So I am running a sort of sandbox sort of themepark summer campaign, and it's genuinely a bit different for me. Some things to share...
1) This is a whole lot easier than prepping something like Rise of the Runelords. After initial spin-up, I haven't put more than a few minutes of prep in to the game. I'm winging everything, basically playing the world itself as if it were an NPC. That plus my usual bag of plotshaping tricks and we're going along full blast. Again, it's just so EASY.
2) Video games are ruining our youth. 90% serious on that one. For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'. "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment." Their imaginations seem stunted to me. Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.
3) I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?
Thoughts always appreciated.
And, just to pimp the idea again, thread is here... http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29645
Feedback and or borrowee awesomeness is alos always welcome.
Quote from: mcbobbo;7534032) Video games are ruining our youth. 90% serious on that one. For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'. "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment." Their imaginations seem stunted to me. Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.
3) I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?
2) Yes, yes it has. We have a very well trained generation nowadays where casually using expendable items is. just. not. done. Gotta hoard 99 of each potion, just in case of a boss battle. That special potion item? Gotta be a key item, not an actual one-shot reward.
I don't know what to say, as throwing more expendable items into the game will seriously throw off your setting, yet them's the breaks for playing super cautiously. I guess reiterating that this game is a sandbox and there's no King's Quest chain of correct play to find the MacGuffin, but would they really hear the words coming out of your mouth? At least it is a step up from FF XIII "hold pressing straight forward to reach the end!" dungeon exploration.
3) As for telling them you use random tables, tell them proudly, and expound how it makes for a better game experience as both GM and players. Explain how it is merely a delegation tool for content generation parameters and that you, the GM, have selected those which makes sense for your setting areas. Explain how it generates this custom content of yours in ways that will surprise even you, making achievements vs. more powerful encounters, or gaining rarer treasures early, that much more precious and meaningful. Explain how these tables free up prep time to create even more content, like new hooks or NPC agendas.
Teach them that the old ways were not unaware of programming and seeding areas, like modern video games. But then explain how these tables have human judgment behind them and can be used or adjusted as needed over time, a level of dynamism and personalization beyond anything they are used to from fixed programs. Play up how tables are a mere tool to enhance the strength of RPGs.
Personally I'm running Rise of the Runelords as a sandbox, or eventually maybe a collection of sandboxes (currently the 'box' is Sandpoint & its Hinterlands, but that box will eventually expand to include Magnimar, and presumably the campaign will move over to the Turtleback Ferry area box if I run Book 3). Works much better than the linear RoTRL campaign I played in. One result is that the published material gets used very slowly, since the PCs are doing lots of other stuff too, but I have it to fall back on for inspiration or even to use as-is.
When I've tried to run Sandbox campaigns I've had similar problems.
One that has come up in my group is the expectation of getting magic stuff like swords and armor early on and then just getting better versions each level or so. To me it sort of lessens the impact of magic items but to most in my group they just want new shiny toys. Its reminiscent of games like diablo. Has that happened in your campaign?
One way I've found to get rid of the "key card mentality" is to make some real minor useless magic items that are interesting. Like a goblet that can cool or warm liquids. no actual game use but fun non the less and it gets the players thinking about uses for other minor magic items.
Also your campaign pitch seems pretty awesome!
To your point #2, I've definitely noticed the change in expectations. I think straight up letting them know their expectations are flawed (e.g. by telling them you're using random tables) might help. I've also found that getting away from bog standard magic items, even if that just means altering descriptions (although tweaking properties, too, is better) helps get away from the stockpiling syndrome, as you're much less likely to have multiples of any one thing.
Quote from: mcbobbo;753403For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'. "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment." Their imaginations seem stunted to me. Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.
Wait until they find something where this is the perfect solution. They'll feel like fucking geniuses, especially if they had to scrape through without "blowing" their illusion dust earlier on.
Their behaviour isn't "wrong", it's just different.
Quote3) I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?
No, don't spoil the illusion for them if they are perfectly happy with how things are going, just sit back and take the credit (Especially as it's you that's actually doing all the hard work, the tables are just a starting point). It sounds like everyone is enjoying themselves, and that's the most important thing.
Quote from: Opaopajr;7534142) Yes, yes it has. We have a very well trained generation nowadays where casually using expendable items is. just. not. done. Gotta hoard 99 of each potion, just in case of a boss battle. That special potion item? Gotta be a key item, not an actual one-shot reward.
