Quote from: Necrozius;879972Hey Jason: limited budget here. Can I make do with just the core book to run a campaign in this setting? Are the supplementary books just further fleshing out of these Nations or are they pretty much needed if the PCs decide to visit Stygia  (or whatever)? In other words, can one of my players pick a thief archetype without the book on thief campaigns?

The core book will have decent overviews of each country, and the core rules provide enough information for you to handle any type of campaign you'd like, assuming you don't want to go into the nitty-gritty of that particular playstyle.

For example, the core book's lifepaths allow a character to have a lifepath that grooms your character for nobility, but does not prohibit the player from choosing to play a thief. The lifepaths in Conan the Thief will be much more focused, with characters inevitably ending up on the wrong side of the law and having backgrounds that shape them towards that specific goal.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882232Ok, yeah someone pointed that out, but 0 level human is a shopkeeper, maybe a town guardsman.  I can't remember one of my fighters ever fighting Zero-level guys.  But the rule is there, unlikely as you are to use it while adventuring.

Does any Pict that makes it to adulthood and become a warrior count as a zero-level character?  Howard's "barbarian vs. civilization" theme would suggest otherwise.

For that matter, does it seem true to Beyond the Black River to have an Aquilonian Knight, a Nemedian Mercenary, and Hyperborean easily detect a group of Picts trying to ambush them and then beat 6 Picts without taking a scratch?  Balthus was a Forester from the Tauran, his skills would be superior to most Hyborians and he got surprised every time by the Picts.  Only Conan even had a chance to detect them and even he got surprised once.

The Picts in Beyond the Black River are scary.  The ones in the QuickStart and the Combat example are very underwhelming.  Not Howardian at all.

Oh, and we need stats on Slasher.

I'll have to admit to some cognitive dissonance here.

You're arguing that Picts are poorly-represented as Minions, and you keep bringing up "Beyond the Black River".

Remember how that ends?

Quote"If the youth Balthus and old Slasher hadn't held them up awhile, they'd have butchered every woman and child in Conajohara. I passed the place where Balthus and the dog made their last stand. They were lying amid a heap of dead Picts--I counted seven, brained by his ax, or disemboweled by the dog's fangs, and there were others in the road with arrows sticking in them. Gods, what a fight that must have been!"

One young forester and a dog took out seven Picts in hand-to-hand combat and others in the moments before the fight.

At a minimum, that's a fight of two killing at least nine.

The PCs in the quickstart are assume to be heroic characters, whereas Balthus might be considered a talented newcomer, but not the level of a PC.  

You've made your point that you don't like mook rules, but your point of reference as to why they don't work demonstrates the very opposite position.

Quote from: Jason D;882245I'll have to admit to some cognitive dissonance here.

You're arguing that Picts are poorly-represented as Minions, and you keep bringing up "Beyond the Black River".

Remember how that ends?



One young forester and a dog took out seven Picts in hand-to-hand combat and others in the moments before the fight.

At a minimum, that's a fight of two killing at least nine.

The PCs in the quickstart are assume to be heroic characters, whereas Balthus might be considered a talented newcomer, but not the level of a PC.  

You've made your point that you don't like mook rules, but your point of reference as to why they don't work demonstrates the very opposite position.

The dog killed three before the final charge, leaving four+, and both were killed in that battle.  

2 vs. 6 TPK
3 vs. 6 not a scratch.
Slightly different.

Also Conan at that point in his life has been through most of his stories, traveled to the East and back and spent years as a pirate and mercenary.  Surely you're not suggesting starting PCs are supposed to mimic his performance.

The problem with games that use Mook Rules is, there's always Mooks in every encounter, there's no sense of scale.

Brythunian town militia, they're all Mooks if you insist for some reason you must have Mooks.  The Black Dragons are probably all Elites or mostly PC level.

Instead of minions and elites, elites and mighty foes would be better for a good fight.  Hell, even minions would be better without Mob rules.  Mob rules are one thing in games with auto fire, but they're awkward as hell in Melee.  On the attack, you have to assume they can somehow always team up, and on the defense, what they all parry together and fail so get chopped down in one attack?

QuoteI counted seven, brained by his ax, or disemboweled by the dog's fangs, and there were others in the road with arrows sticking in them. Gods, what a fight that must have been!"

I think this is an excellent argument and example, Jason.  I'm in the middle of moving and don't have my books with me or I would take it up more fully.

Of course, the character above who spoke in such astonishment didn't realize that there were mook rules involved, if he did, it wouldn't have been worth mentioning!

Quote from: Jason D;882245I'll have to admit to some cognitive dissonance here.

The discussion seems to have reached a stall point created by some largely incompatible view points on things like immersion, abstraction, how mechanics interact with setting and what the "ideal" Conan game should be. But honestly, its starting to sound like a "I don't like cupcakes, why aren't they brownies?" debate.

Roleplaying vs. Storytelling
Playing in a setting vs. Playing in a story

The game is obviously the latter of both of those, but no matter which it is, the title is billed as the most Howard accurate game there is.

Cimmerians and Picts are age-old enemies.  If you're the Soviet Union, your main adversary isn't Lichtenstein.  The Cimmerians are one of the strongest, most barbaric races in Hyboria (and in Howard's world, barbarian means better).  Their age old enemy isn't a race of Mooks, it's a race that despite their smaller size and primitive technology, is even more barbaric and savage.

