TheRPGSite

Whether its Watchmen, Star Wars, comics, or D&D, you have to stop letting your Nerd-OCD make you give money to people who despise  you to ruin things you love!



[video=youtube_share;yELu2XzjckI]https://youtu.be/yELu2XzjckI[/youtube]

There seems to be a trend of new projects trying to claim a connection with classic properties even when they have nothing to do with them. With this new Watchmen it sounds like there's an obvious heavy handed culture wars agenda going on, but I've seen it without that.

Netflix recently made a miniseries of The Haunting of Hill House that turns out to have literally nothing to do with Shirley Jackson's novel or the movies based on it. They used the title and some of the character names (but not the characters themselves) and that's it. The funny thing is, taken on its own merits it's not bad. It's a serviceably creepy story about the impact of a childhood encounter with a haunted house on the characters as adults. I'm not sure why they tried to tie it in with the Jackson book. It's as though the makers lacked the confidence to believe that they could make something that people would like for its own sake.

I don't care what others think of me, and I won't let what they think of me control what I spend my money on. If people make products I get something out of, I will continue to buy it, regardless of what they think of me. My gaming is not some activist protest movement.

I've heard the same kind of talk from Herion addicts.

Quote from: Son-of-Gaia;1111784I've heard the same kind of talk from Herion addicts.

Who you hang out with is also none of my business :)

It's "The Two Dougs" dilemma from the TV Show "The Good Place". Which is a superb show by the way.  In the episode titled "The Tale of Two Dougs (Season 3, episode 11), the destinies of the two different people named Doug illustrates why fewer and fewer people are earning enough points to get into Heaven until around 500 years ago nobody could any longer get into Heaven (no matter how careful and knowledgable and isolated they were) in the setting of this show.

The first Doug, in the year 1534, picks roses and gives them to his grandmother. He earns good points towards getting into Heaven. The second Doug, in the year 2009, orders roses using his mobile phone and gives them his to his grandmother. He loses points (or gains "bad points" to get into Hell).

Why? Because now the flowers are grown thousands of miles away, using fertilizers and pesticides that harm the ecosystem, picked by workers who are underpaid, and transported using vehicles that pollute the atmosphere.

The point is it's become impossible over time to gain sufficient knowledge about the complexity of life given the interconnectedness of the world. Our actions have implications that ripple beyond everyone's ignorance threshold or ability to avoid harm. There are no longer good choices, and choices you often think are better than others may well be worse in ways you don't and perhaps can't know.

You can see one of the main characters explain it in this clip, concerning simply trying to buy a tomato. The Judge objects to his explanation saying he's just arguing life is complex, but not seen in this clip is her going to Eath, experiencing what the character is describing first hand, and realizing the system is broken. Skip to the 1:34 mark in the video below:

[video=youtube_share;R8m_5HDZF7w]https://youtu.be/R8m_5HDZF7w?t=94[/youtube]

The answer I've chosen is to do what you can in the areas you care about the most, and just accept that you cannot do it all, and would be miserable and fail if you tried. Gaming is just not an area I am going to engage in activism. I really, honestly don't care enough about the topics you guys are caring about with this issue to let it crack my top 100 list of activism I am willing to engage in.

It's laughable how nerds claim to possess a higher intelligence than normies, but can't understand voting with their dollars.

Every dollar is a vote. Spend accordingly.

It's not activism. It's basic personal economics. If you want local businesses to thrive, buy your stuff locally at those businesses. If you like a particular band and want them to make more music, buy their albums and go to their concerts.

Alternatively, if you think a company is a bunch of worthless fucknuts, don't buy their products and instead patronize their competitors who produce equally good products.

Not rocket science.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1111810It's laughable how nerds claim to possess a higher intelligence than normies, but can't understand voting with their dollars.

Every dollar is a vote. Spend accordingly.

It's not activism. It's basic personal economics. If you want local businesses to thrive, buy your stuff locally at those businesses. If you like a particular band and want them to make more music, buy their albums and go to their concerts.

Alternatively, if you think a company is a bunch of worthless fucknuts, don't buy their products and instead patronize their competitors who produce equally good products.

Not rocket science.

It's laughable how you think my expressing my opinion is some implied "higher intelligence" claim, or that I don't understand the concept.

It's not a vote. Voting with dollars is an analogy, not reality. Reality is there is no connection made by these companies between sales and the positions they take on the internet. And they're right - your protest "votes" are not registering because far too few people think like you or care about these topics like you do. You are peeing in the ocean and proclaiming everyone will drown as the seas rise.

It's activism. Of course it's activism. That's another word for "personal economics" in this context. These are not "local businesses". Hasbro does not care about your idiotic internet bitching about woke shit. You are having no meaningful impact with your "personal economic votes" with regard to shit like WOTC products.

But you think you do apparently, or don't care. If you don't care, cool, then you should understand me not caring. But if you think you're having a meaningful impact then it's not me whose intelligence you should be insulting.

People don't post more than twice in threads they don't care about.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111818Hasbro does not care about your idiotic internet bitching about woke shit. You are having no meaningful impact with your "personal economic votes" with regard to shit like WOTC products.

I'm not entirely sure of this. Hasbro as a whole doesn't care, but the tabletop RPG market is sufficiently small that grassroots movements could potentially have an impact -- thus affecting that small branch of Hasbro. Voting with one's dollars is an imperfect analogy - like any analogy - but it gets some essential truths. If enough people are displeased with Wizards of the Coast's marketing and/or products, then their business will suffer.

On the other hand, what I'm not sure is: Are there really a ton of nerds buying stuff they don't like because they don't understand how to buy things? Or is it that they just have different taste in gaming products from RPGPundit and Spinachcat?

I must be one of the few people that did not really get into Watchmen.  I mean one of them is supposed to be the smartest person on earth who comes up with a plan for world peace so ridiculous that he could not even do it with the help of his super hero friends.

But as for Nerd OCD and Star Wars in particular, the third Trilogy seems completely borked and I have no interest in finding out what happened to Mary Sue or her Emo boyfriend now that every original character has been killed off.

Quote from: EOTB;1111821People don't post more than twice in threads they don't care about.

I care about the topic. The concept of voting with your dollars when it comes to RPGs is a topic I like. I don't however care about the SJW issues in RPGs issues like many of you guys do. See the difference? Gay gnomes seems like a silly thing to sacrifice my fun over. Discussing if it's a silly thing or not seems like a fair thing to sacrifice some free time over.

Quote from: jhkim;1111823I'm not entirely sure of this. Hasbro as a whole doesn't care, but the tabletop RPG market is sufficiently small that grassroots movements could potentially have an impact -- thus affecting that small branch of Hasbro. Voting with one's dollars is an imperfect analogy - like any analogy - but it gets some essential truths. If enough people are displeased with Wizards of the Coast's marketing and/or products, then their business will suffer.

On the other hand, what I'm not sure is: Are there really a ton of nerds buying stuff they don't like because they don't understand how to buy things? Or is it that they just have different taste in gaming products from RPGPundit and Spinachcat?

It's that 99% of them are not reading about this shit at all and shrug about these issues like "What Crawford said on Twitter than one time" or "These two gnomes are gay oh nooooes!"

Seriously, we've never mattered. By "we" I mean "People who post a lot on message boards and minutia when it comes to RPGs including social issues re: RPGs." The entire classification of people who are even aware of these issues, on all sides of the topics, is so tiny as to be meaningless.

Quote from: jhkim;1111823I'm not entirely sure of this. Hasbro as a whole doesn't care, but the tabletop RPG market is sufficiently small that grassroots movements could potentially have an impact -- thus affecting that small branch of Hasbro. Voting with one's dollars is an imperfect analogy - like any analogy - but it gets some essential truths. If enough people are displeased with Wizards of the Coast's marketing and/or products, then their business will suffer.

On the other hand, what I'm not sure is: Are there really a ton of nerds buying stuff they don't like because they don't understand how to buy things? Or is it that they just have different taste in gaming products from RPGPundit and Spinachcat?

Not sure about RPGs but in comics/movies yes there are, lots and lots of people complaining that Marvel/DC this or that but keep on buying at least some of their products, thus funding the ones that nobody buys.

Take One More Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man:_One_More_Day) lots and lots of geeks/nerds complaining about it, and yet they keep buying every single Spider-Man comic.

The same goes with Star Wars and the MCU, lots of geeks/nerds went to see the Captain Wahmen/Last Jedi movie despite being sure it was going to be shit, and then went/plan to go see end game/Rise of Meh because reasons.

So there could be some number of people that buy D&D products out of loyalty to the brand, even if they don't like it. We used to call those people fans for a reason.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1111810It's laughable how nerds claim to possess a higher intelligence than normies, but can't understand voting with their dollars.

Every dollar is a vote. Spend accordingly.

Problem is when you have 'nerds' proclaiming they are proud to be cattle and gladly give a company money they know is either ripping them of, or treating its workers like dirt. They arent even cultists anymore.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111818Reality is there is no connection made by these companies between sales and the positions they take on the internet.

I'll let Blizzard know.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111818And they're right - your protest "votes" are not registering because far too few people think like you or care about these topics like you do.

So what? I've never cared if others share my opinions, my likes or my dislikes. That's not how I'm wired.

What I do care about is how I feel. And I feel great when I consciously vote with my dollars.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111818You are peeing in the ocean and proclaiming everyone will drown as the seas rise.

Somebody better warn Greta!

Quote from: Mistwell;1111818But if you think you're having a meaningful impact then it's not me whose intelligence you should be insulting.

Of course I'm having a meaningful impact! But my goal isn't a meaningful impact on WotC. My goal is a meaningful impact on small press publishers who make stuff I enjoy by supporting them financially by buying their products and evangelizing their brand by running their games in public.

It's exactly why Kickstarter backers have a meaningful impact because without them, many projects would never have seen the light of day. I've backed several projects where there were only a few hundred of us, or less, who made sure the creator had the support they needed to launch.

It's pebbles in the small pond, not pebbles in the ocean. Just like patronizing your local artisan pizza place instead of a mega-chain.

If you want to call that activism, so be it. I'm old school regarding activism. To me, activism requires a lot more than just watching where you spend your money. To me, activism requires sweat and commitment.

Voting with your dollars is just driving two blocks past Taco Bell to eat at a locally owned taco stand instead. No energy spent by any stretch, but it does require a modicum of awareness.

Quote from: jhkim;1111823On the other hand, what I'm not sure is: Are there really a ton of nerds buying stuff they don't like because they don't understand how to buy things?

Nerds are too attached to name brands like D&D, Marvel, Star Wars, etc and now that these brands have shit their pants with SJW propaganda, many of the nerds I've seen online and offline are angry, upset, but weirdly still attached to the brands like some bad marriage.

I don't get this attachment. We live in the Golden Age of Geek Stuff from comics to video games to RPGs and there is so much interesting quality content out there being created by independents and small companies. So my message is simple. If you don't like what the name brands are doing, come check out dozens of products you might like much better.

Quote from: jhkim;1111823Or is it that they just have different taste in gaming products from RPGPundit and Spinachcat?

