QuoteI think a *lot* of the special abilities and capabilities, and events in adventures though are going to be tied to Dooms. Constraining the GM and forcing tactical decisions through the Pool like the players have to make is one goal of at least one of the designers. They like and want that Doom minigame, so removing it means you're going to have fill in some things yourself. For example,

    PCs always go first unless the GM spends a Doom.
    PCs will surprise the guards unless the GM spends a Doom.
    The pirates will take three rounds to sabotage the mainsail unless the GM spends a Doom.
    etc.


A lot of traditional opposed task resolution is handled with those Doom spends, so it will alter the flow of the game, especially if there aren't any actual rules to replace the Doom spend with.

Yeah, some of this this is a problem.  A simple die roll initiative system of your choice would be easy to implement (D&D d6 high side goes first or d20ish individualized initiative, for example.).  As for NPC abilities and powers, I would just ignore the doom requirements to activate abilities and do it as I felt it most appropriately fit the story (its a little ironic that we're weeding out story mechanics to enhance the story.  Anyways...).  Without replacement rules for doom, GMs would need to wing it somewhat especially in published adventures where this stuff is keyed into the story.  A bigger problem I think is that doom and momentum seem heavily woven into the combat mechanics - I'm not quite sure what the implications of of removing them might be in the crunch of combat - that would require some playtesting, or heaven forbid - math!

QuoteSo you get rid of Dooms and Fortunes and cut Momentum down to size, now you have another problem, distances being in narrative Zones instead of...distances. The whole point behind that was to have rules attached to the zones that could be invoked via Doom or Momentum like you can do in Fate.

So, once you start de-narratifying the game, there's no reason at all to keep the awkward Zones, but we don't know if the game will give us optional ranges and distances for things.

I heard a roomer that they would include actual measurements in feet or yards for those who wanted them.  Don't know if that's true.  Regardless, these things aren't exactly rocket science.  "Invoking zones" with momentum and doom is frankly pretty lame IMHO.  I found zones (and zone aspects) to be the least palatable part of Fate (character aspects were kinda cool).  Its a pretty simple matter to describe the environment and let the players ask questions about what they can see or do, what the threats or opportunities might be, so again, this can be removed.

QuoteIt's a very focused (almost ideologically so) narrative system. Why you would buy one of the largest fantasy IPs in history and purposely develop a game you know would put off a good chunk of your audience- well actually I know why, if they took all the money they are putting into this Conan RPG and sunk it into marketing for the 2d20 system, it wouldn't be a quarter as useful.

Yeah, I see that.  I have no comment on their short-term business incentives.

My problem is not that I couldn't de-narrativate the system, it's that added all together, the above is a lot of work.  I mean once we have done all of the above, what's left of the system?  What did I pay for? Chargen, the 2d20 core mechanic, magic?  Large portions of the books will be mechanical content that I will have to actively avoid.  I habitually house rule so its nothing new, but this looks like a beast to re-tool, and then I think my players would prefer a game that works right out of the box.  I can hear them now "if you had to completely re-write the game, why are we playing it?"

I see that a traditional GM like me (and I am guessing you) is left with a small list of options:

A)  Try to keep an open mind and make it work as written.
B)  House rule the crap out of it and practically re-write the game.
C)  Buy it for the Art, setting material, adventures and what will undoubtedly be some good writing.  In other words, buy a game where you value everything in it for but the game (like buying a chess set because you like squares).
D) Forget about it and use BRP, RQ6, BoL, or some other system that's already inspired by and well-suited to REH's Hyborian Age.

All quotes here are from CRKrueger.  I'm new here so I am not sure why that doesn't show up.

I read the Quickstart and I liked the adventure. The 2D20 system doesn't work for me, but I'd be willing to play a demo at some point. For me, there have been so many Conan RPGs that any of them are good enough to pull out setting info.

But I'm not the audience for the KS. I doubt Modiphius really cares if anyone actually plays their games because they make beautiful books for collectors.  The Conan book will be beautiful and for people who just buy RPGs to read, so that's going to be great for them.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880352"Hi, my name is Madprofessor and I'm addicted to BRP..."

You touched my heart with this sentence.

Welcome to therpgsite!!

Quote from: Madprofessor;880361Now we are talking! How do we make the game work?!? I certainly think you are on the right track here, and my mind immediately jumped to these same conclusions: cut momentum down and no pooling momentum, kill doom entirely, and allow fortune or some truncated version of it.



Yeah, some of this this is a problem.  A simple die roll initiative system of your choice would be easy to implement (D&D d6 high side goes first or d20ish individualized initiative, for example.).  As for NPC abilities and powers, I would just ignore the doom requirements to activate abilities and do it as I felt it most appropriately fit the story (its a little ironic that we're weeding out story mechanics to enhance the story.  Anyways...).  Without replacement rules for doom, GMs would need to wing it somewhat especially in published adventures where this stuff is keyed into the story.  A bigger problem I think is that doom and momentum seem heavily woven into the combat mechanics - I'm not quite sure what the implications of of removing them might be in the crunch of combat - that would require some playtesting, or heaven forbid - math!

Or Doom might be a fixed pool of points you (the GM) can spend on your baddies every season, like luck points in RQ6, thus avoiding the Doom economy. I hope it makes sense.

QuoteMy problem is not that I couldn't de-narrativate the system, it's that added all together, the above is a lot of work.  I mean once we have done all of the above, what's left of the system?  What did I pay for? Chargen, the 2d20 core mechanic, magic?  Large portions of the books will be mechanical content that I will have to actively avoid.  I habitually house rule so its nothing new, but this looks like a beast to re-tool, and then I think my players would prefer a game that works right out of the box.  I can hear them now "if you had to completely re-write the game, why are we playing it?"

I see that a traditional GM like me (and I am guessing you) is left with a small list of options:

A)  Try to keep an open mind and make it work as written.
B)  House rule the crap out of it and practically re-write the game.
C)  Buy it for the Art, setting material, adventures and what will undoubtedly be some good writing.  In other words, buy a game where you value everything in it for but the game (like buying a chess set because you like squares).
D) Forget about it and use BRP, RQ6, BoL, or some other system that's already inspired by and well-suited to REH's Hyborian Age.

I feel the same way. I really want to like this game, it's Conan! But the system is too narrative for me, I can't help thinking about my experience when we (my group and me) tried Trail of Cthulhu. On paper it looked good, but actual play was a fiasco.

And then, a little voice in my head keeps saying "With RQ6 or BRP you could run a great Conan game, you only need a fitting magic system..."

Quote from: Madprofessor;880352Funny, when I first read this I thought it was a joke - like an AA meeting for immersionists,  IGA Imersionist Gamers Anonymous or something: "Hi, my name is Madprofessor and I'm addicted to BRP..."

Seriously, I'd love to hear what you have to say.  Where is this thread?

Actually, it's here, I just opened it after posting that:). Your post is quoted in the OP.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=34002
I even suggested a kind of "solution" for the Doom Pool, which might work for you;).

Quote from: Jason D;880204If someone sounds genuinely interested, I'll happily discuss with them. When conversations begin with loaded questions and it becomes quickly obvious that there's no point to continuing, I'm not inclined to belabor the point.

Some people will never become customers/fans/non-haters, and arguing with them to change their minds is not the best use of energy.

Exactly.

For the record: I'm not interested and unless invited I'm not gonna play the game, but I still wish you all best. May your game be successful, because, heck, if it's gonna be written by such reasonable guys, it must be at least partially good. ;]

Quote from: baragei;880208Jason, I'm out-argued. That doesn't change the fact that I still don't like the 2d20-system, nor the fact that I'm glad you're here to talk about the game.
But the discussion would probably be easier on your psyche if you talked about Conan rather than the rules;)

I would quite enjoy more of a focus on the content and plans for the line.

It's not that I'm unwilling to discuss the system, it's that the mechanics play much better than they read, if that makes any sense.

It's hard to try to convince someone to like something when they've made up their minds against it, so I'm not really trying.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880214In any case, to be perfectly frank, it feels as if Modiphius is simply shutting the door on traditionalist GMs and groups who want to enjoy their game by throwing up their hands and saying "well, you're not gonna like it. Play something else," as if I am inflexible or incapable of learning something new.  I dunno, maybe that's just my frustration talking.  I seem to recall that you come from a more traditional RPG background.  Obviously, this narrative system is working for you.  I'm not sure why I can't do the same.

Well, not really. We'd love to get everyone playing, but I personally just don't have the energy to belabor the points here, again, when they've already been discussed ad nauseum (at least to me) elsewhere.

As for my background... that's an inaccurate impression.

My first published work was with Chaosium, and I wrote a big chunk of Shadow Knight for Amber Diceless Roleplaying. Before hooking up with Modiphius, I worked on another diceless game, Lords of Gossamer & Shadow, and I've been a longtime fan of indie/narrative game design.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880216I apologize if I came off as loading questions.  It was not my intention.

I was speaking in general, not about you in particular.

Quote from: AsenRG;880217I get it that it might feel like a door slammed in your face, but I'm 100% sure that Jason D wouldn't turn more customers if he could get them, because he's doing it as a business if for no other reason;).

No doors are being slammed in anyone's faces, believe me. If I felt it was a wasted cause, I wouldn't be here at all.

That said, bickering about tastes in mechanics and claiming the game can be everything to all people doesn't really help anyone, does it?

It's a case of Goldilocks... we have some people saying the system is too crunchy, too simulationist, and others saying it's too narrativist, too loosey-goosey. When we have such a diverse range of opinions, the only sane choice is to make sure you're clear with your goals, and make those goals clear to everyone who asks.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880275I loved the D20 Conan game.  It's still the only version of 3.x I will happily, willingly run.  I don't think I ever 'hated' it in any way.  Skeptical?  Maybe, and I would agree it needed a lot more work to be good with REH Conan, but every time I ran it, it was a blast.

I was speaking specifically about a few folks from the conan.com forums, so unless you were a regular poster there under a different title, it wasn't you.

Quote from: Spinachcat;880380I doubt Modiphius really cares if anyone actually plays their games because they make beautiful books for collectors.  

It's possible to be eager to make great games, and want to make them beautiful.

Modiphius (and by this I mean the individuals in the company) are about as gamer-centric as any I've encountered.

It's in no one's interest to make collectors items vs. games.

Quote from: Claudius;880393Or Doom might be a fixed pool of points you (the GM) can spend on your baddies every season, like luck points in RQ6, thus avoiding the Doom economy. I hope it makes sense.

Not sure if you're familiar with Savage Worlds, but that reads like a decent description of GM Bennies in that system.  They didn't really bother me when I used to run Savage Worlds, but, then, I consistently forgot to use them.  If I started the session with six Bennies (one per player), I'd usually end the session with six still sitting on the table in front of me.

Or the GM could go to the opposite extreme and blow the entire Doom pool on the first attack in the first combat to one-shot a PC.  Now, sure, that would be a dick move, but where exactly is the line between "using Doom to make things interesting for the PCs" and "using Doom to be a dick to the players"?  Perhaps I'm just too much of a softie to be a Real GM[TM], but I don't like to be in the position of arbitrarily deciding that Bad Things will (or won't) happen to PCs.  Set up a situation where Bad Things can happen, then let player actions or random chance determine whether it actually happens or not?  Absolutely!  Decide "the bandit chief just hit you for two damage and you can survive another four damage, so I'll spend three Doom to guarantee your death"?  Not so much.

People often talk about the "old school"/"GM as referee"/"fantasy fucking Vietnam" styles of gaming as being "adversarial", but the newer trend of giving the GM a pool of points that he's meant to spend to fuck the PCs over feels far more adversarial to me than Tomb of Horrors ever did.

Quote from: nDervish;880426Not sure if you're familiar with Savage Worlds, but that reads like a decent description of GM Bennies in that system.  They didn't really bother me when I used to run Savage Worlds, but, then, I consistently forgot to use them.  If I started the session with six Bennies (one per player), I'd usually end the session with six still sitting on the table in front of me.

You know, put it this way, the Doom/Fortune system doesn't sound bad. It's pretty much a twist in the old action/hero/drama/fate/etc. point mechanic.

In fact I'm half tempted to do this to Bennies next time I run SW! Every time a PC spends a Benny, it makes its way to the GM's hands, to use as he or she pleases. My players will love/hate it :D

Quote from: nDervish;880426Or the GM could go to the opposite extreme and blow the entire Doom pool on the first attack in the first combat to one-shot a PC.  Now, sure, that would be a dick move, but where exactly is the line between "using Doom to make things interesting for the PCs" and "using Doom to be a dick to the players"?  Perhaps I'm just too much of a softie to be a Real GM[TM], but I don't like to be in the position of arbitrarily deciding that Bad Things will (or won't) happen to PCs.  Set up a situation where Bad Things can happen, then let player actions or random chance determine whether it actually happens or not?  Absolutely!  Decide "the bandit chief just hit you for two damage and you can survive another four damage, so I'll spend three Doom to guarantee your death"?  Not so much.

People often talk about the "old school"/"GM as referee"/"fantasy fucking Vietnam" styles of gaming as being "adversarial", but the newer trend of giving the GM a pool of points that he's meant to spend to fuck the PCs over feels far more adversarial to me than Tomb of Horrors ever did.

A little bit of adversarial GMing can spice up a game table! When I'm running an old school, tough love game, I let players know in advance. Some don't show up for these sessions. But the ones who do, ho boy...

As for the specifics of Doom/Fortune use, well, yeah, dick GMs will be dick GMs, and dick players will be dick players. Don't game with dicks?

QuoteThat said, bickering about tastes in mechanics and claiming the game can be everything to all people doesn't really help anyone, does it?

I don't want to flog this dead horse anymore either, and I appreciate your position, but my point was not that I don't like the style of the mechanics.

My original specific point, and the reason I joined this forum, was that the cooperative dynamics of momentum and the sense of karmic cosmic balance created by the doom mechanic seem objectively contradictory to REH's themes found in his Conan stories.  Since I am no good at understanding the functionality of meta-mechanics, I wanted someone to explain to me how these mechanics were thematic to REH's Conan stories. I figured, with all the talk of REH purity, that these mechanics had some setting litmus test, that they were specifically crafted to enhance roleplay in REHs Hyborian Age.  I am not attacking anything or trying to get in a protracted subjective argument.  I am (was) searching for a link that I am now satisfied does not exist. The dead horse is buried as far as I am concerned.

Cheers

Quote from: Madprofessor;880447I don't want to flog this dead horse anymore either, and I appreciate your position, but my point was not that I don't like the style of the mechanics.

My original specific point, and the reason I joined this forum, was that the cooperative dynamics of momentum and the sense of karmic cosmic balance created by the doom mechanic seem objectively contradictory to REH's themes found in his Conan stories.  Since I am no good at understanding the functionality of meta-mechanics, I wanted someone to explain to me how these mechanics were thematic to REH's Conan stories. I figured, with all the talk of REH purity, that these mechanics had some setting litmus test, that they were specifically crafted to enhance roleplay in REHs Hyborian Age.  I am not attacking anything or trying to get in a protracted subjective argument.  I am (was) searching for a link that I am now satisfied does not exist. The dead horse is buried as far as I am concerned.

Cheers

So, this is my interpretation, and as such I do not mean to answer this question for those who might take a more official stance.

That said, the way I interpret both of these mechanics is less as an in-world (albeit unrecognized by those characters in that world) setting conceit-- portraying, for example, a karmic balance as such-- but rather as a fully OOC, fully out-of-world method for causing (or at least attempting to cause) the resulting play sessions to have a structure akin to an adventure story, wherein sweeping successes and profound setbacks can and do occur in a narratively-satisfying fashion.

These mechanics have less to do with Howardian themes as they do with Howardian (or adventure story, generally) story structure and pacing.

Quote from: nDervish;880426Not sure if you're familiar with Savage Worlds, but that reads like a decent description of GM Bennies in that system.  They didn't really bother me when I used to run Savage Worlds, but, then, I consistently forgot to use them.  If I started the session with six Bennies (one per player), I'd usually end the session with six still sitting on the table in front of me.

Or the GM could go to the opposite extreme and blow the entire Doom pool on the first attack in the first combat to one-shot a PC.  Now, sure, that would be a dick move, but where exactly is the line between "using Doom to make things interesting for the PCs" and "using Doom to be a dick to the players"?  Perhaps I'm just too much of a softie to be a Real GM[TM], but I don't like to be in the position of arbitrarily deciding that Bad Things will (or won't) happen to PCs.  Set up a situation where Bad Things can happen, then let player actions or random chance determine whether it actually happens or not?  Absolutely!  Decide "the bandit chief just hit you for two damage and you can survive another four damage, so I'll spend three Doom to guarantee your death"?  Not so much.

People often talk about the "old school"/"GM as referee"/"fantasy fucking Vietnam" styles of gaming as being "adversarial", but the newer trend of giving the GM a pool of points that he's meant to spend to fuck the PCs over feels far more adversarial to me than Tomb of Horrors ever did.

This is what bothers me about such mechanics. I like a challenging game but I want to feel that I'm being impartial when I GM. If the wandering monster rolled is likely to kill some or all of the PCs, so be it; I'm not going to choose to make it easier or harder. If I can rationalize the resource as something that an NPC is managing, then it's not so bad: it's the decision of the NPC, not my decision, and I try to choose actions for NPCs based on what they would do given what they know. But that doesn't work if the challenge is a trap or a random event and not an NPC, or when it's a shared resource among NPCs who are not even aware of each other, because it ruins any possibility of deciding what to do from the point of view of the particular NPC.

So I would either roll dice all the time to decide how many Doom Points to use right then, or only use them when the challenges that are there seem too weak (which just throws out the distribution of difficulty), or just not use them (but then the game is less challenging than it should be).

QuoteSo, this is my interpretation, and as such I do not mean to answer this question for those who might take a more official stance.

That said, the way I interpret both of these mechanics is less as an in-world (albeit unrecognized by those characters in that world) setting conceit-- portraying, for example, a karmic balance as such-- but rather as a fully OOC, fully out-of-world method for causing (or at least attempting to cause) the resulting play sessions to have a structure akin to an adventure story, wherein sweeping successes and profound setbacks can and do occur in a narratively-satisfying fashion.

These mechanics have less to do with Howardian themes as they do with Howardian (or adventure story, generally) story structure and pacing.

Awesome explanation.  Thank you!

Quote from: Madprofessor;880447My original specific point, and the reason I joined this forum, was that the cooperative dynamics of momentum and the sense of karmic cosmic balance created by the doom mechanic seem objectively contradictory to REH's themes found in his Conan stories.  Since I am no good at understanding the functionality of meta-mechanics, I wanted someone to explain to me how these mechanics were thematic to REH's Conan stories. I figured, with all the talk of REH purity, that these mechanics had some setting litmus test, that they were specifically crafted to enhance roleplay in REHs Hyborian Age.  I am not attacking anything or trying to get in a protracted subjective argument.  I am (was) searching for a link that I am now satisfied does not exist. The dead horse is buried as far as I am concerned.

I offer you an apology on this matter.

I did actually go through this whole exercise, multiple times, on the conan.com forum. I described how a scene might play out with players using Threat, Luck, and Momentum (old names), using examples from the first Millius film (because I did not have the book at hand), and I wanted the readers to just be able to pull up the scene and see what was happening and how it might play out.

Some people went "Oh, I get it!" and the naysayers just went "No, don't get it. Doesn't work for me." It didn't matter that it was explicitly detailed, that I went lengths to point out how those points were moving, and how they worked within the context of our system.

All of that effort, wasted, and I'll admit that it's made me extremely cynical about the expenditure of effort.

For the core book, I'm currently in the process of taking core scenes from REH and using them to explain the rules in play, and when those are finalized, I'll see if I can post some.

Quote from: Jason D;880556I offer you an apology on this matter.

I did actually go through this whole exercise, multiple times, on the conan.com forum. I described how a scene might play out with players using Threat, Luck, and Momentum (old names), using examples from the first Millius film (because I did not have the book at hand), and I wanted the readers to just be able to pull up the scene and see what was happening and how it might play out.

Some people went "Oh, I get it!" and the naysayers just went "No, don't get it. Doesn't work for me." It didn't matter that it was explicitly detailed, that I went lengths to point out how those points were moving, and how they worked within the context of our system.

All of that effort, wasted, and I'll admit that it's made me extremely cynical about the expenditure of effort.

For the core book, I'm currently in the process of taking core scenes from REH and using them to explain the rules in play, and when those are finalized, I'll see if I can post some.

Off topic, but you know why that site went down?  I see Deuce and the boys over at the temp site.  Did someone buy Conan.com?

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D View Post
I offer you an apology on this matter.

I did actually go through this whole exercise, multiple times, on the conan.com forum. I described how a scene might play out with players using Threat, Luck, and Momentum (old names), using examples from the first Millius film (because I did not have the book at hand), and I wanted the readers to just be able to pull up the scene and see what was happening and how it might play out.

Some people went "Oh, I get it!" and the naysayers just went "No, don't get it. Doesn't work for me." It didn't matter that it was explicitly detailed, that I went lengths to point out how those points were moving, and how they worked within the context of our system.

All of that effort, wasted, and I'll admit that it's made me extremely cynical about the expenditure of effort.

Your a true gentleman, and I certainly understand your cynicism especially in today's on-line environment.  There are a lot of arselings out there.  I am trying not to be one of them.

CRKeuger explained it pretty well that the system does not try to represent the Hyborian Age setting so much as REH's storytelling style.  Its a hard concept for me to wrap my head around as I am already very good at creating REH-like stories, pacing, themes, motivation etc. (or so I am told)and doing all of the things these mechanics are supposed to do for me.  So I am dragging you through my unlearning and relearning process in an effort to appreciate and make use of the game.  I don't blame you for being sick of hearing about it.

QuoteFor the core book, I'm currently in the process of taking core scenes from REH and using them to explain the rules in play, and when those are finalized, I'll see if I can post some

Awesome!  That would be a huge help!

Quote from: CRKrueger;880566Off topic, but you know why that site went down?  I see Deuce and the boys over at the temp site.  Did someone buy Conan.com?

They cited "practical and technical reasons" but did not elaborate.

They pointed to a new fora swordsofreh.com?

Jason, while I doubt this game is for me, I would encourage you to dig up those old posts and publish them somewhere. There are always going to be people who don't get it and it's often easier to see failure than success. Your perspective (in terms of acknowledging the limits of appeal) is a healthy one; a great deal of the negativity I think can be ascribed to a reaction against denying the validity of critiques.

QuoteJason, while I doubt this game is for me, I would encourage you to dig up those old posts and publish them somewhere. There are always going to be people who don't get it and it's often easier to see failure than success. Your perspective (in terms of acknowledging the limits of appeal) is a healthy one; a great deal of the negativity I think can be ascribed to a reaction against denying the validity of critiques.

Agreed!

However, it does seem that there are a lot of people at least on this site who are saying  that "2d20 is not my cup of tea." Maybe that's just the crowd that hangs out here, maybe they're just vocal, I don't know, but it seems like there is a substantial population who dislikes the system. I am hoping that Modiphius will do something product-wize to include or induce these players and GMs like a set of optional rules for more traditional play styles, or branching out to other systems.  Its' probably wishful thinking, but it would sure be a lot easier on guys like Jason who have to double as PR reps.  I also think it would be better for the longevity of the game perhaps preventing the same fate as d20 Conan.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880447My original specific point, and the reason I joined this forum, was that the cooperative dynamics of momentum and the sense of karmic cosmic balance created by the doom mechanic seem objectively contradictory to REH's themes found in his Conan stories.  Since I am no good at understanding the functionality of meta-mechanics, I wanted someone to explain to me how these mechanics were thematic to REH's Conan stories.

They aren't. However, such mechanics are very thematic to Jay Little's game design (FFG Star Wars, Warhammer 3E).

QuoteI figured, with all the talk of REH purity, that these mechanics had some setting litmus test, that they were specifically crafted to enhance roleplay in REHs Hyborian Age.

They were crafted for Mutant Chronicles IIRC, then modified for Infinty and the Conan game. Next will be John Carter of Mars.

Quote from: Sytthas;880448These mechanics have less to do with Howardian themes as they do with Howardian (or adventure story, generally) story structure and pacing.

Why would adventures taking place in Hyboria need to follow the structure and pacing of a Howardian story?

This keeps sounding worse and worse the more I hear about it.  Definite pass.

Quote from: 3rik;880619Why would adventures taking place in Hyboria need to follow the structure and pacing of a Howardian story?

Well, I mean, like I said, that's (a) just my interpretation of the mechanics and (b) it sounds like the devs are both clear about and comfortable with the fact that not everyone will be on board with their mechanical choices, nor do I have any interest in selling folks on them, but just for the sake of argument, I will now tell you a short tale of Conan with a distinctly non-Howardian (non-adventure-story) structure and pacing (it'll also be pretty destitute of description, but that's not a mechanical consideration under discussion), and you can decide for yourself if it's interesting at all. It'll also be profoundly hyperbolic, but that's just internet argument par. Here goes:

Conan once encountered a large Pictish war party. The battle was long and bloody, but the Pictish numbers could not best Conan's ferocity and skill. He won handily. The end.

(The better question would be "why do we need mechanics to drive story structure at all?"  But since you didn't ask that, the answer as to why you might want a Howardian/adventure story structure in a game set in Hyboria would be "because it makes for an interesting/exciting sequence of events.")

Quote from: 3rik;880619Why would adventures taking place in Hyboria need to follow the structure and pacing of a Howardian story?

It doesn't anywhere else than the developers' heads.

Quote from: 3rik;880619Why would adventures taking place in Hyboria need to follow the structure and pacing of a Howardian story?

Adventures in Hyboria - they don't.
Stories about Hyboria - they do.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880679Adventures in Hyboria - they don't.
Stories about Hyboria - they do.

At that point the question (which is non-judgmental) becomes:  What do players want?

Personally, and I know my crew wants (and I want to stress it's MY crew and opinion here, not speaking for anyone else), to have adventures in Hyboria.  We can read the stories about it on the Guttenberg site.

QuoteOriginally Posted by 3rik
Why would adventures taking place in Hyboria need to follow the structure and pacing of a Howardian story?

QuoteOriginally Posted by CRKrueger
Adventures in Hyboria - they don't.
Stories about Hyboria - they do.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher Brady
At that point the question (which is non-judgmental) becomes: What do players want?

Personally, and I know my crew wants (and I want to stress it's MY crew and opinion here, not speaking for anyone else), to have adventures in Hyboria. We can read the stories about it on the Guttenberg site.

In my experience, Howard-like structure, pacing and stories make great one offs, campaign climaxes and intense sessions but you cannot maintain that pace and structure in a protracted campaign session after session without burnout and the players becoming jaded.  In a campaign, sometimes you have to slow down, sand box a little bit and let the players explore the world.  You want to get back to that Howardian intensity, but in order for it to work it needs to be punctuated.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880717In my experience, Howard-like structure, pacing and stories make great one offs, campaign climaxes and intense sessions but you cannot maintain that pace and structure in a protracted campaign session after session without burnout and the players becoming jaded.  In a campaign, sometimes you have to slow down, sand box a little bit and let the players explore the world.  You want to get back to that Howardian intensity, but in order for it to work it needs to be punctuated.

That's one of the downsides of a more narrative design.  It's a more tightly focused experience and so you have to be "on" to really have it work.  It's an engine, usually requiring input from both sides, and both have to be invested to get the engine running.  The more you put into one of these games, the more you get out of it.  The thing is, you can't keep that up every single session, every single week.  That's why narrative games make great Con games or one-shots or have an episodic nature.

In a traditional roleplaying game the rising and falling of intensity comes organically, from player choice.  You finish doing what you were doing, then choose to take time off.  Maybe you're laying low like Shadowrun or spending money on ale and whores like Conan, or you're spending time in the city, training, buying, investing, or you're going back to Arkham University to do more research on the Key of Anathesis, or whatever.  When you decide to get into things again, you do.

A narrative game tends to mechanize things that happen organically in roleplaying.  So you have dictated "off-cycles".  Pendragon Grand Campaign has the Winter Phase.  Mouse Guard and the One Ring have similar structured downtime phases.  As the Doom Pool Engine doesn't seem to be too useful for ales and whoring, there will probably be some structured downtime in the 2d20 Conan game, although they may advocate simply roleplaying it.

If they are following Howard's Conan structure, then it's possible that they might simply start In Media Res.  In other words, every couple weeks you get together to find out what your characters got themselves into now.  There may even be tables or something to determine what happens in between "scenes" like Necromunda or Mordheim.  In a structured campaign, the downcycles will be structured somehow, the episodic adventures will probably go In Media Res, like Howard's Conan stories did.

QuoteOriginally posted by CRKrueger
That's one of the downsides of a more narrative design. It's a more tightly focused experience and so you have to be "on" to really have it work. It's an engine, usually requiring input from both sides, and both have to be invested to get the engine running. The more you put into one of these games, the more you get out of it. The thing is, you can't keep that up every single session, every single week. That's why narrative games make great Con games or one-shots or have an episodic nature.

In a traditional roleplaying game the rising and falling of intensity comes organically, from player choice. You finish doing what you were doing, then choose to take time off. Maybe you're laying low like Shadowrun or spending money on ale and whores like Conan, or you're spending time in the city, training, buying, investing, or you're going back to Arkham University to do more research on the Key of Anathesis, or whatever. When you decide to get into things again, you do.

A narrative game tends to mechanize things that happen organically in roleplaying. So you have dictated "off-cycles". Pendragon Grand Campaign has the Winter Phase. Mouse Guard and the One Ring have similar structured downtime phases. As the Doom Pool Engine doesn't seem to be too useful for ales and whoring, there will probably be some structured downtime in the 2d20 Conan game, although they may advocate simply roleplaying it.

If they are following Howard's Conan structure, then it's possible that they might simply start In Media Res. In other words, every couple weeks you get together to find out what your characters got themselves into now. There may even be tables or something to determine what happens in between "scenes" like Necromunda or Mordheim. In a structured campaign, the downcycles will be structured somehow, the episodic adventures will probably go In Media Res, like Howard's Conan stories did.

Yeah, I have to admit that episodic play is pretty Howardian, I just know from experience that you can't keep up that level of intensity in campaign play or it all starts to run together.  Like you said, it has to "flow organically from player choice" - they're the bloody heroes. You know, no game mechanics can pace an adventure as well as a human being who knows what he is doing and can pick up on vibes and queues from his players.

I don't necessarily mind structured downtime sometimes.  It works for Pendragon.  I'd be interested to see how they approach the time that Howard forgot - all the stuff that happens between adventures.  Maybe they'll just ignore it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880727As the Doom Pool Engine doesn't seem to be too useful for ales and whoring, there will probably be some structured downtime in the 2d20 Conan game, although they may advocate simply roleplaying it.

That is a great idea for a LARP and sure sounds fun to me;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;880762That is a great idea for a LARP and sure sounds fun to me;)!

Oh the White Wolf 90's, when I was young and Goth chicks were plentiful. *sigh*

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880668It doesn't anywhere else than the developers' heads.

It's interesting to be told what's in our heads, especially when it's nothing like what we're doing.

Seriously, guys, you're overthinking this whole "story emulator vs roleplaying" thing. I don't know why you're belaboring it, either.

Does it somehow give comfort to think that the game development team is trying to pull a fast one and throw together a game people don't want to actually play? Everyone involved with the project is a hardcore gamer with a love of the setting. There's no weird secret agenda to subvert traditional gaming. We're just using a new system which we think brings the sorts of energy and player freedom to the table that we're looking for.

In every instance I've run the game for new players, there's been this initial feeling of "huh" when I describe how it works, and once gameplay begins, people jump into action sequences wholeheartedly and have fun.

Quote from: Jason D;880778Does it somehow give comfort to think that the game development team is trying to pull a fast one and throw together a game people don't want to actually play? Everyone involved with the project is a hardcore gamer with a love of the setting. There's no weird secret agenda to subvert traditional gaming. We're just using a new system which we think brings the sorts of energy and player freedom to the table that we're looking for.

No, I don't think they are trying to subvert traditional gaming, but I can quote you from the Modiphius forums the concerns I raised almost a year ago and the responses from Nathan and Benn that they were quite aware that...

1. This was a narrative game that might turn off a lot of traditional players.
2. They understood that and accepted that as a result of the game they wanted to make.

So, now a little history...
D&D4 - New D&D woohoo - and then the game that wasn't really D&D so it couldn't be OGL'd and the marketing campaign that declared if you liked any previous version of D&D feel free to die in a fire.

WFRP3 - New Warhammer woohoo - a totally abstract, narrative system with cards, tokens, and funky dice.

Marvel Super Heroes - a new Marvel game, woohoo - storytelling mechanics that even Tim "Punch Spidey in the Mary Jane" Kirk declared there was enough room between player and character to drive a battleship through.

CoC7 - New Cthulhu, woohoo - with narrative "push" mechanic.  Really, CoC?  There's Fate Cthulhu, Savage Worlds Cthulhu, fricking Trail of Cthulhu and what the original Cthulhu needed was a narrative mechanic?  WTF?

D&D5 - Well still a WotC card-err power-based game, but it least it looks and feels like D&D, well mostly.

RQ6 - Sweet Christ, finally, in ten fucking years an honest to god roleplaying game that actually kicks all kinds of ass. (Yeah the Laundry kicked ass too, but a little more specialized :D)

Conan - perhaps not the richest IP in all of fantasy, but definitely the most bad-ass.  Positively chock to the brim with OOC narrative mechanics.  If Crom could weep...

It's just disappointment, that's all.  Yet again, a big, long-standing, IP, historically represented in RPGs through traditional systems, goes to a company that chooses a highly narrative new system that by choice, cuts out a chunk of players.  It's just a "fuck me, not again" kind of response. It's nothing personal.

Quote from: Jason D;880778In every instance I've run the game for new players, there's been this initial feeling of "huh" when I describe how it works, and once gameplay begins, people jump into action sequences wholeheartedly and have fun.

I don't doubt that it's fun.  Spirit of the Century is fun. Necromunda is fun.  Wasteland 2 is fun.  Different kinds of fun.

The most successful narrative campaigns are usually measured in sessions.
The most successful immersive campaigns are usually measured in years.

When you are playing in a story, stories end.
When you are living the life of your character, it only ends when they do.
Different types of fun.

I prefer roleplaying with systems that get out of the way and let me immerse in character, and campaigns that are complex and go on for a long time.

Narrative games are one-shots or limited things I play in between roleplaying sessions.

It's not that the game isn't fun for what it is, it's that what it is isn't fun for some and for others not what they wanted out of a Conan game filled with Howard scholars and an art team that includes Brom and Sanjulian.

So, being the only Modiphius person to set foot over here lately, you're the focal point of the disappointment.

But, this is theRPGsite, even friends clash hard over here.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880792D&D5 - Well still a WotC card-err power-based game, but it least it looks and feels like D&D, well mostly.

er? I do not see any of them in the credits for 5e? And its not power based really. Not compared to 3 and 4 at least. It just caters to the endless bitching about "how my pet class cant do X like that class can!" fore every class. Without going too overboard.

As for the yin-yang style power-play between players and DM in this new Conan game. Quick question then.

How would it play without that mechanic?

Quote from: CRKrueger;880770Oh the White Wolf 90's, when I was young and Goth chicks were plentiful. *sigh*

I can see a reason why White Wolf got such traction so quickly, then:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;880792It's just disappointment, that's all.  Yet again, a big, long-standing, IP, historically represented in RPGs through traditional systems, goes to a company that chooses a highly narrative new system that by choice, cuts out a chunk of players.  It's just a "fuck me, not again" kind of response. It's nothing personal.

Yeah, that sums up how I feel about some of those games you mentioned, especially Marvel Super Heroes and Conan. I downloaded the quickstart for Conan and it doesn't look like I'll be interested. I did get into the d20 version from Mongoose for awhile and was hoping for something traditional this time. Oh well, I won't complain, I'll just pass.

Well, even if I am a die-hard RQ6 fan and thus, that system would be my first choice for a Conan game, I have to say that Jason D has made a great job of selling the game, and I'm checking the quickstart. Maybe it will be for me, maybe it won't, but such a professional attitude does a lot to convince me that a game is worth checking it out.

Also, I agree with CRKrueger: is best to take the criticism here in the best possible way.

Finally: this ying-yang mechanic is not new. In 7th Sea, every time a player spent a Dramatic Dice, that dice went to the GMs pool. Actually, it was the only way the GM could refresh his pool. So, every time the players spent a Drama Dice they knew (because we used glass beads) that they were giving me more ammo. And that was great :D

QuoteSo, now a little history...
D&D4 - New D&D woohoo - and then the game that wasn't really D&D so it couldn't be OGL'd and the marketing campaign that declared if you liked any previous version of D&D feel free to die in a fire.

WFRP3 - New Warhammer woohoo - a totally abstract, narrative system with cards, tokens, and funky dice.

Marvel Super Heroes - a new Marvel game, woohoo - storytelling mechanics that even Tim "Punch Spidey in the Mary Jane" Kirk declared there was enough room between player and character to drive a battleship through.

CoC7 - New Cthulhu, woohoo - with narrative "push" mechanic. Really, CoC? There's Fate Cthulhu, Savage Worlds Cthulhu, fricking Trail of Cthulhu and what the original Cthulhu needed was a narrative mechanic? WTF?

D&D5 - Well still a WotC card-err power-based game, but it least it looks and feels like D&D, well mostly.

RQ6 - Sweet Christ, finally, in ten fucking years an honest to god roleplaying game that actually kicks all kinds of ass. (Yeah the Laundry kicked ass too, but a little more specialized )

Conan - perhaps not the richest IP in all of fantasy, but definitely the most bad-ass. Positively chock to the brim with OOC narrative mechanics. If Crom could weep...

It's just disappointment, that's all. Yet again, a big, long-standing, IP, historically represented in RPGs through traditional systems, goes to a company that chooses a highly narrative new system that by choice, cuts out a chunk of players. It's just a "fuck me, not again" kind of response. It's nothing personal.  

Amen, brother, Amen!

It also seems like there are a *lot* of people here who agree with you, who are either frustrated with the system or who are just saying "its not my cup of tea." It sure seems like Modiphius could do something for this disgruntled group of potential customers other than hang poor Jason out to dry.  I deeply appreciate Jason's attitude and participation here, but why can't Modiphius just say "here, we're going to give you an official set of optional rules that accommodates traditional play styles,"  or "you know, were gonna go ahead and hire Loz and Pete to do an RQ6 version of the core book under Jeff and Jason's supervision," or "Jason's got BRP chops, here you go."  It would resolve this mess, turn frustration into fandom, and it couldn't be that expensive compared to what they are spending on art and such - hell, they have like 12 books planned just for setting - why couldn't they do one more for system? I'd back it big time.