Think of how well the native Americans fought with bows and hatchets against rifles.  Now take away the rifles and fight them.

The Picts are a race that once they get steel, are destined to conquer most of the West.

Even in a game with Minions and Mobs, they shouldn't always apply.

Also, they've been hearing similar things about the system said everywhere the game is being discussed, to the point where understandably they won't make a second system version, but might put out some alternate options to deal with these concerns.

Firstly, I am a huge R.E.H fan and most of my gaming for several years have been me running adventures set in the Hyborian Age. I am a fairly simple creature. So Barbarians of Lemuria became my to-go system for Conan. I also got the big yellow BRP book for running Hyborian Age games since it also is quite straight forward and for the times I want a bit more gritty details. And I 'get' it in a way I never could decipher Mongoose Conan.  And I also dabbled with various other systems to fuel my Conan gaming. Be it Jaws of the Six Serpents , On Mighty Thews, Savage Worlds, Fate Accelerated, ZeFRS, OSR s&s games like Crypts and Things and Crimson Blades etc. Anything that seems to be able to handle Hyborian Age fast paced, easy to learn and give a lot of freedom for both players and gm to improvise is on my radar.

1. The game is simply too complex to be fast paced with all those points to keep track of,  and all those conditions to refill them. Combat feels just sluggish slow moving, too much to keep track of for me without set piece battles which adds nothing special worth the hazzle or investment. Too many rolls , too many moving parts that integrates  very closely to the point pool mechanic. It is very fiddly in both ends of the system. Even if you could tear out the point-economy, there is some serious meaty parts to the basic 2d20 system itself. And you may call me dumb and stupid but neither me or my players understands the big selling point about this system. We have done the Quickstart, watched the playtest videos etc. It feels like hammering a square into a triangular hole. It is just not a good fit for the genre.  But it could be! I would say that in its MC3 adaption, it seems far better for what it is trying to do. I dont like it. But I do think it does seems genre appropriate for that universe. The Dark Symmetry dice, heavy detailed mechanics and tuned in with the warzone miniatures line etc. I just wish the developers would have put the same effort to make it more genre appropriate for Conan. And that would demand to kill some darlings.

2: Since the mechanics are so finely integrated with each other, modularity seems like needing total system rewrite. I just wish there could be some kind of appendix with guidelines for running this game with less focus on mechanics, and giving more space for actual storytelling without straightjacket. So options to streamline gameplay and table time.1-2 hours combat encounters that demand set piece terrain and minis is just not what I want for Hyborian Age campaign's. Even if someone else find it super simple and easy, good for you, but I have already kickstarted the Monolith Conan game for that experiance. Just give us slacker gamers a bone and I'll happily devour the whole product line.

Let it be clear also that I have no particular problem with narrative mechanics per se, or any problem with mook rules as such. I have both  in my games.  I just cant see how this new Conan game could be for someone like me. And sure, there is no obligation to please my personal tastes, so fine as well. But I cant think that I am in some way a uniqe snowflake. As in : A dude just loving sword&sorcery games and rpgs in general, with a very soft spot for the Hyborian Age setting, looking for a rules light genre emulation game.

Yeah, they've been taking hits from both sides.
1. Lot of people don't like Narrative rules.
2. Lot of people that do like narrative rules don't like much crunch.

Have to say they've been doing a bang up job of not just saying, "Well, bye." but actually looking to engage.

Oh and welcome Teodrik even though you're an infidel and filthy mook-lover.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882280Have to say they've been doing a bang up job of not just saying, "Well, bye." but actually looking to engage.

Oh and welcome Teodrik even though you're an infidel and filthy mook-lover.

 I am just a slacker gamer dabbling on the oh so sweet borderlands to the dark side   . Mooks is just a means to an end: Less paperwork.

And thanks by the way

Quote from: CRKrueger;882280Have to say they've been doing a bang up job of not just saying, "Well, bye." but actually looking to engage.

Thanks, but yeah, at this point it's one of those cases were it's clear that there's not any easy way to make these brownies please the lemon bar aficionados, so we're just going to stick with adding more chocolate and maybe throwing in some walnuts.

Quote from: AsenRG;882220I understand that creating another Conan system doesn't make sense for Modiphius. How about releasing the systemless parts of it, though, as systemless setting books?

This would be great. I very likely would pick up any such systemless books.

Quote from: Akrasia;882307This would be great. I very likely would pick up any such systemless books.

This would be fantastic.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882280Yeah, they've been taking hits from both sides.
1. Lot of people don't like Narrative rules.
2. Lot of people that do like narrative rules don't like much crunch.

I think 2. is broader than that and includes:

2. Lot of people that do like narrative rules don't like competitive crunch.

Saw this in the QuickStart and now in the example:

Do I understand correctly that it's easier for an Elite warrior to sneak up on a position when accompanied by a mob than when operating all alone?

Quote from: Arminius;882336Saw this in the QuickStart and now in the example:

Do I understand correctly that it's easier for an Elite warrior to sneak up on a position when accompanied by a mob than when operating all alone?

Yeap.