Everyone should support what they enjoy. People who love storygames should buy more storygames so those creators can continue to not make RPGs. Gamers who love crunchy rules should buy more crunchy rules.

It's not about sharing my taste. It's about everyone supporting their preference. And if they like the bullshit WotC, Paizo, Monte Cook, etc is shoveling into the hobby, then they should buy it.

But if any gamers don't like SJW nonsense shoved into their games, or don't like companies who denigrate their customers who might have different viewpoints, then those gamers should look around at the incredibly variety of awesome games that exist beyond the "big brands" of the hobby.

Quote from: jhkim;1111823On the other hand, what I'm not sure is: Are there really a ton of nerds buying stuff they don't like because they don't understand how to buy things? Or is it that they just have different taste in gaming products from RPGPundit and Spinachcat?

All over the internet you hear countless protests from nerds about how awful the new Star Wars movies are, how awful the new Marvel comics are, how awful all the Watchmen spinoffs (in comics and TV) have been, in how awful the SJW agenda in Pathfinder and D&D are... and yet in those very complaints they make it implicitly or explicitly clear that they continue to buy the products.

It isn't even necessarily about SJW politics.  With the Star Wars and Forgotten Realm novels, as the quality of the products continued to get worse and worse, you'd see more and more nerds complaining about how awful they were. As far as I know, neither were full of leftist politics (this was long before the SJW entryism era), but the same problem happened: nerds are completists, and they're obsessives. They will keep buying absolute garbage that actually ruins the thing they loved, because it has the same name as the thing that was actually good and that they actually loved, not understanding that by lacking the slightest bit of discrimination, THEY are responsible for helping to run their favorite thing into the ground.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1111881I'll let Blizzard know.

I didn't say there is no connection in any field. I said in THIS field. In this field, if you combine all the indie RPGs together in one bucket and put that next to WOTC, you will not even notice the indie RPGs. Not so with other fields. But with this one, we have one incredibly dominant. Pathfinder 2e is the runner up, and from what I can tell it's doing well for a runner up, but pathetic relative to D&D 5e. Even PF2e isn't noticeable to WOTC in terms of sales, and it's the second biggest seller.

QuoteSo what? I've never cared if others share my opinions, my likes or my dislikes. That's not how I'm wired.

What I do care about is how I feel. And I feel great when I consciously vote with my dollars.

If a protest falls in the forest and nobody is there, does it make a sound? My premise is these protests result in some degree of sacrifice from the buyer (you seem to be ignoring that aspect of this). Because, as I said initially, if I AM GETTING SOMETHING GOOD OUT OF THE PRODUCT then I will continue to buy it. Which means you're advocating I sacrifice buying something I like, for the cause you care about. In that context, if the company you're protesting doesn't even notice the protest, it's a pretty meaningless act which costs you something to undertake.

And if it's not costing you something, then why are you complaining to me that I should behave like you, when it IS costing me something because I like these products?

QuoteOf course I'm having a meaningful impact! But my goal isn't a meaningful impact on WotC. My goal is a meaningful impact on small press publishers who make stuff I enjoy by supporting them financially by buying their products and evangelizing their brand by running their games in public.

It's exactly why Kickstarter backers have a meaningful impact because without them, many projects would never have seen the light of day. I've backed several projects where there were only a few hundred of us, or less, who made sure the creator had the support they needed to launch.

I don't buy RPG stuff just to read most of the time. And as my group will not play indie stuff, it means I cannot afford to just spend money on a bunch of indie stuff that will sit on my bookshelf.

If you're privileged such that your group will play it, or you can afford to just blow money on this stuff just to read it and hope you get something out of it, great for you. But that's me, and you advocating I should adopt your standards when we're in different places in terms of what we can spend money on seems pointless and a bit lacking in empathy.

QuoteVoting with your dollars is just driving two blocks past Taco Bell to eat at a locally owned taco stand instead. No energy spent by any stretch, but it does require a modicum of awareness.

In terms of food, I've been a vegetarian since the 80s for a variety of reasons. That is a cause which has a lot more meaning to me than "Jeremy Crawford said something political I disagree with on Twitter" and "A couple of gnomes in an adventure are gay".  But even with this thing which is much more important to me, I don't talk about it unless it comes up. Because evangelizing is annoying.

QuoteNerds are too attached to name brands like D&D, Marvel, Star Wars, etc and now that these brands have shit their pants with SJW propaganda, many of the nerds I've seen online and offline are angry, upset, but weirdly still attached to the brands like some bad marriage.

Who are you to judge what is "too" attached?  I LIKED the more recent Star Wars movies. I liked Captain Marvel. And I like D&D. If you're seeing people who are still consuming stuff they claim they don't like, might I suggest they may be virtue signalling to their perceived tribe but privately do still like these things? I can't tell you how annoying it was for me to say "I liked Indiana Jones 4" or even "I thought Twilight was fine" and to have so many of my nerd friends lose their shit over my liking those nerdy things they didn't like. The temptation to just say "Yeah those things suck! Go team!" was strong just to get them off my back and not have to deal with the argument. I didn't, but I pay a cost still for saying both of those things and I can see if some others just don't want to pay the cost of saying "I liked Captain Marvel" just to hear a bunch of peers bash it and them by association.

QuoteI don't get this attachment. We live in the Golden Age of Geek Stuff from comics to video games to RPGs and there is so much interesting quality content out there being created by independents and small companies. So my message is simple. If you don't like what the name brands are doing, come check out dozens of products you might like much better.

A lot of stuff is popular because people like it.

Controversy sells. Always has. Always will.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111818It's laughable how you think my expressing my opinion is some implied "higher intelligence" claim, or that I don't understand the concept.

It's not a vote. Voting with dollars is an analogy, not reality. Reality is there is no connection made by these companies between sales and the positions they take on the internet. And they're right - your protest "votes" are not registering because far too few people think like you or care about these topics like you do. You are peeing in the ocean and proclaiming everyone will drown as the seas rise.

It's activism. Of course it's activism. That's another word for "personal economics" in this context. These are not "local businesses". Hasbro does not care about your idiotic internet bitching about woke shit. You are having no meaningful impact with your "personal economic votes" with regard to shit like WOTC products.

But you think you do apparently, or don't care. If you don't care, cool, then you should understand me not caring. But if you think you're having a meaningful impact then it's not me whose intelligence you should be insulting.

Riiiiigggghhhhhtttt.... and that's why we are running hard with Fourth Edition D&D, instead of having a 5th Edition of D&D that looks so much more like 3e than 4e?

Or why Gillette posted a five BILLION dollar loss this last year.  Or why Solo, by all accounts a perfectly serviceable movie in the Star Wars universe, took a bath at the box office, and Rian Johnson is being tapped to make all the Star Wars movies forever.

Because people voting with their dollars amounts to a big wet fart, and OCD Nerds are just keeping everything running smoothly for all these woke-ass products that insult them constantly.



I'm with Spinachcat, here. I won't buy Essentials (I probably wouldn't have anyway, but now its garaunteed), but honestly I don't care if you do.

I'm also with Spinachcat. I don't care if we disagree. Also, if you focus on your product and don't shit on your customers, we're good, even if we have no beliefs in common. And everyone should buy stuff they want to buy because they like it. Go forth and be happy.

I stopped spending any money on WotC products ~1.5 years ago.

After TLJ, I skipped Solo and won't be seeing Rise of Skywalker.

Those were both hard to do. But, it's not only voting with my dollars. It's not paying companies money to (at best) insult me, and for an inferior product at that. Why spend my leisure/entertainment budget on things that make me unhappy?

I agree with both RPGPundit and Spinachcat.  Why spend money on people that hate you and want to see you die?

Quote from: Dimitrios;1111724It's as though the makers lacked the confidence to believe that they could make something that people would like for its own sake.

A big problem with the current markets is that original works typically don't do well enough to justify making them. For every breakout success there are hundreds of failures that languish in obscurity. That is why sequels/remakes/reboots have been big business for the last decade. That is why creators have to hijack existing brand names.

No matter how many times you cry "make new X" in market Y, any attempts to do just that will not sell. Only by piggybacking off the popularity of existing brands are new what-have-you able to succeed.

Ironically, a lot of the current original works that languish in obscurity will probably develop cult followings down the line and receive massively successful sequels/remakes/reboots in twenty to forty years from now.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1111881Nerds are too attached to name brands like D&D, Marvel, Star Wars, etc and now that these brands have shit their pants with SJW propaganda, many of the nerds I've seen online and offline are angry, upset, but weirdly still attached to the brands like some bad marriage.

I don't get this attachment. We live in the Golden Age of Geek Stuff from comics to video games to RPGs and there is so much interesting quality content out there being created by independents and small companies. So my message is simple. If you don't like what the name brands are doing, come check out dozens of products you might like much better.

Fair enough. If there's anyone here who feels they're going through this behavior -- I agree. There are tons of great indie RPGs.

I'd be curious if anyone who feels like this is directed at them could speak up about their experience. I wonder what that "bad marriage" experience is like.

On the tangent of in-name-only sequels,

Quote from: Dimitrios;1111724Netflix recently made a miniseries of The Haunting of Hill House that turns out to have literally nothing to do with Shirley Jackson's novel or the movies based on it. They used the title and some of the character names (but not the characters themselves) and that's it. The funny thing is, taken on its own merits it's not bad. It's a serviceably creepy story about the impact of a childhood encounter with a haunted house on the characters as adults. I'm not sure why they tried to tie it in with the Jackson book. It's as though the makers lacked the confidence to believe that they could make something that people would like for its own sake.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1111931A big problem with the current markets is that original works typically don't do well enough to justify making them. For every breakout success there are hundreds of failures that languish in obscurity. That is why sequels/remakes/reboots have been big business for the last decade. That is why creators have to hijack existing brand names.

There are regular binges of sequels/remakes/reboots in the history of television and film. Specifically in-name-only sequels/adaptations are often the result of financiers rather than creative leads. How to market and sell a work (including the title) is often quite different from how well a work does on its own terms. I blame audiences more than creators in this regard. If audiences weren't so attached to brand loyalty, and were willing to try new works, then we'd see more stand-alone releases.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897In this field, if you combine all the indie RPGs together in one bucket and put that next to WOTC, you will not even notice the indie RPGs.

The indie RPG bucket would be massively larger in terms of choice and variety. AKA, the parameters that matter to me.

As for relative financial profits, unless I am a shareholder, why should I give a damn? All that matters is my experience with the company and it's product, not it's profit margin.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897If a protest falls in the forest and nobody is there, does it make a sound?

That Grizzly Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UMWndnqyFE) dude was probably screaming when the bears ate him.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897My premise is these protests result in some degree of sacrifice from the buyer (you seem to be ignoring that aspect of this).

Like "activism", I consider "protest" to be something far more engaged and committed than simply voting with dollars.

Is skipping the McRib and eating real BBQ really a sacrifice? Or in vegan terms, do you really sacrifice anything when you buy organic fresh vegetables from your local farmer's market versus buying some old greens in a plastic bag from a mega-chain?

