From the WotC press release (http://dorkland.blogspot.com/2011/08/dungeons-dragons-returns-to-legendary.html):
QuoteNeverwinter Campaign Setting – The Neverwinter Campaign Setting is the ultimate encyclopedia on the inner workings of the city of Neverwinter, containing everything from history and geography to character themes. It is the first-ever RPG book focused solely on one city and conveniently presents Neverwinter content in a single hardcover format containing information for both players and DMs.
What the fuck?
Quote from: Benoist;473256From the WotC press release (http://dorkland.blogspot.com/2011/08/dungeons-dragons-returns-to-legendary.html):
What the fuck?
Yeah that's pretty fucking hilarious. Even the 4vengers have to be facepalming at that one.
What kind of assclown writes this?
Quote from: Benoist;473259What kind of assclown writes this?
My guess? Someone who isn't very familiar with D&D. Probably someone who is writing the press release from the talking points of a meeting.
Quote from: CRKrueger;473257Yeah that's pretty fucking hilarious. Even the 4vengers have to be facepalming at that one.
No, the 4vengers are defending it and making excuses for it.
Did they forget about Waterdeep ? Tredroy? ...and at least a dozen others?
- Ed C.
I think this was ment to say first 4th edition campaign book focused on a city but the idiots who wrote it messed p and nobody would admit the fault so they just went ahead and released it figuring the only people who would complain probably dont play 4e anyway so dont matter.
A charitable explanation is they forgot a "this" in the ad copy. As in "...focused solely on this one city." Or something like that.
The Assclown explanation is that they don't give a crap about the history RPGs, or even their own IP and just write whatever the hell they think will sell units.
There's a vast excluded middle in there as well.
From there on RPGnet: (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?586962-Seriously-WotC&p=14238915#post14238915)
QuoteI e-mailed them about this yesterday. I got a reply from customer service explaining that Neverwinter was the first single book focused on a single city, all previous efforts had been boxed sets.
I pointed out half a dozen counterexamples, including one from their own company, and they replied that they had "forwarded [my] feedback to the appropriate team."
Edit: Based on this response, it wasn't a typo. They actually claimed that a single book focusing on a single city was some new innovation to the field of roleplaying.
WotC? You guys are brilliant. Brilliant. Bravo.
No sense of history.
C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute. :)
The latest in a string of bumblings that make me feel like I'm watching a movie where Chris Farley's character has inherited the company that publishes D&D...
WotC loves revisionist history. Didn't they say last year that Forgotten Realms was the first campaign setting?
Quote from: danbuter;473272WotC loves revisionist history. Didn't they say last year that Forgotten Realms was the first campaign setting?
In the 4E PHB actually, back in 2008. But yeah, that's a pattern.
Poor Judges Guild.
Quote from: Planet Algol;473278Poor Judges Guild.
Both versions, the original and Necromancers. This whole thing is insipid even for Wizards.
It's like they're not even trying anymore.
I'm not a big fan of the 3E era but at least they evidenced some genuine enthusiasm back then.
Was anyone else watching the rpg.net thread unfold? It seems to start off with lots of rolled eyes and lols at WOTC and suchlike when it opened in tabletop roleplaying-open - did it shift to mega-butthurt mode there or was that after it got moved to the D&D Ghetto?
I'm just interested in case this says anything positive about the TRO people, even though the other subforum has clearly evolved into a massive fanboy wankfest for the 4E 4eva/3E is broken/2E sucks crowd.
Wizards of the Coast clueless about developments in the field outside their company.
Film at 11.
Quote from: J Arcane;473285Wizards of the Coast clueless about developments in the field outside their company.
Sharn, City of Towers, is a city book (not boxed set, book) that's been published
recently by Wizards itself.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;473283Was anyone else watching the rpg.net thread unfold? It seems to start off with lots of rolled eyes and lols at WOTC and suchlike when it opened in tabletop roleplaying-open - did it shift to mega-butthurt mode there or was that after it got moved to the D&D Ghetto?
I'm just interested in case this says anything positive about the TRO people, even though the other subforum has clearly evolved into a massive fanboy wankfest for the 4E 4eva/3E is broken/2E sucks crowd.
Keefe the Thief and his buddies started questioning anything and everything, that people are overreacting, that Wizards just forgot a word like "this" as in "first supplement ever focused on THIS one city" and the like. Back and forth ensued. Thread got shot down, with a ban. What else is new? These guys know their routines when they want to shut down a conversation.
Quote from: Benoist;473286Sharn, City of Towers, is a city book (not boxed set, book) that's been published recently by Wizards itself.
For 3.5.
Don't you know that game was rubbish? Try to keep up with the corporate narrative. ;)
:jaw-dropping:
ohh the humanity...:teehee:
Quote from: J Arcane;473288For 3.5.
Don't you know that game was rubbish? Try to keep up with the corporate narrative. ;)
Right! We might have been speaking about another corp. I should have remembered. My mistake! :D
Quote from: danbuter;473272WotC loves revisionist history. Didn't they say last year that Forgotten Realms was the first campaign setting?
Yes, and it was an editorial slip, as I once documented here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=304230&postcount=8). In short, all the editor was to do was copy paste some extant text, and shorten it a bit without distorting the meaning too much. Apparently that was too tall an order.
I guess the same happened here. A hapless editor (or hey, let's make that: the janitor) was given the task at short notice.
I already surmised in the other thread that this book is a hack job that the actual staff at WotC have little to do with, as they probably got their dirty hands on something Bigger.
As for Keefe the Thieve and co., that's to be expected. They went for the same bullshit defenses in 2008 and will do now. These occasions serve a very useful purpose, however, as they permanently discredit such a poster even to those who weren't around to draw that conclusion on previous occasions.
The city of Hollowfaust begs to differ....
and lets not forget Warhammer City: Middenheim, a book released 24 years ago, probably before the marketing intern who wrote that copy was born.
So what was the first RPG city suppliment?
I can't see a difference between a book and a box with a book and a map in it to be honest so what is the earliest anyone here played?
