So I am running a sort of sandbox sort of themepark summer campaign,  and it's genuinely a bit different for me.  Some things to share...

1)  This is a whole lot easier than prepping something like Rise of the Runelords.  After initial spin-up, I haven't put more than a few minutes of prep in to the game.  I'm winging everything,  basically playing the world itself as if it were an NPC.  That plus my usual bag of plotshaping tricks and we're going along full blast.  Again, it's just so EASY.

2) Video games are ruining our youth.  90% serious on that one.  For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'.  "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment."  Their imaginations seem stunted to me.  Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.

3)  I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?

Thoughts always appreciated.

And, just to pimp the idea again, thread is here... http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29645

Feedback and or borrowee awesomeness is alos always welcome.

Quote from: mcbobbo;7534032) Video games are ruining our youth.  90% serious on that one.  For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'.  "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment."  Their imaginations seem stunted to me.  Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.

3)  I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?

2) Yes, yes it has. We have a very well trained generation nowadays where casually using expendable items is. just. not. done. Gotta hoard 99 of each potion, just in case of a boss battle. That special potion item? Gotta be a key item, not an actual one-shot reward.

I don't know what to say, as throwing more expendable items into the game will seriously throw off your setting, yet them's the breaks for playing super cautiously. I guess reiterating that this game is a sandbox and there's no King's Quest chain of correct play to find the MacGuffin, but would they really hear the words coming out of your mouth? At least it is a step up from FF XIII "hold pressing straight forward to reach the end!" dungeon exploration.

3) As for telling them you use random tables, tell them proudly, and expound how it makes for a better game experience as both GM and players. Explain how it is merely a delegation tool for content generation parameters and that you, the GM, have selected those which makes sense for your setting areas. Explain how it generates this custom content of yours in ways that will surprise even you, making achievements vs. more powerful encounters, or gaining rarer treasures early, that much more precious and meaningful. Explain how these tables free up prep time to create even more content, like new hooks or NPC agendas.

Teach them that the old ways were not unaware of programming and seeding areas, like modern video games. But then explain how these tables have human judgment behind them and can be used or adjusted as needed over time, a level of dynamism and personalization beyond anything they are used to from fixed programs. Play up how tables are a mere tool to enhance the strength of RPGs.

Personally I'm running Rise of the Runelords as a sandbox, or eventually maybe a collection of sandboxes (currently the 'box' is Sandpoint & its Hinterlands, but that box will eventually expand to include Magnimar, and presumably the campaign will move over to the Turtleback Ferry area box if I run Book 3). Works much better than the linear RoTRL campaign I played in. One result is that the published material gets used very slowly, since the PCs are doing lots of other stuff too, but I have it to fall back on for inspiration or even to use as-is.

When I've tried to run Sandbox campaigns I've had similar problems.
One that has come up in my group is the expectation of getting magic stuff like swords and armor early on and then just getting better versions each level or so. To me it sort of lessens the impact of magic items but to most in my group they just want new shiny toys. Its reminiscent of games like diablo. Has that happened in your campaign?

One way I've found to get rid of the "key card mentality" is to make some real minor useless magic items that are interesting. Like a goblet that can cool or warm liquids. no actual game use but fun non the less and it gets the players thinking about uses for other minor magic items.

Also your campaign pitch seems pretty awesome!

To your point #2, I've definitely noticed the change in expectations. I think straight up letting them know their expectations are flawed (e.g. by telling them you're using random tables) might help. I've also found that getting away from bog standard magic items, even if that just means altering descriptions (although tweaking properties, too, is better) helps get away from the stockpiling syndrome, as you're much less likely to have multiples of any one thing.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753403For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'.  "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment."  Their imaginations seem stunted to me.  Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.

Wait until they find something where this is the perfect solution. They'll feel like fucking geniuses, especially if they had to scrape through without "blowing" their illusion dust earlier on.

Their behaviour isn't "wrong", it's just different.

Quote3)  I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?

No, don't spoil the illusion for them if they are perfectly happy with how things are going, just sit back and take the credit (Especially as it's you that's actually doing all the hard work, the tables are just a starting point). It sounds like everyone is enjoying themselves, and that's the most important thing.

Quote from: Opaopajr;7534142) Yes, yes it has. We have a very well trained generation nowadays where casually using expendable items is. just. not. done. Gotta hoard 99 of each potion, just in case of a boss battle. That special potion item? Gotta be a key item, not an actual one-shot reward.

I don't know if you can pass this one off entirely on the young folk. My entire group, myself included, has always been bad about hoarding potions and other expendables. Even way back in the 80's I was hesitant to use them in case I might need them later.

Quote from: Raven;753549I don't know if you can pass this one off entirely on the young folk. My entire group, myself included, has always been bad about hoarding potions and other expendables. Even way back in the 80's I was hesitant to use them in case I might need them later.

Yeah, I've always been a bit that way myself. Even recently, my Earthdawn PC had a magic bow that held jewels that could be added into attacks... kind of like fireballs. I had a box of them but I only recall using a couple of them... and they weren't even that hard to replace.