I can't imagine what I'm sacrificing by not buying WotC products. The camaraderie of fellow 5e players? Playing auto-win railroad modules with Adventure's League? I can't sacrifice something that means less than nothing to me. Sacrifice means I was giving up something that mattered to me. I was raised Roman Catholic and us kids were told to give up something for Lent, but we weren't allowed to give up brussel sprouts, chores or homework. Sacrifice has to be the loss of something you value.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897Because, as I said initially, if I AM GETTING SOMETHING GOOD OUT OF THE PRODUCT then I will continue to buy it.

It's your dollars! Vote for whatever YOU want! Do as thou whilst, but do so consciously and honestly.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897Which means you're advocating I sacrifice buying something I like, for the cause you care about.

Nope. I'm not advocating YOU sacrifice anything. I don't care whatsoever if we share the same causes or not.

I'm advocating that everyone be conscious regarding their purchases. Choices do matter, even if they only matter in the very small pond called your life.

If someone is devoted to wokeness, they should buy woke products and support woke creators so they can help spread wokeness. But if you aren't devoted to promoting wokeness, then perhaps you should consider other options in the VAST marketplace of nerd entertainment available to us.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897And as my group will not play indie stuff, it means I cannot afford to just spend money on a bunch of indie stuff that will sit on my bookshelf.

Why won't your group play indie stuff?

If you don't have the time to have two groups so you can branch out and explore other RPGs you might enjoy, there's always the idea of you running "indie stuff" at conventions or game days. Do you really want to limit your hobby options because of one group?

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897Who are you to judge what is "too" attached?

God Almighty.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897I LIKED the more recent Star Wars movies. I liked Captain Marvel. And I like D&D.

Good for you! Thus it makes sense for you to support these creators with your dollars.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897I didn't, but I pay a cost still for saying both of those things and I can see if some others just don't want to pay the cost of saying "I liked Captain Marvel" just to hear a bunch of peers bash it and them by association.

What cost?

My friends and I have lots of different likes and dislikes. We're really good at telling each other to choke on a bag of dicks long before any of us feels bad for liking or disliking what we want.

Next time you meet someone who knows what a good movie is, don't take their shit! :)

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897A lot of stuff is popular because people like it.

Very true, but why I should I give a shit? A mass of people liking something means nothing to me. Popularity is no barometer to whether I will like something or not.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897SNIP
A lot of stuff is popular because people like it.

Welcome to tautology 101 : If it's popular, by definition people like it, and if enough people like it it's popular. Of course there's popularity among group X, like geek/nerd hobbies used to be : Popular among geeks/nerds.

But, here's the rub, that something is popular isn't a reason to get behind it, believe it, etc. That's called ad popolum fallacy.

Quote from: Spike;1111912Riiiiigggghhhhhtttt.... and that's why we are running hard with Fourth Edition D&D, instead of having a 5th Edition of D&D that looks so much more like 3e than 4e?

LOL that had nothing to do with woke bitching on the Internet or ANY bitching on the Internet. I am not saying sales don't matter - of course they do. We're talking about a context where sales for 5e are astronomically high. A handful of guys complaining on message boards isn't touching that. OBVIOUSLY.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111986Welcome to tautology 101 : If it's popular, by definition people like it

The quote is right there for you to see, and yet you strawmanned me anyway. I didn't say all things popular are therefore liked. I said A LOT OF STUFF is popular because people like it. Not a tautology. Highly relevant for the topic of 5e D&D - people genuinely like it. That's why it's popular.

QuoteBut, here's the rub, that something is popular isn't a reason to get behind it, believe it, etc. That's called ad popolum fallacy.

Nobody for a moment has said you should like it or get behind it because it's popular. But, thanks for that second strawman. If only you were arguing with someone who said the things you wished they said?

What started this part of the thread is people saying I should not buy things I like because of the woke messages associated with some creators behind it, or minor woke messages in some of the material. And me saying fuck that, I will buy it if I like it and ignore the woke crap, which appears to be what's happening in the marketplace because it's so well liked and popular. In no world is it rational for you to retort that I am saying YOU should like it because it's popular.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111992The quote is right there for you to see, and yet you strawmanned me anyway. I didn't say all things popular are therefore liked. I said A LOT OF STUFF is popular because people like it. Not a tautology. Highly relevant for the topic of 5e D&D - people genuinely like it. That's why it's popular.



Nobody for a moment has said you should like it or get behind it because it's popular. But, thanks for that second strawman. If only you were arguing with someone who said the things you wished they said?

What started this part of the thread is people saying I should not buy things I like because of the woke messages associated with some creators behind it, or minor woke messages in some of the material. And me saying fuck that, I will buy it if I like it and ignore the woke crap, which appears to be what's happening in the marketplace because it's so well liked and popular. In no world is it rational for you to retort that I am saying YOU should like it because it's popular.

You need to grab a dictionary and look up the word popular (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/popular)

You said this

Quote from: Mistwell;1111897SNIP
A lot of stuff is popular because people like it.

Which is the exact definition of the word popular, hence a tautology.

And you said it in response to this

QuoteI don't get this attachment. We live in the Golden Age of Geek Stuff from comics to video games to RPGs and there is so much interesting quality content out there being created by independents and small companies. So my message is simple. If you don't like what the name brands are doing, come check out dozens of products you might like much better.

So Maybe you can understand why some might think you're saying if it's popular you should like it, but if that wasn't your intention fine, my bad.

Really? Who and where exactly anybody told YOU not to buy things you like for whatever reason? What I'm saying is: Citation needed.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1111886All over the internet you hear countless protests from nerds about how awful the new Star Wars movies are, how awful the new Marvel comics are, how awful all the Watchmen spinoffs (in comics and TV) have been, in how awful the SJW agenda in Pathfinder and D&D are... and yet in those very complaints they make it implicitly or explicitly clear that they continue to buy the products.

It isn't even necessarily about SJW politics.  With the Star Wars and Forgotten Realm novels, as the quality of the products continued to get worse and worse, you'd see more and more nerds complaining about how awful they were. As far as I know, neither were full of leftist politics (this was long before the SJW entryism era), but the same problem happened: nerds are completists, and they're obsessives. They will keep buying absolute garbage that actually ruins the thing they loved, because it has the same name as the thing that was actually good and that they actually loved, not understanding that by lacking the slightest bit of discrimination, THEY are responsible for helping to run their favorite thing into the ground.

It isn't nerds in particular, it's just normal human behavior. It's called normalcy bias (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOtC2eWHPao). People try to maintain their normal behavior even in the face of a mounting disaster.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111994So Maybe you can understand why some might think you're saying if it's popular you should like it, but if that wasn't your intention fine, my bad.

It's OK, he got confused over my use of the word "majority" too, but he is a Corporate Attorney so I guess that goes along with the job description......

Quote from: jeff37923;1112003It's OK, he got confused over my use of the word "majority" too, but he is a Corporate Attorney so I guess that goes along with the job description......

To be fair, only a majority of people did not understand you.  The other 66% knew exactly what you ment by majority.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111994You need to grab a dictionary and look up the word popular (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/popular)

You said this


Which is the exact definition of the word popular, hence a tautology.

Ah, I understand your mistake now. Things can be popular but not well liked. Popular meaning high sales. Based on marketing, quite a number of things hit the level of popularity but were not well liked. The Transformers movies. The Star Wars prequels. It's why I said some things are popular because they are liked, but the corollary is that some other things are popular despite not many people liking them. Popular, in economic terms, is sales.

5e is popular (sold a lot) because people like it. The Michael Bay movie Pearl Harbor was popular (sold a lot) but not because people liked it. Not a tautology. Things can be both popular but not well liked. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Quote from: jeff37923;1112003It's OK, he got confused over my use of the word "majority" too, but he is a Corporate Attorney so I guess that goes along with the job description......

Literally nobody here agreed that your definition of majority meant minority. Not one person agreed with you regardless of their background. You were confusing the concept of plurality and majority, many people pointed it out to you, you said maybe but everyone knew what you meant and that somehow meant you were correct instead of them interpreting your babble.

''Quote Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales
Ironically, a lot of the current original works that languish in obscurity will probably develop cult followings down the line and receive massively successful sequels/remakes/reboots in twenty to forty years from now.''

I forsee this happening to the movie John Carter, reallly liked it and it bombed. Go figure.

As for rpgs reboots and new renditions do happen and its debatable if they bring anything new to the table(your mileage may vary). Its always good to have new reinterpretations of existing ideas but sequelitis can sour even the best nostalgia feel.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1111724There seems to be a trend of new projects trying to claim a connection with classic properties even when they have nothing to do with them. With this new Watchmen it sounds like there's an obvious heavy handed culture wars agenda going on, but I've seen it without that.

Arguably the most unapologetic version of this I've seen was the Master Of Orion III PC game where the devs slammed MOO2 hard. Fans got into an uproar and the MOO3 devs just doubled down. It got so bad the MOO2 devs just began asking "Why did you agree to work on this property if you hated it so much?"

Metacritic Scores:

MOO2 (User Score 9.0, Universal acclaim)
MOO3 (User Score 4.2, Generally unfavorable reviews)

Quote from: jeff37923;1112003It's OK, he got confused over my use of the word "majority" too, but he is a Corporate Attorney so I guess that goes along with the job description......

A corporate attorney...that explains a lot.

Quote from: Brad;1112058A corporate attorney...that explains a lot.

I run a graduation cap and gown manufacturing company but Jeff would like you to focus on the fact I am also an attorney who handles a few cases a year these days.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1111931A big problem with the current markets is that original works typically don't do well enough to justify making them. For every breakout success there are hundreds of failures that languish in obscurity. That is why sequels/remakes/reboots have been big business for the last decade. That is why creators have to hijack existing brand names.
.

And also because as the industry becomes more converged; the "creators" (all SJW's to some degree) just do not know how to create original stories with characters that normal people would actually like.

If you believe that half the countries voters are racist bigots for voting for Trump, and you feel that you have to push that agenda in everything that you do, how could you possibly write an original story that wouldn't alienate half of your potential audience?

So, they go with what has worked in the past... (and even then they can still fuck it up.)

There is also the larger issue that many SJW's have no cultural references pre-harry potter, they do not have an adequate grasp of historical myth, heroic archetypes, and human morality to create an interesting original story anyway.

Quote from: Mistwell;1111991LOL that had nothing to do with woke bitching on the Internet or ANY bitching on the Internet. I am not saying sales don't matter - of course they do. We're talking about a context where sales for 5e are astronomically high. A handful of guys complaining on message boards isn't touching that. OBVIOUSLY.

If the argument is, as you suggest, Voting with your money is irrelevant, pointless, valueless, accomplishing nothing or however you chose to phrase it, a counter example where voting with money actually works is relevant. WHY people voted with money is a side show.  You're trying to make a semantics argument that has nothing to do with anything.

Regarding the gangbusters sales of 5e, and a 'handful of guys complaining on message boards', again I'll refer to, as I already brought up, Star Wars, which I think I can safely assume is bigger than any single edition of D&D, or even all editions of D&D put together.