I don't know if you can pass this one off entirely on the young folk. My entire group, myself included, has always been bad about hoarding potions and other expendables. Even way back in the 80's I was hesitant to use them in case I might need them later.
Quote from: Raven;753549I don't know if you can pass this one off entirely on the young folk. My entire group, myself included, has always been bad about hoarding potions and other expendables. Even way back in the 80's I was hesitant to use them in case I might need them later.
Yeah, I've always been a bit that way myself. Even recently, my Earthdawn PC had a magic bow that held jewels that could be added into attacks... kind of like fireballs. I had a box of them but I only recall using a couple of them... and they weren't even that hard to replace.
On the other hand, playing video games like World of Warcraft really helped cement for me what the advantages of TTRPGs are... what I want out of them... what things are better left to video games. WOW also gave me lots of ideas on how to set up a sandbox... because that's largely what it is, except that it doesn't really respond to anything the players do... well, a bit now... with the addition of the 'phasing' thing.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;753422Also your campaign pitch seems pretty awesome!
Thank you! I've had the darndest time getting feedback on the thing. Bad self confidence from being told my writing/design stuff sucks, I guess.
Quote from: Simlasa;753555On the other hand, playing video games like World of Warcraft really helped cement for me what the advantages of TTRPGs are... what I want out of them... what things are better left to video games. WOW also gave me lots of ideas on how to set up a sandbox... because that's largely what it is, except that it doesn't really respond to anything the players do... well, a bit now... with the addition of the 'phasing' thing.
That's actually what I meant about the "themepark" part. Like in WoW, the 'quests' they're not currently doing will remain pretty static. Unless they take forever to get around to it. Then I might lurch it forward as a 'look over here' plot device.
So yeah, not all bad influence. But definitely looking for keyholes where there aren't any.
Another example involved a golem they were having trouble defeating. They kept looking for the "off switch". "Maybe if we tell it to stop in Infernal..."
Quote from: mcbobbo;753559Another example involved a golem they were having trouble defeating. They kept looking for the "off switch". "Maybe if we tell it to stop in Infernal..."
Isn't that a standard golem thing though? In the old silent movie Der Golem is brought down by a little girl who plucks the star off its chest.
Quote from: mcbobbo;753403So I am running a sort of sandbox sort of themepark summer campaign, and it's genuinely a bit different for me. Some things to share...
2) Video games are ruining our youth. 90% serious on that one. For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'. "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment." Their imaginations seem stunted to me. Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.
Please don't take offence at this, but there's an incredible irony about your complaint about video games, when your Gordon Freeman icon is staring right at your red key card comment!...secondly, I really don't agree with this, it seems like an easy "young fogey" cliche. Look at the huge success of Skyrim as a freeroaming sandbox and how every other big budget computer rpg has starting quoting from it. I think video games have contributed to the recent rise in popularity, visibility and interest in tabletop RPGs.
Quote3) I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?
I would say no since it dispels any impression of depth you might be able to suggest.
Quote from: Bilharzia;753718Please don't take offence at this, but there's an incredible irony about your complaint about video games, when your Gordon Freeman icon is staring right at your red key card comment!...secondly, I really don't agree with this, it seems like an easy "young fogey" cliche. Look at the huge success of Skyrim as a freeroaming sandbox and how every other big budget computer rpg has starting quoting from it. I think video games have contributed to the recent rise in popularity, visibility and interest in tabletop RPGs.
I would say no since it dispels any impression of depth you might be able to suggest.
No offense taken. I am very much a digital immigrant. And actually the key card is a Doom reference that predates my actual group. I do love Half Life, but I chose Gordon mostly because he looks a lot like me. It was either him or Egon, but I couldn't find an old-but-not-round-faced pic of Ramus to use...
Yes it could just be my perception, but perceiving it still annoys the crap out of me.
:)
Quote from: Bilharzia;753718Look at the huge success of Skyrim as a freeroaming sandbox and how every other big budget computer rpg has starting quoting from it.
I have to admit that once I had experienced the Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and Fallout 3 my interest has really waned with other games that don't have that level of freedom.
Quote from: mcbobbo;7534031) This is a whole lot easier than prepping something like Rise of the Runelords. After initial spin-up, I haven't put more than a few minutes of prep in to the game. I'm winging everything, basically playing the world itself as if it were an NPC. That plus my usual bag of plotshaping tricks and we're going along full blast. Again, it's just so EASY.