I know Lankhmar came out in '85 but I was playing Thieves' World in '82 (well until the PCs burnt Sanctuary to the ground in about mid '83 :) ) and I think it was prolly released in the US in '81 ??
So what is the earliest commercially released City ?
So I have since googled and City State of the Invincble Overlord is (of course) the obvious winner (unless someone knows different). Judge's Guild distribution in the UK was awful so though we heard rumours I never saw stuff for sale until the eary 80s and by then everyone else was doing things with far better production values so ...
Quote from: Windjammer;473306I guess the same happened here. A hapless editor (or hey, let's make that: the janitor) was given the task at short notice.
I blogged about this weirdness the day I first saw the press release. I figured it was either yet another example of clueless marketing people writing hype for something they knew nothing about or an attempt by WOTC to rewrite history again. Given the poor manner in which 4e was marketed at the start, my money would be on marketing.
Yeah, as a recovering 'lowercase 4' 4venger, WotC has been bugging the hell out of me for the past year. I thought they were onto something and had things figured out with Essentials and Gamma World, but they've been running around like headless chickens and throwing spaghetti at the wall, hoping something will stick, with the D&D line ever since.
At this point, I think it's best to let it die for a year or two and do a reboot.
Quote from: Benoist;473287Keefe the Thief and his buddies started questioning anything and everything, that people are overreacting, that Wizards just forgot a word like "this" as in "first supplement ever focused on THIS one city" and the like. Back and forth ensued. Thread got shot down, with a ban. What else is new? These guys know their routines when they want to shut down a conversation.
And that wasn't enough. If you look at the Trouble Tickets thread, they wanted BLOOD. It isn't enough to shut down a thread critical of WotC; you have to go after the ones responsible, ensuring they never post on the topic again.
That's a standard M.O. for a group of posters who have a certain zealot's defense in place for WotC.
Quote from: jibbajibba;473322So what was the first RPG city suppliment?
City State of the Invincible Overlord.
In other news, soon from WotC: the first book EVER with WORDS inside.
You wanted it, WotC did it for you. Just for you.
Love, WotC.
Let’s not forget the other exciting titles coming soon from WotC!
Tome of Things Your Character Might Purchase (160pp)
Coming September 2011
For the first time in recorded RPG history, a book all about additional weapons, items, equipment, and treasure! Now your characters will have something to spend all that gold on!
Return To The Return To The Tomb of Horrors (48pp)
Coming October 2011
For the first time in recorded RPG history, here’s an incredibly challenging dungeon to your players! Since the hobby was invented in the early spring of 2008, no dungeon has been as deadly! D&D will also introduce traps, a new challenge that should confuse and entertain all but the most min/maxed of characters!
Drow With Two Swords And A Magical Goddamn Panther Trilogy (TBD)
Coming November 2011
Supplementing the incredible lore of this new Forgotten Realms setting (originally created by Ari Marmell) comes a groundbreaking fantasy trilogy. Witness as a noble-hearted drow attempts to leave the evils of an underground matriarchal realm and live a life of goodness and freedom in Faerun. Fortunately, a stout dwarf, powerful barbarian, mischievous halfling, and an appropriate love interest will accompany him each step of the way. We at WotC can guarantee you this is the first time gaming fiction has been in print! Join us for the founding of a new genre!
Greyhawk Campaign Setting (224pp)
Coming December 2011
Prepare yourself. For the first time ever, an entire fantasy campaign world, fresh from the fertile mind of Rich Baker and mapped in intricate detail and described before your very eyes. After the Mageblight Moon crashes into The Flanaess, this world of high magic is cast into a cataclysm where only those wearing spiky armor and an inordinate amount of decorative buckles can hope to survive. Explore the enchanted city of Greyhawk, now caught in a terrible civil war between its Dragonborn and Warforged factions!
Quote from: Zachary The First;473366Greyhawk Campaign Setting (224pp)
Coming December 2011
Prepare yourself. For the first time ever, an entire fantasy campaign world, fresh from the fertile mind of Rich Baker and mapped in intricate detail and described before your very eyes. After the Mageblight Moon crashes into The Flanaess, this world of high magic is cast into a cataclysm where only those wearing spiky armor and an inordinate amount of decorative buckles can hope to survive. Explore the enchanted city of Greyhawk, now caught in a terrible civil war between its Dragonborn and Warforged factions!
I just about
died reading that. :p
Quote from: Zachary The First;473366Let's not forget the other exciting titles coming soon from WotC!
Tome of Things Your Character Might Purchase (160pp)
Coming September 2011
Return To The Return To The Tomb of Horrors (48pp)
Coming October 2011
Drow With Two Swords And A Magical Goddamn Panther Trilogy (TBD)
Coming November 2011
I would laugh if it weren't so true. No, fuck it, I'm laughing my ass off because it
is true.
QuoteGreyhawk Campaign Setting (224pp)
Coming December 2011
Prepare yourself. For the first time ever, an entire fantasy campaign world, fresh from the fertile mind of Rich Baker and mapped in intricate detail and described before your very eyes. After the Mageblight Moon crashes into The Flanaess, this world of high magic is cast into a cataclysm where only those wearing spiky armor and an inordinate amount of decorative buckles can hope to survive. Explore the enchanted city of Greyhawk, now caught in a terrible civil war between its Dragonborn and Warforged factions!
This made me cry just a little bit on the inside because it's entirely plausible.
One can also mention the CoC supplements about Arkham, Kingsport etc., but it would be like firing on the Red Cross. However, if one really wants to fire on the Red Cross all that's needed is...
Quoteand conveniently presents Neverwinter content in a single hardcover format containing information for both players and DMs.
...To point out how, usually, info for the DM and the players is
conveniently put in different books. :teehee:
Quote from: Zachary The First;473366Greyhawk Campaign Setting (224pp)
Coming December 2011
Prepare yourself. For the first time ever, an entire fantasy campaign world, fresh from the fertile mind of Rich Baker and mapped in intricate detail and described before your very eyes. After the Mageblight Moon crashes into The Flanaess, this world of high magic is cast into a cataclysm where only those wearing spiky armor and an inordinate amount of decorative buckles can hope to survive. Explore the enchanted city of Greyhawk, now caught in a terrible civil war between its Dragonborn and Warforged factions!