If they really are using Conan as a vehicle just to propel their system and RPG ideology, they got to know that that plan is gonna go over like WFRP3 or D&D 4.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880860If they really are using Conan as a vehicle just to propel their system and RPG ideology, they got to know that that plan is gonna go over like WFRP3 or D&D 4.

Don't all publishers want to propel their house system:)? Cortex is doing that, and MWP was doing fine last I heard.

Quote£188,222
pledged of £45,000 goal
26
days to go

They seem to be doing fine as well;).

Quote from: AsenRG;880872Don't all publishers want to propel their house system:)? Cortex is doing that, and MWP was doing fine last I heard.


They seem to be doing fine as well;).

Take a look at Kicktraq.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880881Take a look at Kicktraq.

Though the Conan KS is doing just fine by almost any KS measurement, I think that the boost from the Conan licence makes it difficult to determine the exact impact of 2d20 or any other factors.

One thing I do note is that the Conan KS is not doing appreciable any better than the Infinity KS. Though the Infinity IP was attractive, I would be surprised if it had the breadth and depth of Conan.

Again, its hard to determine why exactly this is based on the pledge numbers alone, and the fact that the Conan KS is giving less per $ than the Infinity KS.

My point is that the audience for a Conan RPG has got to be broader than the audience for the 2d20 system.  It seems like they could make more money if they tried to capture that breadth by appealing to a wider audience of roleplayers.  The audience of "people who like RPGs and Conan" has got to be bigger than "people who like 2d20 and Conan."

Quote from: Madprofessor;880886My point is that the audience for a Conan RPG has got to be broader than the audience for the 2d20 system.  It seems like they could make more money if they tried to capture that breadth by appealing to a wider audience of roleplayers.  The audience of "people who like RPGs and Conan" has got to be bigger than "people who like 2d20 and Conan."

Simply creating something based on the current popularity is a sure fire way to get crap. In any case, I think 2d20 is doing exactly what you are suggesting by trying to market to as many of the larger groups out there, with a compromise of system. At its core, it is pretty much a traditional BRP/d20 rule set, and to compromise they have placed their only real narrative mechanic (Momentum/Doom) in the forefront to capture a wider audience.

IMO the result is not good as it sours the taste for either group, but it will likely appeal more broadly as a result.

QuoteSimply creating something based on the current popularity is a sure fire way to get crap. In any case, I think 2d20 is doing exactly what you are suggesting by trying to market to as many of the larger groups out there, with a compromise of system. At its core, it is pretty much a traditional BRP/d20 rule set, and to compromise they have placed their only real narrative mechanic (Momentum/Doom) in the forefront to capture a wider audience.

You could be right, but I don't see 2d20 as a compromise system at all.  Perhaps that's because there are no narrativists here complaining and I assumed that they are all pretty happy with the system.  In any case, the game is unplayable as a traditional style game because the narrative mecahnics are woven into every facet of the system.  They're not bolt-on sub-sytstems that you can remove.  Maybe I am just out of touch with the current RPG markets/fanbases.  Maybe traditional roleplaying is dead to the point where we can call this a compromise and I just don't know it, but to me this system is fully immersed in narration metagame land.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880894You could be right, but I don't see 2d20 as a compromise system at all.  Perhaps that's because there are no narrativists here complaining and I assumed that they are all pretty happy with the system.  In any case, the game is unplayable as a traditional style game because the narrative mecahnics are woven into every facet of the system.  They're not bolt-on sub-sytstems that you can remove.  Maybe I am just out of touch with the current RPG markets/fanbases.  Maybe traditional roleplaying is dead to the point where we can call this a compromise and I just don't know it, but to me this system is fully immersed in narration metagame land.

I think it more likely that there are narrativists (if there is such a term) here to complain :)

From what I can see Conan 2d20 is primarily a traditional RPG, though in the scope of TheRPGSite I am likely the extreme end of the spectrum from CRKrueger on this matter. The only real narrative mechanic I can see is the Momentum/Doom mechanic. I think it would be less offensive if these were split and treated more like a drama point system like in Savage Worlds or WFRP given that such is almost ubiquitous these days.

I haven't had a chance to look at the sample but if the narrative mechanics are hard to extricate from the rules as written, then that's probably why Modiphius doesn't want to make the effort; and of course they aren't going to write a whole other system.

As for why they don't put in a stretch goal for a Savage Worlds conversion or whatever, I don't know. I can't think of any reason other than either (a) they don't think it's necessary (obviously they haven't read this thread) or (b) they really want to hype their house system on the back of Conan, so allowing an alternative would work counter to that.

One other possibility: the license doesn't allow them to stat multiple systems. If I were the IP owner I might prefer to do short-term licenses for various rules sets. Whether I get a royalty or a straight fee I could hope for each one to make a splash in sequence rather than just one rollout followed by a long tail.

Skywalker, I am really glad to have your perspective.  What do you see in this game that makes you think 2d20 Conan is traditional like "BRP/d20," a task resolution system?  I'm not being sarcastic, really, I just can't imagine what would lead you to that conclusion.

QuoteI haven't had a chance to look at the sample but if the narrative mechanics are hard to extricate from the rules as written, then that's probably why Modiphius doesn't want to make the effort

They are very difficult to extricate from the system.  It was discussed up-thread.

Quoteand of course they aren't going to write a whole other system.

I guess.  Its not like writing a traditional system is rocket science.  You could take the 2d20 short pool mechanic and the basic character structure and make a traditional system with it that fits Conan in 30 pages or so.  Not bragging or anything, but I could get the essence of it together in a long weekend.

QuoteAs for why they don't put in a stretch goal for a Savage Worlds conversion or whatever, I don't know. I can't think of any reason other than either (a) they don't think it's necessary (obviously they haven't read this thread) or (b) they really want to hype their house system on the back of Conan, so allowing an alternative would work counter to that.

It's hard to believe that its (a).  People seem pretty darn vocal here and I think they were on other forums as well - including Modiphius' own.

I don't quite get (b) either.  It doesn't seem like rigid dedication to a house system at the expense of alienating many potential customers is good business.

QuoteOne other possibility: the license doesn't allow them to stat multiple systems. If I were the IP owner I might prefer to do short-term licenses for various rules sets. Whether I get a royalty or a straight fee I could hope for each one to make a splash in sequence rather than just one rollout followed by a long tail.

I never thought of that. It could be.

I'm guessing that given some of the MVP's of the Howardesque are involved that the fluff is going to be top notch.

Quote from: Imperator;880829Finally: this ying-yang mechanic is not new. In 7th Sea, every time a player spent a Dramatic Dice, that dice went to the GMs pool. Actually, it was the only way the GM could refresh his pool. So, every time the players spent a Drama Dice they knew (because we used glass beads) that they were giving me more ammo. And that was great :D

Personally, I kinda like that kind of visual resource mechanic.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880917Skywalker, I am really glad to have your perspective.  What do you see in this game that makes you think 2d20 Conan is traditional like "BRP/d20," a task resolution system?  I'm not being sarcastic, really, I just can't imagine what would lead you to that conclusion.

You have an attribute + skill number, which you must roll a d20 equal to or under. The first is d20 and the later BRP with a d20 rather than a d100. The talents are pretty much d20 feats too. That looks to be over 75% of all rules interaction with the system.

The damage system is not narrative, though its weird and oblique.

The only thing that stands out to me as overtly narrative is Momentum and Doom, and arguably the abstraction of ranges and movement.

Quote from: Skywalker;880929The only thing that stands out to me as overtly narrative is Momentum and Doom.

One of the designers of the system said in this thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?776325-Conan-KS-Live&p=19816161#post19816161) that "That's the heart of the system - the interplay between Momentum and Doom."

It seems pretty central.

Quote from: Enlightened;880932One of the designers of the system said in this thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?776325-Conan-KS-Live&p=19816161#post19816161) that "That's the heart of the system - the interplay between Momentum and Doom."

It seems pretty central.

I agree that its central to the system and one reason why I am not interested in this version of Conan as I don't like it (not because its narrative but because it creates an enforced minigame that the GM must play).

But I don't think that negates what I have said about the rest of the system being otherwise of a traditional nature.

Based on that summary it sounds like this system has a fundamental problem.

If rolling more d20s and giving the GM Doom points to play with is a good idea, then why not do it constantly? On the other hand if you're afraid of what the GM can do with Doom, then you shouldn't give up any.

Granted that some rolls are more important than others, but the GM can play the same game and bank Doom for use when maximum hurt can be inflicted. Unless Doom has a half-life--does it?--to encourage use-it-or-lose-it.

Alternatively it seems to me that the marginal Doom cost of adding d20s should go up with each d20.

Because otherwise the "doom economy" seems to depend on the GM not really having the guts or wherewithal to make the PCs pay for pushing their luck.

Quote from: Skywalker;880934I agree that its central to the system and one reason why I am not interested in this version of Conan as I don't like it (not because its narrative but because it creates an enforced minigame that the GM must play).

But I don't think that negates what I have said about the rest of the system being otherwise of a traditional nature.

The issue is the size.  That minigame as you call it (which is both clever and correct in my opinion) dominates and overshadows everything else.  And I can't tell for what particular benefit.

And it's one question that no one has answered:  Why?  Why is it there?

I would like someone else on the team other than Mr. Dural (I hope I'm spelling his name right.  If not, please correct me) because as someone else put it, given how he's the only one of them defending it, it feels like Modiphius is throwing him under the bus.  And quite frankly, I find it unfair.

Ultimately how much weight you give to one mechanic is a personal judgement, but I get the issue and can totally see why someone would chose not to buy the RPG because of it.

As a separate issue, the fact that Modiphius may be hiring Gareth Michael Skarka to write for one of the Conan books is another nail in its coffin, even if its only once he finishes Far West.

Quote from: Skywalker;880940As a separate issue, the fact that Modiphius may be hiring Gareth Michael Skarka to write for one of the Conan books is another nail in its coffin, even if its only once he finishes Far West.

Total Tangent:  Again, it proves my point that the Far West debacle hasn't actually harmed him or his reputation in any way.

(And that's the last I will say on that HERE.)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880942Total Tangent:  Again, it proves my point that the Far West debacle hasn't actually harmed him or his reputation in any way.

(And that's the last I will say on that HERE.)

Yep. He somehow manages to his professional contacts happy but cares nothing for his customers. No doubt that's why he delivers on time for other companies but is OK with lying, insulting and delivering late to his own personal customers.

Either way, I am out.

QuoteOriginally posted by Enlightened
One of the designers of the system said in this thread that "That's the heart of the system - the interplay between Momentum and Doom."

It seems pretty central.

Yup, at least from my reading and playtest (another playtest coming tonight) everything from combat, to simple task resolution, NPC action, spellcasting or power activation depends on and/or interacts with the momentum/doom economy.  It pretty much is the game.

QuoteYou have an attribute + skill number, which you must roll a d20 equal to or under. The first is d20 and the later BRP with a d20 rather than a d100. The talents are pretty much d20 feats too. That looks to be over 75% of all rules interaction with the system.

The damage system is not narrative, though its weird and oblique.

The only thing that stands out to me as overtly narrative is Momentum and Doom, and arguably the abstraction of ranges and movement.

The momentum/doom economy is ubiquitous and used in every aspect of the game to the point that the game does not function without them.  The fact that this system and BRP both use roll under - with dice - is the extent of the games' similarities.

You might like the doom/momentum mechanic - power to you! I am trying to learn to like it too, but you can't choose to favor the traditional aspects in this game and ignore the metagame.  The game won't function.  Unless I am completely out of my mind, this is not a traditional game.  It just isn't.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880953You might like the doom/momentum mechanic - power to you!

As stated, I dislike the doom/momentum mechanic.

QuoteAs stated, I dislike the doom/momentum mechanic.

So you did. :o my mistake. Sorry. Though it was not my main point, it was a dumb thing for me to say. What people like or don't like isn't my concern.

Quote from: Skywalker;880940Ultimately how much weight you give to one mechanic is a personal judgement, but I get the issue and can totally see why someone would chose not to buy the RPG because of it.

As a separate issue, the fact that Modiphius may be hiring Gareth Michael Skarka to write for one of the Conan books is another nail in its coffin, even if its only once he finishes Far West.

Once he finishes Far West...in other words, never?

(And isn't he supposed to finish Buckaroo Banzai next?)

Quote from: Madprofessor;880968So you did. :o my mistake. Sorry. Though it was not my main point, it was a dumb thing for me to say. What people like or don't like isn't my concern.

No worries. As said, I sit on the opposite end of the spectrum as CRKrueger as to tolerance for narrative mechanics. Though that one mechanic is central to the system, the majority of the system seems traditional to me.

Leaving all that aside, ultimately, I think CRK's analysis in his first few posts is accurate. My issue with the Momentum/Doom mechanic is much simpler. It  is just not very good.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880978The bold part is exactly it.  There's the school of thought that I heard about on TBP where it was assumed that ALL Game Masters were out of control power mad scum.  No one actually said this, but every 'darling' for a long time had some sort of game mechanic that was specific to holding the Game Master's power in 'check'.  The new version of Fudge known as FATE, which they still love over there, has that mechanic front and center.  The GM cannot do anything unless he has explicit permission from the players in the form of a give and take system.  Cortex has a similar mechanic.

Quote from: Matt;880972Why would a GM need to accumulate Doom Points (or whatever) to raise enough zombies or allow the snake to use his hypnotic powers and such (as mentioned above)? Does not the gm just use his judgment for these things? Is he supposed to be beholden to mechanics? I don't get it.

This is from the Modiphius website, the poster is Nathan Dowdell of Modiphius.  The bolded sections are points made by others, which he is responding to, the unbolded text is his post.

As Doom was not called Doom yet, he is the using the term as it exists from Mutant Chronicles, Dark Symmetry.

Quote from: Nathan DowdellThe thing with unlimited power style GMing... it doesn't come with guidelines. It doesn't come with any natural 'shape'. It depends purely on the proclivities and inclinations of the GM. And, while there are plenty of good GMs out there, you can't design assuming that the GM knows what he's doing (it's a fundamental problem with the hobby - it spreads only at the rate new people are willing to GM, and that's not an easy obstacle to overcome).

I'm personally not opposed to there being limits on the GM, and I say this as someone whose first GMing experiences were Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st edition) and D&D. Similarly, I'm personally inclined to move at least a little of the "narrative power" to the players.

In a lot of cases, Dark Symmetry points serve as a mirror to equivalent player abilities for the NPCs. In this regard, they're not changing what you can do with NPCs, but rather giving you a version of the same tools that the PCs have with which to do those things. If I'm running a Mutant Chronicles session, I can use Dark Symmetry Points as Reloads, rather than tracking exactly how many Reloads every single NPC has (which is more hassle than it's worth - it's saving me time and effort which can be better spent setting the scene and running the rest of the game). PCs pay points into the Dark Symmetry pool to take Response actions - in parallel, NPCs spend those points to perform Response actions. The mechanics have a degree of symmetry in this sense.

When it comes to the GM's authority, it doesn't actually have that much impact in practice. The GM sets the scene and establishes the environments no differently to in any other RPG, and Dark Symmetry points don't figure into that. It comes into play more during scenes, and I've seen plenty of feedback that they make the GM more of an active participant rather than an omniscient narrator - the GM gets to 'play', in a way that few "unlimited power GM" style games allow (and I say this from personal experience). In my personal experience, they take some of the burden away as well - there are fewer little details of timing and threat and challenge I need to keep track of, and more things I can leave to the narrative pacing provided organically by the resource pool. I'm not tracking "X time until Y" or "reinforcements arrive when..." or similar things like that, but spending points from the pool to make them happen.

It is a different style of GMing, certainly, but I'm not convinced it's an unpopular one.

1) It limits the GM (as I see it) which I think complicates telling a good story.

I don't see those limits as inherently problematic, and unlimited GM power isn't inherently a good thing. A skilled, experienced GM is a great thing for that traditional style... but such GMs are rare, in my experience.

2) It creates an antagonistic relationship between players and GM which violates basic RPG etiquette, and again complicates telling a good story. As a GM, I want to be a fan of my PCs, just as I am a fan of Conan.

I adhere strongly to the "be a fan of the characters" philosophy myself. The points economy - as demonstrated in games like Fate that use similar economies more extensively - don't inherently produce an antagonistic relationship between players and GMs, and that kind of antagonism can actually cause the game to stagnate.

I feel that "being a fan of the characters" requires threat and challenge. I'm not trying to kill player characters, I'm trying to make them suffer as Joss Whedon does to the characters in his shows, because when the characters suffer, they're all the more driven to adventure (nobody adventures when they're content with their lot in life). Most of the things I spend Dark Symmetry points on are ways to make the player characters' lives "interesting" (as a euphemism for "difficult in a way that drives the story".

3) It detracts from immersion by forcing players to focus on the meta-game rather than the Hyborain Age setting, story, and adventure. The talk at the table should be about green-stone ruins and sorcerous plots, not about the Dark Symmetry point economy. I am not against meta-game mechanics for some settings – but it is not what I want for a game based on literature.

My sessions have never had an overt focus on the game at the expense of the story. There needs to be a balance between story and game, IMO. If you're playing an RPG, then there should be at least some "playing the game" there, in addition to the story that sits atop the framework of the rules.

4) It hurts the pace of the game because every player action requires a mechanical decision about how many dice to roll. It will bog down play. I think everybody can agree that pace is critical to generating a Howard-like story.

I can understand the reluctance here, but it's not borne out in practice - I've seen plenty of feedback saying how fast-paced the game is in practice.

There are a lot of games where the individual mechanical components don't seem to line up, but where the end result works in practice - games that play a lot better than they read.

5)When you say "obviously, it's not for everyone," you should look long and hard at that thought. I understand the impossibility of pleasing the entire RPG crowd. But there is a kind of mainstream (ask WoTC), I can't say I speak for this mainstream, but I think perhaps targeting new players as if they need help with GMing is perhaps the wrong approach to the ultimate Conan RPG.

I think pointing to WoTC as an example of the maintstream is a tricky subject - the entire public playtest for 5th edition D&D was based around whether or not the game "feels like D&D", which tended to produce a number of contradictory responses.

Even within the most mainstream RPG, there's a lot of "you can't please everyone". 2D20 veers more towards the narrative than simulationist in a lot of areas, with a lot of abstractions of elements that many mainstream-style games handle precisely (such as ammo, or distances - elements tracked in detail as a legacy of the wargame roots of RPGs). The Dark Symmetry pool (as it's known in Mutant Chronicles) is a part of that - narrative games tend to give a little more narrative power to the players and a little less to the GM, and tend to govern events and situations abstractly rather than in specific details.

*Jumps ship*  I'm done.  This is so un-Conan that it hurts me.  :(

Given how well that it's Kickstarter is doing, that's great, but it's not for me.  And as much as it saddens me to say this, as big a fan of S&S and Conan I am, I will walk away now.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880881Take a look at Kicktraq.

Took a look, didn't find the projected circa 600k pounds to be anything to scoff at;).

Quote from: Madprofessor;880886My point is that the audience for a Conan RPG has got to be broader than the audience for the 2d20 system.  It seems like they could make more money if they tried to capture that breadth by appealing to a wider audience of roleplayers.  The audience of "people who like RPGs and Conan" has got to be bigger than "people who like 2d20 and Conan."

But it also translates to less people getting used to their native systems. And the more people get used to it, the better the chance of more sales of their other games.
I can't blame them for making a business decision:). They're a business, and they have to follow business logic. Fan logic is known to lead to complications when it conflicts with business logic.

BTW, if they try to follow fan logic and fail, a lot of the same people calling for them following the fan logic will want them to be accountable at the level of accountability we reserve for businesses:D! I think there are some such people in this thread, too, but I can't be bothered to check post histories.

Quote from: CRKrueger;880984This is from the Modiphius website, the poster is Nathan Dowdell of Modiphius.  The bolded sections are points made by others, which he is responding to, the unbolded text is his post.

As Doom was not called Doom yet, he is the using the term as it exists from Mutant Chronicles, Dark Symmetry.

Well, I agree with him on at least one thing.
System as guideline for GMs is a blessing for any GM that's not both experienced in Refereeing and familiar with the genre, or in this case, with the original REH stories.

Quote from: AsenRG;881003Well, I agree with him on at least one thing.
System as guideline for GMs is a blessing for any GM that's not both experienced in Refereeing and familiar with the genre, or in this case, with the original REH stories.

Really?  You think that having a system that can potentially hobble a GM's creativity is a good thing?  Man, you musta had some really BAD GMs in your day...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881005Really?  You think that having a system that can potentially hobble a GM's creativity is a good thing?  Man, you musta had some really BAD GMs in your day...

I agree. That last thing I want the system doing is making that level of choice for me. MHRP's Doom pool was a massive turn off for similar reasons. I found myself bucking against it at every turn. "GM control" rules seem to be popular but they are not my cuppa.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881005Really?  You think that having a system that can potentially hobble a GM's creativity is a good thing?  Man, you musta had some really BAD GMs in your day...

Not "hobble", but "shape":). A system that can do the former isn't a good thing, but I haven't played or run one yet, so I can't comment.

A system that can do the former is a good thing, especially if the GM is merely as good as you seem to be, based on your own descriptions;).

Quote from: Madprofessor;880953Unless I am completely out of my mind, this is not a traditional game.  It just isn't.

As Imperator pointed out, certain aspects of the Doom mechanic are derived from AEG's 7th Sea RPG from the 1990s. I can agree that it worked fine there, but it is a OOC meta-mini-game.

Of course, what each of us considers a "traditional game" is going to vary. And that's okay.

I could absolutely pitch Tunnels & Trolls as new fangled school, even though the game was published in 1976.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;880919I'm guessing that given some of the MVP's of the Howardesque are involved that the fluff is going to be top notch.

The best Conan fluff would just be quoting descriptive passages from REH's own tales. Everything else is fanfic - and I really like well written fanfic (I love Marvel's Conan).

Quote from: CRKrueger;880794So, being the only Modiphius person to set foot over here lately, you're the focal point of the disappointment.

But, this is theRPGsite, even friends clash hard over here.

Agreed. Major kudos to Jason D for being cool about our shit splatter!

As I said before the KS is not for me, but I am absolutely open to trying out the game in a demo to see how the Momentum/Doom plays out at the table.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880939I would like someone else on the team other than Mr. Dural (I hope I'm spelling his name right.  If not, please correct me) because as someone else put it, given how he's the only one of them defending it, it feels like Modiphius is throwing him under the bus.  And quite frankly, I find it unfair.

One R, two Ls.

No one's throwing me under the bus.

We're all focusing on multiple projects, and as line developer I'd rather my system designers spend their time working on the actual game than getting into prolonged and (likely) fruitless discussions about design decisions that, as have been discussed earlier, are fundamentally about different approaches to game design.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880860It also seems like there are a *lot* of people here who agree with you, who are either frustrated with the system or who are just saying "its not my cup of tea." It sure seems like Modiphius could do something for this disgruntled group of potential customers other than hang poor Jason out to dry.  I deeply appreciate Jason's attitude and participation here, but why can't Modiphius just say "here, we're going to give you an official set of optional rules that accommodates traditional play styles,"  or "you know, were gonna go ahead and hire Loz and Pete to do an RQ6 version of the core book under Jeff and Jason's supervision," or "Jason's got BRP chops, here you go."  It would resolve this mess, turn frustration into fandom, and it couldn't be that expensive compared to what they are spending on art and such - hell, they have like 12 books planned just for setting - why couldn't they do one more for system? I'd back it big time.

Thanks for the sympathy, but I'm all right.

The primary reason we're not doing an adaptation (or at least planning one at this time) is that they're hugely resource-intensive and are historically poor sellers.

If you think of the core game as a road, system adaptations are (at best) a detour or a dead-end. They aren't supported by later materials, and it's time and production work that could be better spent on support for the core game line.

Speaking as the guy who wrote the BRP book, while a part of me would love to see a dedicated BRP Conan book, I'd rather get something new for the planned 2d20 line, like one of the many books on my wish-list that may not happen.

Quote from: Spinachcat;881019As I said before the KS is not for me, but I am absolutely open to trying out the game in a demo to see how the Momentum/Doom plays out at the table.

When's the next CA con?

Quote from: Skywalker;880940As a separate issue, the fact that Modiphius may be hiring Gareth Michael Skarka to write for one of the Conan books is another nail in its coffin, even if its only once he finishes Far West.

There's some disinformation floating around that.

I asked Gareth if he'd be interested in writing a standalone adventure when Far West is complete.

He's not a stretch goal author, and right now the one adventure I asked about is the extent of his involvement.

I have many, many authors working on standalone adventures, and for people I've not worked with before, successful completion of an adventure (and their professionalism) determines their future contributions on the line.

Quote from: The Butcher;880435As for the specifics of Doom/Fortune use, well, yeah, dick GMs will be dick GMs, and dick players will be dick players. Don't game with dicks?

My issue with Doom is on the other side...  I'm not concerned about other people at the table being dicks, but spending Doom to screw the PCs over makes me feel like I'm being a dick for making an absolute decision to cause Something Bad to happen to them.  (As opposed to placing a storm giant in their path which may or may not kill them.)  It's the difference between "Rocks fall.  Everyone dies." (death by GM fiat) and "[roll, roll]  You know those precarious-looking rocks I told you about and then you decided to walk under them?  Yeah, they just fell on you.  Save vs. breath weapon or die." (death by a combination of poor player decisions and random chance).  Spending metagame points to cause Bad Things to happen feels like the former to me and I prefer to stick to the latter.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880615However, it does seem that there are a lot of people at least on this site who are saying  that "2d20 is not my cup of tea." Maybe that's just the crowd that hangs out here, maybe they're just vocal, I don't know, but it seems like there is a substantial population who dislikes the system.

It's the crowd that hangs out here.  This is a very traditional-RPG-focused site, complete with Pundit (the site's owner) having made it clear that, after a certain point, he considers narrative games to stop being RPGs and instead become "storygames", which he defines as a completely different kind of thing than RPGs.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880860"you know, were gonna go ahead and hire Loz and Pete to do an RQ6 version of the core book under Jeff and Jason's supervision,"

I know there's absolutely no realistic chance of that happening, but, if it did, I would be all over that in a heartbeat.

Quote from: Arminius;880937Granted that some rolls are more important than others, but the GM can play the same game and bank Doom for use when maximum hurt can be inflicted. Unless Doom has a half-life--does it?--to encourage use-it-or-lose-it.

No, it doesn't.  The players' shared Momentum pool decays (losing one point at the end of each scene, or at the end of each round in [strike]combat[/strike] Action Scenes), but Doom is forever, until it gets spent.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880939The issue is the size.  That minigame as you call it (which is both clever and correct in my opinion) dominates and overshadows everything else.

That's pretty much my issue as well.  When I started reading the preview PDF, it all seemed OK.  I liked the idea of Doom gating what abilities opponents would use at any given time and so on.

Then I discovered that the GM is likely to start the game with a double-digit Doom pool (3 Doom per PC, so 4 players = 12 starting Doom) and that most Doom-gated abilities in the example adventure require no more than 2-3 Doom to trigger.  Seeing these numbers completely changed it from "a rare and powerful resource for the GM" into "flows like water, affecting most every action as it goes by".

I don't mind a minor side minigame that much, but, when the metapoint economy becomes the primary game...  No thanks.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881005Really?  You think that having a system that can potentially hobble a GM's creativity is a good thing?  Man, you musta had some really BAD GMs in your day...

I disagree that it's necessarily "hobbling," but for my part (with one or two brief exceptions being the only GM for our group), I'm fine with such mechanics in theory, though each must be weighed on its own merits.

Quote from: nDervish;881046My issue with Doom is on the other side...  I'm not concerned about other people at the table being dicks, but spending Doom to screw the PCs over makes me feel like I'm being a dick for making an absolute decision to cause Something Bad to happen to them.  (As opposed to placing a storm giant in their path which may or may not kill them.)  It's the difference between "Rocks fall.  Everyone dies." (death by GM fiat) and "[roll, roll]  You know those precarious-looking rocks I told you about and then you decided to walk under them?  Yeah, they just fell on you.  Save vs. breath weapon or die." (death by a combination of poor player decisions and random chance).  Spending metagame points to cause Bad Things to happen feels like the former to me and I prefer to stick to the latter.

It is quite ironic, because the whole point of such mechanics is actually to provide the reverse - the extraordinary opposition is generated from the pool of points, rather than GM fiat. In practice, if you haven't had problems with using group edge in SR, bennies in SW or Fate Points in, well, Fate - this won't prove to be any more issue.

QuoteThat's pretty much my issue as well.  When I started reading the preview PDF, it all seemed OK.  I liked the idea of Doom gating what abilities opponents would use at any given time and so on.

Then I discovered that the GM is likely to start the game with a double-digit Doom pool (3 Doom per PC, so 4 players = 12 starting Doom) and that most Doom-gated abilities in the example adventure require no more than 2-3 Doom to trigger.  Seeing these numbers completely changed it from "a rare and powerful resource for the GM" into "flows like water, affecting most every action as it goes by".

I don't mind a minor side minigame that much, but, when the metapoint economy becomes the primary game...  No thanks.

My advice - run a test Fate game. See if your players only focus on collecting Fate Points. Because in practice, I have seen maybe 1 - 2 players in my whole career, that actually "abused" the Bennies Retrieval/Fate Points/Edge Retrieval etc. etc. systems - as in deliberately disrupted the game to attempt to gain one of such resources. And they weren't very good players to begin with, so...

Because in practice, often the fear of such mechanic outweighs their actual use in play.

Quote from: Jason D;881039I asked Gareth if he'd be interested...

Jason, I think this point may have been missed on the Kickstarter page, so while your attention is here...

If you're commissioning people to work on the Conan project, please consider Guillaume Tavernier as an artist. His buildings/maps seem perfect for the Conan genre to my eye.

https://plus.google.com/106785353548003542653

Quote from: Stainless;881078Jason, I think this point may have been missed on the Kickstarter page, so while your attention is here...

If you're commissioning people to work on the Conan project, please consider Guillaume Tavernier as an artist. His buildings/maps seem perfect for the Conan genre to my eye.

https://plus.google.com/106785353548003542653

Very nice!

I'll pass this link along to our art manager and see what he thinks.

Thanks!

Quote from: AsenRG;881017Not "hobble", but "shape":). A system that can do the former isn't a good thing, but I haven't played or run one yet, so I can't comment.

A system that can do the former is a good thing, especially if the GM is merely as good as you seem to be, based on your own descriptions;).

No. The system as described does sound like hobbling the DM. It is also hobbling the players as it sets up a "The GM is the adversary" mindset on both and Jesus Christ I am sick of having to wean players off this idea that the GM is the enemy!

At a guess at least one of the designers then must have had a killer DM or close enough to instill such a view in them that they set out to protect others from falling victim too.

The weird thing is that seems the intent. But then they create a system that very firmly pushes the GM into the role of enemy? Very much "Me against You" rather than "We are all in this together."

That isnt to say the system is bad though. But it feels more like something for a board game. Not an RPG.

But in the end that is the designers ideals and approach. Its going to resonate with some and repel others. Kudos to getting this far with the whole concept and chugging away on the KS.

Quote from: Rincewind1;881057It is quite ironic, because the whole point of such mechanics is actually to provide the reverse - the extraordinary opposition is generated from the pool of points, rather than GM fiat

Yes, agreed.  Which is why I was initially accepting of the Doom mechanic when I thought they would be an extremely limited resource, requiring the GM to "save up" enough Doom to be able to drop the hammer.  But when you start with double-digit Doom in the pool and gain more every time a PC parries an attack or an opponent rolls well, then they stop being a meaningful limitation and you can arbitrarily say "the zombie strikes first, rolls an extra two dice, and inflicts +3 damage" pretty much any time you want to.

Quote from: Rincewind1;881057In practice, if you haven't had problems with using group edge in SR, bennies in SW or Fate Points in, well, Fate - this won't prove to be any more issue.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, when I was running Savage Worlds, if I started a session with six bennies on the table, the odds were better than 90% that I'd have six bennies on the table at the end of the session.

I've only run SR 1 and 2, which were Karma, not Edge, and didn't give the GM any kind of metapoints to spend against the PCs, so I can't say I've ever been in a position to spend (or not) group Edge.

And Fate...  I react poorly to Fate, in large part because the Fate Point economy is ubiquitous.  Pretty much every game-mechanical interaction is either about generating metagame points or determining how many metagame points you'll need to spend in order to succeed at an action, which isn't something I want in my RPGs.  This appears to also be the case with Doom in Conan.

QuoteThe primary reason we're not doing an adaptation (or at least planning one at this time) is that they're hugely resource-intensive and are historically poor sellers.

If you think of the core game as a road, system adaptations are (at best) a detour or a dead-end. They aren't supported by later materials, and it's time and production work that could be better spent on support for the core game line.

Speaking as the guy who wrote the BRP book, while a part of me would love to see a dedicated BRP Conan book, I'd rather get something new for the planned 2d20 line, like one of the many books on my wish-list that may not happen.

Well, its your baby...

However for what its worth, from a CR and sales perspective, it sure seems like Modiphius is shooting itself in the foot.

The anger and dissatisfaction with the system expressed in this thread does not appear to be an isolated phenomenon. In a rough count, there are 17 people who are vocally upset at the momentum/doom mechanics in this thread.  There are similar and even longer threads on the purple site and en-world (hope its ok to mention them here).  Its quite clear from CRKrueger's post of Nathan's counter arguments that people were upset on Modiphius' home forum as well.  From what I hear, even people on the REH site were not happy (though the site is down).  etc.

Ideological divisions are exacerbated, I think, by a love of REH and Conan.  Traditional style roleplayers want a Conan game too, preferably with Brom art, Shanks' approval, and your writing.  Traditional style GMs who are Howard fans may never shut up about what seems to us a wasted opportunity that we may never get back.  Maybe Modiphius doesn't care: "you can't make everyone happy" (paraphrasing you) or even "power hungry old school GMs need to be reigned in" (paraphrasing Nathan), but I don't think the criticism is going to go away unless it's addressed. Continued rancor can't be good for the long-term viability or the legacy of this game.

Furthermore, I think the experience of WotC and d&d 5 is informative.  I didn't join in the edition wars, I never played 4th edition, and this is this first public forum I bothered to join so a l am less well versed on RPG ideology wars than the veterans here, but it's pretty clear that more people are happier, overall, with the inclusive nature of 5e then the "my way or the highway" nature of 4e. 2d20  as written is never going to be inclusive, but you do have options to include the other side of the community.

When I was in sales management (way back in the day), the rule of thumb was for every customer who was vocally upset there were ten more who you just never heard from - sales lost.  If the internet outcry is any indication then adherence to a hard-core narrative house system at the exclusion of any other option is alienating significant portions of a limited market - and is right now impacting your sales.  Because of this, and the size of the project, I have a hard time understanding the business practice justifications for refusing to throw traditionalist players some scraps from the table. I think we'd be pretty happy with a little side road diverging from the 2d20 highway, and that, I think, would be good business.  It's not like you don't have the talent or the resources, and you might be shocked at the support you receive.

Unless you (Modiphius) are grinding an axe on the stone of systems ideology, how could it hurt to do something, product wise, to include, rather than alienate,  a large and unhappy portion of your customer base?

By the way, I am happy to see that you still have some fondness for BRP :)

Gosh, when you plug it that way, the 2000+ people signed up to the kickstarter pales into insignificance....or not.

Quote from: Jason D;881039There's some disinformation floating around that.

I asked Gareth if he'd be interested in writing a standalone adventure when Far West is complete.

He's not a stretch goal author, and right now the one adventure I asked about is the extent of his involvement.

Thanks Jason. FWIW I think that was all made clear (I tried to post the complete story).

However, GMS is one of the worse things to happen to KS and I am still surprised that his association is sought for products that are seeking KS support. Releasing FW at this point will not heal the years of personal attacks, lies, and other behaviour that GMS his put his backers through IMO. So, whilst I don't think less of Modiphius for trying to be positive about his involvement, I don't want to buy into a product line that he has any association with.

Quote from: Imperator;880829Well, even if I am a die-hard RQ6 fan and thus, that system would be my first choice for a Conan game, I have to say that Jason D has made a great job of selling the game, and I'm checking the quickstart. Maybe it will be for me, maybe it won't, but such a professional attitude does a lot to convince me that a game is worth checking it out.
...

I agree. I'll check out the quick start PDF and (should the opportunity arise) use the scenario to see how the game plays in practice.

Often games play better than they read. I know that I initially was suspicious of combat special effects in RQ6, as they seemed overly complicated and 'fiddly' in nature. But they turned out to be one of my favourite game mechanics of all time!

So I'll try to keep an open mind with respect to 2d20, even though on paper it doesn't seem like my thing.

And I'm a big fan of The Laundry RPG, so I'm willing to give Jason Durall the benefit of the doubt here.

QuoteGosh, when you plug it that way, the 2000+ people signed up to the kickstarter pales into insignificance....or not.

I said and meant nothing of the kind.  

Realistically, I realize my "plug" is more like a "prayer."  The logic seems impeccable to me, but  of course, I might not know all of the variables.

Quote from: Omega;881083No. The system as described does sound like hobbling the DM. It is also hobbling the players as it sets up a "The GM is the adversary" mindset on both and Jesus Christ I am sick of having to wean players off this idea that the GM is the enemy!

At a guess at least one of the designers then must have had a killer DM or close enough to instill such a view in them that they set out to protect others from falling victim too.

The weird thing is that seems the intent. But then they create a system that very firmly pushes the GM into the role of enemy? Very much "Me against You" rather than "We are all in this together."

That isnt to say the system is bad though. But it feels more like something for a board game. Not an RPG.

I agree with this.

Anecdote time!

So I picked up the FATE Atomic Robo game, which looked a lot of fun, and I enjoyed what little of Robo I've seen so far.  Then I started reading the book.

Inside the book, it uses examples with the various characters.  An engineer for game mechanic explanations, Robo himself for PC interaction and another for the GM.  And in every instance that the GM character shows up, the artist has him look annoyed at whatever success Robo (and a few other characters) have, and look gleeful whenever something bad happens to Robo.

The art sets up an antagonistic relationship.  This to me is bad.  I can't see how anyone can see it as a good thing.  If you want to teach new GMs how to run a game, it's possibly the best way to create an entire generation of dick GMs.  Especially in games that don't have a hobble in the form of FATE points.

Well, I'm not exactly a big supporter of the system, but, to be fair, I'm not sure you're looking at the adversarial relationship the right way.