And Star Wars is fucking DYING. Becuase a handful of guys bitching on the internet are tired of Woke Shenannigans and, lo and behold... voted with their dollars.


Since you seem to be a bit slow on this topic... If a whole bunch of people don't buy the essentials kit, and it sells worse than the more non-woke products, then in all probability Hasbro will clamp down on the wokeness (contrast to Disney...), which would make voting with money effective. If not, the Spinachcats and Spikes of hte world haven't really lost anything. They (we) don't waste money on product that insults us, and that means we have money to give to products that we like.

Seriously: Do you even Real World?

Quote from: Spike;1112103Seriously: Do you even Real World?

You are asking this of a guy who by day is a mild mannered graduation cap and gown company manager, but by night he becomes Corporate Attorney and fights against the misuse of words on the mean streets of the internet!

:D :p

Quote from: Snowman0147;1111930I agree with both RPGPundit and Spinachcat.  Why spend money on people that hate you and want to see you die?

Dont you know? You have to spend money on them or they will starve and their workers will starve! You Monster!

(no. I am not joking. in an old thread on this site people were arguing exactly this. That not buying product from a crooked company or designer was bad!)

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111986Welcome to tautology 101 : If it's popular, by definition people like it, and if enough people like it it's popular. Of course there's popularity among group X, like geek/nerd hobbies used to be : Popular among geeks/nerds.

But, here's the rub, that something is popular isn't a reason to get behind it, believe it, etc. That's called ad popolum fallacy.

Actually something can end up being popular because people dont like it. If group A says its bad. Sure enough group B will latch onto it because someone doesnt like it. Or even just to piss off group A. I have never seen something like that hit big time. But theres been far too many that didnt hit the limelight but have persisted sometimes decades. And this is not necessarily a bad thing. At least initially. But from experience these things tend to snowball.

Quote from: Warder;1112049I forsee this happening to the movie John Carter, reallly liked it and it bombed. Go figure.

As for rpgs reboots and new renditions do happen and its debatable if they bring anything new to the table(your mileage may vary). Its always good to have new reinterpretations of existing ideas but sequelitis can sour even the best nostalgia feel.

1: Off topic a moment. The movie bombed because of A: really horrible marketing. and B: deviating too far from the source

2: Actually edition treadmilling does alot of damage with each iteration unless the changes are relatively small. The more that is changed the more damage is done as you lose customers and arent making back that loss fast enough that the next iteration looses you even more. This on top of fractioning your fanbase and/or turning the fanbase against you.

Quote from: Omega;1112110Dont you know? You have to spend money on them or they will starve and their workers will starve! You Monster!

(no. I am not joking. in an old thread on this site people were arguing exactly this. That not buying product from a crooked company or designer was bad!)

Yelp rather be the monster then.  No seriously it is fucking stupid.  If Onyx Path had its way we all be buying Beast and support a SUPPOSED* pedo.  I mean do you really want to support that?  I sure has the holy light of God himself don't want to support that.

*: Saying supposed because I don't have evidence to support that writer is a pedo, or isn't a pedo.  Though I will admit he didn't help himself by suddenly disappearing and everyone cut contact with him.  If he is actually innocent I would feel bad if he didn't hate me so damn much.  I know that isn't a nice thing to say, but he is a sjw that hates Trump supporters which I am one.

Quote from: Spike;1112103Since you seem to be a bit slow on this topic... If a whole bunch of people don't buy the essentials kit

WoTC-Crawford seems to keep the Virtue Signalling/Magical Realm Gnay Gnomes stuff to a level where it is annoying but generally tolerable so far (though I hear Waterdeep Dragon Heist was bad). I think Paizo's Next-Level Wokeness really is hurting PF2, though.

If someone likes the direction a property is going, by all means travel with it.  There's benefits to a big pool of people enjoying the same thing at the same time - easy to share since lots of people are on board.

But I also don't understand supporting something you wouldn't buy if it had no fans at all, just because the property went in an enjoyable direction at some point in the past.  This sort of misplaced loyalty is why corps buy up IPs in the first place and shovel out pablum they think you'll still surrender money for under its mark, while they search for some compromise increasing the number who find it palatable.   They wouldn't take the risk if they couldn't take you for granted.

Quote from: Jaeger;1112090There is also the larger issue that many SJW's have no cultural references pre-harry potter, they do not have an adequate grasp of historical myth, heroic archetypes, and human morality to create an interesting original story anyway.

Are you talking about comic books specifically? I'm going to assume you are because otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Creating a good story in general doesn't require those things specifically. It requires an understanding of things like plot structure, characterization, consistency, tone, etc. Basic Writing 101 stuff that there are millions of teaching books about.

That's why, using Netflix originals as examples, The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance is great and timeless whereas She-Ra and the Princesses of Power is bland and unmemorable.

In the former, Lisa Henson (who majored in folklore and mythology) wanted to tell a story of environmentalism on another planet. This is your typical 80s and neo-80s stuff. It makes extensive use of the serialization format to give major characters arcs. It has modern political commentary without coming across as preachy, because the world was built to support those themes.

In the latter, Noelle Stevenson (a newcomer with little experience) took amateur femslash fanfiction and sanitized it for an underage audience. Like a lot of recent Dreamworks cartoons, it has quality issues due to poor writing and a lack of any pre-planning. It is about a mutual guerrilla war fought entirely by child soldiers because the last war killed almost all able-bodied men, but never explores how this nightmare would affect the characters. It is extremely difficult to take any of the conflict seriously when most of the characters are morons who nearly kill themselves in every episode and never develop due to their experiences. It has no themes, no positive messages, no critical thought, nothing to say besides banal platitudes at best and at worst it fetishizes abusive relationships.

If you want to know what I think She-Ra should have been like, then watch Magical Girl Spec-Ops Asuka. The heroine is a former child soldier/magical girl/war veteran who is trying to resume a normal life only to find herself forced to fight again.

Quote from: Omega;11121121: Off topic a moment. The movie bombed because of A: really horrible marketing. and B: deviating too far from the source

To be entirely fair to the crew, the original stories would not work well if at all in adaptation. A Princess of Mars is less a coherent story and more a rambling travelogue. The stories as a whole are full of inconsistencies and weird tangents.

Quote from: Spike;1112103And Star Wars is fucking DYING. Becuase a handful of guys bitching on the internet are tired of Woke Shenannigans and, lo and behold... voted with their dollars.

No it isn't.  I've been to several Trunk or Treats already this past week.  If my personal experience is anything like the National Experience, licensed Star Wars costumes made somebody a lot of money.  The total amount spent on costumes is supposed to be more than $3 Billion.  I don't know what percentage of costumes are Star Wars but I bet it's more than 1%.  That's the equivalent of a very respectable movie take.

Quote from: Jaeger;1112090And also because as the industry becomes more converged; the "creators" (all SJW's to some degree) just do not know how to create original stories with characters that normal people would actually like.

If you believe that half the countries voters are racist bigots for voting for Trump, and you feel that you have to push that agenda in everything that you do, how could you possibly write an original story that wouldn't alienate half of your potential audience?

So, they go with what has worked in the past... (and even then they can still fuck it up.)

There is also the larger issue that many SJW's have no cultural references pre-harry potter, they do not have an adequate grasp of historical myth, heroic archetypes, and human morality to create an interesting original story anyway.

This.  It's even worse than you say, because becoming a SJW is something few people do by accident. Most of them are indoctrinated.  In particular, they are rabid about a dogma--without understanding that it is dogma, or even being able to parse the difference between dogma and other means of coping with ideas (e.g. premises, reason, intuition, etc.)  I'm not one of those that hates on dogma simply for being dogma.  It has a useful place in the world, because most people have areas where it is more efficient for them to trust an authoritative source.  However, it is entirely clear, and has been for centuries, that people who have faith in a dogma without knowing it is, in fact, dogma--are the last people you want guiding a creative project.  Sufficiently motivated and talented, such a person might contribute a lot, might even be the main artist, but there need to be at least one person riding herd on the thing that gets the distinction.  

By definition, a SJW thinks that whatever ideas they have about society and justice, are more important to the thing that doing a good job.  Of course they don't understand narrative.  They don't even understand people.  It's amazing that they can produce anything useful at all--which is really a testament to the adaptability of people even in the face of crippling, self-inflicted deficiencies.  If you got enough Puritans to write a sex manual, eventually a few of them might have stumbled on some good ideas too.

There is a such a thing as a minimal, lazy boycott.  That's pretty much where I am with WotC right now.  The SJW signals is just the latest reason, too.  I'd be more willing to overlook some of that if they hadn't annoyed me with some of their other decisions (only hardback adventures, dull writing, schizophrenic decision-making, etc.)

With a lazy boycott, I'm not saying I'll never buy anything they do, or quit using what I have.  5E fills a good role for me right now, not least because it is something that players in my active groups can easily acquire, understand, and enjoy.  However, after the three core books, I've not been overly impressed with anything else they've done.  I've bought 3 or 4 items.  Each one I buy radically shrinks the chances that I'll buy another.  I've dropped off of the list that gives them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not quite where SpinachCat is--yet.  It wouldn't take much to push me over the line.  I suspect there are a lot more like me in raw numbers--still not enough to cripple WotC, as our cautious buying is already incorporated into their sales.  But that's the thing about corporations that walk that line too close.  It will keep working just fine, with no indication that there is a problem, perhaps for a very long time.  Long enough that no one in charge is going to do much to fix it.  Or it could lead to a sizable drop in sales, seemingly overnight.  Marvel and Star Wars got away with stuff for awhile before it finally cascaded into hard numbers--because the hard numbers are a lagging indicator of what happens when you don't listen to your customers--your good, solid customers, not the ones that happen to be screaming the most right this moment.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112147No it isn't.  I've been to several Trunk or Treats already this past week.  If my personal experience is anything like the National Experience, licensed Star Wars costumes made somebody a lot of money.  The total amount spent on costumes is supposed to be more than $3 Billion.  I don't know what percentage of costumes are Star Wars but I bet it's more than 1%.  That's the equivalent of a very respectable movie take.

Hello, Pauline Kael. So nice of you to join us.

Some properties I've abandoned have withered and died since (Dragonlance), some have achieved new heights of popularity (D&D).  I don't really care that much one way or the other; what I care is whether a) the product is enjoyable and to a lesser extent b) the producer doesn't want me consuming it. :)

Quote from: S'mon;1112125WoTC-Crawford seems to keep the Virtue Signalling/Magical Realm Gnay Gnomes stuff to a level where it is annoying but generally tolerable so far (though I hear Waterdeep Dragon Heist was bad). I think Paizo's Next-Level Wokeness really is hurting PF2, though.

This is about where I'm at. Some virtue signalling can be ignored if the product itself is good enough. For PF2, the books I own have a few lines of rhetoric, a space for pronouns on the character sheet, and the women are covered up more. No big deal (to me). I've read here that all the Pathfinder NPCs are bisexual, but I don't see that in the books that I have. I hesitate to buy that Waterdeep book you mention and the Cthulhu Berlin book, but I do wonder if those just have a small amount of social justice politics or actually are Provincetown: The Game. The creator comments point towards the latter.