Yes. This is the true Path of the Lazy GM. Embrace it. Let it flow through you.
Quote from: mcbobbo;7534032) Video games are ruining our youth. 90% serious on that one. For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'. "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment." Their imaginations seem stunted to me. Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.
I wouldn't say ruined, but there's definitely a set of expectations from video games that you may want to explicitly explain aren't relevant in your game.
Quote from: mcbobbo;7534033) I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?
Nah. Let it be GM magic. A lot of being a good GM is making it seem like things are much more defined than they really are.
As far as #2, I'd say no, the younger players in my games have usually been about the same as the older ones. People squirrel stuff away or don't, irrespective of video games. RPG's and VG's share some similarities, like "level bosses" which probably originated in TTRPG's, so trying to keep it out of the game is largely futile.
Yeah.. I really know very little about video games (I never play them!) but my overall impression was that if anything, video game rpgs are becoming consistently MORE sandboxy and LESS railroady. Is that mistaken?
Quote from: RPGPundit;754395Yeah.. I really know very little about video games (I never play them!) but my overall impression was that if anything, video game rpgs are becoming consistently MORE sandboxy and LESS railroady. Is that mistaken?
Some games, like Fallout and Skyrim, have a center storyline but you can wander all over the place and go nuts with sidequests. See those mountains in the distance? You can walk over there and do stuff if you've got a mind to. It's not across the board though. Most newer games I've played lately... Bioshock and Tomb Raider, were still VERY linear, though trying to look a lot bigger. Tossing in little 'achievement' challenges doesn't count.
I don't really expect videogames to pull off the sandbox thing... except maybe MMOs... but I like it when you're given a number of choices about how to go about completing missions... like the original Deus Ex allowed. Even that still doesn't feel common.
Quote from: RPGPundit;754395Yeah.. I really know very little about video games (I never play them!) but my overall impression was that if anything, video game rpgs are becoming consistently MORE sandboxy and LESS railroady. Is that mistaken?
You are not.
Some of the most successful video games in recent history have been open sandbox affairs with either semi-optional main storylines, or no storylines at all.
Critical opinion as well is starting to turn sharply against the big-budget railroad fests.
Seriously people, could you be any more old?
Quote from: J Arcane;754407or no storylines at all.
What are some of those?
QuoteSeriously people, could you be any more old?
There are a LOT of games out there... I'm about to buy the new Wolfenstein game... but that doesn't look to be very sandboxy at all.
Quote from: J Arcane;754407Seriously people, could you be any more old?
We could be dead? But I'm in the same boat as Pundit, I usually ask my sons or nephews about video games, since I don't have much interest in them.
Quote from: Simlasa;754408What are some of those?
Minecraft.
The computer RPG for the young generation (8+) is Minecraft, which you could say has a narrative but no crafted storylines except for the players own making. This game is far closer to a tabletop rpg in spirit than Skyrim/Fallout/Dragon Age, even if the appeal is baffling to most people over 20.
Quote from: Bilharzia;754420Minecraft.
Doh! I should have thought of that. Yep, no real mission except to thrive and survive. Well, and that dragon thing if you care to go after it.
Quoteeven if the appeal is baffling to most people over 20.
My friends and I have been playing lots of Minecraft... not sure what that says about us.
I'm not sure how much influence from Minecraft would make it into an TTRPG I ran... the terror of sudden floods... maybe the torches going out leaving you in total darkness with the sounds of skeletons nearby.
That's more about the traditional divide between American video game publishing, which has had a great resurgence in interest — compared to the waning days of life without Ultima or a good Might and Magic — over recent years, and Japanese (and sometimes Europe) video game publishing. American video games have a long history and strong favor towards open sandboxes. To see the hardware and software finally pick up the Japanese graphic and story flash to support the American (and sometimes Europe) go-anywhere sandbox has been an interesting cresting from its great trough 15-20 years ago.
What still needs improvement is the sloppy American AI difficulty level. Often programmers get lazy and either just say, fuck it go multiplayer, or just put the AI on cheat mode where it just moves faster, starts with more resources, or just outright colludes all factions like one hive mind. They could really learn from Japanese programmers on how to take simple components and have a refreshingly challenging AI.
Europe just needs to get over endlessly elegant integrated mechanics. You see it in their board games, their video game quests, et al. And once you figure its clockwork pattern it's sorta over and boring until you buy the next shiny, interlaced gizmo. Basically a lot of those games becomes who figured out the core driving resource first and can bluff/bully the table into not seeing it as well.