Remember, yeah, you are roleplaying your characters, and the GM is roleplaying the world, but that is not the whole of the experience.  That is merely the method by which you both are collaboratively creating Conan stories.

If the point is creating a Conan story, then Conan sometimes gets crucified and good queen Taramis becomes a sex slave in her own dungeons.  Sometimes Conan gets dealt a mortal wound by a Mythos creature saved only by the Golden Wine of Xuthal.  Sometimes Belit dies.

It's not adversarial in the same sense that a traditional roleplaying game would be under the same circumstances.  For all the talk of ignoring the Doom pool and just grabbing dice, the Doom pool IS the game, at least the Storytelling part.  When you choose to add to the Doom Pool, you are telling the GM "Kick it up a notch."  that is your consent for him to spend them making your character's life dramatic, tragic, whatever.

The Doom Pool is there to push you to the limit, but remember, the GM is only as deadly as you are awesome.  Don't spend the Doom, he can't spend them either.  Also you have Fortune, the NPCs do not, Doom can be used instead but at a much higher exchange rate.

Now, in a roleplaying game, we're used to the GM being an impartial arbiter.  Sure, he roleplays the bad guys, and he does have complete knowledge and power, but a good GM plays it straight, plays by the rules.  You knew there was a chance to run into giants in this mountain pass and you rolled a 99 on the encounter table, what's the GM supposed to do?  You guys ignored the raving madman on the corner and went too deep into the sewers of Middenheim without the guide everyone told you to hire and now you're surrounded by Skaven, not the GM's doing.

In this game, being surrounded by Picts might very well be the GM's doing, or at least the fact that some of them are Elite warriors, and he's not being impartial, he's doing it to make your life difficult...but he's not.  He's doing it to make your character's life difficult and you are not your character, not in the same way, you're both storyteller and character, author and actor.  In additional to the roles of player and GM, there's an overarching meta-layer, you're both roleplaying Howard.  He's the Howard that comes up with the devilish plots, and you're the Howard that figures out how Conan is going to win this time.

This is not what I want from a roleplaying game, but it isn't trying to be.  Looking at it like we would look at a traditional RPG isn't judging the game for what it is.  Monolith is putting out a Conan boardgame, Modiphius is putting out a Conan storytelling game.  The problem is, storytelling games do overlap with roleplaying games, so there won't be a license for a Conan traditional roleplaying game in addition to the narrative one.

I plan on playing the Monolith boardgame if it's any good (although I KS'd for the minis for roleplaying) and I plan on trying the Modiphius Quickstart and playing it for what it is, and see if it is fun.  Then when I want to delve into a living, breathing Hyboria with my players, we'll break out RQ6/Mythras.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881140Well...

This whole post is, in my reckoning, accurate, insightful, logical, and fair. Kudos.

CRKrueger, great post.

And the game reminds me more and more of Marvel Heroic, even if a bit more on the traditional side. I think I'll end up getting it eventually.

QuoteI plan on playing the Monolith boardgame if it's any good

Does any one know when  this will be released to the public, and if so, where I can find it?  I missed the KS, and I don't paint any more (eyes are going) but I'd still like to pick it up.

..err, is there a better place to ask?

Quote from: Madprofessor;881154Does any one know when  this will be released to the public, and if so, where I can find it?  I missed the KS, and I don't paint any more (eyes are going) but I'd still like to pick it up.

..err, is there a better place to ask?

It is released to KS backers in June at current estimates, so general release may be 6-12 months thereafter.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881035When's the next CA con?

KublaCon in May. It's the biggest Bay Area con. Absolutely worth attending.
http://www.kublacon.com/

Quote from: Stainless;881108Gosh, when you plug it that way, the 2000+ people signed up to the kickstarter pales into insignificance....or not.

And that's all that really matters.

Plus, while system is very important, its nowhere near as important as "I wanna play Conan with my friends who love Conan" which trumps all other concerns for the vast majority of gamers - at least short term.

That aspect is even tantalizing me.

Quote from: Sytthas;881152This whole post is, in my reckoning, accurate, insightful, logical, and fair. Kudos.

Agree.

Spinach and Walker, like me you don't find the system a selling point, but there's a few things I'm personally considering.

• They do have some real Howard scholars on board to run things by, and those guys have access to stuff that isn't pastiche, but is still new, namely a ton of letters Howard wrote to Lovecraft and others.  
• For the people who liked Vincent Darlage's work, he's focusing on the Black Kingdoms, an area he didn't get to during his work with Mongoose, so it won't be a Vincent rehash, but new Vincent.
• Hyperborea won't be the version that is in nearly all pastiche, namely Finland with Louhi and Witchmen, but what Howard actually intended.
• Sure anything they create will be fanfic, but it will be fanfic with a critical eye to being something that you could infer from Howards writings.  Even total asspulls will be well-researched asspulls.
• Even if they're not doing a detailed worldbook approach, but more of a gazetteer approach to Hyboria, they are focusing on adventures.  The side effect of the zoning system is that it practically requires maps, and it looks like Modiphius is trying to synergize with the release of Monolith's game for everyone to have a lot of Conan minis around looking for alternate uses.  The result is, what they will be publishing is adventures, with area maps, and NPCs.  Mineable material.

I should have been a stupid-level backer because I'm such a Conan fanatic and I'm not going to be, solely because of the system and I don't think I'm alone.  I am thinking of maybe doing the "all pdf" level though, just to have information to mine, because with the team they have, I'm sure they'll put out something interesting to me, and with Jason running herd on the writers, I'm sure the adventures will be useful and fun in any system.

Thanks CRK. I have weighed the decision pretty heavily TBH. I was in for the all PDF and considering all Print if they reached a certain level of books.

But, despite being a Conan freak, I have withdrawn my pledge altogether now. I don't see myself using the system, despite being someone that is OK with narrative mechanics. If Momentum and Doom were narrative resources without the competitive element, I would have thought them to be great.

Settingwise, I already have Road of Kings (and the Conan books obviously) as a consolidated sourcebook which will be easier to use with the system of my choice than a series of smaller books with more crunch per book in them.

When combined with the fact that there are other RPGs I am much more likely to play competing for my $ and the whiff of GMS as a possible (albeit minor) contributor, I am comfortable with my decision.

I wish Modiphius all the best though. They seem like a great company and I love Mutant Year Zero. The artists and scholars they have lined up is superb.

I'm not going to back the KS (because I laid out my reasons) but once it's available, I'll probably going to be waffling over getting this for a long time...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881236I'm not going to back the KS (because I laid out my reasons) but once it's available, I'll probably going to be waffling over getting this for a long time...

The game books might make a nice information resource.

Quote from: Nexus;881239The game books might make a nice information resource.

Thing is, I'm having the same issue with this Atomic Robo game.  It's got some neat stuff, but the system makes my eyes bleed at just how bad it is for Role Playing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881241Thing is, I'm having the same issue with this Atomic Robo game.  It's got some neat stuff, but the system makes my eyes bleed at just how bad it is for Role Playing.

Could be you're just drawn to the source material? Maybe consider the books entertainment. More than a few people read RPG materials for pleasure.

Atomic Robo? That's a FATE driven game isn't it?

Quote from: CRKrueger;881140Well, I'm not exactly a big supporter of the system, but, to be fair, I'm not sure you're looking at the adversarial relationship the right way.

This is not what I want from a roleplaying game, but it isn't trying to be.  

1: Its more that the mechanics will herd things in that direction. The players want to hoard their dice so the DM can get any to use against them and the DM wants to hoard his so they cant. That is an adversarial mechanic right out the gate. Or the players blow off alot of dice to be really heroic. And then the GM TPKs them with all the dice he accumulated.

2: Exactly. Its a different approach. A rather neet idea really. It is not like some narrativist or story games that all but flat out state that the DM is the enemy and must be depowered at all costs.

Quote from: Nexus;881248Could be you're just drawn to the source material? Maybe consider the books entertainment. More than a few people read RPG materials for pleasure.

Atomic Robo? That's a FATE driven game isn't it?

Yes, it is.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881236I'm not going to back the KS (because I laid out my reasons) but once it's available, I'll probably going to be waffling over getting this for a long time...

I think the system can be beaten into a form that more suitable for a traditionally run RPG campaign. The key is to look at Momentum as a stunt point pool. Mechanically Momentum is a fancy version of "Degree of Success". Like stunt points from the AGE RPG system it can be spent on a shopping list of effects. The trick will be to get rid of the various stuff that require you give Doom to the referee.

Some will be easy and some won't. For example reactions (out of turn actions) give Doom to the referee. So if you parry you give a point of doom. Perhaps change the Momentum rule so that you can save Momentum to the BEGINNING of your next turn. So you can keep some Momentum around to spend on reactions.

Not sure about abilities and effect that can only be activated by giving Doom.

QuoteOriginally posted by CRKrueger
In this game, being surrounded by Picts might very well be the GM's doing, or at least the fact that some of them are Elite warriors, and he's not being impartial, he's doing it to make your life difficult...but he's not. He's doing it to make your character's life difficult and you are not your character, not in the same way, you're both storyteller and character, author and actor. In additional to the roles of player and GM, there's an overarching meta-layer, you're both roleplaying Howard. He's the Howard that comes up with the devilish plots, and you're the Howard that figures out how Conan is going to win this time.

You know, I think I could really enjoy the "lets all be Robert E Howard and tell a story together" aspect of this *if* I was working with the right group of players.  I could even enjoy the minigame that enforces it - if I was working with the right group of players.  The possibility of finding such a group, or somehow convincing my players to be such a group is keeping me on the fence about backing the project.  Clearly the system is not my preference, but I can see myself enjoying in the right circumstances. I am still undecided.

QuoteThey do have some real Howard scholars on board to run things by, and those guys have access to stuff that isn't pastiche, but is still new, namely a ton of letters Howard wrote to Lovecraft and others.

Yeah, Jeff Shanks has done a lot for REHs legacy, and to demonstrate Howard's significance and value in American literature.  Expounding the virtues of a pulp author, especially one who's primary creation has turned comic book hero, is flirting with academic suicide so I certainly appreciate Jeff's courage and conviction. I'm not sure if that is good reason to buy the game or not, but at least we know the game will stay pretty true to the source - no unicorns or flying saucers.

QuoteOriginally posted by estar
I think the system can be beaten into a form that more suitable for a traditionally run RPG campaign.

Yeah, we were discussing this reforging  the system into tradition style up-thread but that conversation died off.  I think its doable, but I am not sure its worth the effort. Just using the quickstart, here are the obvious things that would need modification that we discussed:

A) Momentum could be transformed into a "degree of success mechanic," as you suggested, but this causes some problems with basic actions like parrying and damage that would need to be addressed.
B) Doom has to go away entirely.  All kinds of stuff is dependent on doom, probably including scenario material, NPC powers, etc. Possibly this could be roughly adducted by a careful and fair GM. But it is difficult to say without seeing the full rules.
C) For me at least, Zones would need to be replaced with actual distance.  Easy enough.
D) It would need an initiative system. Easy peasy.
E) I don't really know how dependent sorcery is on doom/momentum so that could be an issue.
F) For me the idea of fortune points is okay.  It's pretty common place these days, but I feel they need to be toned down to make the game a little less cinematic.

Just a quick note that #rpgnet (the IRC chatroom, not the website) will be hosting Jason and Chris Lites for a Q&A about Conan tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. CST.

To join: http://tinyurl.com/rpgnetchat

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881347Yes, it is.

That's a system I really do not "get" on almost any level so its tough for me to make any meaningful comments about it.

Jesus Wept.  On top of everything else, Mook Rules.

What am I, Job?

Quote from: CRKrueger;881694Jesus Wept.  On top of everything else, Mook Rules.

What am I, Job?

The designers. They feast upon your tears as if mana. :worship:

Quote from: CRKrueger;881694Jesus Wept.  On top of everything else, Mook Rules.

What am I, Job?

Out of curiosity, how would you handle "few vs. many" fights without some sort of minion system, such as the one that's been used in games like James Bond 007, Feng Shui, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?

Quote from: CRKrueger;881694On top of everything else, Mook Rules.

I can't say I mind mook rules in general. Is there anything about these mook rules in particular that you dislike?

@JasonD  

How easy are npcs and enemies to stat on the fly?

Quote from: 3rik;881705I can't say I mind mook rules in general. Is there anything about these mook rules in particular that you dislike?

The very concept offends me. :D  Ok, not really, but what do you mean when you mean a "Mook"?  Either...
1. Someone who is not as skilled as the PCs
2. Someone who isn't important in the scheme of things.  Cannon Fodder.  Dramatically speaking, a lesser form of being.

If they are lower skilled, you use the existing rules and simply make them not as good.  There's no need for "Main characters and Big Bad Evil guys" work this way, "Lieutenants and Right Hand Men work this way", "Minions and lesser forms of life work this way", "Mobs of Minions" work this way.

Quote from: Jason D;881704Out of curiosity, how would you handle "few vs. many" fights without some sort of minion system, such as the one that's been used in games like James Bond 007, Feng Shui, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?

Pick any firefight currently happening in the Middle East.  Who are the minions?  Who are the normals? Who are the elites?  You could argue the Tier 1 operators are Elites, but a 7.62 to the brainpan kills them just as quick as it does the Army private fresh out of boot.

If someone's better, make them better.  If someone's worse, make them worse.  To be honest the whole Mook/Minion thing doesn't make for rousing adventure, it makes for useless, cheap victories without merit.  Our 4 PCs with a total of 20 wounds, killed 5 Picts with a total of 5 wounds. Wow, aren't we awesome?  Not really, no.  You could curbstomp them and the three groups after them with your eyes closed.

Conan wins because he's strong, smart, and from a race of barbarians whose life makes them harder then any other race in the Hyborian world.  His natural stats should reflect that, not have a * over his head because the rules work differently for him.

You survive being outnumbered by being better than the opposition, being better equipped, using better tactics, outmaneuvering to reduce the numbers they can throw at you at once, and succeeding when you really need to.

In the specific case of the Conan Quickstart, I was fairly impressed at how dangerous the adventure was, and how you'd really have to play well and smart to survive the night the Picts took back Conajohara...and then I realized all those Picts are one wound wonders, except the elites, who have two to each and every PCs 5.

Mook rules are just a personal pet peeve to me.  It turns RPGs into first person shooters.  Zero verisimilitude.  It's like Script Immunity.  Bleah.  Write a short story about your character for god's sake if you need to feel that powerful.  There's literally no RPG mechanic I like less than Mook Rules.  Which I guess is why I'm full on ranting. :D

But, it doesn't matter.  Simply make each Mook an actual human and not a literary speedbump and then you have adventures worth telling stories about.

BTW, are Hit Dice supposed to be some form of Mook Rule?  Is that where the "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" part came from?  That's a pretty big stretch.

Mook rules for a game based on larger than life heroics.  Um.  Yeah, CRKrueger, I'm sorry, but no.  Conan was never about 'real life', he's slain several men by himself in fights wearing nothing but a loin cloth.

And here's the thing, I've run several games that have variations on the Mook rules, and if the players aren't careful, fiv no named guys can still kill them dead, dead, dead.  Had it happen.

Think of it this way:  A violent 4 year old against Bruce Lee doesn't stand a chance, but a hundred of them will still make his life miserable.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881772Mook rules for a game based on larger than life heroics.  Um.  Yeah, CRKrueger, I'm sorry, but no.  Conan was never about 'real life', he's slain several men by himself in fights wearing nothing but a loin cloth.

And here's the thing, I've run several games that have variations on the Mook rules, and if the players aren't careful, fiv no named guys can still kill them dead, dead, dead.  Had it happen.

Think of it this way:  A violent 4 year old against Bruce Lee doesn't stand a chance, but a hundred of them will still make his life miserable.

Conan or Bruce Lee could probably kill several men barehanded, they're not the only ones.  Hell, go and grab 5 guys from a Starbucks and send them into a deathmatch with Dwayne Johnson, my money's on Johnson.  

Size, strength, speed and skill.  In RPGs, these things have numbers and stats, so...why not use them?  What do Mook rules ever get you that normal stats don't?

Quote from: CRKrueger;881780Size, strength, speed and skill.  In RPGs, these things have numbers and stats, so...why not use them?  What do Mook rules ever get you that normal stats don't?

It's a pacing thing when done properly. Simulating large combats without an exponential increase in time and complexity in doing so.

In theory.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881772Mook rules for a game based on larger than life heroics.  Um.  Yeah, CRKrueger, I'm sorry, but no.  Conan was never about 'real life', he's slain several men by himself in fights wearing nothing but a loin cloth.

And here's the thing, I've run several games that have variations on the Mook rules, and if the players aren't careful, fiv no named guys can still kill them dead, dead, dead.  Had it happen.

Yeah, even in Exalted if you're not built to fight them a Battle group can seriously wreck your shit.

QuoteThink of it this way:  A violent 4 year old against Bruce Lee doesn't stand a chance, but a hundred of them will still make his life miserable.

Its kind if like "Swarm" rules. One wasp isn't that dangerous but a few hundred...

Mostly "Mook" rules are a mechanical short hand to allow for large battles to take place in a reasonable amount of time without driving the GM insane controlling and tracking several even dozens of opponents. And not necessarily to present "easy" targets. In some games Mooks or more accurately Mobs and Units are more dangerous than individual characters.

Its a simplification and abstraction that makes things easier to handle like summarizing all the varied possibilities of injury and recovery into Hit Points or Wound Levels.

But in genres where heroes regularly quash dozens of lesser opponents they help also immensely both in generating the right tone and just running the battles.

Frankly, that's one failing of my favorite system. It doesn't really have Mook rules (you can fake them easily enough). When Capt America is wading through 25  Hydra thugs I really don't want to run that as a "by the books" combat but it could have repercussions (if nothing else how long it takes) so I don't want to totally gloss it over. "Mook" rules help there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768The very concept offends me. :D

Does it trigger you:D?

It's a fair question. "Mook Rules" is another piece of rpg jargon that can mean several different things.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881780Size, strength, speed and skill.  In RPGs, these things have numbers and stats, so...why not use them?  What do Mook rules ever get you that normal stats don't?

Expediency.  A mook, minion, goon, goombah, schmuck whatever you called them, they are not meant to be a major threat to a hero.  Can they get lucky and mess one up?  Yes.  I had one guy, some random mugger with a knife, almost murder the Batman analog in a game.

Quote from: Nexus;881796Frankly, that's one failing of my favorite system. It doesn't really have Mook rules (you can fake them easily enough). When Capt America is wading through 25  Hydra thugs I really don't want to run that as a "by the books" combat but it could have repercussions (if nothing else how long it takes) so I don't want to totally gloss it over. "Mook" rules help there.

Yeah, after being the top dog for Superhero games for at least what, two decades now, you'd think that the latest edition of HERO would introduce the main feature of superheroes when facing monolithic and evil organizations.

And the main reason I am FOR Mook Rules is because I mostly play superhero games, D&D and M&M 3e.

Hey everyone sorry I've been absent, I didn't realise there was such a long thread here :-). I thought I'd step in and take some of the heat!

Quote from: Necrozius;879793I was interested at first, but the reliance on extra books for different regions... I can't afford all that stuff.

I'm also not all that interested in new rules. A system-agnostic setting book would indeed have been awesome.

You get all the regions in the core book but the region books expand on that, providing whole Lifepaths for just e.g. Thief related 'careers', Pirate 'careers' etc.

Quote from: Omega;879805Was going to say the same.

Why exactly do we need Conan the RPG number, what is it now?, 6? 7? 8?

TSR Conan, D&D Conan, d20 Conan, wasnt there a Gurps Conan?, another d20 Conan, At least three "Hyborian Age" RPGs. and those are just the ones I can think of.

And that isnt even including parodies like mine and at least one other from way back.

Well I guess why do we need D&D5, rules and companies change.

Quote from: Spinachcat;879884I would be interested in a setting book that is 100% REH.
But considering the Conan line being discussed, I am smelling fan fic to pad pages.
Heck, I'd be interested in a setting book that is 100% Marvel Conan. That would actually be really fun too.
Sad but true.

At the moment there's no fan fic, anything 'fictional' is being written under the guidance of the scholars to ensure it is about as close as it could be to what REH might have written.

Quote from: Akrasia;879895As an aside: it's not clear to me why everything REH wrote is not now public domain.  I don't understand the licensing issue here at all.
Also, is this issue unique to Conan?  So if I wanted to write up a RQ6 or Crypts & Things supplement based on Kull, would there be any legal issue?  (How could there be?)

The Conan Properties estate manages the estate. They make sure stupid publishers around the world don't try to force feed you pastiche versions of conan, they manage the licensing so that you actually see a lot more Conan stuff that you might have done otherwise. The previous owner did their best to stop publishers from getting original Conan stories published. They actively seek out companies to publish conan in different languages and work hard so a new generation of fans are discovering Conan in many new ways. This doesn't usually happen if someone isn't working hard on it. It's why many properties die away or get diluted in pastiche hell.

Quote from: Akrasia;879897I mean, what the hell is this?
REH died in 1936. How can his works not be public domain now?

Public Domain does not work the same the world over - the laws are different between the UK and USA. Something PD in US is not necessarily public domain in the UK. Many people get confused over this.

Quote from: Arminius;879905I doubt any of us really knows better than what you can find here under copyright: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Robert_Ervin_Howard

Note the words "called into question". It's probably like "Happy Birthday to You"--nobody's bothered to scrape up the cash to publish something that will provoke a lawsuit and then mount a defense in court.

Plenty have including massive global publishers. The reason you're seeing so much great and authentic Conan stuff is because someone is actually managing it.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880615Agreed!

However, it does seem that there are a lot of people at least on this site who are saying  that "2d20 is not my cup of tea." Maybe that's just the crowd that hangs out here, maybe they're just vocal, I don't know, but it seems like there is a substantial population who dislikes the system. I am hoping that Modiphius will do something product-wize to include or induce these players and GMs like a set of optional rules for more traditional play styles, or branching out to other systems.  Its' probably wishful thinking, but it would sure be a lot easier on guys like Jason who have to double as PR reps.  I also think it would be better for the longevity of the game perhaps preventing the same fate as d20 Conan.

As there are about many other systems such as Fate, Savage Worlds, etc. We also have 5000 people across the Mutant Chronicles and Infinity RPG's who are enjoying the games. People who don't like something tend to be far more vocal than those who do. We were never going to please everyone and new systems tend to attract the most vocal critics. I remember defending my 'version' of Fate when I wrote Starblazer Adventures. Taking the rather quirky ('story gamer arrgggggh' language of Spirit of the Century and changing it to what it really was - simple rpg mechanics language. I still remember reading Spirit of the Century like 3 times to grok the mechanics and it wasn't until I played a game that I finally got it. I know those types of games are not for everyone - but actually I realised it was a very basic RPG System with silly names for things (that annoyed a lot of people) and then some narrative stuff on top. I think that's something we'll have with 2d20.

It's not really anything new - just existing mechanics we've pulled together in to one system. In fact it was myself and Michal E Cross and Benn Beaton's ideas for the 2d20 system and damage dice. Jay Little came in an polished it up - made the system actually work and filed off the raw edges.

I'll repeat Jason's comments that once people actually try it, not read, not roll dice themselves but actually run it around a table with people that want to give it a go they usually are won over - not always I know and i know we're never going to convince everyone.

What I am sure is that I think this version of Conan will let you do the kind of stuff Conan does in the stories, far better than most previous versions.

Now as to the discussion of why not producing a 5th edition, savage worlds or d20 version, haha event a fate version (not that would just drive some people spare!). Well there are many reasons - the experience of doing Achtung! Cthulhu dual statted made us realise it was suited to that project but also was a massive drain on resources so we knew we couldn't support a second version beyond a core book. Then why not do a core book? That's a massively expensive goal - rewriting the system is at least 50-60% of the book plus layout and then expensive printing in hardback (which is our commitment with the range. What that then does is split sales. So now we can't get the big print run on either core book and keep the cost down. That's another book as Jason suggested that wouldn't get funded that adds to the value for the all the backers.

2d20 is a massive project for us - it's being re-designed for each game we do so that is sits right with what we're creating - John Carter for example is getting a much stripped down version that is very elegant and feels like science romance. There are 3 or 4 other 2d20 RPG's being announced this year (one of which being another big license) and others by different publishers we know who want to use the system. We're going to be announcing a third party deal soon that's quite attractive. One of our big goals is to help train GM's, to provide them with the tools, training and backup to be amazing GM's, as that will help us grow our industry as well as our own games. I know we'll face the same opposition to new systems as when Fate and Savage Worlds emerged and they're now firmly established systems with huge fanbases.

The funny thing I've seen is people referring to it as being to narrative, but also too crunchy, so there's definitely some confusion and perhaps that's the description in the Quickstart. We're sending out a new version with a changelog tomorrow that helps with some issues but I know we'll be able to massively improve on how the game is explained to people. Great combat examples, graphical layouts that take you through the rules (perhaps with awesome art), videos and more. It's all in the works.

What I will promise is we'll discuss with the team what options we have to make the system in some way friendlier to those who are opposed to certain aspects. There has been talk of a system toolkit which proposes ways of changing some elements of the system or how to hack it easily. So maybe something like that is a first step in the direction.

Right time to hit the sack it's late in ol 'Blighty!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881817Expediency.  A mook, minion, goon, goombah, schmuck whatever you called them, they are not meant to be a major threat to a hero.  Can they get lucky and mess one up?  Yes.  I had one guy, some random mugger with a knife, almost murder the Batman analog in a game.



Yeah, after being the top dog for Superhero games for at least what, two decades now, you'd think that the latest edition of HERO would introduce the main feature of superheroes when facing monolithic and evil organizations.

And the main reason I am FOR Mook Rules is because I mostly play superhero games, D&D and M&M 3e.

In fairness, there are some suggestions under "Speeding up Combat" that are essentially Mob/Thug rules in a few books but they're not formalized.

Once you step into the world of the Superhero, you're in a place frequently where genre conventions are large and in charge, and superheros usually are some form of more powerful being and are not strictly human.

When Mook rules are in place in human vs. human or at least mortal vs. mortal conflict, there's absolutely zero connection to the setting, unless you posit that "PC Level Beings", Wildcards or whatever, are those chosen by higher powers to be pawns in their doings and so are effectively some form of superhero.  

You could even accuse Conan of being that if you go with some kind of Kull-Conan-Cormac reincarnated eternal champion like character.  Random Hyborian PC group X doesn't cut it.

For a non-supers game, that's an awful lot of verisimilitude you're giving up for expediency.

For me, Mook or Mob rules don't reduce my verisimilitude at all. It's strictly a mechanical convenience to more expediently resolve certain actions, most games have allot of them. it doesn't damage my immersion  or suspension of disbelief that gm might roll 5 times or even 1 for 40 person unit instead of 40 times. It bothers me less than than the idea that "higher level" characters have a greater chance of surviving some of the same things even there isn't really an "in setting physical difference that makes them more durable.
Their hit points are just an abstraction of various factors but its abstraction that's not my cuppa.

If Mobs are weaker and it fits the setting/genre that heroes, villains, Titled characters or whatever can run roughshod over their lessers en mass. I'm okay with that as genre emulation. A setting or game based on 80s action movies, for instance.

If mobs are stronger than individual characters and it fits the setting genre (gritty "realism" perhaps) then it works for as the presence of Mob motivates the choice to run or find some others means to deal with it for those that make such choices based more on "game" level information.

Mook rules are usually optional or easy to ignore if you want. I'd guess this Conan game will be similar. What games have Mob/Mook/Thug rules hardwired in where if they're not your thing you can't write up the, say, squad of troops and run them normally?

MHRP/Cortex seems to come closest to that. The more relevant question is will they be optional/GM discretion in the this Conan game?

Quote from: Nexus;881860For me, Mook or Mob rules don't reduce my verisimilitude at all. It's strictly a mechanical convenience to more expediently resolve certain actions, most games have allot of them. it doesn't damage my immersion  or suspension of disbelief that gm might roll 5 times or even 1 for 40 person unit instead of 40 times. It bothers me less than than the idea that "higher level" characters have a greater chance of surviving some of the same things even there isn't really an "in setting physical difference that makes them more durable.
Their hit points are just an abstraction of various factors but its abstraction that's not my cuppa.

I haven't really played Level/Hit Point games for quite a while now, so choosing to not deal with all those abstractions anymore, why would I choose to replace them with others?

Quote from: Nexus;881860If Mobs are weaker and it fits the setting/genre that heroes, villains, Titled characters or whatever can run roughshod over their lessers en mass. I'm okay with that as genre emulation. A setting or game based on 80s action movies, for instance.

Roleplaying in literary genres isn't something I do outside of oneshots, either.

Quote from: Nexus;881860If mobs are stronger than individual characters and it fits the setting genre (gritty "realism" perhaps) then it works for as the presence of Mob motivates the choice to run or find some others means to deal with it for those that make such choices based more on "game" level information.

Aside from speed and speed alone, there's not a single threat or role held by mobs that wouldn't be done better by actual NPCs (unless it's something like a literal swarm of bees or piranhas or something.)

Quote from: Nexus;881860Mook rules are usually optional or easy to ignore if you want. I'd guess this Conan game will be similar. What games have Mob/Mook/Thug rules hardwired in where if they're not your thing you can't write up the, say, squad of troops and run them normally?

Well, as I said upthread...

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768But, it doesn't matter.  Simply make each Mook an actual human and not a literary speedbump and then you have adventures worth telling stories about.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881866I haven't really played Level/Hit Point games for quite a while now, so choosing to not deal with all those abstractions anymore, why would I choose to replace them with others?

Roleplaying in literary genres isn't something I do outside of oneshots, either.

Aside from speed and speed alone, there's not a single threat or role held by mobs that wouldn't be done better by actual NPCs (unless it's something like a literal swarm of bees or piranhas or something.)

Well, as I said upthread...

They are actual humans. They're just represented differently mechanically. From my perspective I'm not sure what you mean by "perform the role better" or "actual NPC" In setting, Mobs are exactly the same as anyone else or more as they're defined. They just use somewhat different mechanics. I feel that for representing large numbers of attackers, yeah, mob rules do work better than using the game's standard combatant rule, faster, less work intensive and produces results that are more inline with the setting. For me those are significant pluses.

Unless the gm is going to make individual, slightly different character sheets for every guard in, say a 20 person unit (and I imagine there are some that do) there is some level of abstraction and simplification going on. Everyone in a unit isn't a xerox of the person next to them. It all about what you're comfortable with.

But I'm not trying to convince or convert you. As I said I understand that some people don't enjoy those sorts of rules. I'm explaining my opinion and perspective.

That and I am curious if the "Mook rules" in this Conan game will be rules for lesser foes, mob rules, a combination and if they're hardwired in and if they are how that works.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881821Public Domain does not work the same the world over - the laws are different between the UK and USA. Something PD in US is not necessarily public domain in the UK. Many people get confused over this.

Except that the supposed owners ARE using the American version of it.  And they are using lawyers to bludgeon everyone else into submission.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881908Except that the supposed owners ARE using the American version of it.  And they are using lawyers to bludgeon everyone else into submission.

Pretty much why I'm skipping this Conan RPG.  It should all be in PD in the U.S. by now, and this sort of "claim-jumping" gives me a sour taste.

Quote from: DMK;881911Pretty much why I'm skipping this Conan RPG.  It should all be in PD in the U.S. by now, and this sort of "claim-jumping" gives me a sour taste.

Again, according to the sources of information I was able to get on the internet about Copyright laws, but I am not a lawyer, nor was I able to find anything dealing with the Howard estate (but that might have been my word search incompetence), it should have become Public Domain in 1963-64, based on his death in 1936.

Also, in UK, because they have a 70 year copyright ownership, then it would have been released, 10 years ago in 2006.  BUT because Paradox has more money, they CAN illegally hold on to Conan of Cimmeria, by using the U.S. Copyright Revision of 1976.  Despite that it became public domain 8-9 years before that revision.

Unless of course, there's been some legal grandfathering that I've not been able to dig up.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768If they are lower skilled, you use the existing rules and simply make them not as good.  There's no need for "Main characters and Big Bad Evil guys" work this way, "Lieutenants and Right Hand Men work this way", "Minions and lesser forms of life work this way", "Mobs of Minions" work this way.

That's highly system-dependent.  In Mythras (the game formerly known as RuneQuest 6), for example, if a Minion from the mob makes a successful attack roll against you and you don't successfully parry, he gets to choose a Special Effect to inflict along with his damage, such as Choose Location (to hit an unarmored area), Disarm, or Trip Opponent.  However, his chance to hit is completely independent of your skill and even attempting to parry costs you an Action Point, which you get 2-3 of per turn.

Because of this, five Picts will slice up Conan (even if it's Chainmail Conan instead of Fur Loincloth Conan) nearly as easily as they would Cyrus McCivvie with no combat training whatsoever, unless Conan parries.  But the Picts have 10 AP between them, while Conan has only 3 AP to parry with.  Assuming the Picts have better than a 30% chance to hit, he can't parry all their attacks even if he foregoes offense and spends all his AP parrying... so he's still screwed.  Numbers kill.

So Mythras has optional rules for "Rabble", which are essentially mook rules and stipulate (among other things) that they may not cause Special Effects.  If the Picts are Rabble, Chainmail Conan can now take their attacks on his armor and get on with the business of being Conan and eviscerating them without getting tripped or disarmed every round.

The other way of making Conan able to deal with five Picts at once would be to jack up his stats so that he also has 10 AP, but that means a DEX+INT in the 109-120 range (1 AP per 12 DEX+INT, rounded up) in a system where human stats are 3-18.  Personally, I prefer allowing the Rabble rule over allowing stats on the order of triple human maximum.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768BTW, are Hit Dice supposed to be some form of Mook Rule?  Is that where the "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" part came from?  That's a pretty big stretch.

My guess is that he was referring to the "fighters get one attack per level against opponents of 1 HD or less" rule.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881821The funny thing I've seen is people referring to it as being to narrative, but also too crunchy, so there's definitely some confusion and perhaps that's the description in the Quickstart.

I don't see a contradiction there.  Although narrative systems are more likely to be rules-light, "narrative" and "crunchy" are not antonyms, or even opposed to each other.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881821What I will promise is we'll discuss with the team what options we have to make the system in some way friendlier to those who are opposed to certain aspects. There has been talk of a system toolkit which proposes ways of changing some elements of the system or how to hack it easily. So maybe something like that is a first step in the direction.

Good to hear it - thanks!

Hi folks here's a combat example we just posted in the latest Kickstarter update:

Conan Combat Example

Participants

Three player characters:

Edric - Grizzled Veteran
Adelstan - Young Knight
Amala - Blade for Hire

NPCs:

2 Elite Pict Warriors
2 mobs of 3 Pict Warriors
Environment

A large hill, with a signal fire on the hilltop (the fire grants the player characters 2 dice of Morale Soak); the north face is rough and difficult to climb (Hindrance, Average D1 Athletics test), while the south face is a clear and easy slope. Around it, a river bank to the north, a dirt road to the west, and woodland to the south and east (the woodland provides 4 dice of Cover Soak). There are currently six points of Doom in the pool, and the player characters have two Fortune each.

The Picts are approaching the player characters on the hilltop in two groups, each consisting of one Elite Pict Warrior and a mob of Pict Warriors. One group have just forded the river and are sneaking in from the river bank. The others are skulking through the woodland to the south. The Picts to the south begin their ambush, seeking to distract the player characters from their kin by the river. The Elite Pict Warrior attempts a Stealth test in a Struggle against the player characters' Observation, with the mob of warriors assisting. Edric takes the lead here, with Adelstan and Amala providing assistance.

The Elite Pict rolls his Stealth test, with a single d20 assisting from the mob behind him; 9 and 12 from the Elite, 8 from the mob's assistance, for 3 successes. As this is a normal Struggle, all tests are Simple D0, so that's three Momentum. The player characters roll in response – 2d20 for Edric, 1d20 each from the others. 5 and 16 for Edric, and 4 each from the other two; four successes, so four Momentum.

The player characters spot the incoming Picts, and set to their grim work. They have one Momentum left over, which gets saved into the group's pool – their keen eyes have given them a slight edge.

First Round

Edric goes to shoot the Elite Pict he can see, and the Pict chooses to try and dodge the hastily-loosed arrow, spending a point from Doom to do this. The Pict is still at the bottom of the hill, at Long range, so the test is Average D1. Edric spends the Momentum in the group's pool for an extra d20, and makes his attack: 2, 3, and 19, for three successes, which means two Momentum. The Elite Pict rolls to dodge, spending another Doom to add a bonus die of his own, but to no avail – 14, 14, and 17, all his dice fail to generate successes. Edric's attack hits home, with two Momentum left to spend. Edric rolls 2, 2, 3, 4, and 6 for damage, scoring 5 damage and ignoring one point of Soak. The Elite Pict's one point of Armour is ignored, and the Pict loses 5 Vigour, and suffers a Wound. There's not much more that Edric can do with his Momentum right now, so he saves it.

The pools are now 2 Momentum, 4 Doom. The Elite Pict in the southern group has 9 Vigour remaining and is Wounded.

Amala steps up next, and shoots into the mob behind the now-wounded Elite Pict. Same range as Edric's shot, and the mob doesn't attempt a defence reaction. She's not buying any extra dice, and rolls a 3 and a 16, scoring the one necessary success, but no Momentum of her own. She rolls 1, 1, 4 and 5 for damage, for a total of three damage – not enough to drop one of the Picts. She grabs the two points of Momentum in the pool, and adds them to her damage roll; five damage is enough to inflict a Wound on the Picts, which fells one of the mob.

The pools are now 0 Momentum, 4 Doom.

Adelstan, somewhat vainglorious and rash, strides down the hill, and calls out a challenge to the Picts. Now on the south face of the hill, he attempts a Threaten attack at the Elite Pict. He's at medium range, increasing the difficulty to Challenging D2. The Pict, defiant even while bleeding, chooses to resist, spending one Doom. Adelstan would buy some extra dice with Momentum, but Amala used it all, but he's reckless and proud, and pays two Doom to get the dice instead, rolling 4d20. He rolls 2, 5, and two 18s, scoring two successes, with no Momentum.

The Elite Pict buys an extra d20, and rolls to resist: 6, 8, and 19. Only one success, but only one needed (he's still rolling at Average D1, because the range penalty only applies to the attacker), so he's got no Momentum either. The Pict has Fortitude 1, which covers his Discipline skill, so he wins the tie, and Adelstan's threat was ineffectual.

The pools are still 0 Momentum, 4 Doom.