I've been reading Marvel comics since the 70's and had to abandon them after the social justice pivot a few years ago. I gave some of the books a chance, but ultimately I don't really care about the social message, I want good art and story. Some of those books went from being the best they've ever been, to absolute dogshit not worth reading for free let alone for 4$ an issue. I don't know what they were thinking.

For WATCHMEN, it is so over the top that there has to be more to it, right? After 2 episodes, you could make a drinking game out of it, it is so laughably heavy handed. HBO puts out too many good series for me to believe that. Maybe decades of utopia have changed the social dynamics such that the nun character is now the crazy Rorschach character from the original books. She seems to be being positioned for that. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit and it is just a social justice cartoon. We'll see. I'll give it a few more episodes. I have to say, I'd also choose a Grand National as my Batmobile, so it has that going for it.

Quote from: Spike;1112164Hello, Pauline Kael. So nice of you to join us.

If you want to bring film critics into it, not just marketing dollars, Star Wars the Force Awakens has a 93% meta-critic score (tied with the original Star Wars in 1977) and The Last Jedi has a 91% (better than Return of the Jedi).  

In terms of Box Office Gross, the original trilogy combined for $1.9 Billion in world-wide gross; The Force Awakens grossed more than $2 Billion by itself.  

There are a lot of lies you have to tell yourself to see Star Wars as a 'failure'.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112186If you want to bring film critics into it, not just marketing dollars, Star Wars the Force Awakens has a 93% meta-critic score (tied with the original Star Wars in 1977) and The Last Jedi has a 91% (better than Return of the Jedi).  

In terms of Box Office Gross, the original trilogy combined for $1.9 Billion in world-wide gross; The Force Awakens grossed more than $2 Billion by itself.  

There are a lot of lies you have to tell yourself to see Star Wars as a 'failure'.

Meta-critic...literally Marxist propaganda.

Michael Bay's Transformers series has made 4.8 Billion.

(https://i.imgur.com/hzQntPT.gif?noredirect)

Suck it, losers!

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112186There are a lot of lies you have to tell yourself to see Star Wars as a 'failure'.

"It's not making as much as projected and our quarterly earnings are off" says the investors call/filing, prior to the stock dip.

Corporate.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;1112201"It's not making as much as projected and our quarterly earnings are off" says the investors call/filing, prior to the stock dip.

Corporate.

Yeah...  Disney Stock $99.25 to start 2016; $130.53 today.  It is up sharply since March of this year.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112203Yeah...  Disney Stock $99.25 to start 2016; $130.53 today.  It is up sharply since March of this year.

In theaters April 26, 2019! The Avengers take a final stand against Thanos in Marvel Studios' conclusion to 22 films, 'Avengers: Endgame.'

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112186If you want to bring film critics into it, not just marketing dollars, Star Wars the Force Awakens has a 93% meta-critic score (tied with the original Star Wars in 1977) and The Last Jedi has a 91% (better than Return of the Jedi).  

In terms of Box Office Gross, the original trilogy combined for $1.9 Billion in world-wide gross; The Force Awakens grossed more than $2 Billion by itself.  

There are a lot of lies you have to tell yourself to see Star Wars as a 'failure'.

Yeah, meta-critic is sooo unbiased...

and if you're gonna quote box office gross...I would suggest using inflation adjusted figures instead of just the raw...better yet, let me know what the 'net' figures are. ;)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112186If you want to bring film critics into it, not just marketing dollars, Star Wars the Force Awakens has a 93% meta-critic score (tied with the original Star Wars in 1977) and The Last Jedi has a 91% (better than Return of the Jedi).  

In terms of Box Office Gross, the original trilogy combined for $1.9 Billion in world-wide gross; The Force Awakens grossed more than $2 Billion by itself.  

There are a lot of lies you have to tell yourself to see Star Wars as a 'failure'.

Seriously? You're bringing up critic scores in 2019 as a mark of popularity and success? In an age when any critic score above 90 all but guarantees that the movie is a pile of steaming social-justice garbage (goes up to 100% when the fan score is half that)?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1112577Seriously? You're bringing up critic scores in 2019 as a mark of popularity and success? In an age when any critic score above 90 all but guarantees that the movie is a pile of steaming social-justice garbage (goes up to 100% when the fan score is half that)?

I'm saying that Star Wars is still popular, just not the way it was with my generation.  Did you know that people who were 8 or 9 years old in 1999 enjoyed Pod Racing and Jar-Jar Binks?  Did you know that people who are 8 or 9 right now like Porgs?

When Star Wars came out in the 70s and 80s it was squarely aimed at people like me (well, by the time Jedi hit theaters, anyway) and I think it's fair to say that people like me expected the Prequels and now the Sequels to be aimed at people who have loved Star Wars their entire life.  And it wasn't.  

Star Wars continues to be wildly popular.  When I go to places with other adults I frequently see people wearing Star Wars t-shirts.  And the children LOVE Star Wars.  

I understand that people get resentful when they feel like they've been abandoned by a franchise that they have a deep attachment to, and I don't blame them for that.  But when someone tries to ignore the reality around them, of course I'm going to call them back to facts and objective measurements.  

What do you think is a good measure of popularity and success besides 'what your gut says'?

My child was 'meh' on The Force Awakens and HATED The Jast Jedi.  He was 8 & 10 when they came out.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1111918After TLJ, I skipped Solo and won't be seeing Rise of Skywalker.

Solo was actually much better than I expected. I should have saved my money on TLJ though. With Rise of Skywalker, I'll wait until some decent quality reviews weigh in before choosing whether to watch this in Theatres or not. TLJ totally ripped off my Star Wars game from 2001-2002 where I created some graphics of X-wing Fighters dogfighting TIE fighters at a Coastal installation...

(https://i.imgur.com/a0HVJhX.jpg)

Quote from: S'mon;1112602My child was 'meh' on The Force Awakens and HATED The Jast Jedi.  He was 8 & 10 when they came out.

My son got up and walked out after 2-minutes of TLJ. I had to tell my daughter to shut up, because she was laughing so hard at how stupid it was... I just sat there... and winced scene-after-scene...

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112588I'm saying that Star Wars is still popular....Star Wars continues to be wildly popular....

Good stories are well received because they communicate the truth. The original Star Wars was a classic story of good vs evil. TLJ on the other hand was strictly political propaganda, which means it is filled with half-truths and distortions of reality, which is why it gets very mixed reviews at best. Star Wars merchandise is NOT selling, and Galaxy's Edge at Disneyland is a ghost town.

The target audience, liberal extremists, don't produce very many children. They are literally killing themselves off.

Public schools in my hometown (Pasadena) are shutting down (they recently voted to close 3 elementary schools and will reconvene to shut down a number of middle and high schools in an attempt to keep from going under) because tax-payers are fleeing the state (high taxes), the diehard liberals who remain don't create very many children, and the wealthy conservatives that remain send their children to charter schools. Similarly numerous liberal colleges have shut down since 2016; Hampshire college for example has had their enrollment drop from 1200 to 600 students -- in Fall 2019 they had only 13 new students.

Unless there is a sudden change of course for Star Wars, it is doomed to total failure and will fade into obscurity, and it may already be too late since there is plenty of competition for entertainment dollars out there. You can't cut your customer base in half, especially when your preferred half is going extinct.

The only reason the Star Wars sequels will be remembered in 20 or 30 years, will be because they have Star Wars in the title. I don't expect anyone will give two shits about The Force Awakens 25th anniversary.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1112622Public schools in my hometown (Pasadena) are shutting down (they recently voted to close 3 elementary schools and will reconvene to shut down a number of middle and high schools in an attempt to keep from going under) because tax-payers are fleeing the state (high taxes), the diehard liberals who remain don't create very many children, and the wealthy conservatives that remain send their children to charter schools.

OR there's a population growth peak in 1992 you can see here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States#/media/File:U.S.BirthRate.1909.2003.png).  It's not the BABY BOOM but it has a lot of things in common.

QuoteMillennials are sometimes referred to as "echo boomers" due to a major surge in birth rates in the 1980s and 1990s, and because millennials are often the children of the baby boomers.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112635OR there's a population growth peak in 1992 you can see here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States#/media/File:U.S.BirthRate.1909.2003.png).  It's not the BABY BOOM but it has a lot of things in common.

Why are you an apologist for the biggest group of assholes on the planet?

Quote from: GameDaddy;1112604Solo was actually much better than I expected. I should have saved my money on TLJ though. With Rise of Skywalker, I'll wait until some decent quality reviews weigh in before choosing whether to watch this in Theatres or not. TLJ totally ripped off my Star Wars game from 2001-2002 where I created some graphics of X-wing Fighters dogfighting TIE fighters at a Coastal installation...

(https://i.imgur.com/a0HVJhX.jpg)

Sure, just, see thread title. Why be the customer of a company that loudly proclaims that it doesn't want me as a customer? Even if Rise of Skywalker is great, I'm not going. Though I can't imagine what anyone could do to effectively salvage the flaming dumpster full of poo that was the end of TLJ. Pretending it never happened, maybe, but Carrie Fisher is gone now.

I'll take Rogue One as an imperfect-but-lovable last Star Wars film, say check please, and spend my money and time on something else.

Not to begrudge you if you enjoy the product and want more -- go be happy. God knows life is short and hard enough as it is.

The only way to fix Star Wars now is for Disney to sell it off to people who are not political fanatics, have these people say the Disney canon is false, fire Kathleen, fire her followers, bring back the expanded universe as canon as it was, and continue on a few thousand years later in the future of Star Wars.  Given Knights of the Old Republic was four thousand years in the past it would be nice to see Star Wars four thousand years after the first trilogy.  New jedis, new siths, and new stories of good vs evil to tell to the next generation without bullshit that politics bring.  Keep it with the classical hero of the thousand faces structure, but without it being a the repeat of the first trilogy.

EDIT: Actually I am going to take that idea for my own setting and skip the Star Wars bit.

Oh my, this might be a long reply from me, as there are a bunch of things to address:

First, i have seen the highly political issue from both sides.
Sure, you may also claim that it is an entirely non-political issue, as the ones flinging shit on each other is just a bunch of baboons, claiming to be "left" or "right", when in reality they are a mix of scammers, trollers, flamers, and wannabees ...
Well, there is indeed a bunch on the left and the right as well, that has fallen for the lies, or being pushed into either camp by rabid proponents from the opposite side.

Oh, and the two parties are flinging the shit on those on the other side of the fence ... the problem is, the fence is not where they think it is.
Their own extremists has over the years moved the fence to exclude more and more people, so by now, they are just as often flinging their shit on the large middleground, and even on people that used to belong to their own group ... (extremists eat their own, and so on).