Oh, and I play, and played, a shitload of video games. Been one of my first loves. And I am quite the bitter grognard when it comes to it, as well.
Minecraft is huge, and from what I understand a very definite sandbox game.
(scratches his head) Errr ... so if your players seem to have some basic expectations you find either weird, offputting or bound to lead them into trouble, instead of talking to us about it, why not talk to them?
Say, some phrases like:
"Not every item you find has great significance. Some times things are just there because they're there, and they don't necessarily bear any relation or connection to anything else you find."
"Not everything out there is finite and/or vanishingly rare. Those Phoenix's Blood vials you found? That's a pretty basic healing elixir, and a lot of alchemists know how to make it. It's not as if you'll never come across another one. No need to hoard them like grim death."
"You're not necessarily going to have 'Boss Fights' every session. Sometimes you might find yourself fighting a tough opponent, sure. Sometimes you guys might find yourself taking on thirty soldiers at once, and maybe no single one would be much of a match for any of you, but all together, it'd be a tough battle. But that's up to you. You want to try to sneak past the fortified post instead of fighting that battle? Your choice."
And so on.
What is Minecraft?
Quote from: Marleycat;754793What is Minecraft?
https://minecraft.net/
Big construction sandbox game with optional survival element.
Also the biggest game since World of Warcraft.
Quote from: J Arcane;754797Big construction sandbox game with optional survival element.
It's like the ultimate Lego set... and despite it's appearance it can get pretty scary... at least for me... down in a pit, in the dark, when a big spider drops on me and I scream and fall out of my chair.
And those damn Endermen... just the sounds of them creeps me out.
Makes me wonder if there's been such a thing as an audio bestiary for RPGs... I've had a few GMs play music during battles and such... but never anything to represent the weird sounds the monsters make... what you HEAR in the dungeon before you SEE it.
Quote from: Marleycat;754793What is Minecraft?
It is a game that looks like a late 80s early 90s pixel game except that it is true 3D. The basic idea is that the entire playing area is comprised of different types of blocks, about a 1 by 1 by 1 meter cube. The blocks are initially arranged by a random generator to looks like a landscape.
You can dig anywhere on the map including deep underground. Some blocks give resources which you can then used to craft other types of blocks. The crafting system has tiers where higher level and more useful blocks are created from lower level blocks.
With these blocks you can stack them into any shapes that can be made by large blocks. With the additional blocks that been introduced you can make sophisticated buildings, transport systems, and in-game automation. In fact some people were able to replicate a low power CPU using just the in-game blocks.
Added to the mix are spawns (creatures and random buildings), multiplayer and nearly unlimited works to explore.
The result is the ultimate sandbox that is playable on nearly everybody's computer.
Quote from: Simlasa;754408What are some of those?
Rust and other survival games in general. Basically they feature an expansive landscape, creatures populating said landscape, a crafting system, some allow for building houses, and unrestricted player interaction.
A Rust server can have up a 100 players, some degenerate into a Lord of the Flies hellhole, while on others players band together and carve out small towns.
I quit Minecraft after winning at it; I built a giant glass penis, extending to the top of the skybox, and filled it with a spiral of lava. Job done.
Quote from: Ravenswing;754782(scratches his head) Errr ... so if your players seem to have some basic expectations you find either weird, offputting or bound to lead them into trouble, instead of talking to us about it, why not talk to them?
Say, some phrases like:
I get what you're saying, but it's a bit "guys, you're having the wrong type of fun"; at the moment it sounds like they're enjoying themselves, and that's the important thing.
These messages, if they really need to be expressed, are best expressed in-game; like, have them find someone who can make healing potions (Reasonably) quickly to order, or show them an NPC trying the direct approach to an assault and failing, or have some NPC's bicker about the relative merits of different "brands" of healing potion (They're obviously exactly the same, but it shows that they're not too uncommon).
my daughter and her mates play minecraft all the time and when they aren't playing they are watching stampy cat on minecraft build stuff.
However they hardly ever play survival mode they are always building
its like crack for 9 and 10 year olds
Quote from: jibbajibba;754811its like crack for 9 and 10 year olds
And, I daresay, for many adults, including the ones who are creating a massive scale model of Middle Earth. (http://www.mcmiddleearth.com/)
All of it.