Nailed it!
You know how far the mighty WotC has fallen when they start trying to rewrite history.
or you-know, it actually was a typo.
Yes, I made a similar mistake. I meant to text my ex girlfriend and say "how have you been?" But I accidentally typed "You ruined my life you fucking bitch! I hope you burn in Hell!" Just a simple typo.
You should be on the stage.
Quote from: One Horse Town;473482You should be on the stage.
I thought that was what this was.
Quote from: jeff37923;473485I thought that was what this was.
Sweeping it!
Hang on, that didn't quite work...
Seems to me that in this instance it's hysteria in a teacup.
Quote from: JRR;473481Yes, I made a similar mistake. I meant to text my ex girlfriend and say "how have you been?" But I accidentally typed "You ruined my life you fucking bitch! I hope you burn in Hell!" Just a simple typo.
Quote from: One Horse Town;473482You should be on the stage.
LOL But, but... that
was funny! :D
Quote from: One Horse Town;473474or you-know, it actually was a typo.
But that's the thing. If any other RPG company had put out such a press release and it'd be brought to attention online, within hours Mongoose' Pete or Paizo's Liza would be online and say 'Ah sorry, yes embarassing, it was a typo, our fault.' and the world would go on.
But not WotC. People contacted WotC customer services and the response they got is pretty much the opposite of (and in fact
inconsistent with) 'it was just a typo'. And don't you think that high and almighty Mearls & co. (who's Scot Rouse' successor anyway?) would go online and tweet 20 words to make the whole thing go away. Oh noooes.
And that's the catch. There's this meme that RPG fans are out to get WotC and wouldn't care (or care much less) if any other RPG company had mishandled their press release.
That's a classic reversal of cause and effect. We get this (shit)storm in a teapot over WotC time and again because they are pretty much the only RPG company of any note to mishandle these affairs so spectacularly, time and again. And they fail to face it up, time and again, and fail to dissolve things in an easygoing straight forward manner.
In fact, they only have two ways of dealing with these things. Pretending it didn't happen, or whopping out their big boy and give bullshit answers to serious questions. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254142-actual-interview-wizards-coast-ceo.html)
Now show me one other RPG company which does that.
Quote from: Windjammer;473577Now show me one other RPG company which does that.
(Not an rpg company).
Microsoft back in the mid-late 1990's? :rolleyes:
If it was a typo they should do the minute amount of manning-up it takes to say "that was a typo". Instead of trying to cover it up with the most idiotic statement in their company history.
Seriously, the stupid, it burns.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Zachary The First;473366Let's not forget the other exciting titles coming soon from WotC!
Tome of Things Your Character Might Purchase (160pp)
Coming September 2011
For the first time in recorded RPG history, a book all about additional weapons, items, equipment, and treasure! Now your characters will have something to spend all that gold on!
Return To The Return To The Tomb of Horrors (48pp)
Coming October 2011
For the first time in recorded RPG history, here's an incredibly challenging dungeon to your players! Since the hobby was invented in the early spring of 2008, no dungeon has been as deadly! D&D will also introduce traps, a new challenge that should confuse and entertain all but the most min/maxed of characters!
Drow With Two Swords And A Magical Goddamn Panther Trilogy (TBD)
Coming November 2011
Supplementing the incredible lore of this new Forgotten Realms setting (originally created by Ari Marmell) comes a groundbreaking fantasy trilogy. Witness as a noble-hearted drow attempts to leave the evils of an underground matriarchal realm and live a life of goodness and freedom in Faerun. Fortunately, a stout dwarf, powerful barbarian, mischievous halfling, and an appropriate love interest will accompany him each step of the way. We at WotC can guarantee you this is the first time gaming fiction has been in print! Join us for the founding of a new genre!
Greyhawk Campaign Setting (224pp)
Coming December 2011
Prepare yourself. For the first time ever, an entire fantasy campaign world, fresh from the fertile mind of Rich Baker and mapped in intricate detail and described before your very eyes. After the Mageblight Moon crashes into The Flanaess, this world of high magic is cast into a cataclysm where only those wearing spiky armor and an inordinate amount of decorative buckles can hope to survive. Explore the enchanted city of Greyhawk, now caught in a terrible civil war between its Dragonborn and Warforged factions!
Quoting this post for repetition. ;)
There are tribesmen in the Amazonian rainforest who know more about the history of D&D than the WOTC gang.
They should just punt and sell the damn IP to someone who knows what to do with it.
Quote from: Zachary The First;473366Let's not forget the other exciting titles coming soon from WotC!
I wish I could sig this entire post.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;473625I wish I could sig this entire post.
Thanks for the compliment!
My god man, what were they thinking?!! How can the largest gaming company in the world be this incompetent at this sort of thing?!!
RPGPundit
Quote from: Pete;473334Yeah, as a recovering 'lowercase 4' 4venger, WotC has been bugging the hell out of me for the past year. I thought they were onto something and had things figured out with Essentials and Gamma World, but they've been running around like headless chickens and throwing spaghetti at the wall, hoping something will stick, with the D&D line ever since.
At this point, I think it's best to let it die for a year or two and do a reboot.
Yeah, that was kind of my thought as well.
I liked the original 4e game (despite that their marketing, and I don't just mean communications, was horrible from day 1), but they are flailing like crazy at the moment and I really don't understand how it is good for the brand or the company to never have a single, consistent focus for the product.
Quote from: RPGPundit;473894My god man, what were they thinking?!! How can the largest gaming company in the world be this incompetent at this sort of thing?!!
RPGPundit
Maybe
because they are the largest company in the world...
Quote from: Benoist;473267From there on RPGnet:
(http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?586962-Seriously-WotC&p=14238915#post14238915)QuoteI e-mailed them about this yesterday. I got a reply from customer service explaining that Neverwinter was the first single book focused on a single city, all previous efforts had been boxed sets.
