Just musing to myself that all my successful long term campaigns have had the following format:
1. PCs start out in a safe and relatively familiar location, eg "You all meet at the Inn"; though it can be a castle or Pathfinder lodge, etc.
2. PCs hear the "call to adventure" - whether the greybeard in the corner with Quest to Save World, or just rumours of treasure
3. PCs go to adventure site, do stuff, then come back.
So, basically the "Hero's Journey".
Now, sometimes - often - the PCs eventually relocate their Home Base, eg they might move to a new Inn, or gain their own Castle. But the safe & familiar starting point seems to be very important for long term play. If I start the game as GM/am started as player with PCs on the run, looking for safety, or crashed on an unfamiliar & dangerous planet/island, it never works out. All player energy goes into establishing safety - creating that safe home base, or reaching a safe place - at which point the game feels 'done'. The energy dissipates.
Anyone else had this experience? Is it just me?
Well, I did have the one player, who, when faced with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy created a king with a castle. You can do that on 250 points. I just smiled and told him that his castle can also be the dungeon and had a retainer let in the monsters by treachery.
Not really had that experience... tbh I don't necessarily think this is a problem. Once the players have emotionally invested a lot in the safe space, having something destroy or otherwise threaten it could surely motivate them (or at least motivate them a lot more than having something threaten some fantasy town they haven't built up investment in).
Quote from: S'mon;1078445Anyone else had this experience? Is it just me?
As a player, I naturally try to build foundations in the game-world. Whether it's working relationships, businesses, investments or even alliances. This inevitably allows me to be OP both in a mechanical and narrative sense but in that good way where it's constructive and gives the GM more stuff to build drama and scenarios around. I did this in the first VTR game I played in years back and though that particular game is a saga in and of itself in how left it went, the long and short of it is that I was on my way to having my PC become a mission-giver while the other PCs did essentially fuck-all.
As a GM, right off the bat my experience is quite different to the vast majority of GMs. What you've described, I've experienced multiple times in different games (OTOMH -- Only War, Promethean, The Void, Mage etc...) . Where my path evolves from this point is when you've experienced your players ultimately start building their own strongholds against each other. The internal politics between the PCs gets real -- my Hunter game was the best (and most notorious example of this) at this. They hadn't even reached Tier Three and they were already only helping each other for mutual gain. And on a side note, that game cemented for me that Hunter is the
most political game of the NWOD series by far. Oh my God, I remember when one of our two Hashashin PCs saw that the heretical Christian prophet PC had two bodyguards in the shadows keeping watch over their leader... the look on his face in real-life when he realised how powerful the PC had become in comparison, ahahaha.
(this has veered somewhat off-topic but fuck it, it's me baby)
As I am, so are my players. I remember once during my last VTR game I GM'd I off-hand joked that some of the players were obviously my childer because of the fact that half my players (4 of 8 at that point) had chosen to go Daeva for their Clan (or changed to Daeva) and it was funny because my first character as a player was a Daeva. We all laughed but then I caught this slow dawning realization on some of their faces seconds later what the reality of that meant... especially given the choices and playstyles of some of those Daeva players. Hahahaha...
EDIT: To the above semi-SOC, in that same first VTR game I played in, I got my PC a new haven (stronghold) by investing a dot of Resource into a downtown goth club as a silent partner + the promise of getting more people to the club on a, I think, successful MNP+PERS roll (because Daeva, obvs). GM was cool with me so was like "go for it". Had an office/apartment in the basement -- big upgrade from the shitty motel room with curtains drawn, sleeping in the bathroom. I put a dot of Security on that Haven immesheately because by that point the other players were OOC plotting to sabotage/kill my char.
I'm using a "home base" of some kind much more these days than I ever did before. Part of the Session Zero is grounding the adventuring team with some shared social history, a town where they all came from, family, a patron, some combination of that.
While some physical structure can be involved, the social stuff is more important than the actual bricks and mortar, for the reasons stated in the OP. They want to leave that area, fo wanderlust, or some other grounded reason. After all, why doesn't the party immediately retire after their first big score - they could sell a couple of minor magic items they found, and live at a reasonable level of comfort and safety for years to come. I agree that starting the party off as needing to find shelter and safety is going to prove challenging sooner or later.
Call me crazy, but I like D&D tropes, and having a "home base" is one of them. Returning to a familiar location is always a nice way to reset and make the setting feel like a real place with a true sense of "home."
Years ago I had a strange sort of epiphany, that for all I tend to play 'Gun Bunnies' and other combat mongers in games, if I were to pick an actual style of play (as a player), the best way to describe it would be to use the Architect Nature from the old White Wolf.
My only experience with D&D 4e saw my character attempting to construct a wooden picket camp in the woods outside of the 'Point of Light' village we were protecting local goblin tribes, effectively expanding the defensive perimeter, allowing us to forge deeper into Goblin Territory instead of restricting ourselves to short patrols from the village itself. Unfortunately we ran smack dab into the default 4e playstyle, which is based on a very 'board game' style encounter system and the group collectively decided that it wasn't worth the effort to force the system to play more like 3.5, so we dropped it after one session.
In most games I've participated in as a player I am 'incidentally' disruptive because I always begin looking for ways to make my own mark on the setting, my own goals beyond simply 'kill monsters, collect loot', and I always have, from buying the local tavern in WHFRP, when the GM stranded us in some small town, to organizing a grass-roots guerilla army to fight the Clans on an occupied world in Mechwarrior, to the above story from 4e.
I think giving players the opportunity to interact with the setting in their own way, the freedom, is more important. Having an established base is sort of an accidental 'permission' to get involved in the local, if imaginary, community, to get invested in the NPCs, and to form goals beyond simply 'stab monsters in face, get gold'. Its... lets call it the symptom rather than the cause of 'good game play', if you will.