The Picts go next. The Picts to the north move in swiftly and quietly, unheeded by the distracted player characters – the Elite Pict, and his mob of followers all rush up the north face using their Standard Actions, but the rough terrain slows them – they're still short of the hilltop.

The remaining two Picts in the mob dash at Adelstan, hacking with their hatchets. Adelstan's blade and shield give him a decent defence, so he chooses to Parry with his Large Shield, ignoring the usual cost because of the Parrying quality on his weapons. Both sides are using Reach 2 weapons, so Guard isn't a factor here. The Picts roll 9 and 11 – two successes, which becomes one Momentum. Adelstan rolls a 1 and a 7, for three successes, which becomes two Momentum, meaning he wins. He has one Momentum remaining after the Struggle, which he saves for the group.

The wounded Elite Pict strides in, jabbing with his Spear. Adelstan goes to defend with his Shield again, paying one Doom (one less than normal for his second Parry), which the Elite Pict uses for an extra d20 immediately – relying on outnumbering to overwhelm the young knight and compensate for his injury. The Elite Pict rolls 7, 8, and 12, for three successes, or one Momentum (because the test is Challenging D2 thanks to his Wound), while Adelstan buys an extra die with Momentum and rolls 1, 4 and 7, scoring three Momentum. He triumphantly knocks the Pict's spear aside, and counter-attacks with his sword with the two remaining Momentum.

It's a difficult attack; the Pict has Guard and a longer weapon, increasing the difficulty to Challenging D2, and it's a Swift Action from Adelstan's Momentum, increasing it further to Daunting D3. It's the Elite Pict's own turn, so he can't attempt a Defence – he must've exposed himself when attacking. With undue enthusiasm, he buys two extra d20s by paying Doom, rolling 6, 7, 8, and 18: three successes, enough to hit. Adelstan rolls 2, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, and 6 with his damage dice, inflicting seven damage, reduced to six by the Elite Pict's meagre Armour, and the Elite Pict is slain.

End of the round, one Elite Pict and one Pict dead, 0 Momentum, 6 Doom.

Round 2

The Elite Pict on the north face pays one Doom to interrupt, and attempts to crest the hill, rolling a 7 and an 11 for two successes on his Average D1 Athletics test. He crests the hill successfully, and puts the Momentum into Doom. Striding into the fray, he charges Amala, thrusting his spear at her. Amala's sword and dagger both have Parrying, so she goes to Parry for free, and she's got shorter weapons, so no change to the difficulty. The Elite Pict spends a point of Doom for an extra d20, and rolls 6, 18, and 18: successful, but no Momentum. Amala spends one of her Fortune points and rolls, 1 (automatically from the Fortune point), 11, and 17, for three successes – two Momentum. She spends one to Withdraw, backing out of the fight with a quick step, and saves the other one.

1 Momentum, 6 Doom.

The rest of the Picts on the north face follow their leader, spending another Doom to interrupt, and attempt to crest the hill as well. They roll 1, 7, and 20, successfully crest the hill, putting two Momentum into Doom, but the 20 means a complication: they're momentarily disorganised, increasing the difficulty of their next test by one. They attack Edric nevertheless, relying on strength of numbers over prowess. Their hatchets and all of Edric's weapons are Reach 2, so Guard doesn't change anything here. Edric parries for free thanks to his sword and shield, and his Deflect talent. The Picts roll 8, 11, and 17 – two successes is enough, but they get no Momentum. Edric rolls 7 and 7, scoring two successes, one of which becomes Momentum so he turns aside their attacks, and banks the other Momentum.

2 Momentum, 8 Doom.

Adelstan, busy in melee with two Picts, attacks, wanting to make quick work of them. He spends a Fortune point and rolls, 1 (from the Fortune point), 9, and 15, for three successes. The Picts, as an unruly mob, don't defend meaningfully, and Adelstan hits with two Momentum. His damage roll is 2, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5 and 6, for a brutal ten damage. The first five inflict a Wound, slaying one of the Picts, leaving five more damage, which slays the second Pict. With a triumphant shout he declares his victory, and moves the Momentum to the group pool.

4 Momentum, 8 Doom.

Edric hammers into the mob, spending a Fortune point and buying two dice with Momentum. He rolls 1 (Fortune point), 2, 5, 10, and 16, scoring six successes, and thus five Momentum. His damage roll is 2, 3, 3, and 6, but he re-rolls one of the 3s with No Mercy, getting another 2 instead; this comes to a total of 5 damage, enough to slay one of the Picts. Using the kill as a distraction, he shoves through the fray (one Momentum to Withdraw), and takes a Swift Action to attack the Elite Pict with his shield (2 more Momentum spent). This is a more difficult attack (Daunting D3, due to enemy's Reach with Guard and the Swift Action), but he's still got two Momentum from his previous attack, so he uses those for extra dice. The Pict tries to dodge this, spending a point of Doom to make the attempt. Edric gets 2, 5, 7, and 13 – five successes in all, and two Momentum. The Pict, confident of dodging this hasty attack, buys only one extra d20 from Doom, and rolls 2, 12, and 17... only two successes, with only one Momentum, losing the Struggle. Edric has one Momentum left over, and rolls his damage, for a 5 and a 6. Only two damage, but they both trigger the Knockdown quality on the shield, causing the Pict to stumble backwards.

Edric deposits his last Momentum into the group pool.

3 Momentum, 6 Doom.

Amala darts back in towards the now-vulnerable Elite Pict, her dagger bared. She pauses for a moment, sizing up the downed foe with the Exploit action, emptying the Momentum pool to bolster her chances, rolling 5, 6, 6, 18, and 19 – three successes, and thus two Momentum. She buys extra damage dice with those Momentum, which come with two extra damage dice as it's an Exploit action, and uses her last Fortune point for an extra Standard Action.

With this, she attacks: the Pict has no Guard, and clutches a spear and hatchet in his hands. Choosing to use the Hatchet to defend himself, the Pict has a Reach of 2, and chooses to try and dodge this, paying a point of Doom, and three more for bonus dice. As Amala's dagger has Reach 1, she gets an extra d20 for this attack, bringing her total to 5d20. She rolls 2, 3, 7, 7, and 12, scoring five successes, for four Momentum, increasing to five Momentum because the Pict is prone. The Elite Pict rolls 4, 5, 9, 17, and 17, for three successes, or two Momentum. The Elite Pict loses the Struggle, and Amala has three Momentum remaining.

Her damage roll is 1, 3, 4, 6, and 6, and she re-rolls the 3, rolling a 2 instead. A total of 5, but the Unforgiving quality takes effect, increasing that to a 7. The Piercing 2 she gets from Exploit takes effect too, ignoring the Pict's armour entirely. The Pict – already one Vigor short due to Edric's shield bash, is now on 6 Vigour, but more importantly, he's suffered a Wound. Amala then deposits three Momentum into the group pool.

The other group of Picts now dead, it's the end of the round, and one Momentum is lost. Two Picts remaining, one Elite Pict wounded, the other dead.

2 Momentum, 2 Doom. Edric and Adelstan have one Fortune point left each.

Round 3

Desperate, the Elite Pict spends a point of Doom to interrupt, uses his minor action to Stand, and lashes out at Amala with his hatchet. Already wounded, he's facing a Challenging D2 test to attack, and Amala chooses to spend a point of Momentum making that more difficult still, as she slips into a defensive stance. She considers a parry as well, but as she hasn't yet acted, it would be her second in a row, and add to Doom, so she decides otherwise. The Pict chooses to roll an extra dice, spending the last point from Doom, rolling 4, 5 and 19, for only two successes... not enough to succeed. He lashes out wildly with his hatchet, to no avail. He drops his spear, as it can't help him at this point.

Edric presses the Elite Pict, attacking with his sword. With no Doom remaining, the Pict is cornered and unable to defend effectively, so Edric just goes with the normal dice for his attack, rolling a 3 and a 16. Two successes, turning into a hit and one Momentum. He rolls damage: 1, 1, 2, and 6, for five damage. He spends that point of Momentum on Penetration, ignoring the Pict's armour, and the five damage is enough to inflict a second, fatal, Wound on the Pict.

Adelstan strides up the hill, and lays into the other Picts, spending the group's two Momentum on extra dice. Rolling 2, 3, 11, and 19, he scores three successes, for two Momentum of his own. Rolling damage, he rolls 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, and 6, for a total of 8 damage, which is enough to slay one of the Picts, but not both of them. He spends his Momentum on two extra points of damage, bringing his total to 10, which slays both Picts. The battle is concluded, the Picts slaughtered.

[End of combat example]

Quote from: nDervish;881927That's highly system-dependent.  In Mythras (the game formerly known as RuneQuest 6), for example, if a Minion from the mob makes a successful attack roll against you and you don't successfully parry, he gets to choose a Special Effect to inflict along with his damage, such as Choose Location (to hit an unarmored area), Disarm, or Trip Opponent.  However, his chance to hit is completely independent of your skill and even attempting to parry costs you an Action Point, which you get 2-3 of per turn.

Because of this, five Picts will slice up Conan (even if it's Chainmail Conan instead of Fur Loincloth Conan) nearly as easily as they would Cyrus McCivvie with no combat training whatsoever, unless Conan parries.  But the Picts have 10 AP between them, while Conan has only 3 AP to parry with.  Assuming the Picts have better than a 30% chance to hit, he can't parry all their attacks even if he foregoes offense and spends all his AP parrying... so he's still screwed.  Numbers kill.

So Mythras has optional rules for "Rabble", which are essentially mook rules and stipulate (among other things) that they may not cause Special Effects.  If the Picts are Rabble, Chainmail Conan can now take their attacks on his armor and get on with the business of being Conan and eviscerating them without getting tripped or disarmed every round.

The other way of making Conan able to deal with five Picts at once would be to jack up his stats so that he also has 10 AP, but that means a DEX+INT in the 109-120 range (1 AP per 12 DEX+INT, rounded up) in a system where human stats are 3-18.  Personally, I prefer allowing the Rabble rule over allowing stats on the order of triple human maximum.

There is a third way to handle Conan against five Picts in RQ6/MRQ2, the Outmanoeuvre action, which allows you to limit the amount of opponents that can attack you at the same  time. With good stats (which would include a good Evade), and the Outmanoeuvre action, you can handle several foes at the same time, with no need of mook rules.

That said, I didn't remember that RQ6/MRQ2 had rules for mooks. Like CRKrueger, I dislike them so much that I have ignored them completely.

My problem with mook rules is that they rob the players of the threat and thrill of combat, when they're aware of them, and make victory and heroics over numbers kind of hollow.  

I'm not against mook rules in principal, but I think they are a poor mechanic for the Hyborian Age where the threat of cold steel is essential to maintain the feel and themes.

On a further note, I always thought the image of Conan slaying hordes of nameless foes as primarily a legacy of Frazetta rather than Howard - not that there aren't examples in REH of Conan taking on and defeating numbers - but when he does, they are desperate struggles, and as often as not he avoids or even flees large numbers of opponents.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881929A whole lot of text and numbers

As has been said before by both me and proponents of the system, it plays better than it reads. Which is as much a statement of how poorly it reads as it is an example of its supposed ease of play;)

Chris, if you keep the 2d20's and rework everything else, you might have a returning customer. That's pretty much the only way I can see your system working for me. Everyone else will probably have different suggestions - enjoy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768To be honest the whole Mook/Minion thing doesn't make for rousing adventure, it makes for useless, cheap victories without merit.  Our 4 PCs with a total of 20 wounds, killed 5 Picts with a total of 5 wounds. Wow, aren't we awesome?  Not really, no.  You could curbstomp them and the three groups after them with your eyes closed.

This...

Quote from: Madprofessor;881942My problem with mook rules is that they rob the players of the threat and thrill of combat, when they're aware of them, and make victory and heroics over numbers kind of hollow.

... and this.

Whenever I enter to this thread and I want to make or refute a point, I see that either CRKrueger or Madprofessor already did.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881929Hi folks here's a combat example we just posted in the latest Kickstarter update:

I like the way this combat example sounds, except for one thing, the Doom economy. I don't mind spending one point of Doom here and there, but according to the example, the GM spends and obtains Doom points all the time. That's another onus on the GM, besides the other obligations a GM has to fulfill. Isn't that distracting?

Quote from: Claudius;881984I like the way this combat example sounds, except for one thing, the Doom economy. I don't mind spending one point of Doom here and there, but according to the example, the GM spends and obtains Doom points all the time. That's another onus on the GM, besides the other obligations a GM has to fulfill. Isn't that distracting?

Perhaps surprisingly no, it's really fun and draws the GM in to the action more. The doom pool can be a pile of tokens or dice in front of you, and is a visual representation to the players of the growing doom coming their way - read this as 'their lives are going to get interesting not just painful'

When you're playing it's easy to keep track off and is a reminder to use it, to make interesting things happen (which can also be scripted and not necessarily need Doom Points)

Quote from: Madprofessor;881942My problem with mook rules is that they rob the players of the threat and thrill of combat, when they're aware of them, and make victory and heroics over numbers kind of hollow.

No, they don't.  Unless you're talking Exalted?  All I know is that mooks/minions in all the games that I've played that have then, are lethal to the unprepared.  As they should be.

Quote from: Claudius;881984I like the way this combat example sounds, except for one thing, the Doom economy. I don't mind spending one point of Doom here and there, but according to the example, the GM spends and obtains Doom points all the time. That's another onus on the GM, besides the other obligations a GM has to fulfill. Isn't that distracting?

I just don't like the fact that I have to be controlled to challenge my players.  If I don't have the Doom dice, I can't really do anything.  Not to mention that it's very antagonistic in nature.  You're not playing with the players, but against them.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881995No, they don't.  Unless you're talking Exalted?  All I know is that mooks/minions in all the games that I've played that have then, are lethal to the unprepared.  As they should be.

I just don't like the fact that I have to be controlled to challenge my players.  If I don't have the Doom dice, I can't really do anything.  Not to mention that it's very antagonistic in nature.  You're not playing with the players, but against them.

Why do you see it as being controlled? You're no more controlled that in any other RPG system. I can still create a room full of a thousand mercenaries armed to the teeth if i want, or write in that this scene has a collapsing cathedral of stone which the players have to avoid. I don't have to spend Doom to make any of that happen, I just write it in to the story (or create it on the fly as I usually do). You can do everything without the doom dice - your npc's and minions still fight and act, natural events can still happen. The Doom dice let you add a layer of activity on top of what you might already do as GM.

Where do you get the idea it's antagonistic - no one's trying to beat the players. you don't have to spend the Doom points and you don't have to make the characters die with it, just as always you're the instigator of cool - you're still making their lives interesting, spending the points to create drama and moments for the players to be threatened, yet shine. The point of Doom Points is to make dangerous or exciting things happen - the players WANT to be captured so they can then discover the secrets of the temple, grab some treasure and escape, they want to fail to jump across the pit, fall and discover the mysterious ruins below.... you should be using Doom Points to add fun, not punish players.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881986Perhaps surprisingly no, it's really fun and draws the GM in to the action more.

Sounds like a shitty GM to begin with, if you ask me. I'm not seeing how having all these tokens and fiddly bits contribute a thing to immersion. It doesn't. This is definitely not a game for me.

Potatoe/potato

Quote from: Jason Coplen;882009Sounds like a shitty GM to begin with, if you ask me. I'm not seeing how having all these tokens and fiddly bits contribute a thing to immersion. It doesn't. This is definitely not a game for me.

Potatoe/potato

I suspect they don't contribute to immersion generally, though as has been mentioned in another thread, everyone's individual threshold is different. Though immersion isn't the goal of every player or every system.

If it is YOUR goal, though, you may be right that it isn't the system for you.

Wow.That example combat just convinced me to withdraw from the Kickstarter completely. Nothing to do with narrativism and metagaming, just a bloated, tedious system from what I read. I'll stick to Barbarians of Lemuria.

Quote from: Stainless;882054Wow.That example combat just convinced me to withdraw from the Kickstarter completely. Nothing to do with narrativism and metagaming, just a bloated, tedious system from what I read. I'll stick to Barbarians of Lemuria.

Same. I glazed over by the time I hit "doom pool."

QuoteHey everyone sorry I've been absent, I didn't realise there was such a long thread here :-). I thought I'd step in and take some of the heat!

Much appreciated, Chris.  It should be abundantly clear from this thread and others, including your own forums, that many people are unhappy with the 2d20 mechanics (the "heat" you spoke of). I expect that everything else, writing, art, layout, production will be top-notch, Kudos there, but this is a game after all so it's what's under the hood that counts.  As an REH fan and as a GM who has been running Hyborian Age games (off and on) for decades, for me this game should be a dream come true - instead it is a massive disappointment.

QuoteI'll repeat Jason's comments that once people actually try it, not read, not roll dice themselves but actually run it around a table with people that want to give it a go they usually are won over - not always I know and i know we're never going to convince everyone.

I realize you can't be all things to all people - but this seems a pretty  crappy argument for alienating an entire philosophy and the original approach to roleplaying that a large portion of the RPG community is devoted to.

The game reads fine.  The quickstart rules are clear.  I've run two playtests with them with two different groups - one of veteran RPGers like me, and one with my family and friends who are casual gamers. Neither experience "won me (or my players) over," and I wouldn't have bothered either group except that I was determined to give the game an honest try.  

In any case, throughout this forum I have done my best to articulate why I think the system is an awkward fit for the Hyborian Age, why I feel it is incompatible with traditional roleplaying (and I managed to run Legends of Anglerre just fine...), and why I think the system alienates a significant portion of the RPG community, notably those traditional immersionist style gamers who are REH fans.  I will not bother repeating those arguments here especially as we have been beating that horse to death, and because the combat example that you provided is pretty revealing of the sheer volume of the OoC metagame that is enmeshed throughout the 2d20 system.  

For me, this game has made clear the divisions between the traditional RPG and storygame communities who share common goals and a common hobby but have radically different approaches. Until I joined this forum I had no idea how deep those divisions have become (for example, check out some of the new discussion attempting to bridge the philosophical gap that were at least partially inspired by the arguments surrounding this game).  I am not here to criticize for the sake of criticism, nor am I here to say that my way is in any way the best way. My arguments are in the hope that you can understand some of the things that people like me might be upset about, and hopefully to persuade you to find some way to include traditional style roleplayers in your otherwise awesome project.  

QuoteWhat I will promise is we'll discuss with the team what options we have to make the system in some way friendlier to those who are opposed to certain aspects. There has been talk of a system toolkit which proposes ways of changing some elements of the system or how to hack it easily. So maybe something like that is a first step in the direction.

Wonderful! Do it.  Give us an official hack and/or a tool kit. What do you have to lose? If you make any concrete progress in this direction, I'm all in, and I'm sure others would be supportive as well.  And in the words of a former governor badly dressed up as Conan: "And if you do not listen - then to hell with you!" :D

QuoteOriginally posted by Madprofessor
My problem with mook rules is that they rob the players of the threat and thrill of combat, when they're aware of them, and make victory and heroics over numbers kind of hollow.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Christopher Brady
No, they don't. Unless you're talking Exalted? All I know is that mooks/minions in all the games that I've played that have then, are lethal to the unprepared. As they should be.

No offense, but I think the whole argument of whether mook rules are cool or not is pretty tangential.  I could care less about mook rules - as long as they are not hardboiled into the system.  I don't want to be forced to use them.  In most games they are a bolt-on mechanic that I can ignore, you can use - and we can all be happy.  The only things really relevant or interesting in the digression is 1) the degree to which mook rules are baked into the 2d20 Conan system, and 2) whether they are appropriate for REH Conan.

QuoteWow.That example combat just convinced me to withdraw from the Kickstarter completely. Nothing to do with narrativism and metagaming, just a bloated, tedious system from what I read. I'll stick to Barbarians of Lemuria.

BoL rocks!  But it's a bit too cinematic for REH Conan, IMHO - not that it couldn't work and work well with minimal adjustment and effort.  I prefer BRP/RQ6 for a grittier/bloodier Hyborian age, but I am splitting hairs really.  They're all awesome systems for S&S. BoL would be great for Comic book style Conan. :D (Savage Worlds Beasts and Barbarians might be cool for this too).

I understand that creating another Conan system doesn't make sense for Modiphius. How about releasing the systemless parts of it, though, as systemless setting books?

You have the art, and the text is already written, so you can just reformat any and/or all the books. Release them on Drivethru, and get some money even from people that would withdraw from the KS because of dislike for the 2d20 system! Add a POD option, and you might get even more.
You coukd even add them as reward levels to the KS, with a Print at cost option for Drivethru, and specify that they would be finished after the system books.

Quote from: nDervish;881927That's highly system-dependent.  In Mythras (the game formerly known as RuneQuest 6), for example, if a Minion from the mob makes a successful attack roll against you and you don't successfully parry, he gets to choose a Special Effect to inflict along with his damage, such as Choose Location (to hit an unarmored area), Disarm, or Trip Opponent.  However, his chance to hit is completely independent of your skill and even attempting to parry costs you an Action Point, which you get 2-3 of per turn.

Because of this, five Picts will slice up Conan (even if it's Chainmail Conan instead of Fur Loincloth Conan) nearly as easily as they would Cyrus McCivvie with no combat training whatsoever, unless Conan parries.  But the Picts have 10 AP between them, while Conan has only 3 AP to parry with.  Assuming the Picts have better than a 30% chance to hit, he can't parry all their attacks even if he foregoes offense and spends all his AP parrying... so he's still screwed.  Numbers kill.

So Mythras has optional rules for "Rabble", which are essentially mook rules and stipulate (among other things) that they may not cause Special Effects.  If the Picts are Rabble, Chainmail Conan can now take their attacks on his armor and get on with the business of being Conan and eviscerating them without getting tripped or disarmed every round.

The other way of making Conan able to deal with five Picts at once would be to jack up his stats so that he also has 10 AP, but that means a DEX+INT in the 109-120 range (1 AP per 12 DEX+INT, rounded up) in a system where human stats are 3-18.  Personally, I prefer allowing the Rabble rule over allowing stats on the order of triple human maximum.



My guess is that he was referring to the "fighters get one attack per level against opponents of 1 HD or less" rule.



I don't see a contradiction there.  Although narrative systems are more likely to be rules-light, "narrative" and "crunchy" are not antonyms, or even opposed to each other.



Good to hear it - thanks!

Quote from: Claudius;881931There is a third way to handle Conan against five Picts in RQ6/MRQ2, the Outmanoeuvre action, which allows you to limit the amount of opponents that can attack you at the same  time. With good stats (which would include a good Evade), and the Outmanoeuvre action, you can handle several foes at the same time, with no need of mook rules.

That said, I didn't remember that RQ6/MRQ2 had rules for mooks. Like CRKrueger, I dislike them so much that I have ignored them completely.

I was just going to post that we've alwaysused the third solution.

Quote from: Madprofessor;881942My problem with mook rules is that they rob the players of the threat and thrill of combat, when they're aware of them, and make victory and heroics over numbers kind of hollow.  

I'm not against mook rules in principal, but I think they are a poor mechanic for the Hyborian Age where the threat of cold steel is essential to maintain the feel and themes.

On a further note, I always thought the image of Conan slaying hordes of nameless foes as primarily a legacy of Frazetta rather than Howard - not that there aren't examples in REH of Conan taking on and defeating numbers - but when he does, they are desperate struggles, and as often as not he avoids or even flees large numbers of opponents.

He avoided facing skilled enemies in numbers, whenever possible. The rabble, he just slew.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881743@JasonD  

How easy are npcs and enemies to stat on the fly?

Fairly easy. We use Areas of Expertise which handle skill categories, which means that you can just decide on the fly that your Nemedian Guardsmen will have 10 in all combat-related skills (melee, parry, etc.). Then it's just deciding how much Vigor and Resolve they have (also a fairly easy number to choose, and the rest is equipment, with talents for flavor. We're also going to be providing a lot of sample NPCs and creatures, so you'll have plenty of options, as well as guidelines for creating fresh/new does.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768BTW, are Hit Dice supposed to be some form of Mook Rule?  Is that where the "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" part came from?  That's a pretty big stretch.

Player characters of levels 1+ gained multiple attacks against 0-level characters (mooks). IIRC, a 7th-level fighter could make attacks against 7 0-level characters in a round.

If that's not a mook rule, I don't know what one is.

Quote from: Jason D;882225Player characters of levels 1+ gained multiple attacks against 0-level characters (mooks). IIRC, a 7th-level fighter could make attacks against 7 0-level characters in a round.

If that's not a mook rule, I don't know what one is.

Ok, yeah someone pointed that out, but 0 level human is a shopkeeper, maybe a town guardsman.  I can't remember one of my fighters ever fighting Zero-level guys.  But the rule is there, unlikely as you are to use it while adventuring.

Does any Pict that makes it to adulthood and become a warrior count as a zero-level character?  Howard's "barbarian vs. civilization" theme would suggest otherwise.

For that matter, does it seem true to Beyond the Black River to have an Aquilonian Knight, a Nemedian Mercenary, and Hyperborean easily detect a group of Picts trying to ambush them and then beat 6 Picts without taking a scratch?  Balthus was a Forester from the Tauran, his skills would be superior to most Hyborians and he got surprised every time by the Picts.  Only Conan even had a chance to detect them and even he got surprised once.

The Picts in Beyond the Black River are scary.  The ones in the QuickStart and the Combat example are very underwhelming.  Not Howardian at all.

Oh, and we need stats on Slasher. :D

Quote from: Claudius;881931There is a third way to handle Conan against five Picts in RQ6/MRQ2, the Outmanoeuvre action, which allows you to limit the amount of opponents that can attack you at the same  time. With good stats (which would include a good Evade), and the Outmanoeuvre action, you can handle several foes at the same time, with no need of mook rules.

Yeah, I considered mentioning that, but skipped it for two reasons:

1) I was trying to avoid getting into specific details of rules any more than was necessary.

2) My image of Conan is all about kicking ass and taking names, not running around, looking for things he can dodge behind and whittle down the peons one by one.  As AsenRG said, "He avoided facing skilled enemies in numbers, whenever possible. The rabble, he just slew."

Outmaneuver would definitely be the proper approach to handling a five-on-one in a realistic campaign or Conan vs. five skilled enemies, but the Rabble rule feels more appropriate to me for Conan vs. five lesser foes.  But YCMV, of course.

Quote from: Claudius;881984I don't mind spending one point of Doom here and there, but according to the example, the GM spends and obtains Doom points all the time.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881995Not to mention that it's very antagonistic in nature.  You're not playing with the players, but against them.

Yep.  These are basically the things I immediately disliked while reading the quickstart.  Nice to see that I was able to figure out the system just by reading it instead of having to actually play it to see how it behaves.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882232Ok, yeah someone pointed that out, but 0 level human is a shopkeeper, maybe a town guardsman.  I can't remember one of my fighters ever fighting Zero-level guys.  But the rule is there, unlikely as you are to use it while adventuring.

It's 1 HD or less, not 0 HD, so it applies against orcs, goblins (but not hobgoblins, which are 1+1 HD), normal human rank-and-file troops, etc.

Personally, I've always considered it a special ability of the Fighter class (since only Fighters get these extra attacks) rather than a mook rule (which implies it's a characteristic of the mook, not of the person attacking them), but I suspect that's largely six of one, half-dozen of the other.  Also, it's not based on narrative importance - NPCs/monsters can do this, too, not just the PCs... and it can also be used against first-level PCs...  ("Oh, your 1st-level party wants to pick a fight with a 7th level noble?  OK.  He gets 7 attacks and TPKs you on the first round of combat.")

Quote from: Necrozius;879972Hey Jason: limited budget here. Can I make do with just the core book to run a campaign in this setting? Are the supplementary books just further fleshing out of these Nations or are they pretty much needed if the PCs decide to visit Stygia  (or whatever)? In other words, can one of my players pick a thief archetype without the book on thief campaigns?

The core book will have decent overviews of each country, and the core rules provide enough information for you to handle any type of campaign you'd like, assuming you don't want to go into the nitty-gritty of that particular playstyle.

For example, the core book's lifepaths allow a character to have a lifepath that grooms your character for nobility, but does not prohibit the player from choosing to play a thief. The lifepaths in Conan the Thief will be much more focused, with characters inevitably ending up on the wrong side of the law and having backgrounds that shape them towards that specific goal.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882232Ok, yeah someone pointed that out, but 0 level human is a shopkeeper, maybe a town guardsman.  I can't remember one of my fighters ever fighting Zero-level guys.  But the rule is there, unlikely as you are to use it while adventuring.

Does any Pict that makes it to adulthood and become a warrior count as a zero-level character?  Howard's "barbarian vs. civilization" theme would suggest otherwise.

For that matter, does it seem true to Beyond the Black River to have an Aquilonian Knight, a Nemedian Mercenary, and Hyperborean easily detect a group of Picts trying to ambush them and then beat 6 Picts without taking a scratch?  Balthus was a Forester from the Tauran, his skills would be superior to most Hyborians and he got surprised every time by the Picts.  Only Conan even had a chance to detect them and even he got surprised once.

The Picts in Beyond the Black River are scary.  The ones in the QuickStart and the Combat example are very underwhelming.  Not Howardian at all.

Oh, and we need stats on Slasher. :D

I'll have to admit to some cognitive dissonance here.

You're arguing that Picts are poorly-represented as Minions, and you keep bringing up "Beyond the Black River".

Remember how that ends?

Quote"If the youth Balthus and old Slasher hadn't held them up awhile, they'd have butchered every woman and child in Conajohara. I passed the place where Balthus and the dog made their last stand. They were lying amid a heap of dead Picts--I counted seven, brained by his ax, or disemboweled by the dog's fangs, and there were others in the road with arrows sticking in them. Gods, what a fight that must have been!"

One young forester and a dog took out seven Picts in hand-to-hand combat and others in the moments before the fight.

At a minimum, that's a fight of two killing at least nine.

The PCs in the quickstart are assume to be heroic characters, whereas Balthus might be considered a talented newcomer, but not the level of a PC.  

You've made your point that you don't like mook rules, but your point of reference as to why they don't work demonstrates the very opposite position.

Quote from: Jason D;882245I'll have to admit to some cognitive dissonance here.

You're arguing that Picts are poorly-represented as Minions, and you keep bringing up "Beyond the Black River".

Remember how that ends?



One young forester and a dog took out seven Picts in hand-to-hand combat and others in the moments before the fight.

At a minimum, that's a fight of two killing at least nine.

The PCs in the quickstart are assume to be heroic characters, whereas Balthus might be considered a talented newcomer, but not the level of a PC.  

You've made your point that you don't like mook rules, but your point of reference as to why they don't work demonstrates the very opposite position.

The dog killed three before the final charge, leaving four+, and both were killed in that battle.  

2 vs. 6 TPK
3 vs. 6 not a scratch.
Slightly different.

Also Conan at that point in his life has been through most of his stories, traveled to the East and back and spent years as a pirate and mercenary.  Surely you're not suggesting starting PCs are supposed to mimic his performance.

The problem with games that use Mook Rules is, there's always Mooks in every encounter, there's no sense of scale.

Brythunian town militia, they're all Mooks if you insist for some reason you must have Mooks.  The Black Dragons are probably all Elites or mostly PC level.

Instead of minions and elites, elites and mighty foes would be better for a good fight.  Hell, even minions would be better without Mob rules.  Mob rules are one thing in games with auto fire, but they're awkward as hell in Melee.  On the attack, you have to assume they can somehow always team up, and on the defense, what they all parry together and fail so get chopped down in one attack?

QuoteI counted seven, brained by his ax, or disemboweled by the dog's fangs, and there were others in the road with arrows sticking in them. Gods, what a fight that must have been!"

I think this is an excellent argument and example, Jason.  I'm in the middle of moving and don't have my books with me or I would take it up more fully.

Of course, the character above who spoke in such astonishment didn't realize that there were mook rules involved, if he did, it wouldn't have been worth mentioning!

Quote from: Jason D;882245I'll have to admit to some cognitive dissonance here.

The discussion seems to have reached a stall point created by some largely incompatible view points on things like immersion, abstraction, how mechanics interact with setting and what the "ideal" Conan game should be. But honestly, its starting to sound like a "I don't like cupcakes, why aren't they brownies?" debate.

Roleplaying vs. Storytelling
Playing in a setting vs. Playing in a story

The game is obviously the latter of both of those, but no matter which it is, the title is billed as the most Howard accurate game there is.

Cimmerians and Picts are age-old enemies.  If you're the Soviet Union, your main adversary isn't Lichtenstein.  The Cimmerians are one of the strongest, most barbaric races in Hyboria (and in Howard's world, barbarian means better).  Their age old enemy isn't a race of Mooks, it's a race that despite their smaller size and primitive technology, is even more barbaric and savage.

Think of how well the native Americans fought with bows and hatchets against rifles.  Now take away the rifles and fight them.

The Picts are a race that once they get steel, are destined to conquer most of the West.

Even in a game with Minions and Mobs, they shouldn't always apply.

Also, they've been hearing similar things about the system said everywhere the game is being discussed, to the point where understandably they won't make a second system version, but might put out some alternate options to deal with these concerns.

Firstly, I am a huge R.E.H fan and most of my gaming for several years have been me running adventures set in the Hyborian Age. I am a fairly simple creature. So Barbarians of Lemuria became my to-go system for Conan. I also got the big yellow BRP book for running Hyborian Age games since it also is quite straight forward and for the times I want a bit more gritty details. And I 'get' it in a way I never could decipher Mongoose Conan.  And I also dabbled with various other systems to fuel my Conan gaming. Be it Jaws of the Six Serpents , On Mighty Thews, Savage Worlds, Fate Accelerated, ZeFRS, OSR s&s games like Crypts and Things and Crimson Blades etc. Anything that seems to be able to handle Hyborian Age fast paced, easy to learn and give a lot of freedom for both players and gm to improvise is on my radar.

1. The game is simply too complex to be fast paced with all those points to keep track of,  and all those conditions to refill them. Combat feels just sluggish slow moving, too much to keep track of for me without set piece battles which adds nothing special worth the hazzle or investment. Too many rolls , too many moving parts that integrates  very closely to the point pool mechanic. It is very fiddly in both ends of the system. Even if you could tear out the point-economy, there is some serious meaty parts to the basic 2d20 system itself. And you may call me dumb and stupid but neither me or my players understands the big selling point about this system. We have done the Quickstart, watched the playtest videos etc. It feels like hammering a square into a triangular hole. It is just not a good fit for the genre.  But it could be! I would say that in its MC3 adaption, it seems far better for what it is trying to do. I dont like it. But I do think it does seems genre appropriate for that universe. The Dark Symmetry dice, heavy detailed mechanics and tuned in with the warzone miniatures line etc. I just wish the developers would have put the same effort to make it more genre appropriate for Conan. And that would demand to kill some darlings.

2: Since the mechanics are so finely integrated with each other, modularity seems like needing total system rewrite. I just wish there could be some kind of appendix with guidelines for running this game with less focus on mechanics, and giving more space for actual storytelling without straightjacket. So options to streamline gameplay and table time.1-2 hours combat encounters that demand set piece terrain and minis is just not what I want for Hyborian Age campaign's. Even if someone else find it super simple and easy, good for you, but I have already kickstarted the Monolith Conan game for that experiance. Just give us slacker gamers a bone and I'll happily devour the whole product line.

Let it be clear also that I have no particular problem with narrative mechanics per se, or any problem with mook rules as such. I have both  in my games.  I just cant see how this new Conan game could be for someone like me. And sure, there is no obligation to please my personal tastes, so fine as well. But I cant think that I am in some way a uniqe snowflake. As in : A dude just loving sword&sorcery games and rpgs in general, with a very soft spot for the Hyborian Age setting, looking for a rules light genre emulation game.

Yeah, they've been taking hits from both sides.
1. Lot of people don't like Narrative rules.
2. Lot of people that do like narrative rules don't like much crunch.

Have to say they've been doing a bang up job of not just saying, "Well, bye." but actually looking to engage.

Oh and welcome Teodrik even though you're an infidel and filthy mook-lover. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;882280Have to say they've been doing a bang up job of not just saying, "Well, bye." but actually looking to engage.

Oh and welcome Teodrik even though you're an infidel and filthy mook-lover. :D

 I am just a slacker gamer dabbling on the oh so sweet borderlands to the dark side   ;). Mooks is just a means to an end: Less paperwork.

And thanks by the way :)

Quote from: CRKrueger;882280Have to say they've been doing a bang up job of not just saying, "Well, bye." but actually looking to engage.:D

Thanks, but yeah, at this point it's one of those cases were it's clear that there's not any easy way to make these brownies please the lemon bar aficionados, so we're just going to stick with adding more chocolate and maybe throwing in some walnuts.

Quote from: AsenRG;882220I understand that creating another Conan system doesn't make sense for Modiphius. How about releasing the systemless parts of it, though, as systemless setting books?

This would be great. :) I very likely would pick up any such systemless books.

Quote from: Akrasia;882307This would be great. :) I very likely would pick up any such systemless books.

This would be fantastic.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882280Yeah, they've been taking hits from both sides.
1. Lot of people don't like Narrative rules.
2. Lot of people that do like narrative rules don't like much crunch.

I think 2. is broader than that and includes:

2. Lot of people that do like narrative rules don't like competitive crunch.

Saw this in the QuickStart and now in the example:

Do I understand correctly that it's easier for an Elite warrior to sneak up on a position when accompanied by a mob than when operating all alone?

Quote from: Arminius;882336Saw this in the QuickStart and now in the example:

Do I understand correctly that it's easier for an Elite warrior to sneak up on a position when accompanied by a mob than when operating all alone?

Yeap.

Quote from: Arminius;882336Saw this in the QuickStart and now in the example:

Do I understand correctly that it's easier for an Elite warrior to sneak up on a position when accompanied by a mob than when operating all alone?

Yeah, stealth is problematic with the "more is better" rule.

I also saw something bizarre in the ambush rule (I think) but the latter seems so obviously mangled that I would hope it will be fixed in the next revision of the QS.

Not quite.

The GM would decide how easy it is for a single warrior to sneak up on someone (Difficulty 1, depending on circumstances) versus a group attempting the same task (Difficulty 3, 4, or even 5 based on circumstances).

Quote from: Jason D;882412Not quite.

The GM would decide how easy it is for a single warrior to sneak up on someone (Difficulty 1, depending on circumstances) versus a group attempting the same task (Difficulty 3, 4, or even 5 based on circumstances).

Sweet, problem solved on that one. :D  

Part of the issue I think is we don't have all the rules yet, so we're seeing specific examples of things and extrapolating broader application without seeing all the rules that apply those broader applications.  To be fair, though, the example doesn't use that, just declaring "As this is a normal Struggle, all tests are Simple D0".