More than a year ago, i hadn't been to a cinema for years(decades?), the last i watched might have been Ang Lee's HULK....
But then, i got the opportunity to go to the cinemas with someone else ... and the first two movies i chose, was (political) statements as much as that i actually wanted to see them.
The two movies were Alita(i refuse to use the full title, as the director put it in the wrong order) and Captain Marvel.
I truly liked them both, Despite what jerks and oversensitive types had claimed about them.
Yes, both sides have jerks and oversensitive types.
Now, do not insult me by thinking i've watched the Ghostbusters  ... ugh ... "reboot".
I haven't, and i do not plan to, either.
I'm looking forward to GbIII, though. ^_^

By now, you may grasp where i stand politically.
I say i'm a leftie, but that is mainly for the ideals, as i am fully aware that reality requires different political structures for different areas and different situations.

Is there a "culture war"?
If you call monkeys flinging shit on each other, and some protecting what they think is their territories from "the other side" as "culture war" ... then yes.
If not ... then no.
I'd say no.

If you're a die-hard fan, then you might buy things even if you don't really want those things, yes.
If you are less obsessed, though, then you may be more picky.
I'm extremely picky, but it happens that i buy things to see if they is as bad as they are claimed.
(By the way, in comics, the first iteration of "Unstoppable Wasp" sucked, the first iteration of Gwenpool (not counting #0) was actually great, first iteration of the "new Champions" was decent, but not great, the second thus far seem better, first iteration of Kamala Marvel ... was good, the second thus far seem good as well .... and in the recent iteration of Captain Marvel has thus far managed to squander the use of the Nuclear Man ... which was not very good.)

Essentially, i do as i like, and occasionally i end up buying rubbish, and occasionally, something proves to be far better than i expected.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112588Did you know that people who are 8 or 9 right now like Porgs?

Porgs were the best part of TLJ! Their acting outshone the rest of the cast!

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1112588Star Wars continues to be wildly popular.  When I go to places with other adults I frequently see people wearing Star Wars t-shirts.  And the children LOVE Star Wars.

This is my experience as well.

It's also why its so important for SJWs to shitfest Star Wars. It grants them a major cultural foothold, especially upon children. SJWs only need GenX and older to STFU and be scared of getting fired for wrongthink, but their real focus is indoctrination of GenZ and "Alphas" (the little kids). Star Wars is just another SJW disease vector.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1112622Star Wars merchandise is NOT selling, and Galaxy's Edge at Disneyland is a ghost town.

Links? I've only heard that Disneyland's wait times are getting worse and they raised the ticket prices because attendance was so high.

Quote from: Catelf;1112652Is there a "culture war"?
If you call monkeys flinging shit on each other, and some protecting what they think is their territories from "the other side" as "culture war" ... then yes.
If not ... then no.
I'd say no.

The right calls it a "culture war", while its really just "cultural domination" by leftists who have been incredibly successful in destroying America's cultural and social fabric and rewriting the culture in their image through their dominion of media companies, academia and social media tech titans.

Cloyer Bulse is right. The Disney blogs are having "clap for tinkerbell" fanatics going after fans who deeply believe in Disney, and stake their businesses on in (like travel bookings), howling that there needs to be a course correction. Youtube has umpteen videos -- on articles -- charting the fall, so much so even big business names like Forbes is commenting on the dumpster fires. Teachers and toy retailers are noticing the dearth of youth interest in Star Wars.

:) Space Horsies. "Always, I want to be with you..." :p

Quote from: Snowman0147;1112648The only way to fix Star Wars now is for Disney to sell it off to people who are not political fanatics, have these people say the Disney canon is false, fire Kathleen, fire her followers, bring back the expanded universe as canon as it was, and continue on a few thousand years later in the future of Star Wars.  Given Knights of the Old Republic was four thousand years in the past it would be nice to see Star Wars four thousand years after the first trilogy.  New jedis, new siths, and new stories of good vs evil to tell to the next generation without bullshit that politics bring.  Keep it with the classical hero of the thousand faces structure, but without it being a the repeat of the first trilogy.

EDIT: Actually I am going to take that idea for my own setting and skip the Star Wars bit.

I'd probably set it a thousand years in the future so the OT characters can still be remembered as legends, and you can have stuff like the Quest for Darth Vader's lightsaber. :D I'd probably bring in a bit more of a 'Dune' vibe to emphasise the feeling of Deep Time, with some Force-using historians/psychics who may or may not consider themselves Jedi. Perhaps a renascent Sith Empire would work well battling a largely non-Force User & human-dominated 'secular' state, the old Jedi remembered only in legends that need to be rediscovered by a new generation of potential Jedi. Also needs to be plenty of space for non-Force User characters such as diplomats/aristocrats from the human 'empire' (presumably a descendant of the New Republic), fuzzy aliens, mercenaries, pirates, smugglers et al. :) The Sith could also be trying to harness the power of Darth Sidious and other sources to conquer the Galaxy, but hampered by the usual internal conflict.

I think what would be really good, that Star Wars has mostly shied away from, is big space battles between two peer competitors. Begin with the bad guy's Dark Side powers giving them a big edge, so they are growing rapidly at the expense of the human empire & neutral/minor powers. But don't just lazily re-run Empire vs Rebels again.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1112648The only way to fix Star Wars now is for Disney to sell it off to people who are not political fanatics, have these people say the Disney canon is false, fire Kathleen, fire her followers, bring back the expanded universe as canon as it was, and continue on a few thousand years later in the future of Star Wars.  Given Knights of the Old Republic was four thousand years in the past it would be nice to see Star Wars four thousand years after the first trilogy.  New jedis, new siths, and new stories of good vs evil to tell to the next generation without bullshit that politics bring.  Keep it with the classical hero of the thousand faces structure, but without it being a the repeat of the first trilogy.

EDIT: Actually I am going to take that idea for my own setting and skip the Star Wars bit.

I like this a lot. As long as it brings back the hopefulness of the OT, and people to root for in spite of their flaws. Also please have Dave Filoni and Timothy Zahn write it.

I was baffled by the series of articles that started coming out around TLJ (IIRC) that Star Wars fundamentally has no place to go and is a boring and closed universe. Really? It's a sandbox with some mythology and rules of magic, effectively.

I re-watched An American Tail a while back, which was one of my favorite movies when I was a little kid. I was shocked to see Kathleen Kennedy in the credits, but I guess she did work with Spielberg a fair bit.

Agenda-driven resentment is a terrible thing. I don't generally believe in hard and fast rules, but it does seem to consistently make art bad.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1112688I was baffled by the series of articles that started coming out around TLJ (IIRC) that Star Wars fundamentally has no place to go and is a boring and closed universe. Really? It's a sandbox with some mythology and rules of magic, effectively.

Yep. Star Wars has lots of places to go. The problem is lazy story, mindless action and overwrought drama dominates the movies nowadays. *Shakes cane*

There's no way to fix star wars until our culture fixes what's gone horribly wrong with it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1112771There's no way to fix star wars until our culture fixes what's gone horribly wrong with it.

I'll go one better. Star Wars is dead, murdered by Kathleen Kennedy and her willing accomplices. Until our culture returns to health, Star Wars cannot be reincarnated in any healthy form.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1112771There's no way to fix star wars until our culture fixes what's gone horribly wrong with it.

Thus why I put down the edit.

Star Wars died in 1999. Time to stop crying about it, otherwise just bite your tongue and hand over your MouseBucks.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1112788Star Wars died in 1999.

The "Not-So-Special Editions" killed Star Wars in 1997 deader than any Prequel or Sequel since they irrevocably altered the originals, for the much worse. The fact that George destroyed the original prints is an unforgivable sin.

If Disney is able to unearth and release the Original Trilogy in unaltered form, I will forever be grateful to our corporate media overlord, Disney be thy name.

In Mouse-Bucks we trust.

Quote from: Kael;1112796The "Not-So-Special Editions" killed Star Wars in 1997 deader than any Prequel or Sequel since they irrevocably altered the originals, for the much worse. The fact that George destroyed the original prints is an unforgivable sin.

If Disney is able to unearth and release the Original Trilogy in unaltered form, I will forever be grateful to our corporate media overlord, Disney be thy name.

In Mouse-Bucks we trust.

I do agree with you: it died in '97, and destruction of the originals is an unpardonable sin. :mad: I jumped off the SW Love Train right then. The prequel trilogy just cemented my disgust. The sequel trilogy is the fart in the face to the blinkered faithful.

Basically we are part of the bleeding-edge-hip "I was over Star Wars before thou" club. :cool:

Quote from: Opaopajr;1112798Basically we are part of the bleeding-edge-hip "I was over Star Wars before thou" club. :cool:

I still have my original club membership cards in the form of Special Edition movie ticket stubs that I recently found in an old shoebox. I was so hype, then so disappointed after seeing those in the theater back in '97-99.

I still bought the VHS tapes, then DVD's, then Prequel DVD's, then a 6-episode Blu-Ray boxset. So who's the sucker now? I've seen every Star Wars movie in the theater, and I'm not gonna stop now, because I hate my money. :D :)

Bitch, whine, and moan all you want. Just because TLJ was a shitshow and TFA was derivative Mary Sueism, does not mean that Star Wars: Rebels wasn't great or that Rogue One wasn't awesome or that Solo wasn't worth the money. This is Disney's learning curve and as long as fans keep voting with their dollars then the House of Mouse will learn.

Rogue One was a fun "WEG d6 Star Wars: The Movie!" - I could practically see those Force Points being spent. :D

Quote from: jeff37923;1112829Bitch, whine, and moan all you want. Just because TLJ was a shitshow and TFA was derivative Mary Sueism, does not mean that Star Wars: Rebels wasn't great or that Rogue One wasn't awesome or that Solo wasn't worth the money. This is Disney's learning curve and as long as fans keep voting with their dollars then the House of Mouse will learn.

/massive Rogue One explosion in the background as I soliliquy, a la Forest Whitaker

I stopped clapping for Tinkerbell decades ago. :D Bereft of the current stream, I stand firm amid the pool of my discontent consoled with my glorious memories of what has been...

/BOOOOOO

...and with fellow travelers stranded alike, we shall laugh as comes our doom. We shall count pips on our skill tests as we gawp at Colecovision-esque comp displays, Life Day holiday special holograms, and wookie disco-pr0n...

/OOOOOO

...For our rebellion was a sacrifice worth embarking, as I have finally come to understand, and here my story rests. Go forth Bothans!, bring a new age from the ashes of this Imperial tyranny, knowing I shall be with...

/OOOOOOM!

*transmission cuts out*

Quote from: Kael;1112796The "Not-So-Special Editions" killed Star Wars in 1997 deader than any Prequel or Sequel since they irrevocably altered the originals, for the much worse. The fact that George destroyed the original prints is an unforgivable sin.

If Disney is able to unearth and release the Original Trilogy in unaltered form, I will forever be grateful to our corporate media overlord, Disney be thy name.

In Mouse-Bucks we trust.

Egads! I had completely forgotten about those, what horrific and confounding alterations and they've aged even more poorly now. You are absolutely right, thank you for correcting Time Of Death. :D

Quote from: Antiquation!;1112947Egads! I had completely forgotten about those, what horrific and confounding alterations and they've aged even more poorly now. You are absolutely right, thank you for correcting Time Of Death. :D

This is why I laugh my ass off at George Litigation Lucas crying boo-hoo-hoo at mean ol Disney messing with his 'vision'. Karma.