On the other hand, playing video games like World of Warcraft really helped cement for me what the advantages of TTRPGs are... what I want out of them... what things are better left to video games. WOW also gave me lots of ideas on how to set up a sandbox... because that's largely what it is, except that it doesn't really respond to anything the players do... well, a bit now... with the addition of the 'phasing' thing.

Quote from: CitrusMagic;753422Also your campaign pitch seems pretty awesome!

Thank you!  I've had the darndest time getting feedback on the thing.  Bad self confidence from being told my writing/design stuff sucks, I guess.

Quote from: Simlasa;753555On the other hand, playing video games like World of Warcraft really helped cement for me what the advantages of TTRPGs are... what I want out of them... what things are better left to video games. WOW also gave me lots of ideas on how to set up a sandbox... because that's largely what it is, except that it doesn't really respond to anything the players do... well, a bit now... with the addition of the 'phasing' thing.

That's actually what I meant about the "themepark" part.  Like in WoW, the 'quests' they're not currently doing will remain pretty static.  Unless they take forever to get around to it.  Then I might lurch it forward as a 'look over here' plot device.

So yeah, not all bad influence.  But definitely looking for keyholes where there aren't any.

Another example involved a golem they were having trouble defeating.  They kept looking for the "off switch".  "Maybe if we tell it to stop in Infernal..."

Quote from: mcbobbo;753559Another example involved a golem they were having trouble defeating.  They kept looking for the "off switch".  "Maybe if we tell it to stop in Infernal..."

Isn't that a standard golem thing though? In the old silent movie Der Golem is brought down by a little girl who plucks the star off its chest.

Quote from: mcbobbo;753403So I am running a sort of sandbox sort of themepark summer campaign,  and it's genuinely a bit different for me.  Some things to share...

2) Video games are ruining our youth.  90% serious on that one.  For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'.  "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment."  Their imaginations seem stunted to me.  Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.

Please don't take offence at this, but there's an incredible irony about your complaint about video games, when your Gordon Freeman icon is staring right at your red key card comment!...secondly, I really don't agree with this, it seems like an easy "young fogey" cliche. Look at the huge success of Skyrim as a freeroaming sandbox and how every other big budget computer rpg has starting quoting from it. I think video games have contributed to the recent rise in popularity, visibility and interest in tabletop RPGs.

Quote3)  I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?

I would say no since it dispels any impression of depth you might be able to suggest.

Quote from: Bilharzia;753718Please don't take offence at this, but there's an incredible irony about your complaint about video games, when your Gordon Freeman icon is staring right at your red key card comment!...secondly, I really don't agree with this, it seems like an easy "young fogey" cliche. Look at the huge success of Skyrim as a freeroaming sandbox and how every other big budget computer rpg has starting quoting from it. I think video games have contributed to the recent rise in popularity, visibility and interest in tabletop RPGs.


I would say no since it dispels any impression of depth you might be able to suggest.

No offense taken.  I am very much a digital immigrant.  And actually the key card is a Doom reference that predates my actual group.  I do love Half Life, but I chose Gordon mostly because he looks a lot like me.  It was either him or Egon, but I couldn't find an old-but-not-round-faced pic of Ramus to use...

Yes it could just be my perception, but perceiving it still annoys the crap out of me.

Quote from: Bilharzia;753718Look at the huge success of Skyrim as a freeroaming sandbox and how every other big budget computer rpg has starting quoting from it.

I have to admit that once I had experienced the Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and Fallout 3 my interest has really waned with other games that don't have that level of freedom.

Quote from: mcbobbo;7534031)  This is a whole lot easier than prepping something like Rise of the Runelords.  After initial spin-up, I haven't put more than a few minutes of prep in to the game.  I'm winging everything,  basically playing the world itself as if it were an NPC.  That plus my usual bag of plotshaping tricks and we're going along full blast.  Again, it's just so EASY.

Yes.  This is the true Path of the Lazy GM.  Embrace it.  Let it flow through you.

Quote from: mcbobbo;7534032) Video games are ruining our youth.  90% serious on that one.  For example, when randomly generated treasure included 'dust of illusion' the party treated it as a 'red key card'.  "What does this unlock?" And "better save this for the right moment."  Their imaginations seem stunted to me.  Maybe it was always there and I just never saw it before.

I wouldn't say ruined, but there's definitely a set of expectations from video games that you may want to explicitly explain aren't relevant in your game.

Quote from: mcbobbo;7534033)  I haven't revealed that I am using tables - maybe I should?

Nah.  Let it be GM magic.  A lot of being a good GM is making it seem like things are much more defined than they really are.

As far as #2, I'd say no, the younger players in my games have usually been about the same as the older ones. People squirrel stuff away or don't, irrespective of video games. RPG's and VG's share some similarities, like "level bosses" which probably originated in TTRPG's, so trying to keep it out of the game is largely futile.