[/URL]
There goes my "they may have meant it to say the first book on Neverwinter" theory. :hmm: Well, whatever, there are better things to be concerned with. [edit]Like, say, I reread
Khare: Cityport of Traps on my vacation last week. It was published in the
Steve Jackson's Sorcery! gamebook line, and shows it was written for a young audience, and some of the encounters require a
major suspension of disbelief, but damn it is one fine city, and John Blanche's art really gives it its seedy character. There should be more cities like that for role-playing games.[/edit]
Quote from: Melan;473923Like, say, I reread Khare: Cityport of Traps on my vacation last week. It was published in the Steve Jackson's Sorcery! gamebook line, and shows it was written for a young audience, and some of the encounters require a major suspension of disbelief, but damn it is one fine city, and John Blanche's art really gives it its seedy character. There should be more cities like that for role-playing games.
Oh yes - the Fighting Fantasy cities, like Blacksand and Khare are awesome. I remember buying the Danish version of Khare: Cityports of Traps when I was around 15, and can still vividly remember art from the book, like the youths with fireball eyes and the bearded undead coming apart, with each appendix attacking you, or that Mindflayer lookalike with a meatcleaver, standing in his kitchen! Gotta look for that book next time I visit my parents.
Both Khare and Blacksands operate under the wonderful conceit of a "hive of scum and villany" as an urban dungeon; something that seems to be sorely underutilized in RPG cities aside from the City State of the Invincible Overlord, and to a somewhat lesser degree Zothay and Vornheim. Not to denigrate the two aforementioned products, but they don't have the explicit "city as dungeoncrawl vibe" possessed by the Fighting Fantasy books and the CSIO.
Sure. Actually, one of my reasons for rereading Khare was to pick up ideas for my next campaign - implementing the "city-as-dungeoncrawl" aspect was one of the things that fascinated me. It is actually not very easy; there are a few tricks like using
City Encounters (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/corerulesproducts.htm) and its companion volume for nighttime encounters (mine; currently Hungarian only, and TBR), but a complex, living environment:
- either produces very high "scene complexity", making it hard to GM,
- or you can end up with too much abstraction, with the PCs zigzagging through the city between points (hubs) of adventure.
Khare did give some very good ideas, though.
Well, the ironfisted railroading certainly keeps Khare and Blacksands manageable. Another conceit that works in their favour is "The hive of scum and villany as mythic underworld," these shitholes are so far beyond the pale that they don't operate according to logic and reason.
Also City Encounters is a fine, fine volume and highly useful for more than city encounters. In my last session in a wilderness environment it was used with wonderfully sardonic effect.
Quote from: Zachary The First;473366Let's not forget the other exciting titles coming soon from WotC!
Drow With Two Swords And A Magical Goddamn Panther Trilogy (TBD)
Coming November 2011
Supplementing the incredible lore of this new Forgotten Realms setting (originally created by Ari Marmell) comes a groundbreaking fantasy trilogy. Witness as a noble-hearted drow attempts to leave the evils of an underground matriarchal realm and live a life of goodness and freedom in Faerun. Fortunately, a stout dwarf, powerful barbarian, mischievous halfling, and an appropriate love interest will accompany him each step of the way. We at WotC can guarantee you this is the first time gaming fiction has been in print! Join us for the founding of a new genre!
The whole post was great, but this one slew me.
Quote from: Windjammer;473577In fact, they only have two ways of dealing with these things. Pretending it didn't happen, or whopping out their big boy and give bullshit answers to serious questions. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254142-actual-interview-wizards-coast-ceo.html)
Now show me one other RPG company which does that.
Ha! Haven't read that in a while. :) I remember typing that out 15 minuted prior to a pnp dnd game at my brother's house.
Quote from: RPGPundit;473894My god man, what were they thinking?!! How can the largest gaming company in the world be this incompetent at this sort of thing?!!
RPGPundit
I think they fired pretty much anyone who had any history with the company or with dnd in general.
Quote from: Melan;473923There goes my "they may have meant it to say the first book on Neverwinter" theory. :hmm: Well, whatever, there are better things to be concerned with. [edit]Like, say, I reread Khare: Cityport of Traps on my vacation last week. It was published in the Steve Jackson's Sorcery! gamebook line, and shows it was written for a young audience, and some of the encounters require a major suspension of disbelief, but damn it is one fine city, and John Blanche's art really gives it its seedy character. There should be more cities like that for role-playing games.[/edit]
Was their own book, "City of Stormreach" somehow not a hardcover focused on a single city?
I stand corrected, they are idiots.
Quote from: kythri;473985Was their own book, "City of Stormreach" somehow not a hardcover focused on a single city?
That only counts if they say it counts.
I guess the Hammerfast book they did just last year doesn't count either? Maybe because it's a "town" or "dwarven outpost" and not a "city"?
Talk about weasel words.
Quote from: jgants;474059I guess the Hammerfast book they did just last year doesn't count either?
Wow, that was even a 4e product. That makes it officially the biggest unforced error of the year.
Quote from: Benoist;473916Maybe because they are the largest company in the world...
Yep. I'm betting the copy was written by a marketing intern who has never played an RPG, based on notes she took at a meeting between texting to her friends how bored she was by all this geek shit.
The bigger a company gets, the more the marketing, editorial, and support staff are divorced from the core product.
Quote from: jgants;474059I guess the Hammerfast book they did just last year doesn't count either? Maybe because it's a "town" or "dwarven outpost" and not a "city"?
Talk about weasel words.
Either the original press release or a customer service response shortly afterward clarified that they meant "the first
hardcover book". So Hammerfast (or, for that matter, Vor Rukoth or Gloomwrought - softcover and boxed set) were never meant to qualify. [But yeah, saying 'this is the third product we've done on a fantasy city in the past 18 months' doesn't really have that sales oomph.]
What's so hilarious is that that response already highlighed that a tacit restriction to "in the current (4E) line up of D&D products" was in place all along. If so, why not own up to that? Their behaviour just makes no sense.