Quote from: Omega;1113188This is why I laugh my ass off at George Litigation Lucas crying boo-hoo-hoo at mean ol Disney messing with his 'vision'. Karma.

I cheered when Andrew Ainsworth won his copyright case against Lucas. Ol' Georgie can stay as salty as he wants about Mouse Wars for all I care. Go make another Red Tails you hack.

Lucas selling Star Wars to disney turned out to be the greatest thing that ever happened to him. In retrospect, his prequels and remakes of the original trilogy look like far lesser abominations than they once did.

It's like Tiberius having chosen Caligula as his successor.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1113528Lucas selling Star Wars to disney turned out to be the greatest thing that ever happened to him. In retrospect, his prequels and remakes of the original trilogy look like far lesser abominations than they once did.

It's like Tiberius having chosen Caligula as his successor.

I'm haunted by similar sentiments from Razorfist... who said upon Lucas's sale: "Mark my words kids, two-months after 'The Force Awakening', you'll be praying to Jesus-Tittyfucking-Christ for Uncle George to come back and take over the reins of this disaster, and the Prequels will start looking a lot better than you remember."

And yes... I feel like a Roman Senator sharing a seat with Caligula's mount, who is now also a Senator, while the horse takes a Cleveland Steamer in the chambers whilst I'm making my proclamations.

I feel the same way about Hollywood, Marvel/DC comics, D&D, WoD, Blizzard Games, Social Media, Big Tech writ-large, Big Publishing and probably a few other things culturally important to me.

Quote from: tenbones;1113563I'm haunted by similar sentiments from Razorfist... who said upon Lucas's sale: "Mark my words kids, two-months after 'The Force Awakening', you'll be praying to Jesus-Tittyfucking-Christ for Uncle George to come back and take over the reins of this disaster, and the Prequels will start looking a lot better than you remember."

And yes... I feel like a Roman Senator sharing a seat with Caligula's mount, who is now also a Senator, while the horse takes a Cleveland Steamer in the chambers whilst I'm making my proclamations.

I feel the same way about Hollywood, Marvel/DC comics, D&D, WoD, Blizzard Games, Social Media, Big Tech writ-large, Big Publishing and probably a few other things culturally important to me.

There are some folks I like in Hollywood, most not though. Most don't seem to represent anything particularly entertaining or educational. I'm pretty much running and playing old school D&D and RPGs, although I am running a 5e Adventures in Middle Earth Campaign at the moment, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. I'm really in the process of withdrawing from social media though. At one time, it held promise of being a great equalizer and promoting enlightened free and open discussions to improve our common future, It's being used instead to divide and conquer, and people are using it deliberately to conceal truths and crimes, and to create dissension, and disharmony.

The technology is supposed to improve the real world, instead it is being used irresponsibly by  corporations, governments, and greedy business people to further divide the peoples into different classes, with each class holding different (Some more, some less) rights, and responsibilities (some more, and some less). It is being used to create inequality. The solution, which is manifesting is that people that are disaffected are discontinuing their use of technology, that established truth in science is being deliberately ignored or concealed, and that people are openly mistrustful of technology, because of the misapplication of science.

In that environment, I'm stepping off the crazy train and creating a separate reality, one where the truth is revered, where justice is served instead of injustice, and one where people are treated with integrity and respect. There will be no one that will be paid by myself, or by any of my peers if I have any say at all to ruin the things that I enjoy or love. Good Luck with trying that!

Good post Game Daddy.

I don't know how much of a separate reality we can create for ourselves, but anyone can step off the crazy train into a media-free or media-minimal existence which is probably a very healthy option.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1113576There are some folks I like in Hollywood, most not though. Most don't seem to represent anything particularly entertaining or educational. I'm pretty much running and playing old school D&D and RPGs, although I am running a 5e Adventures in Middle Earth Campaign at the moment, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. I'm really in the process of withdrawing from social media though. At one time, it held promise of being a great equalizer and promoting enlightened free and open discussions to improve our common future, It's being used instead to divide and conquer, and people are using it deliberately to conceal truths and crimes, and to create dissension, and disharmony.

The technology is supposed to improve the real world, instead it is being used irresponsibly by  corporations, governments, and greedy business people to further divide the peoples into different classes, with each class holding different (Some more, some less) rights, and responsibilities (some more, and some less). It is being used to create inequality. The solution, which is manifesting is that people that are disaffected are discontinuing their use of technology, that established truth in science is being deliberately ignored or concealed, and that people are openly mistrustful of technology, because of the misapplication of science.

In that environment, I'm stepping off the crazy train and creating a separate reality, one where the truth is revered, where justice is served instead of injustice, and one where people are treated with integrity and respect. There will be no one that will be paid by myself, or by any of my peers if I have any say at all to ruin the things that I enjoy or love. Good Luck with trying that!

I quit social media in 2012. Quit Google in 2015. You can do it!

Quote from: tenbones;1113563I'm haunted by similar sentiments from Razorfist... who said upon Lucas's sale: "Mark my words kids, two-months after 'The Force Awakening', you'll be praying to Jesus-Tittyfucking-Christ for Uncle George to come back and take over the reins of this disaster, and the Prequels will start looking a lot better than you remember."

I enjoyed Force Awakens, though it did feel like they needed a bit more exposition/training in the middle for Rei to use force powers near the end. I even thought they did a decent job of showing that Kylo Ren was going easy on her during the lightsaber fight. Not as good as the original 3, but better than episode 1. And I liked Rogue One quite a bit. Probably my favorite Star Wars movie other than the original trilogy.

But The Last Jedi was a hot mess which got worse the more you thought about it. It had a few cool moments, but it set the entire setting on fire for no apparent reason - both characters & continuity. (ex: if a single ship can warp through entire fleets - why in the heck didn't The Separatists have a bunch of drone ships do that)

I haven't even bothered watching Solo yet, though I probably should watch it while it's still free on Netflix. I've heard that it's pretty decent, and I'm sure that it'll leave Netflix soon with Disney Plus starting soon.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1113597I enjoyed Force Awakens, though it did feel like they needed a bit more exposition/training in the middle for Rei to use force powers near the end. I even thought they did a decent job of showing that Kylo Ren was going easy on her during the lightsaber fight. Not as good as the original 3, but better than episode 1. And I liked Rogue One quite a bit. Probably my favorite Star Wars movie other than the original trilogy.

But The Last Jedi was a hot mess which got worse the more you thought about it. It had a few cool moments, but it set the entire setting on fire for no apparent reason - both characters & continuity. (ex: if a single ship can warp through entire fleets - why in the heck didn't The Separatists have a bunch of drone ships do that)

I haven't even bothered watching Solo yet, though I probably should watch it while it's still free on Netflix. I've heard that it's pretty decent, and I'm sure that it'll leave Netflix soon with Disney Plus starting soon.

First off - I don't necessarily want to turn this into another Star Wars discussion, those things suck the oxygen out of the room, even in threads dedicated to them. But I generally agree with you here. And fwiw - I liked Solo... quite a bit, with the caveats - 1) Just pretend Han Solo is his dumb kid brother. 2) My reaction *might* be due to the shitshow that *is* Star Wars currently, and that Solo just seemed more fun than it is. But I've seen it *three* times and I still enjoy it, so...

A big part of this problem in Pop Culture is that it's become politicized and corporatized. Combined with a largely politically and philosophically illiterate and unprincipled populace, which we're now living through the results. The technology is merely the means by which this shitstorm has emerged.

Generally speaking, the Id's are running wild. And its revealing how poorly developed the collective psyches of the west have become. They're weak little screaming emotionally stunted children, wailing for false peace their new retarded religion is promising them at our expense.

I'm not sure we're going to recover or rehabilitate some of these IP's. I think there is a good reason to let them die, or at least let their now radioactive half-lives expire. In the meantime, I see it as a promising time to create new awesome things for people that *want* awesome things!

Quote from: tenbones;1113634I'm not sure we're going to recover or rehabilitate some of these IP's. I think there is a good reason to let them die, or at least let their now radioactive half-lives expire. In the meantime, I see it as a promising time to create new awesome things for people that *want* awesome things!

This. Between Star Wars, Marvel Comics, endless remakes and reboots & etc., it creeps me out the extent to which popular culture continues to be dominated by things my friends and I were into when we were 10 years old.

Quote from: S'mon;1112856Rogue One was a fun "WEG d6 Star Wars: The Movie!" - I could practically see those Force Points being spent. :D

So true!

I rewatched Rogue One recently and I was struck by how the characters felt like RPG characters you would see around the table for a Star Wars game. You could stat them all using the WEG SW 1e templates.

Quote from: tenbones;1113634In the meantime, I see it as a promising time to create new awesome things for people that *want* awesome things!

Agreed. There will be a breakout hit with fresh new ideas and mass appeal. It may or may not come from Hollywood, and maybe not from the USA, but it will come and it won't be about nostalgia or meta-media or any form of rehash. My bet is an Anime with huge crossover appeal will happen soon and "animated movies for adults" will become a thing in US theaters.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1113738Agreed. There will be a breakout hit with fresh new ideas and mass appeal. It may or may not come from Hollywood, and maybe not from the USA, but it will come and it won't be about nostalgia or meta-media or any form of rehash. My bet is an Anime with huge crossover appeal will happen soon and "animated movies for adults" will become a thing in US theaters.

The US considers 2D cartoons of any kind to be artistically worthless. 3D cartoons nowadays really are artistically void, but make oodles of money anyway.

Anime is a niche market in the West. Furthermore, most anime is aimed social recluses in Japan so it is full of nerd wish fulfillment fantasy like (quite literally) nerds with cellphones saving Fantasyland while surrounded by a harem of ridiculously busty bimbos. That's the typical anime plot nowadays.

When was the last time you watched anime? 2000?

Anime makes me sad. 10 years ago if somebody said, "Anime is just deviant wish fullfillment!" Id get defensive. Now I just say "Yup".

The overall state of animation makes me miserable as that was my major.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1113769Anime makes me sad. 10 years ago if somebody said, "Anime is just deviant wish fullfillment!" Id get defensive. Now I just say "Yup".

The overall state of animation makes me miserable as that was my major.

Totally agree with you. All Western animation nowadays is either idiocy aimed at small children, enjoyable by the whole family, or dead baby comedy. There's nothing for teenagers or adults with taste.

Japanese animation has a variety of genres for people of all ages. The problem is that when it is exported to the West, the exporters don't maintain the demographic categories used by the original. This means that all the anime actually aimed at adults is overwhelmed by a deluge of hot garbage aimed at horny teenage boys, and anime that was originally aimed at horny teenage boys is given R-ratings because of cultural differences.

I don't watch anime anymore because the effort required to sift through the mountains of garbage on the multiple streaming services I am subscribed isn't worth it.

I have the patience to sift through the garbage: Im saying that even the ratio of garbage to non-garbage has increased.