At this point though, to save Jason's sanity, I'll shut my fucking piehole until I play the thing tonight. :cool:

Quote from: Akrasia;882307This would be great. :) I very likely would pick up any such systemless books.

Quote from: Teodrik;882312This would be fantastic.

Yeah, I kinda had a feeling we might get such reactions:).

Jason, is there any chance for that happening;)?

Quote from: CRKrueger;882273Cimmerians and Picts are age-old enemies.  If you're the Soviet Union, your main adversary isn't Lichtenstein.  The Cimmerians are one of the strongest, most barbaric races in Hyboria (and in Howard's world, barbarian means better).  Their age old enemy isn't a race of Mooks, it's a race that despite their smaller size and primitive technology, is even more barbaric and savage.

Think of how well the native Americans fought with bows and hatchets against rifles.  Now take away the rifles and fight them.

The Picts are a race that once they get steel, are destined to conquer most of the West.

1) All people are mooks. Some earn not to be.
2) The results likely wouldn't change, as the conquistadors have shown. The Aztecs and the Mayans weren't any worse as warriors than other Native Americans. They didn't lose to guns, despite the myth, they lost to their enemies being groups of PCs with military training and superior military organisation.
3) They get steel and military training and experience by becoming mercenaries for the people they're planning to conquer. It's called "military know-how" for a reason:D.

So yeah, Picts being mooks doesn't bother me any more than Azguli or Nemedians being mooks.

Quote from: nDervish;8822402) My image of Conan is all about kicking ass and taking names, not running around, looking for things he can dodge behind and whittle down the peons one by one.  As AsenRG said, "He avoided facing skilled enemies in numbers, whenever possible. The rabble, he just slew."

That's not what "outmanoeuvre" is. You can do it that way, but it would just as often be "jumping so your enemies are in a line and/or can't reach you". Read the fight against the locals in "Xutal of the Dusk/The Slithering Shadow". He's attacking all the time, and yet's he's using Outmanoeuvre, speaking in RQ6 mechanics.
And he's definitely facing not just mooks, but mooks who are out of practice and just woke up from drug-induced dreams.
I guess Howard was going easy on his character, knowing the big fight with the demon god is approaching:D!

QuoteOutmaneuver would definitely be the proper approach to handling a five-on-one in a realistic campaign or Conan vs. five skilled enemies, but the Rabble rule feels more appropriate to me for Conan vs. five lesser foes.  But YCMV, of course.

You can achieve the same result by giving them low skills, and introducing the following:
"You can pick whether to defend after you see the enemy's roll", and "You can use the Special Effect "Outmanouevre", allowing you to roll an Outmaneuvre action". You can trigger the Special Effect on both attack and defence;).

Just thought I would post this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1507416

Quote from: Jason D;882750Just thought I would post this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1507416

Now that is something I might pick up for the fluff.

Quote from: AsenRG;8824701) All people are mooks. Some earn not to be.

Picts and Cimmerians earned that right by surviving to adulthood in the harshest and most brutal environments and cultures in the world.  

Quote from: AsenRG;882470So yeah, Picts being mooks doesn't bother me any more than Azguli or Nemedians being mooks.

That's only because you've completely missed the entire point of Howard's "Barbarian vs. Civilization" theme, which is only present in...oh, most of Conan and Kull.

A young savage or barbarian, on his very first warparty, that's maybe a minion.  The default Pict, or default Cimmerian, you may as well say the default Spartan is a minion, it's equally inane.

Elites are more than enough to make them still "Dramatically a lesser form of being to keep narrative structure" if you, for some reason, seem hell bent on having it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882762Picts and Cimmerians earned that right by surviving to adulthood in the harshest and most brutal environments and cultures in the world.  

That's only because you've completely missed the entire point of Howard's "Barbarian vs. Civilization" theme, which is only present in...oh, most of Conan and Kull.

A young savage or barbarian, on his very first warparty, that's maybe a minion.  The default Pict, or default Cimmerian, you may as well say the default Spartan is a minion, it's equally inane.

So then how did a young Bossonian woodsman with no kills to his name take out at least nine of these guys? Did Slasher do all the work?

Quote from: Jason D;882750Just thought I would post this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1507416

Valka!

Kull, Brule the Spear Slayer and Thulsa Doom...and slithering in the shadows the Snakes-that-Speak...

Ka nama kaa lajerama!

Jesus Wept, that was a score, what else do you guys have hiding, Solomon Kane? :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;882767Valka!

Kull, Brule the Spear Slayer and Thulsa Doom...and slithering in the shadows the Snakes-that-Speak...

Ka nama kaa lajerama!

Jesus Wept, that was a score, what else do you guys have hiding, Solomon Kane? :D

Nope. Solomon Kane is still (as far as I can imagine) at home with Pinnacle.

We were asked by fans about Bran Mak Morn, which would be interesting, but also isn't on our schedule.

Quote from: Jason D;882764So then how did a young Bossonian woodsman with no kills to his name take out at least nine of these guys? Did Slasher do all the work?

1. You'd have to show me where Howard says Balthus has no kills to his name before he entered Conajohara, because I sure can't find it.
2. He wasn't unblooded at that final battle, since he had killed Picts with Conan earlier.
3. If we're assuming 9, Slasher did kill 3 of those 9 by himself before the fight started, so we're back to 2 vs. 6 (but by the time the fight was at the end, more Picts had probably arrived from Tuscelan).
4. Slasher and Balthus were working together with their backs to a stand of logs.
5. Of course the most important thing is this:

Your contention is that Picts as minions or even worse, a Mob of minions accurately models Beyond the Black River, but in Nathan's own combat example here's the comparison...

Beyond the Black River - 2 kill 6 and both die.
Combat Example using Minions - 3 kill 8 without a scratch.

Now, I'm not exactly sure I would call that a satisfying representation, would you...really?

Pretty sure you could make all the Picts in the combat example Elites and the PCs would still win, but it would be a tough fight, and something straight out of Beyond the Black River.  The Mob of Minions works for sailors in a bar, or street thugs in the Maul, not for a more savage and barbaric level of foe.

Yeah I hate Mooks, but I'm looking at the system for what it's trying to do. I'm not saying don't use them, I'm not even saying don't use them narratively, I'm saying that when you use them narratively, you still have to use them properly and not have the standard go-to fight in this game be PCs vs. Mobs of Minions, no matter what type of foe it is.

You have to discriminate, and keep true to the tales.  Your system does not model Picts out of BtBR if you treat them as Mobs of minions, as your combat example itself shows.

I know it's a Quickstart and a Combat Example, and the rules aren't all there, and you're not looking as closely as you will for the final adventures.

But the assumption that every human in the world that doesn't have a name is a Minion is a major failing of other systems that do use Mook rules.

Quote from: Jason D;882769Nope. Solomon Kane is still (as far as I can imagine) at home with Pinnacle.

We were asked by fans about Bran Mak Morn, which would be interesting, but also isn't on our schedule.

Interesting.  Since Pinnacle usually does a "few books and out" approach, I figured they wouldn't have gotten such a long license.

Just for the hell of it, I'm going to run the Combat Example three ways, one with each group of Picts having an...

• Elite, with a 3 Minion Mob
• Elite, with 3 Minions unmobbed
• 4 Elites

Will post the results.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882772Interesting.  Since Pinnacle usually does a "few books and out" approach, I figured they wouldn't have gotten such a long license.

I assume they've still got the license, as the books are still available through their webstore.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882762Picts and Cimmerians earned that right by surviving to adulthood in the harshest and most brutal environments and cultures in the world.

Nope, they don't. What they do earn is the right and ability to fight, sneak and intimidate, not break when faced with naked steel, and be dangerous even to veterans. But veterans still tend to slay them.
Think of these people as street fighters, something Howard was familiar with. Do they get to smash any "civilised", trained but inexperienced fighter? There's good odds that they would overwhelm him, yes, not to mention a "civilian".
Are they going to hold against SWAT members, or someone like Jack Dempsey, in an equal fight? Almost no chances of that.
(Yes, I know Dempsey was called a savage. That's boxing promoting. I've got at least one of his books, and his theory is deeper and more logical than some Eastern theories I'm familiar with. And might be stated to require more thinking, too).

And Jack Dempsey is who you should think of if you want a physical representation of Conan.

QuoteThat's only because you've completely missed the entire point of Howard's "Barbarian vs. Civilization" theme, which is only present in...oh, most of Conan and Kull.

Nope, I haven't missed anything. Average Picts against average Aquilonians, no contest.

BTW, Conan is still exceptional among Northerners, too. As evidenced in, say, "The Frost-Giant's Daughter".

QuoteA young savage or barbarian, on his very first warparty, that's maybe a minion.  The default Pict, or default Cimmerian, you may as well say the default Spartan is a minion, it's equally inane.

Spartans are a special case, in that they went out of school as veterans. But they were training all their lives, which was provided for by the work of helots - a luxury neither Cimmerians nor Picts would have.
And yet, go and check how many Olympic medals Spartans have earned in wrestling, boxing or pancration;).

Quote from: Jason D;882764So then how did a young Bossonian woodsman with no kills to his name take out at least nine of these guys? Did Slasher do all the work?

Yes, that's more or less my logic.

Quote from: CRKrueger;8827701. You'd have to show me where Howard says Balthus has no kills to his name before he entered Conajohara, because I sure can't find it.

His behaviour when confronted with Picts prior to his death proves that.

Quote2. He wasn't unblooded at that final battle, since he had killed Picts with Conan earlier.

Which is why he got to die a hero. He got the speed course in stress innoculation.

Quote3. If we're assuming 9, Slasher did kill 3 of those 9 by himself before the fight started, so we're back to 2 vs. 6 (but by the time the fight was at the end, more Picts had probably arrived from Tuscelan).

...seriously? You think that he and his dog might have killed 6 experienced combatants in hand-to-hand combat?
No. Just no. Go and re-read the story. Veteran Balthus wasn't, though he died a hero. And that fits a Texan narrative of the time, for all I can tell - a man rises to the situation when confronted with it.

Quote4. Slasher and Balthus were working together with their backs to a stand of logs.

So what? If Picts were as great warriors as you believe them to be, maybe 1 pict would have died, and another couple would have been wounded, in the final hand-to-hand fight.

Quote5. Of course the most important thing is this:

Your contention is that Picts as minions or even worse, a Mob of minions accurately models Beyond the Black River, but in Nathan's own combat example here's the comparison...

Beyond the Black River - 2 kill 6 and both die.
Combat Example using Minions - 3 kill 8 without a scratch.

Now, I'm not exactly sure I would call that a satisfying representation, would you...really?

And mechanically, Jason D already stated that Balthus isn't a starting character. He's good material for one. Starting characters are Young Conan, Young Juma, and their likes.

Quote from: AsenRG;882781Nope, I haven't missed anything. Average Picts against average Aquilonians, no contest.

Actually, you're pretty much missing that you just made my point for me.  Thanks by the way.

The representation you are supporting...
Picts (Mob of Minions) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Hmm, seems like that would be a contest in the 2d20 system.

Where as the representation I am supporting...
Picts (Elites) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Would be more like the "no contest" you yourself are describing.

Picts as Minions does not model BtBR as the designers combat example itself shows.

Picts as Minions does not even model your own statement.

You like Mooks. Got it.  Move past the point where you blindly attack everything I say against narrative and realize I'm done saying they shouldn't exist, we're now talking about their application considering that in this game, they do exist.

I should also point out that the Picts in the quickstart may not match up with those in the final core book.

A TPK in the first published adventure is not a particularly great way to sell the game line to newcomers, and we've already gotten a number of players commenting about how difficult/harrowing the scenario is, as published.

Quote from: Jason D;882793I should also point out that the Picts in the quickstart may not match up with those in the final core book.

A TPK in the first published adventure is not a particularly great way to sell the game line to newcomers, and we've already gotten a number of players commenting about how difficult/harrowing the scenario is, as published.

One of my players drew Wife Aggro yesterday, so we decided to put it off until tonight.  Since I'm lucky enough to have the day off, I'm going to run the three tests with a friend today, then run the adventure tonight and see how it goes.

To be fair, combat examples aren't necessarily known for giving the most accurate representation if the numbers are hand-picked to show specific examples, and I don't know what type of example it was meant to be.

Edit: The Chakan looks brutal, but any single opponent can be wolfpacked.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882787Actually, you're pretty much missing that you just made my point for me.  Thanks by the way.

The representation you are supporting...
Picts (Mob of Minions) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Hmm, seems like that would be a contest in the 2d20 system.

Le sigh.
Man, the difference is that these would be Picts (mob of random picts) vs. Aquilonians (green recruits fresh out of basic camp). That's not "Picts vs Aquilonian civilians":).

QuoteWhere as the representation I am supporting...
Picts (Elites) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Would be more like the "no contest" you yourself are describing.

No. Picts (Elites) is the best of the best of the Picts, and it's no contest vs. green Aquilonian recruits. But against green recruits, it would be a normal contest.
The difference is, Picts would outmatch the Aquilonians in individual combat. But at army level, the Aquilonians would be at least equal.
The difference is, of course, that not every Aquilonian has been a recruit...while every single Pict, has been a Pict all his life;).

QuotePicts as Minions does not even model your own statement.

It does model my statement. Except not all Aquilonians get to count even as Minions.

QuoteYou like Mooks. Got it.

No, not really - I dislike it for aesthetic reasons.
But they are a handy way to represent a step in being used to combat. Not necessarily technically good at it, although it often follows, but used to it. The distinction is important, and a single number in combat skill doesn't represent it well, IMO.

QuoteMove past the point where you blindly attack everything I say against narrative and realize I'm done saying they shouldn't exist, we're now talking about their application considering that in this game, they do exist.

I wasn't attacking your ideas about the narrative level of the mechanics. I was attacking your ideas about translating the setting into mechanics - any mechanics;).

You have read the Quickstart, right?

Mob of Minions (1 wound each) - Lowest form of enemy
Minions (1 wound) - Same as Mob, but at least can't be cut down enmass with a single attack.
Elites (2 wounds) - "Hardened Foe" according to the QS
PC level (5 wounds) - "Mighty Foe" according to the QS

The Panther, Chakan, and Anavenagar the Pict are Mighty Foes.  Anavenagar is the best of the best of the Picts, and you can argue he's not even that since we know for sure he's not Zogar Sag level just like the PCs aren't Conan level.

Elites are far from the Best of the Best they're basically just "not the worst there is".

The problem is if Pict warriors are Mobs of Minions, then what are sailors, street thugs, dockworkers, and other enemies?

You put Pict warriors on the bottom of your Narrative Tree of Dramatically Important Lifeforms, you have nowhere to go below that.

There's no room for Zamoran pimp with his 4 street toughs.

Quote from: AsenRG;882803I wasn't attacking your ideas about the narrative level of the mechanics. I was attacking your ideas about translating the setting into mechanics - any mechanics;).

As a fencer do you get any personal satisfaction from beating people who never picked up a weapon before?  Kinda sounds like your characters or players do. :D

BTW, about the whole "Balthus is a young pup who isn't close to a PC".  Balthus is a young man, but a seasoned tracker, trained probably by his family like most people in the wilderness are.  Who is Balthus's family?  Oh well, his uncle was one of the few survivors of Venarium...probably didn't teach his nephew anything, just spun yarns all day.

Compare with...
Born in the Westermarck, the region running between the Black River and Aquilonia, Lucina has seen the steady increase of settlements and the traffic of Aquilonia's advance into Pictish territory. She  has also seen firsthand the effects of the Pict's response, a trespass met with blood and fire. Trained in herbalism and a tradition of magical arts by her mother - a hedge witch—Lucina knows a few tricks and has used them to keep herself and her flock alive.

Adelstan's father was a knight in service to Aquilonia, killed in one of King Numedides' many border wars with Zingara, and his mother, a noble's handmaiden who died in childbirth. Thus orphaned, Adelstan was fostered as a squire, learning the way of mounted horsemanship, chivalry, and armed combat. With little but his war-gear, Adelstan has come to the Aquilonian border to make a name for himself, so that he can return to more civilized lands and earn some sort of rank or title.  

The youngest son of a wealthy aquilonian family, Petrus came into his inheritance just as his elder siblings finished gambling it away. With little to his name, he set off to the Westermark and the Bossonian Marches, where King Numedides of Aquilonia is giving away land to his barons. Though trained in the ways of war, Petrus is far more suited as a diplomat and a leader. Mitra willing, he will command a noble house one day, perhaps as a baron or greater. Currently, Petrus has found employ as hired mercenary at the edge of Pictland.

Wow, those are some hard-bitten killers.  Death on two legs.

Combat Test 1. Straight out of the example (2 groups of 1 Elite with a 3 Minion Mob.).
Results, 3 PCs vaporized the 8 Picts.  No Wounds taken. No Fortune spent.

Combat Test 2.  Changed Mobs to single Minions (had to give them two dice instead of one, otherwise they are useless unmobbed.)
Results, 3 PCs took longer to kill the 8 Picts, and one of them took one Wound.  No Fortune spent.

Combat Test 3.  Made all 8 Picts Elites.
Results, 3 PCs beat the 8 Picts, 2 of them taking one wound, one of them taking two wounds.  2 PCs spent 1 Fortune, 1 Spent 2.

Elites are far from "PC Killers" even in numbers, they just put up a decent fight.

Will be starting the adventure in a while...

QuoteJust thought I would post this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1507416

Wow, this is awesome.  Kull is overdue for an RPG treatment.  REH didn't write much though, and what there is was kinda trippy.  Seems like it would be difficult to translate.  I'm interested in seeing what you guys can come up with.

CRK, the combat analysis is pretty damn helpful to me as I wrap my brain around the system and try to figure out how to make it work.  In both my tests the PCs obliterated the Picts as well. It seems like what they call "elites" would make a pretty typical adversary.  I could even see scaling "elite" Picts or other powerful foes up with another wound or slightly higher skills (easily done). Another option might be to scale PCs down but this might introduce larger complications.  Being outnumbered by Picts nearly 3 to 1 in their own territory should be cause for fear for any PC.  At least, that's how I see it.  Anyway, much appreciated.

Quote from: Jason D;882793I should also point out that the Picts in the quickstart may not match up with those in the final core book.

A TPK in the first published adventure is not a particularly great way to sell the game line to newcomers, and we've already gotten a number of players commenting about how difficult/harrowing the scenario is, as published.

Are there different level or quality of "mooks" or is it a binary situation: a character is either a Mook or built as a PC?

Quote from: Nexus;882964Are there different level or quality of "mooks" or is it a binary situation: a character is either a Mook or built as a PC?

PCs roll 2d20 for checks and have 5 wounds.  Mighty Foes are PC level.
Elites, or Hardened Foes roll 2d20 and have 2 wounds.
Minions roll 1d20 and have 1 wound, but they can form a mob, which adds their dice and wounds into a big pile.

Bigger than PC hasn't been described yet.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882811You have read the Quickstart, right?

Mob of Minions (1 wound each) - Lowest form of enemy
Minions (1 wound) - Same as Mob, but at least can't be cut down enmass with a single attack.
Elites (2 wounds) - "Hardened Foe" according to the QS
PC level (5 wounds) - "Mighty Foe" according to the QS

The Panther, Chakan, and Anavenagar the Pict are Mighty Foes.  Anavenagar is the best of the best of the Picts, and you can argue he's not even that since we know for sure he's not Zogar Sag level just like the PCs aren't Conan level.

Elites are far from the Best of the Best they're basically just "not the worst there is".

The problem is if Pict warriors are Mobs of Minions, then what are sailors, street thugs, dockworkers, and other enemies?

You put Pict warriors on the bottom of your Narrative Tree of Dramatically Important Lifeforms, you have nowhere to go below that.

There's no room for Zamoran pimp with his 4 street toughs.

Street toughs would be exactly "mobs of minions". Compared to the average citizen, namely "civilian", they might as well be Picts.
You know, I assume a street tough grew up in the harsh conditions created by civilisation, and lived to become an adult by being meaner and tougher than those that found an early grave:).

Sailors are just pushed by desperation if they fight a PC. Dockworkers might count as street toughs, or sailors.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882812As a fencer do you get any personal satisfaction from beating people who never picked up a weapon before?

When I was training in an unarmed style, I was taught that the most dangerous enemy is a novice. Not the hardest, the most dangerous. Weapons don't change that, they just make it slightly harder for people to win with brawn-based tactics.
So no, I wouldn't feel it's a fencing accomplishment to beat one of those.

QuoteKinda sounds like your characters or players do. :D

Some of my characters might, indeed. Depends on what said person had done to deserve it, though:D!

You could just save yourself the time and cut and paste this every time.

Quote from: AsenRG;882803I was attacking your ideas about translating the setting into mechanics - any mechanics;).

It would save you the trouble of figuring out how to argue the opposite of anything I say about anything.

But, I get the feeling you're going to keep going, so let's try this one.

How do you feel that tiers made up of...

• Aquilonian civilians armed with weapons who somehow aren't even represented in a system.(not sure how you'd accomplish that)
• Anything in between said civilians and the "Best of the Best"
• The Best of the Best (which isn't all that great then the last tier)
• PCs (who, despite background and history are 2.5 times tougher than the Best of the Best for no other reason other than the Name Text flying above their head is White and the symbol shining next to it means "I am the Protagonist, therefore I am better!")

Models anything except a story? You actually think those classes of being would be a good way of modeling any world?

I would like to point out that minions, just like player characters, are rated with Attributes, Fields of Expertise, Stress and Soak, and have their own Talents, and that different groups of minions will have different team tactics.

Additionally, the GM's use of the Doom pool can turn a a group of minions from apparently pushovers into deadly threat to the player characters.

QuoteOriginally posted by AsenRG
Street toughs would be exactly "mobs of minions". Compared to the average citizen, namely "civilian", they might as well be Picts.
You know, I assume a street tough grew up in the harsh conditions created by civilisation, and lived to become an adult by being meaner and tougher than those that found an early grave.

Sailors are just pushed by desperation if they fight a PC. Dockworkers might count as street toughs, or sailors.

I hate to get in the middle of this argument, but AsenRG, this is completely contradictory to the source material.  It looks to me that you are just contriving arguments about relativity to twist REH's vision into something it was never meant to be so that it will fit the game.

A MAJOR theme in REH was the contrast between men who were schooled in the savage, dangerous wilderness and those who lived in the soft luxury of civilization.  Your effort to make up reasons why dockworkers should be just as dangerous as Picts amounts to re-writing Howard to fit the game rather than an explanation of how the game fits Howard.

Quote from: Jason D;883033I would like to point out that minions, just like player characters, are rated with Attributes, Fields of Expertise, Stress and Soak, and have their own Talents, and that different groups of minions will have different team tactics.

Additionally, the GM's use of the Doom pool can turn a a group of minions from apparently pushovers into deadly threat to the player characters.

Ok.  Last thing I'll say about the Minions.

1. Any system where every adventure comes down to three stages...

• You fight Mobs of Minions (some of which led by a single Elite)
• Then you maybe fight larger Mobs of Minions or perhaps groups of Elites.
• You fight the Boss Mobs

...is unsatisfactory from both a setting perspective and a story perspective.  Every mechanic is a tool, to be used in different combinations to better represent different things.  Mob of Minions as the base encounter, always, no matter the supposed type of Foe is not an interesting way to do things.

2. If you're dialing the Mob of Minions up to make the Mob tougher, why not stop a second, go back to First Principles and ask yourself: "If I need to make this Mob way tougher to accomplish what I need, why not, in this case, divorce myself from having to use Mobs and just use Elites if that will accomplish the same thing?  Must I always force every scenario into some 3 Tier rising narrative structure of escalation?

I meant that not as some rabid anti-narrative crusader tilting at my personal windmill.  I meant that as someone who's suggesting that by not locking yourself always into one specific application of mechanics, you might make a better game.  Call my suggestions "Spot Rules" if you will.

If you ever do make a scenario about Venarium, and cast the Cimmerians as Mobs of Minions, I hope you never wind up in Texas heaven, because Ol' Two-Gun Bob is going to be challenging you to boxing matches for eternity. :D

From this point, I'll post my playtest results in a playtest result thread, and my questions on the system in the questions thread.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883035...is unsatisfactory from both a setting perspective and a story perspective.  

The question I ask is: "unsatisfactory" to who?

"Unsatisfactory" is not specific. It's not measurable.

With all due respect, you've stated your preferences, but they're just one set in a vast array of tastes. Even folks as close as within this very thread are divided in their opinions.

I actually appreciate that you seem interested in what we're doing, but many of your arguments are boiling down to telling us that our vision of how gameplay should work doesn't match yours.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883035If you ever do make a scenario about Venarium, and cast the Cimmerians as Mobs of Minions, I hope you never wind up in Texas heaven, because Ol' Two-Gun Bob is going to be challenging you to boxing matches for eternity. :D

I lived in Texas hell for 13 years before moving to Berlin, so I should be all right.

Quote from: Jason D;883042I actually appreciate that you seem interested in what we're doing, but many of your arguments are boiling down to telling us that our vision of how gameplay should work doesn't match yours.

I just think variety and flexibility of application of mechanics to better achieve the goal of representing Howard's world might be more useful than keeping to the same recipe regardless of the who, what, where, and why.

If "every single adventure must start with Mobs of Minions" whether they be Zamoran Pimps or the Royal Guard of Atlantis, is a design goal you guys feel is what you want to go with, so be it.

You're probably going to say "I never said that.", but when you defend against even the possibility of ever including a scenario without Mobs of Minions, that's exactly what you're saying.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
The question I ask is: "unsatisfactory" to who?

"Unsatisfactory" is not specific. It's not measurable.

With all due respect, you've stated your preferences, but they're just one set in a vast array of tastes. Even folks as close as within this very thread are divided in their opinions.

I actually appreciate that you seem interested in what we're doing, but many of your arguments are boiling down to telling us that our vision of how gameplay should work doesn't match yours.

With complete respect, I would really like to learn about the design choices and how the system interacts with REH's stories and Hyborian age, but this seems impossible. Over and over when there is a question or criticism, we get this same response: "its all subjective and a matter of your opinion."  You say "the game does what it is supposed to do" without saying what that is.  When something seems amiss and we ask how a specific mechanic reflects REH you say "you've stated your preferences," or somebody else interjects and makes a big argument about it causing CRK to create an entirely new discussion about theory so as to not bog this conversation down.

I apologize for my moments of frustration, but I am completely over the fact that my preferred playstyle does not match the 2d20 system. I am not out to get anyone.  I just want to be able to ask simple questions how the system and REH interact - so I'll give it another shot on this same topic:

Why are Pictish savages the same level of foe as any commoner and how does that design choice reflect REH's creations?

Quote from: Madprofessor;883067With complete respect, I would really like to learn about the design choices and how the system interacts with REH's stories and Hyborian age, but this seems impossible. Over and over when there is a question or criticism, we get this same response: "its all subjective and a matter of your opinion."  You say "the game does what it is supposed to do" without saying what that is.  When something seems amiss and we ask how a specific mechanic reflects REH you say "you've stated your preferences," or somebody else interjects and makes a big argument about it causing CRK to create an entirely new discussion about theory so as to not bog this conversation down.

I apologize for my moments of frustration, but I am completely over the fact that my preferred playstyle does not match the 2d20 system. I am not out to get anyone.  I just want to be able to ask simple questions how the system and REH interact - so I'll give it another shot on this same topic:

Why are Pictish savages the same level of foe as any commoner and how does that design choice reflect REH's creations?

Actually, from the other thread, the reason is likely because he's not working on the system:

Quote from: Other 2D20 threadand the system work on 2d20 is being handled by Benn Beaton and Nathan Dowdell.

To which I will promptly apologize to Mr. Durrall, right here and now, for badgering him about something he cannot change.  And as an employee of Modiphius, I understand why he cannot agree with anything we say, should he even believe it (I don't think he does, but that does not matter), because of contractual obligations.  Hence, I will again, back out of this and any other 2D20 conversations dealing the Conan game.

Let it stand on it's own two feet.

I wonder how Asen's garden grows?

Quote from: CRKrueger;883045I just think variety and flexibility of application of mechanics to better achieve the goal of representing Howard's world might be more useful than keeping to the same recipe regardless of the who, what, where, and why.

If "every single adventure must start with Mobs of Minions" whether they be Zamoran Pimps or the Royal Guard of Atlantis, is a design goal you guys feel is what you want to go with, so be it.

You're probably going to say "I never said that.", but when you defend against even the possibility of ever including a scenario without Mobs of Minions, that's exactly what you're saying.

I am associate line manager and writer on Conan. I, too, have been with the game since it's earliest days. I'm writing sourcebooks, campaigns, and adventures.

The scenarios do not all follow a linear progression track of foes. Some classic Howard stories involve mobs that Conan hacks through, emerging heaped in gore. Others do not. The Tower of the Elephant doesn't feature a mob. Why would every Conan RPG adventure?

The mechanics are tools. You can build what you want with them. Different adventures and campaigns will have various different mixes of obstacles be they foes, traps, mysteries, or conflicting personal agendas. It won't boil down to any formula be it plot or mechanics.

Neither Jason nor I would want everything to read and play the same. Howard wrote Conan stories in a variety of hybrid genres. Since we're trying to capture Howard as closely as we can, it's only appropriate our adventures are varied as well, both in plot and in encounters.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883067With complete respect, I would really like to learn about the design choices and how the system interacts with REH's stories and Hyborian age, but this seems impossible. Over and over when there is a question or criticism, we get this same response: "its all subjective and a matter of your opinion."  You say "the game does what it is supposed to do" without saying what that is.  When something seems amiss and we ask how a specific mechanic reflects REH you say "you've stated your preferences," or somebody else interjects and makes a big argument about it causing CRK to create an entirely new discussion about theory so as to not bog this conversation down.

The mechanics are designed to translate the narrative turns of fortune found in Conan stories, and to an extent much of pulp or 30s serials, by allowing a tension and release, a win and a reversal sort of "beat" progression. Taking risks can gain you great rewards, but it also builds up bad karma coming your way.

If you look at most Conan stories, Conan goes through a series of victories and failures. He gets out of one scrape and fall into another. This continues until he is either victorious or merely gets out with his skin mostly intact.

The goal is to provide the GM AND the players with means to keep the beats of a Conan story moving along with rules to back it up. We don't expect it works in every situation. No game can hope to have the degree of pacing and plot control a prose story has and still maintain player agency. What we're trying to do is get as close to a balance as we can.

I don't know if that helps at all?

Thank you Chris Lites!

Your post certainly helps bring clarity. The amount of "storygame" / Forge language in your description of the design for Conan answers a LOT of questions about the philosophical goals behind the game.

That's a good thing.

Just not a good thing for traditional RPG players, but perhaps there is an audience who will appreciate what Modiphius is trying to achieve. There is certainly a strong interest on Kickstarter and maybe that will translate to actual players, not just backers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883045If "every single adventure must start with Mobs of Minions" whether they be Zamoran Pimps or the Royal Guard of Atlantis, is a design goal you guys feel is what you want to go with, so be it.

You're probably going to say "I never said that.", but when you defend against even the possibility of ever including a scenario without Mobs of Minions, that's exactly what you're saying.

It's always interesting when I realize that someone is arguing with some phantom standing behind me, rather than actually engaging with me and what I'm saying or have said.

Where in the world did you get the idea that every adventure begins with, or has to include, minions? Has any member of the design team said any such thing? I know I haven't.

I'm looking at adventures where there aren't any, and even one where there's only a single, dedicated and powerful enemy.

Here's the excerpt on how the quickstart handles the Pict groups:

QuoteMinions: Pictish Warriors are defeated after one
Wound or Trauma. It's up to the gamemaster if this
means they're dead, playing dead, cowering, fleeing,
or unconscious. They only roll 1d20 each for skill
tests normally.
Mob: The gamemaster may decide that a group of two
or more minions are acting as a mob: they will take a
single turn for the group, rather than a turn for each
minion. When the mob acts, it rolls 1d20 per member
for the skill test. When attacked, the mob counts as
a single target, and each time a member of the mob
is taken out, any remaining damage carries on to the
next member of the mob; continue until there is no
more excess damage, or there is no more mob.

Minion rules are one method of handling combats with large groups. The GM is in no way required to use minion rules, and nowhere in the core rulebook does it say that.  

Furthermore, not all minions are alike. One group of minions might have higher Fields of Expertise, Stress, and Soak. They might have additional levels of Harm, better armor, and thus be more formidable.

Quote from: Jason D;883033I would like to point out that minions, just like player characters, are rated with Attributes, Fields of Expertise, Stress and Soak, and have their own Talents, and that different groups of minions will have different team tactics.

Additionally, the GM's use of the Doom pool can turn a a group of minions from apparently pushovers into deadly threat to the player characters.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883067Why are Pictish savages the same level of foe as any commoner and how does that design choice reflect REH's creations?

In "Beyond the Black River", REH had a relatively-green woodsman with no apparent experience battling Picts (prior to the events of that story), fighting alongside an injured dog, account for more than nine Pict savages on the warpath, before falling in battle.

Quote from: Jason D;883224It's always interesting when I realize that someone is arguing with some phantom standing behind me, rather than actually engaging with me and what I'm saying or have said.

Where in the world did you get the idea that every adventure begins with, or has to include, minions? Has any member of the design team said any such thing? I know I haven't.

I'm looking at adventures where there aren't any, and even one where there's only a single, dedicated and powerful enemy.

Here's the excerpt on how the quickstart handles the Pict groups:



Minion rules are one method of handling combats with large groups. The GM is in no way required to use minion rules, and nowhere in the core rulebook does it say that.  

Furthermore, not all minions are alike. One group of minions might have higher Fields of Expertise, Stress, and Soak. They might have additional levels of Harm, better armor, and thus be more formidable.

Thanks, that's what I was curious about.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;883084To which I will promptly apologize to Mr. Durrall, right here and now, for badgering him about something he cannot change.  And as an employee of Modiphius, I understand why he cannot agree with anything we say, should he even believe it (I don't think he does, but that does not matter), because of contractual obligations.  Hence, I will again, back out of this and any other 2D20 conversations dealing the Conan game.

Let it stand on it's own two feet.

Umm... thanks, I guess?

At no point in my discussions with Modiphius was I informed that I needed to toe some company line or parrot an official stance, so I'm not sure how to take an apology that also accuses me of withholding the truth.

I've worked on crunchy games (my day job is in MMO system design, which is a magnitude more detailed than any tabletop pen-and-paper game system), and I've worked on a couple of diceless games, as well as writing for the whole spectrum.

When I began working with the 2d20 system, I had concerns that it was actually too crunchy, but in the course of actually demo-ing the game and playing it, I've been relieved to see that it plays well and is easy to teach. Table-full after table-full of players in my experience have come in skeptical and left convinced that it was a fun system, easy to grasp, and excellent in enabling rapid, pulpy action.

I get that it's not to everyone's tastes, but honestly, the range of opinions expressed in this very thread indicate that there is no consensus on the one true way to game in the Hyborian Age setting.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
When I began working with the 2d20 system, I had concerns that it was actually too crunchy, but in the course of actually demo-ing the game and playing it, I've been relieved to see that it plays well and is easy to teach.

I agree that the game seems a lot crunchier in the reading than it does in play.  Weapon effects are little crunchy but they are entirely appropriate for milieu.  Doom and momentum are uncomfortable for my groups' playstyles, and perhaps a little fiddly overall because they are constantly in use - but they're not crunchy.  My veteran group has put the game as we have seen it thus far in the "squishy" category.  

QuoteIn "Beyond the Black River", REH had a relatively-green woodsman with no apparent experience battling Picts (prior to the events of that story), fighting alongside an injured dog, account for more than nine Pict savages on the warpath, before falling in battle.

I'll stop this line of questioning, but I partially disagree with this approach to interpreting the story and REH's story telling.  The fear and danger that the Picts pose is heart pounding and palpable in Howard's writing, you can't get players to feel that with mechanically gimped Picts, or at least I couldn't.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883261I'll stop this line of questioning, but I partially disagree with this approach to interpreting the story and REH's story telling.  The fear and danger that the Picts pose is heart pounding and palpable in Howard's writing, you can't get players to feel that with mechanically gimped Picts, or at least I couldn't.

I'm not telling anyone they need to drop any line of questioning.

Since the quickstart was explicitly designed to be approachable for new GMs and players, handing a massive combat with up to 15 combatants (and more for the 2nd farmhouse encounter) seemed to be a bit much to ask.  

Some GMs really thrive on combats that take hours to resolve, but for us, that's the very antithesis of fast-paced, pulp adventure.

We have also had GMs report that the adventure was a meatgrinder, almost resulting in TPKs, so apparently, one size does not fit all.

In the unlikely event you pick up the game and want to give it a try, there's nothing stopping you from using the writeup for individual Picts and ignoring the mob and minion rules entirely. Published adventures will likely make use of these rules when appropriate, but it should require no effort whatsoever to alter these encounters to suit the GM's individual taste.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883261I'll stop this line of questioning, but I partially disagree with this approach to interpreting the story and REH's story telling.  The fear and danger that the Picts pose is heart pounding and palpable in Howard's writing, you can't get players to feel that with mechanically gimped Picts, or at least I couldn't.

What it comes down to Professor is that we're at the "only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", yet it takes 3 movies for them to even hit a protagonist point.

There's no doubt that making savages and barbarians "Mooks" runs counter to Howard's theme of the Barbarian vs. Civilized men.  It's also true that Howard gave Balthus protagonist status to tell a good tale.

Laws of the Setting vs. Laws of the Tale.  It's just something you have to deal with when you take a RPG into genre-modeling territory whether that be 007, Star Wars, or Conan.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason D
Since the quickstart was explicitly designed to be approachable for new GMs and players, handing a massive combat with up to 15 combatants (and more for the 2nd farmhouse encounter) seemed to be a bit much to ask.

Some GMs really thrive on combats that take hours to resolve, but for us, that's the very antithesis of fast-paced, pulp adventure.

Thanks for this very fair and reasonable explanation.:) I get it.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
We have also had GMs report that the adventure was a meatgrinder, almost resulting in TPKs, so apparently, one size does not fit all.

I am a little surprised at this.  Of course, my biggest criticism from players is that as a GM is that I am a bit of a softy and I root for the PCs too much.  Looking back, I probably pulled some punches in my playtest that I shouldn't have.

QuoteOriginally Posted by CRKrueger
"only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise"

Perfect Analogy!

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
In the unlikely event you pick up the game and want to give it a try, there's nothing stopping you from using the writeup for individual Picts and ignoring the mob and minion rules entirely. Published adventures will likely make use of these rules when appropriate, but it should require no effort whatsoever to alter these encounters to suit the GM's individual taste.