Quote from: Ladybird;754810I quit Minecraft after winning at it; I built a giant glass penis, extending to the top of the skybox, and filled it with a spiral of lava. Job done.
I love Minecraft. I run a server for friends and family, and usually put my "public works" hat on when I play. E.g. once built a horse barn and rounded up almost one of every color, plus the golden carrots to breed them.
But it's sadly no RPG.
Quote from: Ladybird;754810I get what you're saying, but it's a bit "guys, you're having the wrong type of fun"; at the moment it sounds like they're enjoying themselves, and that's the important thing.
These messages, if they really need to be expressed, are best expressed in-game; like, have them find someone who can make healing potions (Reasonably) quickly to order, or show them an NPC trying the direct approach to an assault and failing, or have some NPC's bicker about the relative merits of different "brands" of healing potion (They're obviously exactly the same, but it shows that they're not too uncommon).
This is actually why I asked, and I haven't done much more than nudge.
This week they attempted to apply a potion to a campfire spit in order to weaken the enemies they had snuck up on. They're getting more creative as we go, which is awesome and makes me glad I haven't been snippy. Though they hadn't identified it yet and all they knew was that when you sip it you gain a deathly palor. It was invisibility from undead. I ruled that the bandits assumed their wizard was pranking them and they started having an argument.
We're meeting in the middle. :)
Quote from: mcbobbo;753403For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'. "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment." Their imaginations seem stunted to me. Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.
Agreed that the 'what does it open' would be strange to me.
But, saving the dust of illusion for when you really need it makes a lot of sense.
Quote from: J Arcane;754797https://minecraft.net/
Big construction sandbox game with optional survival element.
Also the biggest game since World of Warcraft.
It's that block game I never realized it was so popular. I've doodled around with it a few times before.
Quote from: Bill;754823Agreed that the 'what does it open' would be strange to me.
But, saving the dust of illusion for when you really need it makes a lot of sense.
Conservation of limited resources is part of skilled play. Believing that a particular limited resource has only ONE specific use, and that you need to correctly identify the key moment in order to win the game is video game logic.
On the other hand, some kinds of puzzle solving in dungeons can be very much like this and experienced video game players might really enjoy them.
As long as players can walk away from unsolved puzzles and are not forced to hoop jump then these kinds of puzzles included in an adventure do not invalidate the sandbox nature of a campaign.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;754858Conservation of limited resources is part of skilled play. Believing that a particular limited resource has only ONE specific use, and that you need to correctly identify the key moment in order to win the game is video game logic.
On the other hand, some kinds of puzzle solving in dungeons can be very much like this and experienced video game players might really enjoy them.
As long as players can walk away from unsolved puzzles and are not forced to hoop jump then these kinds of puzzles included in an adventure do not invalidate the sandbox nature of a campaign.
I guess the 'single key' is ok if it fits the setting. Would be irritating if it was 'just because'.
As much as I love computer rpg's, I find pen and paper rpg's way more fun.
The big advantage (some might consider it a disadvantage) of pen end paper rpgs is the fact you can find another solution to the 'single key' computer rpg limitation. Kinda obvious but I do seem to see a bit of that linear computer rpg style with a few younger gamers.
Quote from: Bill;754872I guess the 'single key' is ok if it fits the setting. Would be irritating if it was 'just because'.
As much as I love computer rpg's, I find pen and paper rpg's way more fun.
The big advantage (some might consider it a disadvantage) of pen end paper rpgs is the fact you can find another solution to the 'single key' computer rpg limitation. Kinda obvious but I do seem to see a bit of that linear computer rpg style with a few younger gamers.
Bear in mind that it seems like, the situation isn't "here is some magic dust, it has one particular use, go pixelbitching", but "we have some magic dust, we think it only has one use so we'd better save it". Big difference, the players have decided this on there own, and it probably isn't true.
They're going to feel great when they eventually use it. It's going to be a big game moment for them, and with zero GM setup or work, but they're going to feel they've really got one over on mcbobbo.
It's a win/win situation all round.
Actually the video game-itus I run into is people not liking the way a situation turns out and wanting a do over or retcon.
Quote from: dragoner;754898Actually the video game-itus I run into is people not liking the way a situation turns out and wanting a do over or retcon.
Yeah, that's a recent development. Sometimes I miss the days when video games were "Nintendo hard". Sometimes I don't.