WotC is just out luck with this book, it seems. Earlier today it was anncouned that the big Neverwinter MMO - the one which was supposed to come out at around the same time as their Neverwinter campaign book - got shelved to 2012 because it was not up to par. So the book lost one of its major rationale - cross pollination with the MMO crowd via synchronised releases.
Came across a review of this new 4E Neverwinter Campaign Setting book.
http://www.rpgmusings.com/2011/08/review-neverwinter-campaign-setting/
In particular, it mentions something which seems to be rather irksome to me on a first read.
QuoteDire Corbies are talked about very briefly, given one monster statblock, and then the reader is very bluntly told that to learn more they have to read a DDI article about them. Although the monsters listed for faction encounters came from a huge variety of sources and the book on the whole points DMs to different books to get stat blocks for NPCs and monsters, the dire corbies section felt extremely heavy-handed in the way it felt like a product placement. I would have rather not had the book bring them up at all than promote the DDI article in such an obnoxious way.
If this wasn't Forgotten Realms, something done this obnoxiously as a cross promotion with DDI, would have turned me off immediately from ever buying this particular book.
:banghead:
Nevertheless, I still want to look through this book before dismissing it completely. But so far it's looking less and less attractive to me.
This sort of thing reminds me of what's been done to some university textbooks in recent times.
Basically in some textbooks' recent editions, they removed all kinds of stuff from the print edition, and put it up online instead (some for pay, some for free). In some sense, the older editions of these textbooks from a decade ago (and earlier) may very well be more "complete" than the newer "crippled" editions.
It feels like one is being ripped off by deliberate omissions, in an underhanded manner by the publisher. (Though one may feel differently, if this was a first edition of a new textbook, where there's no previous editions and history).
Quote from: ggroy;474295This sort of thing reminds me of what's been done to some university textbooks in recent times.
Basically in some textbooks' recent editions, they removed all kinds of stuff from the print edition, and put it up online instead (some for pay, some for free). In some sense, the older editions of these textbooks from a decade ago (and earlier) may very well be more "complete" than the newer "crippled" editions.
It feels like one is being ripped off by deliberate omissions, in an underhanded manner by the publisher. (Though one may feel differently, if this was a first edition of a new textbook, where there's no previous editions and history).
The above textbook shennanigans are currently the bane of my existance; fucking textbook publishing jackholes...
Quote from: ggroy;474292Came across a review of this new 4E Neverwinter Campaign Setting book.
http://www.rpgmusings.com/2011/08/review-neverwinter-campaign-setting/
In particular, it mentions something which seems to be rather irksome to me on a first read.
If this wasn't Forgotten Realms, something done this obnoxiously as a cross promotion with DDI, would have turned me off immediately from ever buying this particular book.
Nevertheless, I still want to look through this book before dismissing it completely. But so far it's looking less and less attractive to me.
Thanks for the crippleware Wizards *shakes head*
Quote from: Planet Algol;474325The above textbook shennanigans are currently the bane of my existance; fucking textbook publishing jackholes...
Same here, but earlier this past decade. :banghead:
Quote from: Planet Algol;474327Thanks for the crippleware Wizards *shakes head*
It's not really like that. There are 5 types of dire corbies in the DDI article, but 4 of them are 17th level or higher. The Neverwinter Campaign Setting is explicitly heroic tier. The one dire corby that fits the tier is the one included in the book.
ggroy, S'mon made a similar point (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/310019-so-how-do-i-start-neverwinter-campaign.html) about the book over at Enworld recently:
QuoteMy copy of the Neverwinter Campaign Guide arrived on Tuesday, and I've been looking over it the past 2 days. It seems to be about half players'-side stuff, it has a lot of hooks, it has various NPC faction leaders detailed. It has what looks to be very sketchy area description stuff. It's nicely atmospheric. What it does not seem to have is any sort of "You start here" introduction...
I'm currently running an FRCG Loudwater campaign, the reason it is going well is that it gave me a clear intro point with the Loudwater stuff beginning with Raid on Loudwater, a linear intro scenario, two more single-encounter adventures (great idea, worked brilliant in play), and ideas for further adventures. A kind of V shaped approach, starting narrow and detailed, then getting vaguer as it opens out, inspiring me to start sandboxing. Personally I think this is an excellent design paradigm, certainly for my play style.
But I'm not seeing anything like this in Neverwinter. It doesn't even seem to have the sort of sample encounters that appear in eg the Underdark book. Without a starting point, I feel lost. Are there any adventures in eg Dungeon I could use? I could particularly do with stuff for ca mid-Heroic* play, but I guess low-Heroic can be powered up.
*I like the Heroic tier, but I think the designers of Neverwinter may have gone overboard in powering down everything a bit too much. Making the chief NPCs, the movers and shakers, ca 6th-7th level and not even Elite... would it have hurt to make them 10th level Elites? As written the stat blocks don't seem to fit the fluff text.
I gotta say though, WotC has put out two Monster Vaults which (like Neverwinter) focus mostly on heroic tier critters- so that a shortage of heroic tier stat blocks in the Neverwinter book is probably a plus.
Hoho, the Dire Corbies really got a promotion in 4E!
Quote from: Windjammer;474357ggroy, S'mon made a similar point (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/310019-so-how-do-i-start-neverwinter-campaign.html) about the book over at Enworld recently:
Hmmm .....
From the sounds of it, this book is becoming less and less appealing to me. Without seeing it for myself, it's sounding more and more like a "Volo's Guide to Neverwinter" type book with some token crunch added in?
Another review (http://daegames.blogspot.com/2011/08/neverwinter-campaign-setting-review.html), this time with pics. Behold the return of the Mary Sue's. ;)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i2BsZwV5Ou0/TjtS8lWFtnI/AAAAAAAAA-Y/7QPyv5OjeqA/s1600/Untitled-3.jpg)
To aid those whose eyesight is fading.... "Drizzt is a noble [bla bla]. He gets best along with adventures of demonstrable bravery and honor. He gladly spars with the player characters and might teach them a trick or two." I can see some hot man on drow wrestling at this point. And, if you prove your merit, you unlock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZYnBxdThvU) the "Drizzt's kick". Marmell & co. at their finest.