I know some of my posts have come across as antagonistic, and you sometimes seem to think that I am in attack mode, or have me pegged as a rabid simulationist or something, but I really am just trying wrap my head around the game.  It's not comfortable to unlearn a lifetime of play, and many people here would say it's foolish to try.

Regardless, I likely will pick up all of the books (I don't like PDFs) and give the game a real try.  I am skeptical that it will ever become my serious RPG system of choice, but it might make a great change of pace, and I will at least enjoy the writing and the art.

I'm pretty much only interested in the setting and art stuff.  I own more than one system that I think will do a fine job of handling Conan.  I get that system-less books typically don't sell well and having a wife who is a graphic designer I get that extra layout isn't totally free, but is there any chance of a pdf with just the setting and art bits?

I recall someone else asked for this as well, but I didn't see an answer, so my apologies if I missed it.

Quote from: Brander;883295I'm pretty much only interested in the setting and art stuff.  I own more than one system that I think will do a fine job of handling Conan.  I get that system-less books typically don't sell well and having a wife who is a graphic designer I get that extra layout isn't totally free, but is there any chance of a pdf with just the setting and art bits?

I recall someone else asked for this as well, but I didn't see an answer, so my apologies if I missed it.

There are no plans for a systemless version of the game.

Quote from: One Horse Town;883086I wonder how Asen's garden grows?

I work on my own garden, as I should.
No, there's no weeds in it.
...or in other words, WTF does that have to do with the conversation.

Quote from: Jason D;883228I get that it's not to everyone's tastes, but honestly, the range of opinions expressed in this very thread indicate that there is no consensus on the one true way to game in the Hyborian Age setting.

There's only 2 ways that I know of to have a one true way to game in a given setting.
First, make the setting so tightly interwoven with the system that there's no difference.
Second, take a setting whose only fan is you, and play in it;). Obviously not the case with Hyboria.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883032You could just save yourself the time and cut and paste this every time.
It would save you the trouble of figuring out how to argue the opposite of anything I say about anything.

Read again, CRK. I am attacking your opinion on how to translate the Hyborian setting, not any setting:).

QuoteBut, I get the feeling you're going to keep going, so let's try this one.

There was a delay due to work, sleep and hobby time. But I try not to disappoint people:D!

QuoteHow do you feel that tiers made up of...
(snipped)
Models anything except a story?

Easy. Let me address the tiers one by one. Fun fact: the lowest tier requires the most granularity, because there's so little skill in participants, even slight differences make a big difference.

Quote

• Aquilonian civilians armed with weapons who somehow aren't even represented in a system.(not sure how you'd accomplish that)

Easy. If they get attacked, and don't have proper motivation and time to prepare, I make a check. Should they fail, they scatter and some might get overrun in the chase - even if they had better skills. Should they fail badly, they freeze and it gets tough.
Done. Psychology matters more than skill and attributes, and this approach (which I devised for Fates Worse Than Death, where RBSD stuff is king) actually reflects that.
Should they succeed, they get to fight as Mob of Minions. It's likely they'd still have lower Skill than a Pict, on account of experience, and definitely have lower Attributes (on account of the Pict having a harder life). But it might actually be civilian fencers which would have higher skill, lower attributes, and would still have no use for their skill unless they pass the Morale/Willpower test.

Picts, pirates, streetfighters, average mercenaries and trained recruits wouldn't need to pass that check to initiate hostilities or to return them. That, in itself, is obviously a tremendous advantage.
To differentiate between them, you'd have just small stuff - Attributes, Skills and the like...which is exactly how you'd differentiate between them when running RQ6/Mythras:D!

Quote

• Anything in between said civilians and the "Best of the Best"

Minions, in 2d20, seem to be a good fit. Picts of above average ability would be that, as would be Aquilonian Knights, green Spartan troops and experienced mercenaries. Look again: those can fight a unit by themselves (though they're likely to lose).

Quote

• The Best of the Best (which isn't all that great then the last tier)

Elites, right? Elites.
Mercenaries with extensive experience, famous Pictish warriors, average Spartans.

• PCs (who, despite background and history are 2.5 times tougher than the Best of the Best for no other reason other than the Name Text flying above their head is White and the symbol shining next to it means "I am the Protagonist, therefore I am better!")

And PC-level NPCs, I guess.
These are just people with a knack for violence, and on whom the gods smiled. No contradiction there.

QuoteYou actually think those classes of being would be a good way of modeling any world?

The world we live in is perfectly easy to express in those terms - see the first tier: that's what happens most of the time.
Of course, reality is both more and less granular than RPG systems, so no system is a perfect fit.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883034I hate to get in the middle of this argument, but AsenRG, this is completely contradictory to the source material.  It looks to me that you are just contriving arguments about relativity to twist REH's vision into something it was never meant to be so that it will fit the game.

Shrug. I really can't do anything for your perception, Madprofessor. I can only tell you that I have no interest in doing that.

QuoteA MAJOR theme in REH was the contrast between men who were schooled in the savage, dangerous wilderness and those who lived in the soft luxury of civilization.  Your effort to make up reasons why dockworkers should be just as dangerous as Picts amounts to re-writing Howard to fit the game rather than an explanation of how the game fits Howard.

Ask yourself, how would you express the difference between Picts and Aquilonian civilians in a game with only one kind of enemies. Then ask yourself whether you don't have those tools in 2d20...
Having those tools, and "tiers of being used to violence" can't really hurt the characterization, methinks;).

Quote from: Jason D;883306There are no plans for a systemless version of the game.

Well, now, that officially sucks!

Quote from: AsenRG;883352Well, now, that officially sucks!

It's no different than any other game really, if it was systemless, it wouldn't even be a game, it would just be a supplement of the Hyborian world. They might not even have a license to do that.

I'm not using SIFRP for Westeros, but I buy the stuff anyway, it's a "license tax".  They paid for the license so they get to charge me extra for rules I won't use. :D

Of course, according to the shotgunless one, I'm really just luring Modiphius in with a false sense of security, before I reveal I'm really the secret majority stockholder in CPI and I'm pulling the license because they didn't do it in RQ6. :pundit:

'Cause, you know, I'm not known for just telling people to go fuck themselves and their mother if I don't like them or anything.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883357It's no different than any other game really, if it was systemless, it wouldn't even be a game, it would just be a supplement of the Hyborian world.

Tekumel has systemless sourcebooks. They're still for a game, but I love them as books.
Really, REH wrote his essay on The Hyborian World in a form much like what I'd want of a systemless supplement.

Besides, it is what many people here seemed to want. I would have considered going for physical book pledge on that, too:).
I restrict the RPG books in my library...so I'd have more space for books, especially non-fiction;).

QuoteThey might not even have a license to do that.

Too bad if that's the case.
But even if it's the case, I still don't have to like it. I just get to think it's their lawyers' fault;).

QuoteI'm not using SIFRP for Westeros, but I buy the stuff anyway, it's a "license tax".  They paid for the license so they get to charge me extra for rules I won't use. :D

I know you're joking, but I didn't say they can't include the license tax in the price of a systemless supplement, did I?

QuoteOf course, according to the shotgunless one, I'm really just luring Modiphius in with a false sense of security, before I reveal I'm really the secret majority stockholder in CPI and I'm pulling the license because they didn't do it in RQ6. :pundit:

Well, are you:p?

Quote'Cause, you know, I'm not known for just telling people to go fuck themselves and their mother if I don't like them or anything.

You? Who would think you could possibly say something like that?
I mean, it could hurt someone's feelings:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;883352I work on my own garden, as I should.
No, there's no weeds in it.
...or in other words, WTF does that have to do with the conversation.

I believe it was meant as an indirect means of describing you as (quite) contrarian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_Mary%2C_Quite_Contrary

Quote from: CRKrueger;883357I'm not using SIFRP for Westeros, but I buy the stuff anyway, it's a "license tax".  They paid for the license so they get to charge me extra for rules I won't use. :D

Tangent. How do they perform as setting sources?

Quote from: The Butcher;883401Tangent. How do they perform as setting sources?

If you want to play a Song of Ice and Fire game but don't want to use SIFR, I strongly advise that you get the SIFR Campaign Guide, it contains a lot of setting info but very little system info, so it's perfect if you want to run a game using a different system. In fact, I wish Modiphius had taken the same approach (one corebook with the rules, and another one with the setting info) that Green Ronin took with SIFR.

Quote from: The Butcher;883401Tangent. How do they perform as setting sources?

Very good.  Everything is cleared (which is why it takes forever), but combine those with the Atlas, you've got some awesome campaign tools.

I really feel bad for GR, they put out two of the best new systems, but because of IP approval, they moved at such a glacial pace they were never able to get much momentum.  

People who like narrative systems like Fate or 2d20 but not all the metapoint back and forth? SIFRP/Chronicles might be your system, but who knows about it?

People who want Fast, Furious and Fun, without the weight of Savage Worlds and Bennie Economies, or Barbarians of Lemuria with a little bit of meat on the bones?  Dragon Age/AGE might fit your bill.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883432(...) Barbarians of Lemuria with a little bit of meat on the bones?  Dragon Age/AGE might fit your bill.

Just curious, what is your opinion on BoL? In your opinion, could it be used to run a half-decent Conan game?

Quote from: nDervish;883398I believe it was meant as an indirect means of describing you as (quite) contrarian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_Mary%2C_Quite_Contrary

Ah, thanks - no way I could understand that, as this isn't a nursery rhyme I've ever heard:).
And to this, I still prefer to answer "everyone should care about his own garden";).

Quote from: CRKrueger;883432Very good.  Everything is cleared (which is why it takes forever), but combine those with the Atlas, you've got some awesome campaign tools.

I really feel bad for GR, they put out two of the best new systems, but because of IP approval, they moved at such a glacial pace they were never able to get much momentum.  

People who like narrative systems like Fate or 2d20 but not all the metapoint back and forth? SIFRP/Chronicles might be your system, but who knows about it?

People who want Fast, Furious and Fun, without the weight of Savage Worlds and Bennie Economies, or Barbarians of Lemuria with a little bit of meat on the bones?  Dragon Age/AGE might fit your bill.

I'm not sure I like SIFRP. It might be because the GM I tested it with had an issue, I believe, with the very idea of narrative systems. Worse, he didn't want to admit it.

But Fantasy Age is indeed an unpolished gem. If only the huge number of HP didn't make fights last forever - which is my personal gripe!

Quote from: 3rik;883466Just curious, what is your opinion on BoL? In your opinion, could it be used to run a half-decent Conan game?

Half-decent? No. It has to be a decent one with BoL, or you're using it wrong!
In other words, it's probably the best lightweight non-narrative system for S&S that I know of. And I happen to know quite a few, believe me:D!
The best lightweight narrative one is On Mighty Thews, if you're wondering;).

Quote from: 3rik;883466Just curious, what is your opinion on BoL? In your opinion, could it be used to run a half-decent Conan game?

It could be used to run an excellent Conan game, it's really the only game out there that actually expresses Conan's leveling technique - Barbarian, Thief, Mercenary, Pirate, Soldier, Brigand, Scout, General, King, etc. but for it to work for you'd have to...

• Accept the rules are pretty light.
• Accept you're not going to get much variation in weapons/armor unless you use Traits/Flaws (which can be problematic as Howard has lots of specific weapons he calls out by name and describes).
• Just accept there's a little genre awareness and narrative aspect to the rules.
• Reskin the Lemurian/generic S&S trappings to appropriate Hyborian Age counterparts.

For me at least,
1. is no problem, just doesn't hit my preferred crunch level.
2. I would probably find a way to make work, even if I hacked the system a bit.
3. This would be my sticking point, but I would just wipe out all those options from the rules and grit my teeth and bear it reading the text.
4. Would be fun.

Once I had decided that Mongoose d20 wasn't going to do it for me, (Class/Level/Feats no matter how well done, was still Class/Level/Feats) BoL was one of the games I was looking at.

In an alternate universe without MRQII/RQ6/Mythras, I might have picked it.

I really like BoL for S&S, but I haven't used it for anything Hyboria-based.

I'm not all that fond of Savage Worlds and RQ6 is too crunchy to my taste but a BRP/CoC-compatible Conan RPG would've been perfect. Alas, I do not like 2d20 much.

QuoteOriginally Posted by 3rik View Post
Just curious, what is your opinion on BoL? In your opinion, could it be used to run a half-decent Conan game?

I played a lot of BoL.  Excellent game.  I agree with what Krueger and Asen wrote above, but will add that I think BoL is best for highly cinematic games.  It would work well for comic book style Conan, but less well for a grittier feel.  You can tone the heroics in BoL down easily by giving fewer hero points, but it is still a very fast and light game and I think the speed of play contributes to the cinematic feel.

Quote from: 3rik;883480I really like BoL for S&S, but I haven't used it for anything Hyboria-based.

I'm not all that fond of Savage Worlds and RQ6 is too crunchy to my taste but a BRP/CoC-compatible Conan RPG would've been perfect. Alas, I do not like 2d20 much.

http://www.strangestones.com/downloads/
There's some good short hyborian age adventures for BOL at the link above. And some other Lieber/Lovecraft inspired adventures easily apapted to a huborian age campaign. I've used most of it.

Quote from: Claudius;883409If you want to play a Song of Ice and Fire game but don't want to use SIFR, I strongly advise that you get the SIFR Campaign Guide, it contains a lot of setting info but very little system info, so it's perfect if you want to run a game using a different system. In fact, I wish Modiphius had taken the same approach (one corebook with the rules, and another one with the setting info) that Green Ronin took with SIFR.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883432Very good.  Everything is cleared (which is why it takes forever), but combine those with the Atlas, you've got some awesome campaign tools.

Thanks, gents. Does either of you own the A World of Ice and Fire tome? And if so, is there anything in the SIFR Campaign Guide that isn't in the big ass book?

Quote from: CRKrueger;883432People who want Fast, Furious and Fun, without the weight of Savage Worlds and Bennie Economies, or Barbarians of Lemuria with a little bit of meat on the bones?  Dragon Age/AGE might fit your bill.

Now there's an intriguing comment. What's the skinny on AGE system? And how come it's not in your Hyborian Age gaming poll?

Quote from: The Butcher;883541Thanks, gents. Does either of you own the A World of Ice and Fire tome? And if so, is there anything in the SIFR Campaign Guide that isn't in the big ass book?



Now there's an intriguing comment. What's the skinny on AGE system? And how come it's not in your Hyborian Age gaming poll?

There is a Conan-Dragon Age conversion
https://dragonageoracle.wordpress.com/2011/09/20/beyond-dragon-age-age-of-conan/

Quote from: The Butcher;883541Thanks, gents. Does either of you own the A World of Ice and Fire tome? And if so, is there anything in the SIFR Campaign Guide that isn't in the big ass book?

I don't have that, so can't answer.

Quote from: The Butcher;883541Now there's an intriguing comment. What's the skinny on AGE system? And how come it's not in your Hyborian Age gaming poll?

I just threw things up there I knew people had used or most likely would, but I forgot a couple obvious ones.

Why not AGE?  None aside from above.  Thinking about it now, here would be the Pros and Cons as I see it of doing Conan with AGE.

Pros

• The Background system (background being a combination of race, culture, and maybe apprenticeship) is light and easy.  Come up with, say Zamoran Slaver or Aquilonian Heavy Infantry or Nemedian Commoner, give it a short list of Attributes, Focuses, Talents, Equipment whatever the character could have.  During chargen you'll roll to see what you actually get.  Simple yet flexible enough to model pretty much anything in any setting, but at not too close a zoom.
• Resolution system - You roll three dice, one of them a different color, the Dragon Die (Stunt Die really).  If any of the three dice come up doubles, you get a Stunt Level equal to the Stunt Die that you can use to power different effects, whether you're chopping, shooting, climbing, or arguing.  There's no narrative control of the type "I swing so well on the attack, city guards show up to help me", it's all pretty associated IIRC.
• You have attributes and a bunch of skills tied to an attribute that anyone can do.  Focus means you're actually better at one of the skills.  More advanced skill that require training or lots of experience are Talents, broken up into three ranks from Novice to Master.  So you can add/chop/mutilate as many skills or Talents as you like without really breaking anything.
• Classes have specializations, so you can branch out, like the Video Game itself, or Warhammer/Shadow of the Demon Lord/Prestige Classes.
• Weapons and armor have enough differentiation to span the Conan works, and you have different Talent groups like Long Blades, Short Blades, Spears, Staves, etc, so you can't be a sword master then bust the same amount of ass with a flail.

Cons

• Class system.  Warrior, Rogue, and Mage, with Warriors generally being more tank-like and Melee and Rogues generally being more maneuverable and Ranged.  Conan of course was tanky when he put on armor and thiefy when he didn't, so you'd have some work to do there.
• Magic. Everything was made to model Dragon Age, which is not the Hyborian Age as far as magic goes, so this would need a complete rewrite.
• The Dragon Die is very wild.  I can barely succeed with 2 1's and a 6 but because the Dragon Die was 6 I do great, or I can roll awesome with 2 6's and a 1, but because the Dragon Die was a 1, it's the lowest effect I can trigger.  In other words, level of Stunt is divorced from the level of number you actually rolled.  Easily hacked though by eliminating the special nature of the Dragon Die, having the level of the doubles determine level of Stunt and add one to the Stunt result if it's a triple.

I'll have to take a look at that Age of Conan hack.

QuoteMagic. Everything was made to model Dragon Age, which is not the Hyborian Age as far as magic goes, so this would need a complete rewrite.

Most systems do not handle Hyborian sorcery well.  When hacking a system for the Hyborian Age magic is usually the biggest problem, especially if you allow player sorcerers - in my experience.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883645Most systems do not handle Hyborian sorcery well.  When hacking a system for the Hyborian Age magic is usually the biggest problem, especially if you allow player sorcerers - in my experience.

43 AD handles it just fine. So does BoL.
Really, the more involved the magic system gets, the farther away you're likely to get from Conan,  IMO.

I'm still on the fence if I will back this KS or not.
If I do it, it will be for the setting/background/adventures, but not for the system.
I also backed Mutant Chronicles, and although the books are great I'm just not too fond of 2d20. We played the Quick Start for MC and my players didn't like the Dark Symmetry rules. They were like: we don't improve stuff, you don't get to spend (as much) Dark Symmetry points and things are even...

I think the system still played quite nicely, but not more than that (and the whole Dark Symmetry stuff, or Doom pool in Conan I believe, was more or less scrapped due to the fact that my players didn't go along for it).

2d20 is certainly not the selling point IMO regarding this Conan KS. I guess I'll play the adventure from the Quickstart soon enough with my players, but we'll use another system (not Rolemaster, although I might be tempted...). Something more akin to DND this time.

QuoteOriginally Posted by AsenRG
43 AD handles it just fine. So does BoL.

I am not familiar wit 43 AD, I'll have to check that out.  BoL magic has some great flavor, but it asks a lot of players and GMs alike.  Its potentially a great magic system for the Hyborian Age, but it can also easily get out of hand - speaking from personal experience - that's not a fault of the game though.

QuoteReally, the more involved the magic system gets, the farther away you're likely to get from Conan, IMO.

As a general principal I would agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by Vonn
I'm still on the fence if I will back this KS or not.
If I do it, it will be for the setting/background/adventures, but not for the system.

I am with you.  The 2d20 system is far from ideal for me as well.  Still, after 2 weeks of debating, ranting and generally upsetting people, I think I will back the project, for "setting/background,adventures" primarily, but I think I'll give the system a 2nd try as well.  If nothing else, it might make a decent change of pace kind of game.

By the way, nice icon.

Yeah it's definitely going to be at least the all-pdf level, maybe the pdfs+Core Rules hardbound or PDFs+Hardbound+"three hardbounds supplements of your choice".  From what I've seen so far of the adventures, spells, monsters, etc. Modiphius will make a great Conan game.  

It won't be a game that fits our needs for a regular, long-term, roleplaying campaign, but since a lot of the adventures it seems will be roughly during the adventuring life of Conan, my group has been talking about just doing the published adventures kind of like the conceit of the One Ring/LotRO.  Conan we all know is doing X, what's everyone else doing?  

Since my campaign is set post-Hour of the Dragon, these episodes will serve as history of my campaign, just like Howard's own stories are.  One of my players already wants to make up a young clanswoman related to Maeve who wants to leave, inspired by the tales of her relative who made the Stand at Thunder River.

Depending on how the Monolith game is, our Conan gaming might be a three-pronged attack.

Quote from: Vonn;883813(...) I guess I'll play the adventure from the Quickstart soon enough with my players, but we'll use another system (not Rolemaster, although I might be tempted...). Something more akin to DND this time.

I've been reading good things about D101 Games' Crypts & Things, a new edition  of which is currently being workd on. I'll likely pick that up just to see how it handles S&S stuff.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883817I am with you.  The 2d20 system is far from ideal for me as well.  Still, after 2 weeks of debating, ranting and generally upsetting people, I think I will back the project, for "setting/background,adventures" primarily, but I think I'll give the system a 2nd try as well.  If nothing else, it might make a decent change of pace kind of game.

I made up my mind...I'm gonna back the project: PDFs + core book in print.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883817By the way, nice icon.

Thanks!

Quote from: CRKrueger;883820Modiphius will make a great Conan game.

Exactly!

Quote from: 3rik;883830I've been reading good things about D101 Games' Crypts & Things, a new edition  of which is currently being workd on. I'll likely pick that up just to see how it handles S&S stuff.

Hmm, don't know it...any ideas how it's different from (for example) Runequest 6?

QuoteOriginally Posted by Vonn
Hmm, don't know it...any ideas how it's different from (for example) Runequest 6?

Crypts and things is an excellent hack of Swords and Wizardry/OD&D for swords and sorcery style games.  It's old school D&D hacked for the Hyborian Age with the REH Trademarks and serial numbers filed off. It's very different from RQ6 (classes/levels etc).  If you want Conan with D&D - this is it!

Quote from: Madprofessor;883843Crypts and things is an excellent hack of Swords and Wizardry/OD&D for swords and sorcery style games.  It's old school D&D hacked for the Hyborian Age with the REH Trademarks and serial numbers filed off. It's very different from RQ6 (classes/levels etc).  If you want Conan with D&D - this is it!

Yeah, I wanted to edit my post after reading some reviews. I saw D101 as publisher and automatically assumed it was some OpenQuest S&S supplement, but it's "D&D and Conan" indeed! :cool:

@3rik: now I understand why you made this reference...duh...:o

Quote from: Madprofessor;883816I am not familiar wit 43 AD, I'll have to check that out.

I'm almost sure you'd find it interesting;).

QuoteAs a general principal I would agree.

Cool, we agree on the important parts:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;883820Yeah it's definitely going to be at least the all-pdf level, maybe the pdfs+Core Rules hardbound or PDFs+Hardbound+"three hardbounds supplements of your choice".  From what I've seen so far of the adventures, spells, monsters, etc. Modiphius will make a great Conan game.  

It won't be a game that fits our needs for a regular, long-term, roleplaying campaign, but since a lot of the adventures it seems will be roughly during the adventuring life of Conan, my group has been talking about just doing the published adventures kind of like the conceit of the One Ring/LotRO.  Conan we all know is doing X, what's everyone else doing?  

Since my campaign is set post-Hour of the Dragon, these episodes will serve as history of my campaign, just like Howard's own stories are.  One of my players already wants to make up a young clanswoman related to Maeve who wants to leave, inspired by the tales of her relative who made the Stand at Thunder River.

Depending on how the Monolith game is, our Conan gaming might be a three-pronged attack.

Sounds great, would you remind me whether you're posting an Actual Play account somewhere?

Quote from: AsenRG;883857Sounds great, would you remind me whether you're posting an Actual Play account somewhere?

I posted one here on the site (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=34079) a few days ago.  It's not roll-by-roll though.

Quote from: Vonn;883848Yeah, I wanted to edit my post after reading some reviews. I saw D101 as publisher and automatically assumed it was some OpenQuest S&S supplement, but it's "D&D and Conan" indeed! :cool:

@3rik: now I understand why you made this reference...duh...:o

They did do a Conan-with-the-serial-numbers-barely-filed-off supplement for OpenQuest, titled The Savage North. It's just a setting, though. There's no rules adaptations to make it more S&S than generic OpenQuest IIRC.

Generally speaking, with D101 Games, you don't get anything that looks particularly flashy, but it usually works like a charm. Hence my trust in Crypts & Things delivering what it claims to do.

Quote from: 3rik;883880They did do a Conan-with-the-serial-numbers-barely-filed-off supplement for OpenQuest, titled The Savage North. It's just a setting, though. There's no rules adaptations to make it more S&S than generic OpenQuest IIRC.

Generally speaking, with D101 Games, you don't get anything that looks particularly flashy, but it usually works like a charm. Hence my trust in Crypts & Things delivering what it claims to do.

How is it as a supplement?

Quote from: CRKrueger;883870I posted one here on the site (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=34079) a few days ago.  It's not roll-by-roll though.

Thanks, I've missed it. Roll-by-roll is not required.
Well, it might have been nice, but from experience, it's also much more work.

Quote from: AsenRG;883893Thanks, I've missed it. Roll-by-roll is not required.
Well, it might have been nice, but from experience, it's also much more work.

I didn't want to slow the game down by writing stuff down, and I didn't want to record the session on media for a number of reasons, but I remember some key rolls and list them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883898I didn't want to slow the game down by writing stuff down, and I didn't want to record the session on media for a number of reasons, but I remember some key rolls and list them.

That's really not important. I can recover what happened, more or less, to the degree that this is necessary:).
But the point of my question was about your Runequest sessions;).

You guys might get a kick out of this.  Someone went and did up a short little gameplay summary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLuT69I1dE), using Age of Conan for the graphics.  Not sure in a couple parts why he didn't just play video instead of move a static graphic around (like with Kalanthes approaching Tina), and he doesn't explain *why* some things work, but it's still fun.

Hey Spinach, since you're talking about looking at this as more of a "boardgame night" game, they're coming out with a crossover product with Monolith's Miniatures game.  It's going to have a 2d20 adventure with Conan and Belit, and will include combat scenarios for the Monolith game.

So it's like one of those transmedia events that you can experience from one side, the other, or both.

Man, with the Monolith game being miniatures combat, the Modiphius game being so heavily and purposely focused on the storytelling headspace, there sure is a vacuum here (and most importantly, money to spend) that a traditional RPG to fill in to make this a Conan trifecta.

Quote from: CRKrueger;884432So it's like one of those transmedia events that you can experience from one side, the other, or both.

I gotta give Modiphius major kudos on their Kickstarter marketing.

I am debating the boardgame add-ons. The new maps look very good.

I'm simply impressed on how easily we gamers are swayed by promises.

QuoteOriginally Posted by CRKrueger
Man, with the Monolith game being miniatures combat, the Modiphius game being so heavily and purposely focused on the storytelling headspace, there sure is a vacuum here (and most importantly, money to spend) that a traditional RPG to fill in to make this a Conan trifecta.

That's what I have been saying.  I can't understand Modiphius' business model, unless they have some narrative theory chip on their shoulder.  There is a clear gap here in their marketing.  Why wouldn't they want to create a product to capture the traditional market?  It doesn't make business sense.

Quote from: Madprofessor;884665That's what I have been saying.  I can't understand Modiphius' business model, unless they have some narrative theory chip on their shoulder.  There is a clear gap here in their marketing.  Why wouldn't they want to create a product to capture the traditional market?  It doesn't make business sense.

Please define what you mean by "the traditional market."

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
Please define what you mean by "the traditional market."

I just meant the people who play and prefer traditional style RPGs - immersionists, simmulationists, grognards, old school, whatever - I perhaps don't have the right label.  Ya know, RPGs where players play their character and the GM controls the world.  D&D, BRP, GURPS, RQ, BoL, are a good examples - there are many others.

I don't know if there are any studies out there, but I think a significant portion of the RPG market is uninterested in a game built around metagame mechanics or storygame mechanics which the 2d20 system is full of.  Like Kruger said - we now have a boardgame, we are getting a storygame, the only thing we are lacking is an RPG.  Maybe those categories are too black and white, that there is some crossovers in each, but if you look around the internet a bit (and I am sure you have) there are significant numbers of people who are unhappy with the 2d20 system.  That doesn't mean its a bad system - that means there are groups that it doesn't work for.  Look back across this thread.  Look at Modiphius' own forum, look on purple, or enworld, many people want a traditional style Conan RPG.

These aren't just vocal assholes.  They are just traditional RPG gamers who have been praying for a Conan game that have been left out.

- and, I believe they have money too.  WotC chose to target this group with 5e for a reason.

Please look at the "your preferred Conan RPG" thread on this site.  The votes, overwhelmingly are for a traditional style game .

Quotea part of me would love to see a dedicated BRP Conan book

You are not alone.  There are lots of people who would gladly pay for something along that line - I certainly would.

Madprofessor, why are you still talking about the system?  It's been done for at least a year. Mr. Durrall has no control, as is apparent form his answers.  He can't refute anything, because there's nothing that can be done.  Either accept it, or move on.

All we can do is vote with our wallet when they come out with the supplement mill.  We can't with the KS, because there's no product, people paid for a promise, and we CANNOT judge that as a success.  Because there's nothing to judge.

Here's what LIKELY MAY have happened.  Some dood trawling the Kickstarter site looking for an RPG to back.  Sees Conan, turns out he's a fan of the shitty Arnold movies, or even the pastiche or the real stories, sees the system, doesn't know anything about it, decides to put money down on it.

Done.  Doesn't care about the system simply because there's nothing TO care about, all he sees is CONAN OF CIMMERIA!  He tells his friends, and convinces then to back it too.  That's probably what sold a lot of people on the game.

And they're thinking about the setting, not the rules that actually make or break the game.

But the publishers will ALWAYS cite the money they got as a 'victory' and give the impression that they've made a successful product.  But they haven't.  They just hooked people on a promise, nothing more.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Christopher Brady
Madprofessor, why are you still talking about the system? It's been done for at least a year. Mr. Durrall has no control, as is apparent form his answers. He can't refute anything, because there's nothing that can be done. Either accept it, or move on.

He did ask a question, but... your point is taken.  I gave it my best shot.  Moving on now.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884645I'm simply impressed on how easily we gamers are swayed by promises.

I am unsure what you mean by promises?

What is Modiphius promising that you doubt they will deliver?

They have laid out the system in the Quickstart so there won't be any major surprises there, and they certainly have a solid history of delivering product.

Whether or not that product is to my taste or your taste may be questionable, but Modiphius certainly does put books in mailboxes.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884865All we can do is vote with our wallet when they come out with the supplement mill.  We can't with the KS, because there's no product, people paid for a promise, and we CANNOT judge that as a success.  Because there's nothing to judge.

Did you see the Quickstart? There's PLENTY to judge.

You absolutely can vote with the KS. Either back it or do not. If you back the KS, that's a "Vote For" and if you don't back it and don't buy it in the future, that's effectively a "Vote Against"

As with every other product else.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884865But the publishers will ALWAYS cite the money they got as a 'victory' and give the impression that they've made a successful product.  But they haven't.  They just hooked people on a promise, nothing more.

Dollars is how we count votes.

If you don't want to use finances as the metric for success, what do you suggest? And what is your justification for not using dollars?

Quote from: Madprofessor;884864Look at Modiphius' own forum, look on purple, or enworld, many people want a traditional style Conan RPG.

Then why wasn't Conan D20 a major success?

Conan D20 was built on 3e, the uber popular "traditional" system (that can suck my ebola nutz), and it had great art, the usual parade of "noted" RPG authors, and a big company behind it.

But where's the mega sales?

Thus, I can't really blame Modiphius for not listening to the same people who didn't buy D20 Conan, or any of the Conan-without-serial-numbers RPGs that have been produced.

Quote from: Jason D;884718Please define what you mean by "the traditional market."

People who read RPGs but don't play them and love to back Kickstarters with beautiful art books that promise them loving memories of the long gone days when they actually gamed?

Both Conan and 7th Sea absolutely has that "traditional market" - and from a publisher perspective, that's a damn good walk to the bank.

And based on what I've heard from Paizo, Readers / Collectors are far better splatbook and adventure customers than actual players.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Conan D20 was built on 3e, the uber popular "traditional" system (that can suck my ebola nutz), and it had great art, the usual parade of "noted" RPG authors, and a big company behind it.

But where's the mega sales?

It's Mongoose.  The game did well, but for the second edition...

• the quality of writing went way down in some supplements
• more overt D&D style magic
• black and white instead of the awesome first edition color pages
• maps even worse than the Mongoose standard
• a system that included more narrative stuff then first edition did
• included not one, but two "stop the end of the world mega-campaigns"

So making Conan d20 1e into more like newer d20 variants really didn't help.

But of course, the real kicker was, CPI didn't let Mongoose go ahead with plans for the line

Spoiler

because they had brought in the guys who wrote Sahara, and the director who makes remakes of horror movies to throw a big pile of shit on the back of Jason Momoa and have him carry it to where anything Conan would be worth a ton of money.  Well we all know how that worked out

so Mongoose just let the license expire.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877I am unsure what you mean by promises?

Most Kickstarters don't have a product to show for what they are offering.  This is a promise.  A promise that the money you're giving the company in question will result in something you can enjoy.

Hopefully, this will work out for Moduphius, but it's still just a promise right now.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877What is Modiphius promising that you doubt they will deliver?

A product on time.  But that's a flaw that all Kickstarters seem to have.  A game system that will emulate playing IN Hyboria (as opposed to a system that mimics some dead guy's writing style.)  And I think we all know how that latter promise isn't going to be fulfilled, given how hard Mr. Durrall has been lobbying at us to like the new system.

Luckily it's found some fans.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877They have laid out the system in the Quickstart so there won't be any major surprises there, and they certainly have a solid history of delivering product.

Which they put out AFTER they started the Kickstarter.  Meaning that most people went in blind, and googly-eyed when they saw CONAN.  In fact, a lot of people are likely to be clinging to the fact that it's another CONAN game.

And likely won't care if it used FATAL's system.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Whether or not that product is to my taste or your taste may be questionable, but Modiphius certainly does put books in mailboxes.

It doesn't matter the end result, they STARTED with a promise of a product that they do not have finished.  At this point.  And worse, they've got Stretch Goals, which will only add onto the workload.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Did you see the Quickstart? There's PLENTY to judge.

It's still not the entire game.  There may be some rules that aren't there.  Are we supposed to judge the ENTIRE game and the core rule book by the Quickstart?

That to me seems nonsensical.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877You absolutely can vote with the KS. Either back it or do not. If you back the KS, that's a "Vote For" and if you don't back it and don't buy it in the future, that's effectively a "Vote Against"

As with every other product else.

We cannot, because there's no product, no completed 'physical' (and by that I mean electronic or physical good) item that is being sold.  Just the promise of one.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Dollars is how we count votes.

If you don't want to use finances as the metric for success, what do you suggest? And what is your justification for not using dollars?

Dollars that are being held in hock right now, because there's no item to show for it.

All we know is that the name CONAN OF CIMMERIA has a LOT of pull.  So much that it's attracting wallets in his name.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Then why wasn't Conan D20 a major success?

Conan D20 was built on 3e, the uber popular "traditional" system (that can suck my ebola nutz), and it had great art, the usual parade of "noted" RPG authors, and a big company behind it.

But where's the mega sales?

It had 2 Editions, 4 core rule books and 38 supplements during its 6 year run.

And this is from a company that everyone hated (for some reason, I never had any problem with them) and a system that was more or less dying (and to this day, there's only two non-D&D games that still use the D20 core engine, Mutants and Masterminds and Fantasy Craft, and I'm not sure Fantasy Craft actually exists anymore.  Pathfinder is a D&D derivative, that smartly used WoTC's own OGL system to reprint the D20 rules with some -at times- dodgy systems and make a profit off people's hatred of what people incorrectly believe was WoTC's motive.)

How is that not a success?  And as I recall, Conan Properties was trying to leverage more money from Mongoose (who was trying to use their license to their Runequest system, which a lot of people still want) because of the God awful Jason Mamoa film was coming up and they wanted Mongoose to help promote another piece of crap pastiche.

But I could be misremembering that part (honest statement, the only thing I clearly remember is Mongoose mentioning licensing issues and the upcoming movie.  At the time.)

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Thus, I can't really blame Modiphius for not listening to the same people who didn't buy D20 Conan, or any of the Conan-without-serial-numbers RPGs that have been produced.

And yet, we've been having people clamouring loudly, proudly, for a Runequest version of it.  And have been for decades.  Instead they attach it to a currently no name system that's got no legs at the moment, because (unless I'm wrong) has only ONE published RPG setting tied to it.

And outside of it's home country, Mutant Chronicles was a flash in the pan setting that died a quiet, miserable death in the 90s.  It wasn't as popular over here, no matter how hard they tried to make it into something successful.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877People who read RPGs but don't play them and love to back Kickstarters with beautiful art books that promise them loving memories of the long gone days when they actually gamed?

Both Conan and 7th Sea absolutely has that "traditional market" - and from a publisher perspective, that's a damn good walk to the bank.

And based on what I've heard from Paizo, Readers / Collectors are far better splatbook and adventure customers than actual players.

I'm sorry, but Citation needed.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
Then why wasn't Conan D20 a major success?

I was under the impression that it did pretty well for an RPG.  I could be wrong.  It died, I thought, because the system was a poor mach for the setting.  When Mongoose tried to get it right (with RQ) the new movie came out, license over.

QuotePeople who read RPGs but don't play them and love to back Kickstarters with beautiful art books that promise them loving memories of the long gone days when they actually gamed?

Both Conan and 7th Sea absolutely has that "traditional market" - and from a publisher perspective, that's a damn good walk to the bank.

And based on what I've heard from Paizo, Readers / Collectors are far better splatbook and adventure customers than actual players.

OK, fine.  I was trying to point to what looks like a gap in the marketing to me.  The game doesn't work for me and it clearly doesn't work for a lot of people who don't like the meta-story-game system, and who have said as much here and elsewhere. I suppose, as you say, it is good business sense for Modiphius to not sell games to these people who want them.  Obviously, any attempt to make a product for this portion of the market would either be a dead end or competition for their pet house system, or probably both.  I guess out of the crapload of splatbooks, tile sets, funky dice, and gimmicks being produced by the some of the best artists and writers in the industry there just isn't room for a product that's suitable for someone who actually plays Hyborian Age RPGs (as opposed to storygames).