Are there any tabletop games that formalize an "extra life" retcon in a way that's recognizably video-gamey? I mean, further than reroll points and their ilk.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;754904Yeah, that's a recent development. Sometimes I miss the days when video games were "Nintendo hard". Sometimes I don't.
Are there any tabletop games that formalize an "extra life" retcon in a way that's recognizably video-gamey? I mean, further than reroll points and their ilk.
Eclipse Phase maybe? None other that I really know of, I'll admit I haven't looked though.
Quote from: dragoner;754898Actually the video game-itus I run into is people not liking the way a situation turns out and wanting a do over or retcon.
I haven't seen that myself but the group I'm playing in told me that right before I joined there was a guy, grown man, who rage quit when he didn't get to restart at a 'save point' after failing a jump and falling off a cliff.
Quote from: Simlasa;754912I haven't seen that myself but the group I'm playing in told me that right before I joined there was a guy, grown man, who rage quit when he didn't get to restart at a 'save point' after failing a jump and falling off a cliff.
So I guess it is a thing. First time I was hit with it, I was like, 'wait what'? There are no do overs.
Quote from: dragoner;754915So I guess it is a thing. First time I was hit with it, I was like, 'wait what'? There are no do overs.
I suppose I head that off at the pass. "Are you SURE you want to do that? You're probably going to have to roll up a new character if you do."
Quote from: Simlasa;754912. . . [T]he group I'm playing in told me that right before I joined there was a guy, grown man, who rage quit when he didn't get to restart at a 'save point' after failing a jump and falling off a cliff.
:banghead:
Quote from: mcbobbo;754917I suppose I head that off at the pass. "Are you SURE you want to do that? You're probably going to have to roll up a new character if you do."
I usually give warning, but the times I've tried to pull punches and be nice, it has backfired. Instead, actions have consequences, so don't be surprised when the marines roll in after you threaten to gun down some Imperial Navy Investigators at a
Naval Base. It is somewhat disheartening to just throw a tpk at them though, I would at least give them the chance to surrender.
Quote from: Ladybird;754810I get what you're saying, but it's a bit "guys, you're having the wrong type of fun"; at the moment it sounds like they're enjoying themselves, and that's the important thing.
These messages, if they really need to be expressed, are best expressed in-game; like, have them find someone who can make healing potions (Reasonably) quickly to order, or show them an NPC trying the direct approach to an assault and failing, or have some NPC's bicker about the relative merits of different "brands" of healing potion (They're obviously exactly the same, but it shows that they're not too uncommon).
The flip side of that, though, is that a lot of people are firmly welded into their paradigm, and we've all seen cases where folks just had no
idea that any other way of doing things was conceivable.
That being said, I'd much rather just come out and explain how my gaming style worked, rather than expect people to infer it from the actions or speeches of NPCs, who aren't after all guaranteed to be sensible, sane or reflect my POV.
Quote from: Ravenswing;754943That being said, I'd much rather just come out and explain how my gaming style worked, rather than expect people to infer it from the actions or speeches of NPCs, who aren't after all guaranteed to be sensible, sane or reflect my POV.
Oh yeah, this GM gave me a little speech before we got started... and play has been pretty much just as he promised, tough but fair sandbox.
There was also a woman who joined us, and she had never played anything but CRPGs... so right at the start we made it clear how things might differ. She actually did really well. In her first combat she was quick to make use of tactics that wouldn't have been available in most videogames... and that didn't spring off of any particular power on her character sheet either.
Quote from: mcbobbo;7534032) Video games are ruining our youth. 90% serious on that one. For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'. "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment." Their imaginations seem stunted to me. Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.
Seen this one for decades. And I suspect its not videogames, but all story-media. It's probably the effect of Chekov's Gun. An item would not given focus unless it had importance. AKA, in almost every movie, book and comic, if the hero finds Item X, then sometime before the end of the story, the hero will use Item X to save the day.
Of course, this breaks down in RPGs where you can get random treasure.
Quote from: Spinachcat;755007Seen this one for decades. And I suspect its not videogames, but all story-media. It's probably the effect of Chekov's Gun. An item would not given focus unless it had importance. AKA, in almost every movie, book and comic, if the hero finds Item X, then sometime before the end of the story, the hero will use Item X to save the day.
Of course, this breaks down in RPGs where you can get random treasure.
Excellent point. Still I'd emphasize games as media that rewards certain patterns of thought. But you're right.