Hmm ....
Guess they wouldn't kill off Drizzt. He must still be a big seller for FR novels.
Thanks for the eyesight fader's summary; I turned the screen up to 200% just to read it anyway.
Definitely not regretting going back to AD&D....
Quote from: Windjammer;474523"Drizzt is a noble [bla bla]. He gets best along with adventures of demonstrable bravery and honor. He gladly spars with the player characters and might teach them a trick or two." I can see some hot man on drow wrestling at this point. And, if you prove your merit, you unlock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZYnBxdThvU) the "Drizzt's kick". Marmell & co. at their finest.
Jesus H. Christ what a steaming pile of shit.
Quote from: Doom;474526Thanks for the eyesight fader's summary; I turned the screen up to 200% just to read it anyway.
That excerpt is not exactly an encouraging read.
So far this year, I've had very little to no enthusiasm for any of the 4E books released. The yet to be released 4E titles for the rest of this year and early next year, don't look particularly appealing either.
The cash I originally had budgeted for buying new D&D books this year, I ended up spending it all on the dvd sets of all 9 seasons of X-Files. (Found all nine dvd sets in the bargain bin recently). Didn't see any point in waiting anymore, for more crappy 4E splatbooks to hit the market.
If we're lucky cartographer Mike Schley uploads his maps for the book on Cartographer's Guild like he did before (http://www.cartographersguild.com/feature/SarifalMap.jpg). Having seen these maps in a Youtube review of the book, I got to admit they look fabulous. The book comes with a double sided poster map, one showing Neverwinter, the other Evernight (whatever that is).
Quote from: Windjammer;474543If we're lucky cartographer Mike Schley uploads his maps for the book on Cartographer's Guild like he did before (http://www.cartographersguild.com/feature/SarifalMap.jpg). Having seen these maps in a Youtube review of the book, I got to admit they look fabulous. The book comes with a double sided poster map, one showing Neverwinter, the other Evernight (whatever that is).
That would be cool if he does.
If the rest of the book is awful, I don't see any point in spending $25-$30 just for a cool map.
"Evernight" sounds like it could be Neverwinter's "evil twin" city in the Shadowfell.
Quote from: Windjammer;474543If we're lucky cartographer Mike Schley uploads his maps for the book on Cartographer's Guild like he did before (http://www.cartographersguild.com/feature/SarifalMap.jpg). Having seen these maps in a Youtube review of the book, I got to admit they look fabulous.
The poster map looks nice, but it's disappointing to me because it has no labels (locations, street names, etc.)
So there's no way to match a description in the book with it's location on the poster map. You have to use the small version of the map that's in the book, which does have labels.
Quote from: Windjammer;474523Another review (http://daegames.blogspot.com/2011/08/neverwinter-campaign-setting-review.html), this time with pics. Behold the return of the Mary Sue's. ;)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i2BsZwV5Ou0/TjtS8lWFtnI/AAAAAAAAA-Y/7QPyv5OjeqA/s1600/Untitled-3.jpg)
To aid those whose eyesight is fading.... "Drizzt is a noble [bla bla]. He gets best along with adventures of demonstrable bravery and honor. He gladly spars with the player characters and might teach them a trick or two." I can see some hot man on drow wrestling at this point. And, if you prove your merit, you unlock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZYnBxdThvU) the "Drizzt's kick". Marmell & co. at their finest.
Awesome! Can I "unlock" Elminster's Suplex as well?
Volo's Spinning Piledriver?
Wulfgar's People's Elbow?
"Drizzt will happily spar with the characters, and they can totally get free panther rides. He also buys everyone ice cream, and will teach them how to backflip. Afterwards, he throws a bitchin' party, and invites them to appear in some rockin' fanfic with him".
Seriously, it shows all the depth and skill of writing a Goofus n' Gallant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlights_for_Children#Goofus_.26_Gallant) cartoon:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uTi2rqkunWw/Tk6MuE9rFQI/AAAAAAAABb8/hv1LMPZ8i-M/s512/jarlaxledrizzt.JPG)
Just wonderful; now D&D players can feel entitled to unlock achievements by hanging out with their favorite characters from D&D fiction. What a delightful development.
By itself, it's not a horrible idea. I actually like (and have used) the concept of letting characters gain unique powers/spells/equipment from taking a pilgrimage to some famous temple, learning from a legendary teacher, gazing too deep into the abyss, or what have you. It is a great way to motivate players and make them feel cool because it is special and rare and it is theirs alone, and By God They Have Earned It. It has also been around since Runequest, and possibly even Empire of the Petal Throne, mainly for spells and spell-like abilities, but if a system has feats, prestige classes or 4e-like powers, well, they are fair game too.
The problem is not the raw idea, it is that it is tied to a distasteful part of the already disagreeable Forgotten Realms canon, and presented in an extra-cheesy style.
Or I may be missing something deeper.
Quote from: Melan;474694By itself, it's not a horrible idea. I actually like (and have used) the concept of letting characters gain unique powers/spells/equipment from taking a pilgrimage to some famous temple, learning from a legendary teacher, gazing too deep into the abyss, or what have you. It is a great way to motivate players and make them feel cool because it is special and rare and it is theirs alone, and By God They Have Earned It. It has also been around since Runequest, and possibly even Empire of the Petal Throne, mainly for spells and spell-like abilities, but if a system has feats, prestige classes or 4e-like powers, well, they are fair game too.
The problem is not the raw idea, it is that it is tied to a distasteful part of the already disagreeable Forgotten Realms canon, and presented in an extra-cheesy style.
Or I may be missing something deeper.
nah, i think you're spot-on with that. poor choice of terms, IMO--"unlock" is just too videogamey. perhaps simply "can learn" or something else would be much better.
Well, love FR or hate it, Drizz't (sp)? is at least a recognizable part of FR.