I'm just ranting over something I have no power over.  No offense is meant to anyone here.  The game, and what I have learned from this 3 weeks of discussion, has left a bitter taste about the whole RPG industry, and the rant is all I have to get rid of it.  I had planned on backing the project and making the best of it.  Now I feel obliged to vote with my wallet and ineffectually stand up for what is left of my hobby.  I wish the story-gamers and pretty-book collectors well.  I'm going to look for an RPG to play.

I've read RQ6 and it looks so damn easy to convert to Conan.

There's multiple easy options to get all the info you need to run a Hyborean Age RPG, including free online wikis, eBaying old Conan RPGs, and reading the actual REH stories.

Conversion looks easier (and faster) than re-reading this thread.

I am missing something?

Does your group of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans really need a RQ6 Conan RPG to launch a new Conan campaign?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884888And I think we all know how that latter promise isn't going to be fulfilled, given how hard Mr. Durrall has been lobbying at us to like the new system.

I'm answering questions and trying to clarify misconceptions, in my role as the lead developer.

There are four separate and current threads on this forum about the game (or in response to it), and one has my name specifically in the thread title.

Would you prefer I ignored these threads?

It is somewhat of a challenge to be told how the system fails to emulate the fiction of REH in one post, then  in another post have the game dismissed because it apparently emulates the fiction of REH too closely.

It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

There is considerable consensus across these threads about what the problem is.  This is a story game with some board game elements that cannot really be played as a traditional RPG without major system surgery.  The people who play traditional style RPGs are your alienated audience and are the people who are complaining and unhappy.

- I don't know how to make that any clearer.

There are disagreements among the disgruntled here about some specific facets of the game like whether mook rules make sense, funky dice for combat, or the general clamor against Zones for measurement. It's easy to get lost in these side arguments.  However, individually, these sub-systems and design choices are not too big of a deal and are only compounding symptoms of the larger problem. Systemically, the root of the problem which all of these systems connect to is the momentum/doom meta economy, the heart of the system, which cannot easily be worked around.  This core mechanic is what is questionably relevant to the Hyborian Age, and what makes all of these other mechanics, and the game in general,  alienating to so many roleplayers.  The consensus is that this is a story game that doesn't work for traditional style roleplayers - and some of us happen to be Conan fans who are left out.

There is also disagreement on what we can do about it.  One could A) ignore it and play something else B) convert a system that is better suited for Roleplaying in the Hyborian Age (for which there is a general preference of RQ6/BRP across these threads) C) try to preform surgery on this game to make it work D) support the game as a source of adventures, ideas and pretty pictures. Also E) I sometimes think that Modiphius might do something to include the alienated group, the hope of which, keeps me coming back to these threads, but really, I am over it.

None of this is really any of your fault, problem or (perhaps) concern, and  hopefully, the above is more helpful than off-putting to you.  

QuoteIt is somewhat of a challenge to be told how the system fails to emulate the fiction of REH in one post, then in another post have the game dismissed because it apparently emulates the fiction of REH too closely.

I can't find where anyone who said that the game follows REH too closely but that is certainly not a majority opinion in these threads - there is no consensus of that here (and the plural of anecdote is not data).  Anyway, with a clear goal of staying as true to Howard as possible, I would think such abhorrent claims would not concern you.

QuoteI'm answering questions and trying to clarify misconceptions, in my role as the lead developer.

I admit that I have had a number of misconceptions myself.  I've been a difficult customer. :o Thanks, and best of luck. :)

Quote from: Jason D;884922I'm answering questions and trying to clarify misconceptions, in my role as the lead developer.

There are four separate and current threads on this forum about the game (or in response to it), and one has my name specifically in the thread title.

Would you prefer I ignored these threads?

Given how often you seem to reply:  Well, man, that's just YOUR opinion.  And the fact that 90% of the complaints on this site have been about things you cannot change (the system), you coming here is, frankly, a waste of your time.  And honestly, this thread was unfairly tagged with your name to begin with.

Truth be told, most of us still complaining are really, nothing more than a bunch of guys screaming at the wind for knocking down our house of cards.

Seriously, it's unfair to you!

Quote from: Jason D;884922It is somewhat of a challenge to be told how the system fails to emulate the fiction of REH in one post, then  in another post have the game dismissed because it apparently emulates the fiction of REH too closely.

It's a challenge because for a lot of us, because that's not even correct.  To US, it emulates Howardian story structure, not the fact that we get to mentally tromp around in Hyboria.

Quote from: Jason D;884922It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

There's a good chunk of people who claim that a variation of Runequest is the best system.  That's a consensus.  Not one, I personally agree with, but there is one.

But really, at the end of the day, this thread is pointless.  What a lot of people want, you cannot give because the important decisions have been made, and it's up to US (not you) to suck it up like a princess.

And vote with our wallets.

Quote from: Jason D;884922It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

Jason D, you have done a GREAT job communicating on this board and you deserve kudos. I know I wouldn't have had your patience.

And you're 100% right about the lack of consensus. Any approach will alienate some people. That's the nature of any creative exercise. There will never be a movie, song, painting, game or joke that everyone appreciates.

Best wishes with Conan the Forge-arian! :)

Quote from: Madprofessor;884989There is also disagreement on what we can do about it.

There are two choices regarding Conan 2D20. Buy it or don't buy it.

Like the 7th Sea KS, I see great value in the Conan KS offer, but just like 7th Sea, I can't see myself playing or enjoying Conan 2D20 so for me the choice is clear. And I'm a big fan of both 7th Sea and Conan.

And that's okay. I have 7th Sea 1e and I have access to many traditional RPG systems that do Swords & Sorcery just fine.

Also, I have the Conan boardgame KS coming which looks like its gonna scratch my Hyborean jock itch just fine.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinichcat
Jason D, you have done a GREAT job communicating on this board and you deserve kudos. I know I wouldn't have had your patience.

Agreed

QuoteAny approach will alienate some people.

True, but some approaches are more flexible than others, and it is possible to use multiple approaches.

QuoteAnd you're 100% right about the lack of consensus.

Oh, for cryin out loud. Really?  I was just trying to point out the patterns in the abundant complaints, sum up, and get some value and closure out of this thread.  I thought that might be helpful to a lead developer.  I guess you believe that there is no clear pattern here on these threads.  It's all just random complaints by random people with nothing in common and therefore nothing can be learned.

(Actually, to be fair, Jason did say that there is no consensus on "the best approach," which could mean to the gaming population in general, and I had argued that there is a consensus here on this site and among complaints found throughout the internet - and I think quite clearly that there is - bit those are slightly different points.  You may be correct about the general population, but I stand by my argument that there is a clear pattern and consensus to the complaints.)

QuoteAnd that's okay. I have 7th Sea 1e and I have access to many traditional RPG systems that do Swords & Sorcery just fine.

Also, I have the Conan boardgame KS coming which looks like its gonna scratch my Hyborean jock itch just fine.

I am glad you and your jock are happy.  Now, can I move on please?

QuoteBest wishes with Conan the Forge-arian!

That's friggin hilarious! :rotfl:

I may never let that die!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885014And honestly, this thread was unfairly tagged with your name to begin with.

{Looks up at thread title}...this thread was never tagged with his name.  The one tagged with his name is the Questions for Jason thread, where people have been asking him questions about the game and he's answering (as well as some washover from the other threads).

Quote from: Madprofessor;885044I guess you believe that there is no clear pattern here on these threads.  It's all just random complaints by random people with nothing in common and therefore nothing can be learned.

Forum complaints vs. Backer dollars?

Gamers are voting with their dollars FOR what Modiphius is offering.
Other gamers are voting against with forum posts.

Did you check out the 7th Sea 2e Quickstart? There is no question its got Forge-isms galore, and its the most successful RPG KS ever. It closed out today at $1.3M

You, me and many others may prefer "traditional" RPGs, but a huge number of people are willing to throw down $$$ for RPGs with narrative elements.

By comparison, the DCC RPG KS (as trad as they come) only hit $215k
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1409961192/dcc-rpg-4th-printing

Quote from: Madprofessor;885044I am glad you and your jock are happy.  Now, can I move on please?

I thank you. And my jock thanks you as well.

Now you may move on. :)

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051Forum complaints vs. Backer dollars?

Backers that are likely uncaring about the system, all they see is CONAN.  And that's all they likely care about.

And backer dollars mean nothing.  Here's something as well, let's say they didn't reach their goal in time.  Guess, what?  The money was never theirs.  It never left the wallets.  And actually, until the Kickstarter ends, Modiphius STILL doesn't have any of the money.

The real proof in the pudding is when they start selling the books AFTER the Kickstarter.  If they keep making the money they need to retain the license then.

But until that point, it's all smoke and bullshit.

And frankly, if Modiphius continues to sell the books?  Awesome.  I'll buy them when they're out, whether in PDF or, I would personally prefer, hard copies.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051Gamers are voting with their dollars FOR what Modiphius is offering.

Which at this is nothing but a promise with nothing to show for it other than a Quickstarter that's likely got a very tiny slice of the rules.  You want the entire game line to be judged on just this?

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051Did you check out the 7th Sea 2e Quickstart? There is no question its got Forge-isms galore, and its the most successful RPG KS ever. It closed out today at $1.3M

And how much of that is nostalgia?  We don't know.  Again, until the KS closed out and the people who pledged get their books, we know nothing.

Actually, even now that it's closed out, we still know nothing because none of the promised product is out.  And unlike the CONAN game there isn't even a quickstart booklet to give a taste.

It's a PROMISE of a product, not a product.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051You, me and many others may prefer "traditional" RPGs, but a huge number of people are willing to throw down $$$ for RPGs with narrative elements.

Citation needed.  All we see is popular NAMES getting money.  That's it.  There is no correlation or causation.

Zero.

Nada.

Nil.

Zilch.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051By comparison, the DCC RPG KS (as trad as they come) only hit $215k
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1409961192/dcc-rpg-4th-printing

Which was and still is a no-name game from a company with no recognizable gamer street cred.  Again, you're drawing conclusions about things without actually seeing the facts.

Here's some facts about Conan, there have been at least three Hollywood movies, spanning at least about 30 years.  There was, no let me correct myself here, IS a series of comic books/magazines that have been occurring on and off for the past 40 years.  There was a popular game line that lasted 6 years, with two editions.  The property and character has not left the geek public's eye since the 70's.  And even better, everyone knows who Conan is at the moment, even if they mock the character.

John Wick is the famous creator of an RPG that was tied to card game, and yet, had enough appeal to the, then relatively new, Anime gamer fan by making Legend of The Five Rings RPG.  A loosely Japanese-based fantasy game in a decade that didn't really have anything that stood out.

He's also been in the geek public's eye for his infamously glorious internet flame outs, every time he opens his mouth, people notice and mock.  Even those outside of forums, as I'm pretty sure my local game store can't possibly be unique about that.

And what exactly does DCC or Goodman Games have compared to that?  Does anyone know who they are outside of a select few who either kickstarted or bought the book when it came out in hard copy/PDF?

From what I can tell, this is the only site where it has a very enthusiastic fan.  And that's Pundit.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051By comparison, the DCC RPG KS (as trad as they come) only hit $215k
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1409961192/dcc-rpg-4th-printing

• DCC is very loosely tied to Aerth, but DCC doesn't really have a setting. Theah is known from the card game as well and the Hyborian Age...nuff said.
• DCC is known by Old School roleplayers.  7th Sea is known by CCGers and as for Conan, yeah a bit bigger.
• DCC was the 4th Printing of a known game, the other two games aren't finished.
• Goodman didn't decide to hand out the entire 3rd Edition line of DCC Modules in pdf like Wick did, and the stretch goals are very few compared to either 7th or Conan.
• 7th Sea stuff is widely applicable to the Pirate genre at large, the Conan stuff will be useful for anything Conan in general.  DCC...well, it has some cool ideas for other OSR games, but the extreme 70's gonzo nature of the adventures makes them much less useful cross-platform.

Also on the (mostly)trad side you have WotC and Paizo who don't need KS because they're nearly all of the industry.

Comparatively, Goodman actually kicked some ass and punched way above his weight.  Conan KS hasn't even doubled his yet, although it might.

If someone told me you were gonna come out with a new Conan game, with actual Howard scholars fact-checking, art from practically every Conan artist ever, with 12 sourcebooks, art book, Age of Conan MMO tie-in, Monolith Conan tie-in, and map by Brom, I'd have thought it a no-brainer that you would double the KS for the 4th printing of DCC.

This is a bit off topic, but I've been living under a rock.

Spinach the cat with a bored game jock itch for Conan seems to be suggesting that trad roleplaying is a feeble and dying hobby replaced by forgiastic narri-gaming - the implication being that we are not worth Modiphius' time or attention. CB and CRK say nah, and there seems to be good evidence on both sides.

I must say that I am shocked at how well 7th Sea is doing (especially vs Conan), but then its hard to ignore the gorillas, Paizo and WotC, selling traditional games (and Goodman as a pure metal third party hanging on the coattails).  The truth must be somewhere in-between.  There has certainly been some big changes since I first crawled under my rock, and I have some things to learn about how the industry has changed, but the split, unfortunate as it is, seems real enough (it does look more like a split than a massive takeover).

Call me dense, but I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.  REH has not taken sides in the split.  The Hyborian Age must have an appeal to both story-gamers and trad roleplayers. The split seems to be a reality of the market that could be addressed by a savvy company, especially with a games-theory neutral license like Conan. Maybe I am way off, but this product seems to be driving wedges rather than building bridges and that can't be good for business or for the community, given the tight space that we all share.

This is all just rhetorical musing by the way. :)

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.  REH has not taken sides in the split.  The Hyborian Age must have an appeal to both story-gamers and trad roleplayers.

It's Conan, man. My assumption is that people are a bit fed up with it, and frankly I'm not surprised. No matter what clever mechanics you'll add, no matter what face you paint over it, it's still same old Conan's world.

Not that it's bad. It's just same old stuff.

Spoiler

(http://s18.postimg.org/octwcqtix/konan.jpg)

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Call me dense, but I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.  REH has not taken sides in the split.  The Hyborian Age must have an appeal to both story-gamers and trad roleplayers. The split seems to be a reality of the market that could be addressed by a savvy company, especially with a games-theory neutral license like Conan. Maybe I am way off, but this product seems to be driving wedges rather than building bridges and that can't be good for business or for the community, given the tight space that we all share.

This is all just rhetorical musing by the way. :)

I'm probably stepping into a huge pile of shit here, but sometimes it feels necessary...

I'm following four forums (formerly five before the conan.com forums shut down), reading ALL of the comments on the Kickstarter page and the comments from the updates. I'm following the Google community, and have been actively talking and listening about the game for six months.

We've got more than 2800 backers and we've raised more than $380,000 bucks in a month (remember our financing is in UK pounds, not dollars), with another week to go in the Kickstarter and more goodies to unveil. There's also stuff we haven't even hinted about coming down the pipeline, ambitious plans that won't even get mentioned in the Kickstarter.

There are people who're ambivalent about the game, even more who will discover that it's not to their taste, but the number of actually vocal critics is... somewhere under two dozen. I recognize some of the same people on different forums, under different handles. Maybe at worst, there are twice that number. At a certain point, we have to listen to the largest number of voices, not just the loudest.

I'm not saying your criticisms and concerns aren't of interest, and believe me, they are of interest, and are heard and discussed by the team, but at a certain point we have to make decisions, one way or another, and that means alienating someone.

Concerns brought up here have already made their way into the still-in-editing game, and have helped me/us identify potential problems. Thanks to the feedback here, I've been identifying places where we need to find better ways to explain the rules.

So thank you for that.

If the team didn't care what people thought of the game (as there seems to be this impression that choosing apples is showing contempt for oranges) I certainly wouldn't be spending so much time trying to answer questions and hearing issues. I'll admit I get pissy about it sometimes, as I'm also trying to wrangle a huge team of writers and deal with the needs of the Kickstarter promotion, when what I really want to do is get back to making cool shit and talking about REH and Conan stuff with my team.

Ultimately, we need to make the game we feel is best for the long term, for the company and to suit our own design goals.

If we were aiming at nothing but pure profit, it would likely be something like a Pathfinder adaptation or D&D 5th Edition adaptation, and if we were trying to enforce some sort of narrativist/storygamer agenda, it would be... I dunno... Fate or -World-based. I probably wouldn't be involved in either of those cases, or, for that matter, any setup where we're licensing someone else's system.

Instead, we're somewhere in the middle of the road with this new system, with some system-light elements (minion rules, the Fortune/Momentum/Doom economy, distances), and some really crunchy bits, such as weapon effects, randomly-rolled chargen, and talent trees.  

We think it's the right choice. We might be wrong, but honestly, I'm quite excited about the team (writing, art, and production), and am certain of our commitment to making this the best treatment of the license yet.

As a fellow Conan fan and longtime gamer, I'm sorry that we couldn't meet you somewhere halfway, but I'm just as sure that any approach other than the one we're taking would be a mistake.

Quote from: Jason D;885084I'm following four forums (formerly five before the conan.com forums shut down), reading ALL of the comments on the Kickstarter page and the comments from the updates. I'm following the Google community, and have been actively talking and listening about the game for six months.

Jesus Christ, Jason... I'll probably not gonna play the game (no offense please, my focus lies elsewhere these days), but your dedication is really praiseworthy.
:worship:

BTW, I think I finally TRULY understand what people mean when they write "thanks to my wife, who has been with me during the time of writing this game". ;)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053And backer dollars mean nothing.

And then if you don't like the future sales numbers, then those won't matter either!

I love Tigger brand goalposts!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053Which at this is nothing but a promise with nothing to show for it other than a Quickstarter that's likely got a very tiny slice of the rules.  You want the entire game line to be judged on just this?

How much of a book do you read before you buy it?

Few gamers know all the game's rules before buying any game. They flip through the book, they maybe read a review and buy what looks interesting.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053Citation needed.  All we see is popular NAMES getting money.  That's it.  There is no correlation or causation.

The only citation needed are the KS backers and their dollars.

In America, we judge popularity of a product by the number of people who are throwing dollars at it. And other companies pay great attention to what people are buying. That's how we get imitators and trends.

It's ludicrous to believe that gamers come in two flavors - those bamboozled by the NAMES and the wise ones who hate the system.

Even if 50% of the backers are just tossing cash at the NAMES, that still leaves LOADS of backers who downloaded the Quickstart and LIKE what they are being offered.

I don't know why they like it, but many people apparently do.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053Which was and still is a no-name game from a company with no recognizable gamer street cred.  Again, you're drawing conclusions about things without actually seeing the facts.

Wow. So now Goodman Games is an unrecognizable no-name company, and John Wick is the household name?

I stand in awe of your bouncing goalposts. Tigger brand is the best!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053And what exactly does DCC or Goodman Games have compared to that?  Does anyone know who they are outside of a select few who either kickstarted or bought the book when it came out in hard copy/PDF?

Here is the RPG event list from 2015's GenCon.
http://gencon.eventdb.us/category.php?EventType=RPG

7th Sea had 14 events
L5R had 28 events
DCC RPG had 49 events

Here is the RPG event list from 2014's GenCon
http://gencon.highprogrammer.com/gencon-indy-2014.cgi/type/RPG

7th Sea had 29 events
L5R had 37 events
DCC RPG had 28 events

So while DCC is a smaller company without any CCG, there is certainly a player base who are willing to spend money.

If the GenCon data isn't enough, feel free to look at regional conventions and Origins. I believe you will see lots of DCC public play.

BTW, Modiphius is offering $60 in store credit for each GM who runs their games at GenCon. So clearly, GenCon's events are an important metric.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Spinach the cat with a bored game jock itch for Conan seems to be suggesting that trad roleplaying is a feeble and dying hobby replaced by forgiastic narri-gaming - the implication being that we are not worth Modiphius' time or attention.

In you previous post, you asked for permission to move on and my jock genie graciously granted your wish. But then you came back. Do not anger the jock genie!! :)

Go check out those GenCon links. Crunch some math. Figure out which games you would consider "traditional" and which you would not.

I believe you will see two things - (1) traditional RPGs are dominant, (2) non-traditional RPGs have an audience.

I am not part of that 2nd group, but that non-traditional RPG audience is obviously happy to spend money on their not-trad hobby on Kickstarter. And maybe, they are a notable enough audience to support mid-size companies like Modiphius.

As for feebleness, the entire hobby is freaking feeble (compared to what it should be / could be) because there's a lack of advertising and marketing to today's teens so the hobby is aging. And its super sad and stupid because lots of modern teens freaking love RPGs when you introduce them to gaming.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Call me dense, but I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.

I don't disagree with you.

If I was in charge, there would be 2D20 Conan, Pathfinder Conan, 5e Conan, RQ6 Conan, and System Free Hyborean Supplements.

But I do not have the data of how well multi-system products do out in the marketplace. It seems a no-brainer to me in the age of PDF downloads and print on demand, but I may be absolutely wrong.

Frog God Games and Troll Lord do it, but they are small companies trying to appeal to both the OSR and the 5e crowd. Maybe the ROI falls apart for a mid-size company like Modiphius.

And maybe you are right, maybe a very traditional RPG for Conan would have been a much bigger success.

But it appears Modiphius is banking on some Conan fans becoming Modiphius fans and enjoying their proprietary 2D20 house system.

And that's not a new thing. Many companies have used the Popular IP game to promote their house system to sell their other games.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Maybe I am way off, but this product seems to be driving wedges rather than building bridges and that can't be good for business or for the community, given the tight space that we all share.

There is no "fixing" the split.

For most people, RPG means a game you play on your computer.
For some people, RPG means traditional tabletop games.
For other people, RPG means narrative "storygames"

There will always be some people who cross over between the groups, but the majority of people have their favorite RPG style and stick with it.

I don't believe one system can appeal to both groups, and Modiphius believes in the value and appeal of their house system.

If cross-over blended trad/not-trad games are possible, maybe 2D20 Conan and 7th Sea 2e are going to become popular RPGs.

We will see.

But until then, why don't you gather a crew of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans and crank out a kickass free PDF for people to download?

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141And then if you don't like the future sales numbers, then those won't matter either!

I love Tigger brand goalposts!

What mobile goal posts?  You're the one trying to move them.  My stance has always been that Kickstarter money (which isn't even in the bank at the moment, it's waiting for the timer to stop) is not 'future sales'.  It's down payments at best for a PROMISE.  One that Modiphius claims they will fulfill.

And I'm NOT saying they can't.  I'm also not saying they CAN either.  That's up to them to finish the book and it's up to people who pay for the books AFTER the KS.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141How much of a book do you read before you buy it?

As much as I can.  Which is why I go to a local game store that allows perusal.  I try to get as many sections of the book in my head to see if I can agree with it's conceits.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Few gamers know all the game's rules before buying any game. They flip through the book, they maybe read a review and buy what looks interesting.

This though is a fair point.  Thing is, right now, there are NO reviews on the Core Book.  Because the Core Book is NOT OUT YET.  And won't be for at least several months.

There's nothing yet other than a free Quickstart designed to whet the appetite.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141The only citation needed are the KS backers and their dollars.

But those dollars do not exist yet.  The Kickstarter isn't over, and until it does, the credit cards are NOT charged, neither is Paypal.  They do NOT have the money yet.

And once more, into the same old breech, what have they bought?  What is in their hands right now?  I see nothing.  Zero.  And until we see that, all we know for a FACT is that CONAN gets people to willing put down payments on a promise.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141In America, we judge popularity of a product by the number of people who are throwing dollars at it. And other companies pay great attention to what people are buying. That's how we get imitators and trends.

But NO ONE HAS BOUGHT ANYTHING!  There's nothing to buy but Mr. Jason Durrall's promises that this game will be the shit.

Or are you telling me that they bought the Quickstart, which is being given out FOR FREE to everyone.  I don't know about you, but if that's the case, people should get their money back.

But we know better than that.  I hope.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141It's ludicrous to believe that gamers come in two flavors - those bamboozled by the NAMES and the wise ones who hate the system.

Who says there's only two?  What is it with the Internet and Extremes.  Com'on man, the 90's are over, there really is a middle ground.

But come on, how many people went to see the Jason Mamoa film because of his name and/or Conan's without even bothering with a review?  And how many of those people regretted it?  According to various metric sites...  Quite a few (but at least it did better than Fant4stic Poor.  Boy, did that get butchered.  Yowch.)

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Even if 50% of the backers are just tossing cash at the NAMES, that still leaves LOADS of backers who downloaded the Quickstart and LIKE what they are being offered.

Citation needed.  Just because one downloads the QS doesn't mean it's been read, or if it has, is liked.  it just means it's been downloaded.

Why are you attributing causation when you have no facts.

I don't know who likes it or not, I'm not even saying that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141I don't know why they like it, but many people apparently do.

Citation needed.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Wow. So now Goodman Games is an unrecognizable no-name company, and John Wick is the household name?

Yes.  Because they don't have any world wide recognition.  Will that change?  No clue.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141I stand in awe of your bouncing goalposts. Tigger brand is the best!

Look, I get it, Tigger was the coolest character in Pooh, I loved him too, but your projection of what you're doing on to me really needs to stop.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Here is the RPG event list from 2015's GenCon.
http://gencon.eventdb.us/category.php?EventType=RPG

7th Sea had 14 events
L5R had 28 events
DCC RPG had 49 events

Here is the RPG event list from 2014's GenCon
http://gencon.highprogrammer.com/gencon-indy-2014.cgi/type/RPG

7th Sea had 29 events
L5R had 37 events
DCC RPG had 28 events

So while DCC is a smaller company without any CCG, there is certainly a player base who are willing to spend money.

And here's some facts for you.  L5R started in 1995 by Alderac.  So it's been around for about 21 years in both card and RPG game form.  7th Sea, also by John Wick and Alderac Entertainment Group came out in 1999, which puts it at 17 years.  So two games with nearly two decades of life, which are still getting played compared to a game that was published in 2012, which puts it about 4 years.

So last year's Gencon two of the games that Mr. Wick has put out is being BARELY BEATEN by a newer, thus fresher in the minds of gamers, game, and your saying that DCC is 'better'?

Together, John Wick's games total 42 spots, compared to the 49 DCC asked for.  (We're also making a massive assumption that every seat was filled.)

And yet, in 2014, L5R and 7th Sea combined beat it handily, two game lines that are much OLDER than DCC.

I'm sorry, but...  You've just proven my point.  John Wick's games are still more popular, and more in the minds of people than Goodman Game's newer DCC retro-clone wannabe.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141If the GenCon data isn't enough, feel free to look at regional conventions and Origins. I believe you will see lots of DCC public play.

BTW, Modiphius is offering $60 in store credit for each GM who runs their games at GenCon. So clearly, GenCon's events are an important metric.

Metric for what?  Specifically.  That Modiphius feels the need to bribe GMs to run games at their event?  If you look at it in that way, that doesn't look so good.

Or are you being bamboozled (thanks for using that word, it's a long time since I heard/saw it, and it's a fun one!  :)  No, really, I sincerely thank you for it!) by the promise of 'free' money?

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141But until then, why don't you gather a crew of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans and crank out a kickass free PDF for people to download?

Because Conan Properties would probably threaten to sue.  And given how much money the gaming hobby doesn't have, I think a lot of people would like to avoid that.

And Conan Properties has proven to be very litigious.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
I'm probably stepping into a huge pile of shit here, but sometimes it feels necessary...

I'm following four forums (formerly five before the conan.com forums shut down), reading ALL of the comments on the Kickstarter page and the comments from the updates. I'm following the Google community, and have been actively talking and listening about the game for six months.

We've got more than 2800 backers and we've raised more than $380,000 bucks in a month (remember our financing is in UK pounds, not dollars), with another week to go in the Kickstarter and more goodies to unveil. There's also stuff we haven't even hinted about coming down the pipeline, ambitious plans that won't even get mentioned in the Kickstarter.

There are people who're ambivalent about the game, even more who will discover that it's not to their taste, but the number of actually vocal critics is... somewhere under two dozen. I recognize some of the same people on different forums, under different handles. Maybe at worst, there are twice that number. At a certain point, we have to listen to the largest number of voices, not just the loudest.

I'm not saying your criticisms and concerns aren't of interest, and believe me, they are of interest, and are heard and discussed by the team, but at a certain point we have to make decisions, one way or another, and that means alienating someone.

Concerns brought up here have already made their way into the still-in-editing game, and have helped me/us identify potential problems. Thanks to the feedback here, I've been identifying places where we need to find better ways to explain the rules.

So thank you for that.

If the team didn't care what people thought of the game (as there seems to be this impression that choosing apples is showing contempt for oranges) I certainly wouldn't be spending so much time trying to answer questions and hearing issues. I'll admit I get pissy about it sometimes, as I'm also trying to wrangle a huge team of writers and deal with the needs of the Kickstarter promotion, when what I really want to do is get back to making cool shit and talking about REH and Conan stuff with my team.

Ultimately, we need to make the game we feel is best for the long term, for the company and to suit our own design goals.

If we were aiming at nothing but pure profit, it would likely be something like a Pathfinder adaptation or D&D 5th Edition adaptation, and if we were trying to enforce some sort of narrativist/storygamer agenda, it would be... I dunno... Fate or -World-based. I probably wouldn't be involved in either of those cases, or, for that matter, any setup where we're licensing someone else's system.

Instead, we're somewhere in the middle of the road with this new system, with some system-light elements (minion rules, the Fortune/Momentum/Doom economy, distances), and some really crunchy bits, such as weapon effects, randomly-rolled chargen, and talent trees.

We think it's the right choice. We might be wrong, but honestly, I'm quite excited about the team (writing, art, and production), and am certain of our commitment to making this the best treatment of the license yet.

As a fellow Conan fan and longtime gamer, I'm sorry that we couldn't meet you somewhere halfway, but I'm just as sure that any approach other than the one we're taking would be a mistake.

Jason, that is about the most gracious and honest post I have seen since I joined these forums. Integrity is so rare that it shocking when you see it.  I think I will back the kickstarter for the adventures, setting, and art.  I will not "vote with my wallet" as if we are foes.  I'll maybe even give the game a couple of more tries. Though I still might call it "Conan the Forge-arian," at least in private. Thanks for the discussion and for listening, and sorry for pissing you off and making your enviable but difficult job a true pain in the ass. :)

Cheers, and may Ishtar bless the project with her golden bosom!

Epilogue...

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
In you previous post, you asked for permission to move on and my jock genie graciously granted your wish. But then you came back. Do not anger the jock genie!!

I once had an Elric! character with a demonic cod piece who would destroy the Jock itch Genie! :jaw-dropping: Do not anger and invoke Deltar Copenhagen!. :p (its true).

QuoteGo check out those GenCon links. Crunch some math. Figure out which games you would consider "traditional" and which you would not.

I believe you will see two things - (1) traditional RPGs are dominant, (2) non-traditional RPGs have an audience.

That's useful.  At the moment, I'd rather rely on your knowledge then conduct my own analysis as it sounds roughly accurate to me (I am 4 beers in and willing to agree with my own beliefs).

QuoteBut it appears Modiphius is banking on some Conan fans becoming Modiphius fans and enjoying their proprietary 2D20 house system.

And that's not a new thing. Many companies have used the Popular IP game to promote their house system to sell their other games.

I guess, but that seems wrong.  Don't we owe a little something to REH, Martin, Tolkien, Gygax? It is just an impression, but systems are a dime a dozen, good settings are gems (and the Hyborian Age really is the original fantasy setting - or close to it).  I would be surprised if system loyalty is >greater than> setting loyalty. It's unquatifiable, but there are interesting implications nonetheless.  

If it were me, I would create a game specifically to model the IP (what does IP stand for, anyway?) as closely as possible for the sake of the IP, for longevity, and just 'cause its the right thing to do.  With all due respect to Jason, this Conan game still feels like Mutant Chronicles of the Hyborian Age.  System wise, CoC or Pendragon are models for any IP based game.  They are systems that really honor the setting and have stood the test of time.  Why don't IP designers emulate S. Peterson's CoC design ethos?  Maybe they do. I dunno, I'm a six pack in and I'm sure I had something profound to say but it slipped my mind...

QuoteAs for feebleness, the entire hobby is freaking feeble (compared to what it should be / could be) because there's a lack of advertising and marketing to today's teens so the hobby is aging. And its super sad and stupid because lots of modern teens freaking love RPGs when you introduce them to gaming.

I may be naive, but I think our hobby is at the creative root of popular culture!  Roleplaying matters! Its' culturally relevant. Novels, movies, video games, bored games, etc draw a lot of inspiration from us assholes and from my demonic cod piece. Not stroking my ego here but I've been GMing for nearly 4 decades.  Without conscious effort, I've sold countless novels, movie tickets and video games to former players who were inspired by, nay searching for, the memories of our imaginative gaming.  I'm also 7 beers in, and it's my delusion, so I'm sticking to it. ;)

On the other hand.  If anybody had ideas on how to expand the hobby. I'm all ears.

QuoteThere is no "fixing" the split.

Bah. Cowardice I say. Damn jock itch genie veggie cat! (8 beers).  Actually, you probably know better than I.  I just learned about the split a few weeks ago. but forge theory (GNS) is built on an incredibly divisive and false assumption that G, N, and S are mutually exclusive. What a crock!

I am a historical minis gamer, have been for ages, and I often include mass battles in my RPGs adding a strategic level to the game.  I am also extremely story focused (never used gold for XP), it's part of the immersion, (but I am a "simm-u-la-tion-ist," and apparently a hardcore one). According to forge design theory (as I have learned), the fun that I have had for years is impossible.

Anyway, when people get together at the table "the split" means a lot less, and I think we are all looking for the same imaginative experiences.  There must be a way to bridge the gap. We do it at the table regardless of system, at least at my table (or do people have theory wars at the table :confused:0

It seems at the least, people could publish systems where story mechanics are addable/removable to suit tastes.

QuoteBut until then, why don't you gather a crew of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans and crank out a kickass free PDF for people to download?

That's exactly what I'll do!:cool: (9 beers in)... wait, is that legal??? with Conan??? Publish where?? how? what?

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187System wise, CoC or Pendragon are models for any IP based game.  They are systems that really honor the setting and have stood the test of time.  

Both of these are based on the rules for RuneQuest.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885147But those dollars do not exist yet.  The Kickstarter isn't over, and until it does, the credit cards are NOT charged, neither is Paypal.  They do NOT have the money yet.

We must agree to disagree because we aren't on the same basic page.

You believe that backer pledges are not money and I believe they are money (except for the small percentage of backers who do back out).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885147That Modiphius feels the need to bribe GMs to run games at their event?  If you look at it in that way, that doesn't look so good.

Actually paying GMs to run their events is brilliant marketing.

If they screen the GMs and bring talent to promote their stuff, they will be promoting their games strongly at GenCon which has a ripple effect as those players return home.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885147Because Conan Properties would probably threaten to sue.

Nobody is gonna give a shit about yet another free RPG PDF wandering the internet. If something isn't being sold, there's nothing to sue.

Plenty of unlicensed conversions for IPs are floating about.

Disney is known to be psycho-litigious, but plenty of unofficial Star Wars sites and conversions can be found for various game systems.

In fact, you can snatch up all the amazing Conan artwork online and slap that into the PDF too!

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187I once had an Elric! character with a demonic cod piece who would destroy the Jock itch Genie!

An Elric fan! Awesome! We must jabber about Stormbringer in another thread!

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187Don't we owe a little something to REH, Martin, Tolkien, Gygax?

Admiration? Corpse blowjobs?

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187It is just an impression, but systems are a dime a dozen, good settings are gems (and the Hyborian Age really is the original fantasy setting - or close to it).

Good settings are gems, but while a good GM may not write like REH, I believe many good GMs have created wonderful settings for their home games that can often rival any published setting.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187If it were me, I would create a game specifically to model the IP (what does IP stand for, anyway?) as closely as possible for the sake of the IP, for longevity, and just 'cause its the right thing to do.

IP is Intellectual Property.

I truly believe Jason D's team is trying to make the 2D20 system work for Conan just like Chaosium made their BRP system work for CoC and Pendragon and Stormbringer.

You and I just don't like the direction Modiphius has chosen.

I'm a huge CoC fan and a huge HPL fan, but I am ready to admit that CoC doesn't emulate HPL's fiction. It's inspired by his fiction, but a CoC adventure has more in common with a D&D romp than a HPL tale.

And that's okay, because CoC is about having a fun horror game with friends around the table, not trying to recreate HPL's writing style.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187If anybody had ideas on how to expand the hobby. I'm all ears.

Run demo games for teens.

Run demo games for lapsed gamers.

Run demo games for adults who heard of D&D, but never tried it.

AKA, the more public play, the better.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
Both of these are based on the rules for RuneQuest.

True, my preferences are showing.

Wow, Modiphius are adding a 2 year print subscription to all its big pledges :o

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1520991

That's a massive giveaway (though I guess what you get in the 2 years after the corebook is released as somewhat nebulous).

As good as the deal is, I can't help but feel like this shows that they haven't quite hit the success they were hoping for this KS. Its only a smidgeon over the Corvus Infinity KS at the moment. The last 4 days are really going to be interesting.

This is what you will be getting in two years after the corebook.

http://www.modiphius.com/conan-rpg-product-line.html

Quote from: Starglyte;885477This is what you will be getting in two years after the corebook.

http://www.modiphius.com/conan-rpg-product-line.html

Its what's slated for release but there is no guarantee that they will be released in that timeframe. If they aren't, will they still be included in the pledge?

Quote from: Skywalker;885478Its what's slated for release but there is no guarantee that they will be released in that timeframe. If they aren't, will they still be included in the pledge?

I believe so.

Quote from: Jason D;885479I believe so.

Can you confirm that?  Because that's an important thing for a few people, I'd assume.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885527Can you confirm that?  Because that's an important thing for a few people, I'd assume.

This was Chris Birch's answer on the Kickstarter comments thread:

Quotewe're reserving the right to change or combine some of the books - sometimes you can't predict ahead too much how things might need to change, but there's likely to be much more than those books in the 2 year period. We're talking right through to summer 2018 and we have plenty of big pitches coming in.

So yes, I am almost 100% sure that's the case, but I'll follow up with Chris to get explicit words to that effect.  

Books ship late. It's a reality of working with human beings. Penalizing/shortchanging backers because of production delays is not really a sustainable business model.

We played Conan from the QS last night.

The game is very traditional. It has attributes and skills. You roll dice low to score under the target number, and there is a nice 'focus' stat which creates something like a BRP/RQ critical effect but which is variable between skills.

The system complexity seems on par with D&D 5e, or RQ6, potentially the same as 3.5e/Pathfinder. It's more complex than Savage Worlds, Traveller, BECMI It's less complex than Exalted or GURPS or HERO or 4e D&D.