And Im not against childrens animation. Making shows for kids was my original intent. Im saying childrens TV has also gotten worse.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113770Totally agree with you. All Western animation nowadays is either idiocy aimed at small children, enjoyable by the whole family, or dead baby comedy. There's nothing for teenagers or adults with taste.

Japanese animation has a variety of genres for people of all ages. The problem is that when it is exported to the West, the exporters don't maintain the demographic categories used by the original. This means that all the anime actually aimed at adults is overwhelmed by a deluge of hot garbage aimed at horny teenage boys, and anime that was originally aimed at horny teenage boys is given R-ratings because of cultural differences.

I don't watch anime anymore because the effort required to sift through the mountains of garbage on the multiple streaming services I am subscribed isn't worth it.

Not seeing this. Japanese anime is largely targeted at teenagers. Manga on the other hand has a much wider range but the better material is only slowly translated.

Anime is just hairless furry is all.

Quote from: Rhiannon;1113859Not seeing this. Japanese anime is largely targeted at teenagers. Manga on the other hand has a much wider range but the better material is only slowly translated.

The genres marketed toward the 18-30 demographic are josei (for women) and seinen (for men). Naturally, the English streaming services don't tell you which anime are josei or seinen.

Quote from: Rhiannon;1113859Not seeing this. Japanese anime is largely targeted at teenagers. Manga on the other hand has a much wider range but the better material is only slowly translated.

I think as a whole, there's anime aimed at all kinds of different groups, but maybe EVERYTHING is aimed at teenagers to one degree or another.  Or saying that something appeals to teens is the least descriptive thing you COULD say.  If the show is engaging/exciting/well-written it's going to appeal to teens and adults.  If it's cartoonish but not dumb it'll appeal to kids and teens.  

I don't think a film like Grave of the Fireflies is specifically aimed at a teen market, nor do I think that Tanuki Wars is directly aimed at teens.  Black Heaven (How Hard Rock saved the Space!) really seems aimed more at the mid-life crisis crowd than high school students.  

There are series/films that are aimed DIRECTLY at teens/pre-teens but if they're done well they should appeal broadly.  Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade is enjoyed by adults even if it is for 13+; there's no reason adults couldn't enjoy Bubblegum Crisis, Trigun, or Cowboy Beebop.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113754The US considers 2D cartoons of any kind to be artistically worthless. 3D cartoons nowadays really are artistically void, but make oodles of money anyway.

Into the Spiderverse had both artistic value and financial success, and think something akin to that might be a breakout success. I don't think the "next big thing" will be either traditional animation nor anime, but a blend of some kind that captures the zeitgeist.

Hollywood is learning the unnecessary remake and bad sequel train is a very hit and miss venture. Sooner or later, something like 300 will be made and become a surprise hit that spins off its own imitators.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113754When was the last time you watched anime? 2000?

I prefer reading manga to watching anime, but I've watched modern anime and there's a spectrum of plots. I don't think "nerd wish fulfillment fantasy" is new or Japanese. It was the plot of Never Ending Story, Back to the Future and plenty of other classic Western movies because it speaks loudly to both teens and adults.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1113638This. Between Star Wars, Marvel Comics, endless remakes and reboots & etc., it creeps me out the extent to which popular culture continues to be dominated by things my friends and I were into when we were 10 years old.

Its not so much that as in many cases a variation on outrage marketing.

Take something that was liked years ago and remake it in the worst ways possible. All the complaints will draw attention to your atrocity. Except it doesnt really work and instead you are more likely to lose money. Or your career if your name gets indelibly connected to the problem. But venues will continue to try it because hay, it worked maybee once and marketing says its free advertising!

And if it is a failure you can then blame the failure on those mean ol fans who must be misogynists and racists to hate this poor defenseless agenda, er, product!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113754The US considers 2D cartoons of any kind to be artistically worthless. 3D cartoons nowadays really are artistically void, but make oodles of money anyway.

That is debatable. CGI animation tends to be horrendously expensive unless you cut alot of corners which then damages chances of success. Theres a growing list of CGI movies that have failed, sometimes massively so.

And it is not so much that the US considers traditional cartoons worthless as Hollywood considers them not profitable. And CGI shows will take the next hit at some point and we will see a swing back to trad art or something else. I dont think it will happen anytime soon unless theres a really big bomb that really shakes up the industry against CGI. But more likely they will create some new fake excuse for why it failed like they did with "uncanny valley".

Quote from: Spinachcat;1113971Into the Spiderverse had both artistic value and financial success, and think something akin to that might be a breakout success. I don't think the "next big thing" will be either traditional animation nor anime, but a blend of some kind that captures the zeitgeist.

Hollywood is learning the unnecessary remake and bad sequel train is a very hit and miss venture. Sooner or later, something like 300 will be made and become a surprise hit that spins off its own imitators.

The problem is Sturgeon's Law. Most media in general will be mediocre, especially in saturated markets. CGI animation and franchises are saturated right now, so the absolute number of bad ones is much higher than if it was not saturated even though the relative number remains constant (the Law claims 90-99% is crap).

Naturally, all the bad stuff from the past is forgotten and ignored whenever people nostalgically claim things are worse now than they were before. The past is chock full of mediocre media, and even media that is fondly remembered may not hold up to modern scrutiny.

For example, the Ben 10 franchise has been rebooted several times since it's a toy franchise. The first few times were technically soft-reboots within the same supposed continuity (retools?) but a bunch of retcons were involved (one episode made a joke where they pointed this out and stated that the reboots were made in-universe by incompetent omnipotent aliens; and other episodes explain that there is a multiverse of alternate timelines). If you rewatch it as an adult and don't let yourself be blinded by nostalgia, then you probably notice that the writing has tons of issues (not just the pointless retcons, the show also is full of filler, unfinished arcs, idiot plots, etc) and the animation commonly suffers from budgeting limitations (e.g. rampant copypasting of background extras, recycling character designs, off-model animation). Whenever a new retool of the franchise comes out, it starts out fairly competent but then the overall quality quickly degrades with every subsequent season of that retool. The most recent retool/reboot is unique in that it maintains a consistent level of quality across seasons... because the quality to start with was so awful that it can't get worse. We're talking Spongebob post-movie levels of bad, and every Cartoon Network show nowadays is like that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1113971I prefer reading manga to watching anime, but I've watched modern anime and there's a spectrum of plots. I don't think "nerd wish fulfillment fantasy" is new or Japanese. It was the plot of Never Ending Story, Back to the Future and plenty of other classic Western movies because it speaks loudly to both teens and adults.

The difference is that those Western examples actually put effort into their plots. That's why we remember them and not the deluge of bad movies that came out around the same time.

I'm not talking out of my ass. The current nerd wish fulfillment trend in anime is called "isekai" (read: obnoxious nerd travels to a generic D&D campaign setting, gets victory and harem girls handed to him on a silver platter without effort; basic idea dates back at least to 1666 with Margaret Cavendish's The Blazing World). The market so saturated that publishers have started banning it from submissions (https://goboiano.com/kodansha-bans-isekai-and-teen-heroes-in-light-novel-contest/).

You can immediately judge the quality of an isekai by the protagonist on the cover art. If the protagonist is a teenage boy (or a teenage boy in the body of his video game avatar), then it will be horrible. If the protagonist is a grown man, or a girl of any age, then it may be worth watching.

Quote from: Omega;1113977That is debatable. CGI animation tends to be horrendously expensive unless you cut alot of corners which then damages chances of success. Theres a growing list of CGI movies that have failed, sometimes massively so.

And it is not so much that the US considers traditional cartoons worthless as Hollywood considers them not profitable. And CGI shows will take the next hit at some point and we will see a swing back to trad art or something else. I dont think it will happen anytime soon unless theres a really big bomb that really shakes up the industry against CGI. But more likely they will create some new fake excuse for why it failed like they did with "uncanny valley".

The uncanny valley isn't a fake excuse. There's actual science behind it. I watched the first episode of The Mandalorian and I found myself more interested in trying to distinguish the CGI. That's not a good thing.

That means something was wrong with the show, with the market, and with myself. The show obviously didn't interest me (although that may just be me since I have trouble mustering interest in anything nowadays). Unless the entire movie is CGI, the CGI should not itself be the focus of the movie. The market has trained me to look specifically for CGI when I should be enjoying the story, even when the CGI isn't the main focus. The constant use of cheap ugly fake CGI across the board has trained me to be hyper-focused on the effects when I shouldn't be. While watching, I constantly find myself holding an internal contest to determine whether a given effect is practical or CGI. I find myself wondering why they didn't just film everything in very cheap CGI and photoshop the actors' faces in later, because I would genuinely find that more entertaining. My suspension of disbelief is thoroughly broken from the moment I start watching because I simply don't care about anything but mocking the technical work.

This problem is not unique to CGI either. Any kind of mixed media will elicit the same reaction unless it serves a purpose in the story. The old Zoids anime used a mix of 2D animation and CGI, but the CGI was filtered to make it blend with the 2D animation. Nowadays no such effort is put in and all the cheap CGI is extremely jarring. By contrast, Puella Magi uses Dada art and stop-motion for its acid trip sequences to make then standout; this is infinitely more creative and entertaining than any CGI I've ever seen in my life.

Congratulations Hollywood. Your narcissistic idiotic obsession with showing how expensive and hyper-realistic your CGI is has destroyed my ability to enjoy your media. I can't even enjoy practical effects anymore because I've been trained to focus on it by you.

Damn SFX. Damn SFX to hell.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113988Congratulations Hollywood. Your narcissistic idiotic obsession with showing how expensive and hyper-realistic your CGI is has destroyed my ability to enjoy your media. I can't even enjoy practical effects anymore because I've been trained to focus on it by you.

I agree with your entire post. It's a good breakdown of the current entertainment media scene.

Unless movie has solid writing and solid acting, its definitely harder to get lost in the story and ignore the FX wobbles. Instead, the vast majority of movies are poorly written with mediocre acting so we're not engaged enough to forgive the FX, and even worse as you pointed out, many studios think flashy FX can carry the movie, but that ship sailed years ago.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113770Totally agree with you. All Western animation nowadays is either idiocy aimed at small children, enjoyable by the whole family, or dead baby comedy.

What's an example of dead baby comedy?

Quote from: Aglondir;1114150What's an example of dead baby comedy?

Family Guy, American Dad, etc. Basically cartoons marketed as "mature" when what they really mean is "immature humor for adults."

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114171Family Guy, American Dad, etc. Basically cartoons marketed as "mature" when what they really mean is "immature humor for adults."

Genndy Tartakovsky's Primal on AS is excellent. And Europe and South America continue to produce quality animated features like The Red Turtle and Bunuel in the Labyrinth of Turtles on a regular basis.

I loathed Primal, and, of course, Bojak is the exception that proves the rules. As was the Frisky Dingo crowd of projects in their era.

The glut of crap makes it easier to immediately identify something good when you see it ... and also disguises it, making it harder to find in the first place. You pretty much HAVE to find a curator you trust ... or burn a lot of time and energy being disappointed.