I can see why the 'special move unlock' thing is hateable though: its a peculiar marriage of plot and mechanics that leads the game to dubious places.
Min/maxers out there are already probably already lining up for quests to find Driz'zt and replotting out feat chains to exploit synergy between Driz'zts Kick and the 'I Crush Your Face' feat, or alternatively have consigned it to the bin as less good that the 'Greater Stunlock XV' power.
If it is more powerful that usual powers, as an 'uncommon' power, it may count as marketing the book through power creep, though that's nothing new. And I imagine that to keep game balance they would probably use the retraining rules, so that after you learn Driz'zts kick you forget something else :)
QuoteI'm currently running an FRCG Loudwater campaign, the reason it is going well is that it gave me a clear intro point with the Loudwater stuff beginning with Raid on Loudwater, a linear intro scenario, two more single-encounter adventures (great idea, worked brilliant in play), and ideas for further adventures.
Raid on Loudwater has the stopping power of a 120mm M1A2's round fired at point-blank. I have this clear recollection of me, vacationing in Washington D.C., enjoying the summer with a just bought copy of the FR 4E. I was physically stunned by the landscapes of stupidity opened by that (so called) adventure. It took the collapse of Lehman Brothers a few weeks later to beat that, and only barely.
There is a detailed analysis elsewhere (http://nitessine.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/a-rant-and-a-review-forgotten-realms-campaign-guide/), but basically the approach is that the players are morons who eat anything. Not the characters, but
the actual players! - which, in all fairness, is the correct approach if you want to introduce people to 4E.
Quote from: beeber;474697nah, i think you're spot-on with that. poor choice of terms, IMO--"unlock" is just too videogamey. perhaps simply "can learn" or something else would be much better.
To be fair, "unlock" isn't a term
the book uses, it's the one
I used to describe the vibe it gave off at this point to me.
Zach's "letting the kids ride the panther" and Melan's "if the PCs have earned it" nail it though. Unlocking achievements is a really good mechanism, it should be propagated more widely. But when so propagated, it should be executed in style and wit. (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/12/exploration.html) ;)
Quote from: Windjammer;474743To be fair, "unlock" isn't a term the book uses, it's the one I used to describe the vibe it gave off at this point to me.
ah, thanks for the clarification :)
Hmm... Interesting: Gallant does seem to be a socialist (http://www.parisianevents.com/parisianparty/wp-content/images/goofusandgallant.png) and against foreign intervention (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tiKMzRK3Oao/TMhCwfU_U2I/AAAAAAAAABc/QERXJk2DXXg/s1600/goofus.jpg)... I guess that Western fundamentalist values changed a lot in the last 70 years :p
Quote from: Reckall;474746Hmm... Interesting: Gallant does seem to be a socialist (http://www.parisianevents.com/parisianparty/wp-content/images/goofusandgallant.png) and against foreign intervention (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tiKMzRK3Oao/TMhCwfU_U2I/AAAAAAAAABc/QERXJk2DXXg/s1600/goofus.jpg)... I guess that Western fundamentalist values changed a lot in the last 70 years :p
There is a significant departure from the basic moral values we teach our children in the US, and those espoused by the general political ideal of adults. Indeed, I have seen this disconnect used at times to dismiss such basic values as childish.
Wonder what they will have in store for players who want to hang around Elminster (or his remains). :rolleyes:
"Ride the panther" becomes "ride the beard". Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. :hatsoff:
Quote from: Windjammer;474743Zach's "letting the kids ride the panther" and Melan's "if the PCs have earned it" nail it though. Unlocking achievements is a really good mechanism, it should be propagated more widely. But when so propagated, it should be executed in style and wit. (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/12/exploration.html) ;)
I think that's more to the point. It isn't a horrible idea in and of itself; after all, few people would argue that characters should be able to gain new skills or abilities after investing the proper time with a master. It's just poor writing and cheesy presentation.
It also still gives that vibe that I really dislike in the Realms; NPCs A, B, and C are uniformly awesome and important, and if your character is very, very lucky, they might deign to notice them for a few minutes.
Hang on. I thought that the whole idea of 4eRealms was to stop PCs from being overshadowed by NPCs?
Quote from: Koltar;473262Did they forget about Waterdeep?
I was going to suggest the
City-State of the Invincible Overlord (Judges Guild, 1976) but yours is actually funnier since it's a TSR/WotC product! :)
There have been so many fucking city-books, and so many published by TSR, or even WoTC, that its not even funny. This is the sort of stupid-ass shit someone desperately needs to be fired for.
RPGPundit
I can't believe they wrote a press release for their own book and somehow managed not to address the history of roleplaying. Don't they know what press releases are for?
It's funny, when I first read the release, I just assumed there was some technicality I missed...but still no decent explanation after this much time. Dang, it's like they animated Lorraine Williams to do their staffing and editing.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475135I can't believe they wrote a press release for their own book and somehow managed not to address the history of roleplaying. Don't they know what press releases are for?
I wondered where you were. ;)
Quote from: One Horse Town;475146I wondered where you were. ;)
Seanchai's gone, some 4venger had to come in and make a pathetically bad-faith comment about WotC ignorance of their own products and/or outright deception being completely understandable. We needed a gaping ahole the size of AM though to actually try and turn the tables around on the people laughing at the sheer stupidity of the marketing statement. Thank god he came back. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;475152Seanchai's gone, some 4venger had to come in and make a pathetically bad-faith comment about WotC ignorance of their own products and/or outright deception being completely understandable. We needed a gaping ahole the size of AM though to actually try and turn the tables around on the people laughing at the sheer stupidity of the marketing statement. Thank god he came back. :D
Ah, the usual impotent outrage.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475219Ah, the usual impotent outrage.
Welcome back! You've been seriously missed. By me, at any rate.
Have you had a look at the book? Is it any good?
Quote from: Windjammer;475231Welcome back! You've been seriously missed. By me, at any rate.
Have you had a look at the book? Is it any good?