Where it is very trad is that the NPCs seem to follow the same book keeping as PCs, unlike 13th Age, Numenera, FAGE, Savage Worlds. This means the load on the GM is as high as it ever was.

It has a 'Fortune' point system which is similar to HeroPoints/Bennies and various system.

It then has a Momentum system whereby points generated by extra successes can be spent on cool stuff like extra damage or multiple attacks or multiple targets.. OR popped in a pot for later use. [where they do slip away]. It's a nice way to trigger the sort of critical effects other trad systems use.

Doom is similar to these two. A player who is willing to may grab extra dice by allowing the GM to add Doom points to the GM Doom pool. The GM uses them like Momentum points but for NPCs to do stuff.

Note that although at the very end of a long list of very mechanistic games stuff, there is the ability to say something narrative about the game, and it really is a minor option in a long list of stuff like 'extra damage, extra dice, multple attacks, extra target, retaliate, protect other etc..'

There is a physical and mental damage track, so that mental conflict can be resolved alongside hitting each other. Growling, shouting, glaring, intimidating, tricking people, and other mind fuckery is here.

I liked it all. It's a game that I am not sure I need on my shelf to GM but which I would happily play if we were going to commit a year to it, and then I'd be happy to invest in learning the complexities.

It is not a narrative game, the GM can kill the players and they can't stop him, [my PC died last night], and it's rather cool.

Quote from: tzunder;885540We played Conan from the QS last night.

The game is very traditional. It has attributes and skills. You roll dice low to score under the target number, and there is a nice 'focus' stat which creates something like a BRP/RQ critical effect but which is variable between skills.

The system complexity seems on par with D&D 5e, or RQ6, potentially the same as 3.5e/Pathfinder. It's more complex than Savage Worlds, Traveller, BECMI It's less complex than Exalted or GURPS or HERO or 4e D&D.

Where it is very trad is that the NPCs seem to follow the same book keeping as PCs, unlike 13th Age, Numenera, FAGE, Savage Worlds. This means the load on the GM is as high as it ever was.

It has a 'Fortune' point system which is similar to HeroPoints/Bennies and various system.

It then has a Momentum system whereby points generated by extra successes can be spent on cool stuff like extra damage or multiple attacks or multiple targets.. OR popped in a pot for later use. [where they do slip away]. It's a nice way to trigger the sort of critical effects other trad systems use.

Doom is similar to these two. A player who is willing to may grab extra dice by allowing the GM to add Doom points to the GM Doom pool. The GM uses them like Momentum points but for NPCs to do stuff.

Note that although at the very end of a long list of very mechanistic games stuff, there is the ability to say something narrative about the game, and it really is a minor option in a long list of stuff like 'extra damage, extra dice, multple attacks, extra target, retaliate, protect other etc..'

There is a physical and mental damage track, so that mental conflict can be resolved alongside hitting each other. Growling, shouting, glaring, intimidating, tricking people, and other mind fuckery is here.

I liked it all. It's a game that I am not sure I need on my shelf to GM but which I would happily play if we were going to commit a year to it, and then I'd be happy to invest in learning the complexities.

It is not a narrative game, the GM can kill the players and they can't stop him, [my PC died last night], and it's rather cool.

I'm yet to run it, but that's about what I'd expect to hear afterwards, too;).

QuoteThe system complexity seems on par with D&D 5e, or RQ6, potentially the same as 3.5e/Pathfinder. It's more complex than Savage Worlds, Traveller, BECMI It's less complex than Exalted or GURPS or HERO or 4e D&D.

.
This sounds just as my impression as well. I find it higly problematic and not very GM friendly. Same as my issues with Mongoose Conan.

Still, I am very tempted to pledge with the subscription for all books in print. Those settng books sure looks neat. Problem is I cant find any details about shipping costs and how it will be handled. I have never pledged to any kickstarter before so I am at a bit lost here.

Quote from: Teodrik;885569.
This sounds just as my impression as well. I find it higly problematic and not very GM friendly. Same as my issues with Mongoose Conan.

Still, I am very tempted to pledge with the subscription for all books in print. Those settng books sure looks neat. Problem is I cant find any details about shipping costs and how it will be handled. I have never pledged to any kickstarter before so I am at a bit lost here.

hi there, we launched the pledge calculator today so that should help - here's a link - http://conan-calculator.modiphiusapps.hostinguk.org/ (http://conan-calculator.modiphiusapps.hostinguk.org/)

So yes we unlocked Print Subscription for our two big pledges that now get you all the books in print for 2 years. Basically as we unlock them now, they move in to the Kickstarter 3 waves of delivery. If not we then deliver the planned books over the next two years - backers decide and pay for the number of shipments they want. More info here.  (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1520991)

(https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/12804859_1057626864280434_3493509441822384612_n.jpg?oh=11c09b7824d3232b7c3b6778acb6ce6b&oe=5792EEB6)

I'll leave you with the new cover for Conan the Pirate by Tom Grindberg - nuff said :-)

(https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10418977_1057403074302813_8627062138029100788_n.jpg?oh=af6bf4e0d571c54d4cdb9a3d90ee8685&oe=578B04BA)

Quote from: tzunder;885540Where it is very trad is that the NPCs seem to follow the same book keeping as PCs, unlike 13th Age, Numenera, FAGE, Savage Worlds. This means the load on the GM is as high as it ever was.

Nope, not even remotely true.  NPCs do not have the same stat breakdowns as PCs, it is simplified.  In addition, Minions take one wound and out - zero book keeping.  Elites take two wounds and out.  So minimal.  Even the "PC-level" 5 wound NPCs have a simplified stat line.  So simplified statline and Mook rules means the load is no where near as high on the GM as if the opponents were PCs.

Quote from: tzunder;885540It is not a narrative game, the GM can kill the players and they can't stop him, [my PC died last night], and it's rather cool.

So now the definition of "narrative" is having a Tenra Bansho Zero "you can't kill me box?"...yeah, NO.  You ain't ever gonna shift the goalpost that far.

Sorry bro, when the designers themselves call it a narrative game with mechanics to better reflect and tell Howardian stories, and at least some of those mechanics provide that function, you don't get to do the "not narrative" bullshit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;885650Nope, not even remotely true.  NPCs do not have the same stat breakdowns as PCs, it is simplified.  In addition, Minions take one wound and out - zero book keeping.  Elites take two wounds and out.  So minimal.  Even the "PC-level" 5 wound NPCs have a simplified stat line.  So simplified statline and Mook rules means the load is no where near as high on the GM as if the opponents were PCs.

Some NPCs will have full stat writeups, when it's important for such distinctions.

Quote from: CRKrueger;885650Sorry bro, when the designers themselves call it a narrative game with mechanics to better reflect and tell Howardian stories, and at least some of those mechanics provide that function, you don't get to do the "not narrative" bullshit.

That horse doesn't seem quite dead. Better hit it again.

The game isn't Once Upon a Time, Dread, Trollbabe, Fiasco, Polaris, or even The Adventures of Baron Munchhausen.

No sleight against any of those games, but that's not really what we're aiming at. We're making a fairly traditional game that uses some narrative-style mechanics on top to better create Howardian-style adventures.

It's not an engine to "tell Howardian stories."

It's to help the GM give the players great adventures in the flavor of Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, which we are assuming is of interest to anyone who purchases or plays a game called Robert E. Howard's Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of.

Well we just unlocked the £300k bonus which is a set of Conan d20 PDF's courtesy of Conan Properties and a d20 to 2d20 conversion guide for backers!

More info here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1522530 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1522530)

If you could re-size those pictures, that would be grand.

Quote from: Jason D;885710We're making a fairly traditional game that uses some narrative-style mechanics on top to better create Howardian-style adventures.

Jason, adding narrative-style mechanics to a roleplaying game makes it a narrative roleplaying game.  But...

ENOUGH TALK!

$56 bucks and you get all the Modiphius 2d20 Conan and all the Mongoose d20 Conan.  

That's all you had to say. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_IXzU-lnLU)

Quote from: ChrisBirch;885720Well we just unlocked the £300k bonus which is a set of Conan d20 PDF's courtesy of Conan Properties and a d20 to 2d20 conversion guide for backers!

More info here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1522530 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1522530)

You just sold me and I have zero interest in the system.  I'm not anti-narrative like some others here (Savage Worlds is my current go to system and it has narrative bits*), I just think you (as a group)  made the narrative bits too central to the system and I don't think they do what you claim they do.  Still, you have created a great deal and I'm a huge Howard fan, so while I do not like the system, I do appreciate all the other things you have done and I really look forward to the art and other systemless bits.


*While I think you may have done a bit better just going with Savage Worlds, as you did with Achtung! Cthulhu, rather than your own system, it's hard to argue with success in this case.

Quote from: Jason D;885710It's to help the GM give the players great adventures in the flavor of Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, which we are assuming is of interest to anyone who purchases or plays a game called Robert E. Howard's Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of.

Jason -

I note the mentions of mass battles and such - are the books that include the Hyborian nations including demographic data? Populations of major cities, the nation as a whole, things like that - the sort of data one would want to know what sort of militia they could call up for those battles, let's say - and distances, geographies, etc?

Any chance at all you could provide an abbreviated peek at an example of that information if it's available?

Quote from: Jason D;885710We're making a fairly traditional game that uses some narrative-style mechanics on top to better create Howardian-style adventures.

Your game has pretty regularly occuring narrative elements though.

When someone spends group momentum to succeed better at picking a lock, they are succeeding BECAUSE YOU SWUNG YOUR SWORD HARDER THAN NORMAL LAST ROUND (and banked the Momentum).

And when the GM spends Doom to let the picts gain initiative, they are going first BECAUSE YOU TRIED HARDER LAST ENCOUNTER (you bought dice with Doom).

These kinds of things have no connection to in-world cause and effect. They are entirely narrative, and they happen in nearly every exchange between player and GM.

This doen't necessarily make the game bad, but it's pretty undeniable that this is a full-on (the elements come out nearly every round) narrativist game.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;885630hi there, we launched the pledge calculator today so that should help - here's a link - http://conan-calculator.modiphiusapps.hostinguk.org/ (http://conan-calculator.modiphiusapps.hostinguk.org/)

So yes we unlocked Print Subscription for our two big pledges that now get you all the books in print for 2 years. Basically as we unlock them now, they move in to the Kickstarter 3 waves of delivery. If not we then deliver the planned books over the next two years - backers decide and pay for the number of shipments they want. More info here.  (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1520991)

(https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/12804859_1057626864280434_3493509441822384612_n.jpg?oh=11c09b7824d3232b7c3b6778acb6ce6b&oe=5792EEB6)

I'll leave you with the new cover for Conan the Pirate by Tom Grindberg - nuff said :-)

(https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10418977_1057403074302813_8627062138029100788_n.jpg?oh=af6bf4e0d571c54d4cdb9a3d90ee8685&oe=578B04BA)

So if I take Hoard of Yezdigerd, I can take it all in one shippment? I understand it will take a much longer time to get my stuff of course. But is it an viable option?

Quote from: koewn;885784Jason -

I note the mentions of mass battles and such - are the books that include the Hyborian nations including demographic data? Populations of major cities, the nation as a whole, things like that - the sort of data one would want to know what sort of militia they could call up for those battles, let's say - and distances, geographies, etc?

Any chance at all you could provide an abbreviated peek at an example of that information if it's available?

Still being written, but we're not focusing on raw numbers.

Can I pull that out that a bit?

When someone spends group momentum to succeed better at picking a lock, they are succeeding BECAUSE YOU ROLLED MORE DICE LAST ROUND.

And when the GM spends Doom to let the picts gain initiative, they are going first BECAUSE YOU ROLLED MORE DICE LAST ROUND.

Quote from: Enlightened;885797These kinds of things have no connection to in-world cause and effect.

Please explain to me how dice, character sheets, experience points, character classes, hit points, saving throws, and gamemasters represent in-world cause and effect.

Quote from: Jason D;885890Please explain to me how dice, character sheets, experience points, character classes, hit points, saving throws, and gamemasters represent in-world cause and effect.

This, a thousand times.

So often you see forum posts where people claim their system and/or tastes are "simulationist" or even talk of systems in terms of "physics engines". These people must be almost completely ignorant of the depth of the real world if they think a model written out in a few pages can hope to accurately or comprehensively simulate the real world. Take as just one example the sequential nature of most RPG combat systems. Such ordered events have nothing to do with a real fight where simultaneous attacks abound. Combat order is completely a narrativist trick to get a "story" out of a game in a regularised manner.

An RPG system is a model and therefore explicitly an abstraction. They will forever be fated to the abstract. They can't hope to have a high goodness-of-fit to the real world without being exceedingly dense and voluminous. Instead they have always been and always will be aiming for a goodness-of-fit to genre and story. That necessitates a number of approximations and assumptions in order to get the model to work (i.e., be an enjoyable game).

Quote from: Jason D;885890Please explain to me how dice, character sheets, experience points, character classes, hit points, saving throws, and gamemasters represent in-world cause and effect.

Experience points, character classes, hit points, and saving throws are pretty demonstrative.

When you do things you get experience.
Archtypes exist.
Hit points are meat points (GURPS, etc.) or fatigue points from dodging blows (depending on the game). In D&D 1E, I believe there is a blurb explaining several different in-world explanations for them (divine intervention, the experience of knowing how to shift out of harms way, luck, etc.).
Saving throws are like any other kind of task roll. "I try to avoid the danger."

And dice, character sheets, and gamemasters are real world things that don't have anything to do with game world internal cause and effect.

You say...

Quote from: Jason D;885890We're making a fairly traditional game...

So I'm confused.
Do you think that all games are actually narrative games because they contain the things you listed?

I curious, what do you think the difference between a traditional game and a narrative game is?

Quote from: Stainless;885905So often you see forum posts where people claim their system and/or tastes are "simulationist" or even talk of systems in terms of "physics engines". These people must be almost completely ignorant of the depth of the real world if they think a model written out in a few pages can hope to accurately or comprehensively simulate the real world. Take as just one example the sequential nature of most RPG combat systems. Such ordered events have nothing to do with a real fight where simultaneous attacks abound. Combat order is completely a narrativist trick to get a "story" out of a game in a regularised manner.

An RPG system is a model and therefore explicitly an abstraction. They will forever be fated to the abstract. They can't hope to have a high goodness-of-fit to the real world without being exceedingly dense and voluminous. Instead they have always been and always will be aiming for a goodness-of-fit to genre and story. That necessitates a number of approximations and assumptions in order to get the model to work (i.e., be an enjoyable game).

It's not a matter of simulating the physics of the real world. It's about things having some in-world footprint.

Abstract is fine. Unrealistic is fine. As long as there is some in-world explanation.

Quote from: Enlightened;885906Do you think that all games are actually narrative games because they contain the things you listed?

I curious, what do you think the difference between a traditional game and a narrative game is?

I keep bringing this up, and no one seems to be listening.

The distinction between "narrative game" and "traditional game" is pointless and abstract, meaning different things to different people.

Hexes/grids, combat rounds, experience points, leveling up, etc. are all weird abstractions that have nothing to do with anything actually imagined in a game world, yet are as equally abstract as are fortune points, gm resources, or momentum-style mechanics.

If you're judging games by these categories, what do you mean by them, and why is this distinction so important to you?

Quote from: Madprofessor;883843Crypts and things is an excellent hack of Swords and Wizardry/OD&D for swords and sorcery style games.  It's old school D&D hacked for the Hyborian Age with the REH Trademarks and serial numbers filed off. It's very different from RQ6 (classes/levels etc).  If you want Conan with D&D - this is it!

Thanks! I was a contributor to C&T.

(My house-rules for S&W (http://akraticwizardry.blogspot.ca/2009/07/swords-sorcery-house-rules-index.html) were meant to emulate settings like Hyborea, and many of those rules were later integrated by Newt into C&T.)

So "Conan with D&D" is very much the point of C&T! :D

Quote from: ChrisBirch;885720Well we just unlocked the £300k bonus which is a set of Conan d20 PDF's courtesy of Conan Properties and a d20 to 2d20 conversion guide for backers!

More info here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1522530 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1522530)

I was holding off on backing this kickstarter (I've come to dislike kickstarters in general). But this moved me to finally back it at the 60 pounds level (print book + the PDFs).

The entire catalogue of the previous Conan RPG was too good a deal to not take. And it'll be nice to have what promises to be a beautiful print rulebook (whatever I end up thinking about the 2d20 system itself).

Quote from: Jason D;885908The distinction between "narrative game" and "traditional game" is pointless and abstract, meaning different things to different people.

The terms are simply shorthand and you know that very well.

tl;dr version:
In a RPG...

• Some choices the player makes are the same choices the character could make.
• Some choices the player makes are ones the character can not possibly make.

These are two different things. Period.[/I]

Full Version:
Every RPG has mechanics that let your character interface with the setting.

Some mechanics are more abstracted than others.

When a player uses a mechanic, are they making a decision that their character in the setting could have made or are they making a decision that character does not have?

To some people the difference between these are immaterial.  The game is the game, the rules are the rules.  There's a lot of people to whom there literally is no difference because they never break through that 4th wall into their character to begin with, so, naturally, they never get pulled back out by a mechanic.

To other people though, if they are playing their character, they want to try and enjoy the experience of thinking as thei character as much as possible (you know, the whole "playing the role" thing).  The fact that I'm picking up dice and rolling when I attack instead of grabbing a sword and boffo larping it doesn't mean that my decision to attack isn't something my character can be doing, therefore I can make that decision and still be in the headspace of my character.

Once I get to decisions where I can choose a greater chance of success with the knowledge that the GM is going to get a similar boost, then I leave the realm of thinking as the character, to the realm of thinking about the character.

Every single action, I remove myself from the character, and as a player, decide whether I want to designate this action important enough to pay Doom for, knowing that I'm "kicking it up a notch".  

Doom is a mechanic designed to mimic the dramatic tension, ebb and flow of an electrically charged Howard story.  It works as intended.  I actually like the mechanic for what it is.

But, for my preferred Roleplaying experience, it's "too many mind".
Mind on the Doom.
Mind on the Momentum.
Mind on the Fortune.
For IC immersion I need "no mind".

Any system that includes narrative mechanics is like driving an extremely high end sports car.  It's designed for a specific experience, and that experience is ACTIVE.  You can't just cruise in a Lambo, you have to drive that fucker.  

Narrative mechanics are there to be engaged, they don't "fade into the background", that's not what they are for.  You get in there and work that Doom, and the more you put as a player to see things as a story and to actively engage with the story, the more you get out of the system as the 3 different point pools start flowing back and forth and things get really moving.

My group had a second session with the game, and it was fun...it's just not the same type of fun that our regular RPG sessions provide.

It's kind of funny, RPGs with narrative mechanics are one of the only sold products where you see people claiming the selling points of their product don't exist or aren't relevant.

Quote from: Enlightened;885907It's not a matter of simulating the physics of the real world. It's about things having some in-world footprint.

Abstract is fine. Unrealistic is fine. As long as there is some in-world explanation.

Do Luck or Fate have an in-world footprint? They're certainly not part of simulationist "physics" but are certainly part of genre simulation. Characters in stories can be lucky and may even have "earned" their luck - but they don't tend to stand around aware of the lucky/blessed status.

Quote from: Anselyn;885943Do Luck or Fate have an in-world footprint? They're certainly not part of simulationist "physics" but are certainly part of genre simulation. Characters in stories can be lucky and may even have "earned" their luck - but they don't tend to stand around aware of the lucky/blessed status.

Depends on the implementation.  Usually no, but sometimes yes.

For example, in WFRP1 Fate was literally that.  There was a cosmic battle between the Chaos Gods and the Gods of the Old World and even though you were a Halfling Rat-Catcher, you were someone who was Fated to take place in that battle.  As a result, you had a Fate score, but those points could only be used to stop you from outright dying, that's it.  There was no choice for the player to make regarding them.

Some games have similar Luck mechanics that are a bit more active, in that they allow for rerolls.  Again, in some systems and settings, Luck or Karma is actually a *thing* in that setting that does have some footprint.

In a lot of games though, there is no footprint.  However, usually a game with that type of Luck, it's trivially easy to ignore, remove, or simply treat as a "Lucky so less chance to die" aspect if you prefer.  The game doesn't expect Active engagement of the mechanic.

Some games, like Savage Worlds can ramp it up or down.  You can have a Pulpy, Cinematic Bennyfest, or you can tone it down, and limit the uses, but since the system was kind of designed for Full.Benny, it doesn't play quite the same.

I'd say 2d20 is like Savage Worlds, in that you could ramp it up or down, but it's more dependent on the narrative mechanics then SW is.  2d20 is a lot closer to Fate or Cortex on the spectrum, even if it doesn't go that far.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D

I keep bringing this up, and no one seems to be listening.

The distinction between "narrative game" and "traditional game" is pointless and abstract, meaning different things to different people.

I am listening, and I don't agree.

...and we wonder why this horse won't die. :)

The argument of total subjectivity in game experience just does not hold water.  

There is variation in the terms "narrative game" and "traditional game" and the borders between the two are sometimes fuzzy, but they are not meaningless categories that are 100% subjective.  Outside stimuli objectively influences experience.  Eating a chocolate produces a different experience than driving a nail through your thumb.  There is a subjective element to those experiences but it is pointless to argue that they are completely subjective.

Is the experience of playing an RPG any different to you than the experience of playing a board game or miniatures war game? Is the experience of playing monopoly any different than than the experience playing D&D?

If so, why? What defines the experience of playing an RPG?

If not, why do you bother designing RPGs and why do we bother playing them?

Now, some people prefer monopoly to D&D, but that is a different argument than saying D&D and monopoly are the same and that it's only our internal experience that makes them different.

QuoteHexes/grids, combat rounds, experience points, leveling up, etc. are all weird abstractions that have nothing to do with anything actually imagined in a game world, yet are as equally abstract as are fortune points, gm resources, or momentum-style mechanics.

(emphasis mine) - they are not equally abstract.  There are layers of abstraction.  Rolling a die to hit represents a simple cause effect relationship in the imaginary world so translating from real world (rolling a die) to imaginary world (running an opponent through with a sword) is minimally disruptive to the imaginary experience.  Spending momentum from a saved pool or purchasing doom points has no simple cause effect relationship in the imaginary world, and using those mechanics requires several additional cognitive steps (layers of abstraction) such as answering the question why did I just now learn how to swim and why does the universe want to backlash against it.

QuoteIf you're judging games by these categories, what do you mean by them, and why is this distinction so important to you?

Fair question.

For me, and for anybody I have ever gamed with, there are qualities that make RPGs different, and in some ways superior to other games.  The essence oft hose qualities boils down to experiencing a shared imaginary world through the eyes of an imaginary character.  

I'm not a nut-case as Edwards would have it.  We crack jokes, eat snacks, reflect on the imaginary world OoC, and sometimes play parts of the game OoC as well.  But the goal of playing an RPG is to share an imaginary world and to experience it.

For me, mechanics with fewer levels of abstraction are better at this.  When a game regularly forces me out of imaginary experience then it suffers as an RPG because it distracts me from what I want to accomplish and from what I consider to be the essence of an RPG.  

I admit that this is a preference in play style (subjective), but the game design and mechanics are objectively more or less immersive and therefore more traditional or more narrative (or whatever).  The categories are real.  

I am not going to stamp 2d20 Conan with a label, but large parts of the game mechanics are non-immersive and non-traditional requiring OoC decisions that break the experience of the shared imagination.


Anyway.  I am not attacking here.  I am over it.  But the dead horse keeps coming back.

Quote from: Jason D;885890Please explain to me how dice, character sheets, experience points, character classes, hit points, saving throws, and gamemasters represent in-world cause and effect.

Oh snap!

Jason D, I may not eventually enjoy 2D20, but you're ability to both pimp Conan and engage actively and honestly in this thread has really impressed me. Most RPG designers would have fled days ago.

I'm totally looking forward to you writing a real RPG! :)

Quote from: Akrasia;885939So "Conan with D&D" is very much the point of C&T! :D

Somebody please start a Crypts & Things thread.

I want to hear more. Also, I want to hear comparisons / contrasts to that Astonishing Swordsman game too.

Quote from: Akrasia;885940The entire catalogue of the previous Conan RPG was too good a deal to not take.

If I read PDFs (I find that I glance at them, then forget them), I would probably be backing the KS as well.

I have an unread gig of RPG PDFs sitting on laptop and even a "Must Read" folder that I haven't opened in two years.

Quote from: Jason D;885908Hexes/grids, combat rounds, experience points, leveling up, etc. are all weird abstractions that have nothing to do with anything actually imagined in a game world, yet are as equally abstract as are fortune points, gm resources, or momentum-style mechanics.

There is a huge difference between those two groups. It's about whether or not the characters in the world can conceve of and talk about the concept and/or relationship.
Traditonal game = everything has an in-world foorprint perceivable and discussable by characters in the world. (All decisions are character facing)
Narrative game = there are mechanics, player/GM resources, etc. that have no in-world footprint and that characters in-world would have no way of perceiving. (Some decisions are player facing)

Hexes/grids = Actual visible distance to the characters
combat rounds = the perceivable passage of time
experience points = Characters can perceive their own experiences, naturally.
leveling up = That one person is more powerful than another is a concept in-world.

Whereas fortune points, gm resources, momentum-style mechanics, etc. are only perceivable as concepts to in-world characters in certain cases.

If it is established that "luck" actually exists as a force in the game universe, then fortune points could be talked about in the sense of "running out of luck," etc.

GM resources, momentum-style mechanics are not impossible to give an in-world footprint to, but they are a bit harder.

Lemme see if I can't come up with a way to turn the momentum/doom mechanic in Conan into a traditional mechanic.

Let's determine that the meta-physical nature of the Conan universe is such that there exists an all-encompassing evil force called "Dark Karma."

All living beings can feel its omnious, malicient presence, and are able to access the power of this "Dark Karma" by "opening their hearts" to it.

If a living being opens their heart to the Dark Karma, they can use its power to propel their abilities to sorcerous levels (more dice), but once you bring the Dark Karma into your life it leaves a residual power shadow that follows you around and tries to destroy you (Doom).

The scholars of the world have long known about this relationship, and people regularly discuss "opening their heart to the Dark Karma" and the "Doom" accompanying it.

In addition to this Dark Karma, there also exist minor meta-physical powers of good. They are nearly non-sentient, but they are aware enough to perceive the existance of living beings, and they want to aid living beings in their struggle against the Dark Karma. Theses beings of good want to help everyone but their attention is limited. Their attention can be drawn by experiencing elation (succeeding well at a task), and when the beings notice you, they reward you will a limited, quickly-fading source of divine power (Momentum) that hovers around you like a cloud that can be felt and drawn upon by anyone in the vicinity by "opening their heart" to it, the same as with Dark Karma.

Wham Bam Bing! Now you have a traditional game! :D

Looking at my former examples through the lens of this new world view...

Quote from: Enlightened;885797When someone spends group momentum to succeed better at picking a lock, they are succeeding BECAUSE YOU SWUNG YOUR SWORD HARDER THAN NORMAL LAST ROUND (and banked the Momentum).

When he swung his sword well, he attracted the attention of the bengin entities who granted him divine power. I could feel this power in the area as I was trying to pick the lock. I opened my heart to it, and let it divinely empower my ablities.

All completely in-character, in-world.

Quote from: Enlightened;885797And when the GM spends Doom to let the picts gain initiative, they are going first BECAUSE YOU TRIED HARDER LAST ENCOUNTER (you bought dice with Doom).

Last combat, we opened our hearts widely to the Dark Karma, and created a think cloud of Doom that maliciously seeks our demise. This dark power infused some of itself into the picts to speed them up and enrage them in order to destroy us.

All completely in-character, in-world.

Heh, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Conan 2d20 uses the same system that was developed for Mutant Chronicles 3.

In MC3, Doom is Dark Symmetry, a sentient Evil force, so using it to help you, yet give it strength, does give you that footprint.

The problem is, now taking that exact same mechanic and applying it to...
Howard's Hyborian Age, where there is no Dark Symmetry.
The setting of Infinity miniatures game, where there is no Dark Symmetry.
Burrough's John Carter of Mars, where there is no Dark Symmetry.

Now Heavy Metal, there it would have a footprint!

The only thing about Mutant Chronicles' Dark Symmetry-mechanic that makes it work as an actual Dark Symmetry-mechanic is that the rot pervades every aspect of the game:)

Quote from: Enlightened;885964Traditonal game = everything has an in-world foorprint perceivable and discussable by characters in the world. (All decisions are character facing)

Player character dialogue;

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "Hey, I'm nearly 5th level. I need just 50 more experience points, and you know, pow! I'll be stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc.

Quote from: CRKrueger;885995Heh, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Conan 2d20 uses the same system that was developed for Mutant Chronicles 3.

In MC3, Doom is Dark Symmetry, a sentient Evil force, so using it to help you, yet give it strength, does give you that footprint.

No, I didn't know that. I've never seen the game.

My idea was just an extension of what those mechanics naturally imply about the meta-physics of the universe.

Quote from: Stainless;886001Player character dialogue;

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "Hey, I'm nearly 5th level. I need just 50 more experience points, and you know, pow! I'll be stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc.

The in-world footprint for "5th level" isn't "Hey, I'm 5th level." It's "I'm more/less powerful than X."

So it would be...

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "It'll be good practice. It'll make us stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.

The following part isn't how characters would perceive it:
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc

The in-world footprint of "my turn/your turn" is just simply "everyone is active." It's abstract, but being abstract does not disqualify it from having an in-world footprint (e.g. the demostrative fact that I get to do something and he gets to do something.).

Quote from: Stainless;886001Player character dialogue;

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "Hey, I'm nearly 5th level. I need just 50 more experience points, and you know, pow! I'll be stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc.

You know there's a difference between choosing to make a decision based on that and having to make a decision based on that, right?

Quote from: CRKrueger;885945Depends on the implementation.  Usually no, but sometimes yes.

For example, in WFRP1 Fate was literally that.  There was a cosmic battle between the Chaos Gods and the Gods of the Old World and even though you were a Halfling Rat-Catcher, you were someone who was Fated to take place in that battle.  As a result, you had a Fate score, but those points could only be used to stop you from outright dying, that's it.  There was no choice for the player to make regarding them.

Some games have similar Luck mechanics that are a bit more active, in that they allow for rerolls.  Again, in some systems and settings, Luck or Karma is actually a *thing* in that setting that does have some footprint.

Fun fact, that means Tenra Bansho Zero is a completely in-universe game:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;886023Fun fact, that means Tenra Bansho Zero is a completely in-universe game:D!

Maybe, been a while since I've read the rules, not sure about the "I can't die" box. ;)

Edit: I guess it's more of a "You now have permission to kill me." box.

Having played through the QuickStart and a bit more, I can say we really have taken a liking to the system. It played very fast, players had fun choices (so did the GM :D ), and it felt like we hoped it would.

I've got big hopes for this game!

Quote from: CRKrueger;885941It's kind of funny, RPGs with narrative mechanics are one of the only sold products where you see people claiming the selling points of their product don't exist or aren't relevant.

Out of curiosity, where have you seen me say either of those things?

Quote from: CRKrueger;885995Now Heavy Metal, there it would have a footprint!

I have pitched a Heavy Metal/Metal Hurlant game at three different publishers over the years. Maybe someone will bite...

Quote from: Tush Hog;886082Having played through the QuickStart and a bit more, I can say we really have taken a liking to the system. It played very fast, players had fun choices (so did the GM :D ), and it felt like we hoped it would.

I've got big hopes for this game!

Thanks! Glad to hear it.

We have high hopes as well. As of this writing, we're on our way to becoming the 4th-highest-funded RPG Kickstarter, and we're the highest KS that Modiphius has run.

Though I really don't pay that much attention to funding as a measure of a game's quality, it's nice to see this kind of success, given that we were told that doom and ruination were certainties if we didn't change the system.

That said, there is a crushing, almost punishing amount of work to do, and I'm eager to put the Kickstarter in the rear-view mirror and get back to work making content.

Quote from: Jason D;886083Out of curiosity, where have you seen me say either of those things?

The tail end of that post was getting into games with narrative mechanics in general, but you're in the neighborhood with...

Quote from: Jason D;885908The distinction between "narrative game" and "traditional game" is pointless and abstract, meaning different things to different people.

Nathan, Benn, Lites, all have no problem admitting and even describing the narrative elements, the aspects that let you tell great Howard stories.  Nathan even admits that Cortex showed him what a non-traditional narrative system can do and he brought some of that to 2d20.

Somehow that always gets translated here as "Our game is really no different than everyone elses."

But, you and I are never going to agree on this I don't think until we get drunk in a bar somewhere and don't give a shit anymore. :D

You hit one out of the park, congratulations on the KS, so take your victory lap and then get those writers to work, the lazy dogs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;886087Somehow that always gets translated here as "Our game is really no different than everyone elses."

Well... this particular forum has some interesting biases.

Quote from: CRKrueger;886087But, you and I are never going to agree on this I don't think until we get drunk in a bar somewhere and don't give a shit anymore. :D

Should you make it to Berlin, I'm happy to buy the first pitcher.

Quote from: CRKrueger;886087You hit one out of the park, congratulations on the KS, so take your victory lap and then get those writers to work, the lazy dogs.

Thanks!

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
Somebody please start a Crypts & Things thread.

I want to hear more. Also, I want to hear comparisons / contrasts to that Astonishing Swordsman game too.

I think we could discuss it here

http://www.therpgsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=885942

Quote from: Spinachcat;885961I want to hear more. Also, I want to hear comparisons / contrasts to that Astonishing Swordsman game too.

Think AD&D 1e with Amazons, Atlanteans and Hyperboreans instead of dwarves, elves and halflings, 17 character classes such as Berserker, Necromancer and Scout, a bestiary that includes Cthulhu Mythos monsters and no dragons, and a kick-ass sword & sorcery setting gazetteer.

It strikes a mid-point of sorts between emulating Conanesque pulp fantasy and staying true to D&D. Magic is still "straight" D&D Magic, for instance. Orcs have been reimagined as demon-blooded Picts. And so on. If Clark Ashton Smith ran an AD&D 1e game, this would be it, with Robert E. Howard playing a Kimmeri-Kelt Barbarian and H. P. Lovecraft playing an Atlantean Illusionist. Robert Bloch plays an Amazon Assassin but only shows up occasionally, as does Derleth with his insufferable Special Snowflake half-Hyperborean, half-Pict Warlock.

One hour left, the $56 USD pledge currently stands at...

40 Conan d20 PDFs
15 Conan 2d20 PDFs (with Conan the King easily within reach)
and other stuff

We're down to the last 20 minutes, and the campaign is now the #4th-highest grossing RPG on Kickstarter, and the most successful of the five campaigns Modiphius has run.

There are still some stretch goals, and still some things we will save for later announcements over the next year or so.

So I'm pretty pleased, overall.

I'll take the rest of the evening off, once that timer hits 0, and then tomorrow morning it's time to get back to work!

When you take your night off, don't forget the wine and wenches.

Quote from: CRKrueger;886026Maybe, been a while since I've read the rules, not sure about the "I can't die" box. ;)

Edit: I guess it's more of a "You now have permission to kill me." box.

I was referring to Karma, Aiki and Kiai:). The "Lethal" box is the thing that players always check first, so in practice it always felt more like getting extra bonuses for the pleasure of playing a normal game:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;886154When you take your night off, don't forget the wine and wenches.

+1 to that!

Quote from: Spinachcat;885961Somebody please start a Crypts & Things thread.

I want to hear more. Also, I want to hear comparisons / contrasts to that Astonishing Swordsman game too.

Well, there was this thread a few months ago:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=33696

:D

Thank you Akrasia!

Hmm, well, I'm glad that getting Mongoose to donate all those PDFs to the Kickstarter got people interested in backing, but...

I don't know.  I mean, I'm probably being very uncharitable here, but if the system could stand on it's own, why did they feel the need to do that?

Maybe, it's not that, maybe they just wanted to bundle both systems together, but the problem I'm seeing is that...  Am I going to be the ONLY person who thinks that?

Personally, I would have preferred if the KS (which from I could tell was going to succeed anyway) to stand on its own two feet.

I dunno.  I'm happy it got funded, I may not like the system, but doesn't mean that the game shouldn't be made.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;886747I don't know.  I mean, I'm probably being very uncharitable here, but if the system could stand on it's own, why did they feel the need to do that?

I expect it was because 7th Sea did it and that KS reached an astronomical $1.3 million.

The difference is that 7th Sea owned the 1e PDFs and they were for a new edition of the same RPG. I wonder if Modiphius had to pay for the d20 PDFs?

Quote from: Skywalker;886764I expect it was because 7th Sea did it and that KS reached an astronomical $1.3 million.

The difference is that 7th Sea owned the 1e PDFs and they were for a new edition of the same RPG. I wonder if Modiphius had to pay for the d20 PDFs?

That's why I would not bring it up at the 7th Sea.  Again, I just wish that the 2D20 one didn't, it muddies the water for actual facts.

It was a no-brainer.

A great many people (including many on this very forum) are fond of the d20 version of the game and hoped we'd offer conversion rules.

Conversion rules for a system whose books are no longer in distribution and no longer available legally via .pdf doesn't make much sense, does it?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;886747Hmm, well, I'm glad that getting Mongoose to donate all those PDFs to the Kickstarter got people interested in backing, but...

I don't know.  I mean, I'm probably being very uncharitable here, but if the system could stand on it's own, why did they feel the need to do that?

Maybe, it's not that, maybe they just wanted to bundle both systems together, but the problem I'm seeing is that...  Am I going to be the ONLY person who thinks that?

Personally, I would have preferred if the KS (which from I could tell was going to succeed anyway) to stand on its own two feet.

I dunno.  I'm happy it got funded, I may not like the system, but doesn't mean that the game shouldn't be made.

I treat it as "extra setting material I might decide to use or not". I'm likely to never use it, but I'm also glad that people who would like to have them now have access to them:).

Quote from: Jason D;886812It was a no-brainer.

A great many people (including many on this very forum) are fond of the d20 version of the game and hoped we'd offer conversion rules.

Conversion rules for a system whose books are no longer in distribution and no longer available legally via .pdf doesn't make much sense, does it?

I'm positive I never hoped for conversion rules for d20, thank you very much;).

Quote from: Jason D;886812It was a no-brainer.

A great many people (including many on this very forum) are fond of the d20 version of the game and hoped we'd offer conversion rules.

Conversion rules for a system whose books are no longer in distribution and no longer available legally via .pdf doesn't make much sense, does it?

This.

It's really cool to offer the material and how to convert previous d20 stuff to the new system.