I've only paged through it really briefly at GenCon. I played in a game last night where everyone else had it, though. The things other players liked were the themes. (Which are like a generalist extension of the Dark Sun themes- these are drop in replacements of certain abilities to fit a character background).
I can't tell you much about it, other than that.
Hey, welcome back. :)
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475135I can't believe they wrote a press release for their own book and somehow managed not to address the history of roleplaying. Don't they know what press releases are for?
I call strawman on that. No one's asking them to paste an effigy of Gary on the press release header.
We're just arguing that claiming that Neverwinter is the "the first ever" RPG sourcebook about a single city is an extraordinarily misinformed statement under any circumstance, let alone in a press release from our fledgling industry's leader. It suggests that whoever wrote this is an absolute stranger or, at best, a newcomer to the hobby.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475257I've only paged through it really briefly at GenCon. I played in a game last night where everyone else had it, though. The things other players liked were the themes. (Which are like a generalist extension of the Dark Sun themes- these are drop in replacements of certain abilities to fit a character background).
Yes, we saw previews of the themes as presented for sample characters some time ago online (http://dungeonsmaster.com/2011/07/dd-game-day-gates-of-neverdeath-preview/). Compiled into a handy PDF here (http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/neverwinter-themes.pdf) (2 MB file size though), I guess these could be printed out in glorious colour and then explored in play, regardless of whether one'd want to purchase the full book.
Also, there's the preview (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20110711) of the themes at the WotC website, replete with a full sample of one such theme. I like the idea, but am unsure about the mechanical implementation. Also, seems rather geared for particular classes - not a bad idea in general, but when you factor in racial prerequisites for some of them, that's maybe a tad too specific. Finally, Dark Sun needed themes to give specific spins on familiar classes - like Defiler magic - but I'm unsure that vanilla D&D needs themes over and above Faerun specific 'backgrounds' of the mechanically 'thinner' PHB 2 variety.
Quote from: The Butcher;475264It suggests that whoever wrote this is an absolute stranger or, at best, a newcomer to the hobby.
Well, that's certainly true. It's a dumb statement and a mistake. But that's it, though. It's not the grievous insult some people are trying to make it into. It's a nothing.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475275Well, that's certainly true. It's a dumb statement and a mistake.
Hmm, that's a first...
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475275But that's it, though.
Aha, here we go...
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475275It's not the grievous insult some people are trying to make it into.
Actually the only one claiming grievous insult was you (strawman #2), everyone else was focused on how ridiculous it is for a marketing release to be so ignorant of it's own product, and how funny it that they make even more errors in qualifying, when all they had to say was, "oops".
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;475275It's a nothing.
Apparently enough to get you back here into 4venger mode. :D
Cue sarcastic and flippant dismissal from the self-admitted troll returning to defend a 4e thread.
At least you'll probably engage in constructive discussions with Windjammer about the book, too bad you can't drop the schtick while you do it.
Could we not do this shit again? Thank you.
In a way, I see this whole affair as being related to one of AM's theories, though. And I must admit, it vindicates sth.
The press release shows, that there must be someone who has no clue whatsoever about pre-Essentials 4e or D&D itself. So, in the greater scheme of things, on a scale only involving MtG and Pokemon in addition to D&D, it is possible for people to give not a fucking fuck about D&D.
Which in turn is a slap in the face to us D&D afficcionados. But really, not even MtG people give a fuck.
For those of us who are invested and give a fuck, this is giving us agita. Because it becomes clear we are indeed, not as relevant as implicitly thought. On the other hand it is a clear showing of disrespect by WotC. Careless disrespect is to be avoided, if it is so easy.
But that only reinforces that WotC doesn't give a fuck. Which is sorta sad for us, even for the Encont4rds- WotC does not even think you are relevent anymore.
So welcome AM, welcome in the land of the irrelevant about whom nobody gives a fuck anymore.
Quote from: Melan;475292Could we not do this shit again? Thank you.
What, pretend all the little troll crap AM throws into his posts here and there isn't done on purpose and is actually subtle? Sure, why not.
I, for one, don't really care about it except that it's a pretty stupid mistake when 4e itself released previous city-focused material.
And it was even dumber to take the route of "well, see, technically we're right because it's the first ever post-essentials 4e hardback book solely on a settlement specifically called a 'city'..." which is the sort of thing that is always groan-inducing, mostly because I've dealt with people like that at various jobs IRL and it's really annoying when they try to weasel-word their way out of being wrong.
We are offended, because they do not even give enough of a fuck to apologize in any coherent way. They are disrespecting us. That is why we are mad, and this is especially what AM diagnosed. He was right.
Quote from: Settembrini;475347We are offended, because they do not even give enough of a fuck to apologize in any coherent way. They are disrespecting us. That is why we are mad, and this is especially what AM diagnosed. He was right.
Sett, you don't count, you're always mad. :D
(Back on topic).
I dropped by a gaming store on my way home, and went through this book briefly.
Chapter 1 - Generic info about running a campaign in Neverwinter. Nothing too specific. (ie. Typical "intro" chapter).
Chapter 2 - New crunch, which didn't really interest me much. (ie. Bladesinger, cleric domains, etc ...). On a fast skim, the bladesinger looks sort of like a 4E Essentials-ized version of the original Heinsoo 4E "swordmage".
The Neverwinter themes look somewhat more generic than the themes in the 4E Dark Sun books.
Chapter 3 - Groups and factions. Rather generic, with some guidelines about how to build up the composition of such organizations. I've seen d20 glut era books on groups/factions which read better than this.
Chapter 4 - Generic gazetteer of Neverwinter and nearby areas. Mostly basic information. Very little crunch for the most part. (Then again, the original Pathfinder Golarion Campaign Setting book wasn't much different in spirit).
Overall, I'm definitely taking a pass on this. Not a particularly useful book, if one is not interested in playing a Bladesinger or using the other crunch (ie. cleric domains, themes, etc ...). Maybe if I ever see this book in the bargain bin for less than $10 or $15, perhaps I'll pick it up as an "impulse buy". Otherwise it's not particularly impressive to be a "must buy" for me.