My players have tended to go away from the idea of a home base--especially in fantasy games--or at best they want a mobile home base (like a starship in a sci-fi or space opera setting). In Shadowrun, my players never wanted to stay in a "home Sprawl" but wanted to move from city to city as the jobs occurred. The only time they really went with a home base was in a super hero game, but that's because they went with the "super heroes are reactive" bit quite hard.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1078473(this has veered somewhat off-topic but fuck it, it's me baby)
Yeah, you do you. :D
Quote from: HappyDaze;1078479The only time they really went with a home base was in a super hero game, but that's because they went with the "super heroes are reactive" bit quite hard.
I noticed my 6-year, 30-level 4e campaign was VERY like a comic book superhero serial! It was even named Loudwater after the starter town home base - eventually the PCs moved to a manor house a bit north of town.
PCs spending their first few levels in a town with several adventure locations nearby, building up relationships with the NPCs and returning to the home between adventures, has to be one of the most common game modes in D&D. Which is why is't so weird that WotC and others haven't published more of them. You'd think a detailed town, a dozen or so nearby lairs, and a couple small dungeons in the region would be a staple of adventure and setting publishing. Instead we get much more high-level setting material - whole continents or kingdoms, megadungeons, and world-spanning adventure paths.
Quote from: S'mon;1078445Anyone else had this experience? Is it just me?
I have not had that experience. The main problem that I have experienced was not being able to stay in the same place long enough to build up a home base because the adventure keeps moving.
Quote from: Shasarak;1078495I have not had that experience. The main problem that I have experienced was not being able to stay in the same place long enough to build up a home base because the adventure keeps moving.
Very much this, especially in games like Star Wars but even in several fantasy games. My players are about as likely to settle down as a young Conan.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1078502Very much this, especially in games like Star Wars but even in several fantasy games. My players are about as likely to settle down as a young Conan.
One good thing about Sci Fi games is that you can use your Ship as a home base (like the Millennium Falcon).
I've had the home base more often than not. When I haven't, it's usually been an episodic, traveling game, where the premise was that the characters were rootless. Kind of a "Man with no name" Eastwood vibe. When the players got tired of the episodic nature and the characters settled down marked the beginning of the end of the campaign.
Curiously, one of my current campaigns is a sandbox without a home base yet. The characters went through a portal at the call of deity, but missed their target location. So they've had about 20 hours of play out in the wilderness. They are trying to find a home base, which is effectively the campaign thus far.
In my other current campaign, it was running episodic until the players found an abandoned keep, and suddenly decided they wanted to secure the area. Completely changed the focus of the campaign.
So I would have answered this question somewhat differently up until a couple of years ago.
Quote from: Shasarak;1078507One good thing about Sci Fi games is that you can use your Ship as a home base (like the Millennium Falcon).
I actually hate that. It's like living out of a motorhome. It's not a home base; it's just a vehicle that has racks to sleep in. All of the things that a home base offers (mainly ties to the game world through NPCs and organizations) tend to be absent with the space vagabonds that live out of their ship.
Regarding the OP, yeah, having a home base is important for most of my long-term campaigns - and many of my short ones.
Champions was among my earliest role-playing, so I've always been pretty comfortable with the PCs having a home city and roots. I've always been fond of the setup of Ars Magica, with a home covenant.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1078512I actually hate that. It's like living out of a motorhome. It's not a home base; it's just a vehicle that has racks to sleep in. All of the things that a home base offers (mainly ties to the game world through NPCs and organizations) tend to be absent with the space vagabonds that live out of their ship.
I think there are some uses for living out of a ship, so I wouldn't say I hate it. But in general I agree that living out of a motorhome seems like a thin excuse for a life, and more like a plot device for adventures.
I love four methods.
1: The traditional "start town" which can be a campaign all on its own as the PCs range out and then head back to a place they feel secure. The other being the "Big City" which can be a campaign all on its own without the PCs ever leaving the city.
2: The "housing upgrade" style which usually sees the PCs relocating as their lifestyles improve. This could be something like moving from a small village, to a large town, to a city, to a capitol. The PCs stay for an extended period. But eventually they want to move to better abodes. Or DIY their own.
3: The "traveler" style where the PCs are constantly on the move and their homes are inns and tents on the road that leads ever on. It could be that the PCs are looking for a start town and never find it. Or by necessity are constantly on the move. This was pretty much how all PCs existed in Dragon Storm. Ever on the move.
4: And my personal favourite. The "Mobile Base". Most often in the form of a caravan home or covered wagon or equivalents. This is 75% of the time how my PCs live and about the first thing they set out to acquire. Your base is ever with you. Just don't forget where you parked it.
Quote from: jhkim;1078523I think there are some uses for living out of a ship, so I wouldn't say I hate it. But in general I agree that living out of a motorhome seems like a thin excuse for a life, and more like a plot device for adventures.
Poor old Jack Reacher does not even have a motor home, just a toothbrush and an expired passport. He does seem to have a lot of adventures though.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1078512I actually hate that. It's like living out of a motorhome. It's not a home base; it's just a vehicle that has racks to sleep in. All of the things that a home base offers (mainly ties to the game world through NPCs and organizations) tend to be absent with the space vagabonds that live out of their ship.
A big ship like the
Enterprise has NPCs and 1+ organisations, though - does that work?
I've never actually run a
Star Trek type campaign, but I would like to do so someday.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1078512I actually hate that. It's like living out of a motorhome. It's not a home base; it's just a vehicle that has racks to sleep in. All of the things that a home base offers (mainly ties to the game world through NPCs and organizations) tend to be absent with the space vagabonds that live out of their ship.
I don't know that's necessarily true. Firefly's
Serenity certainly felt like a home, and the gang didn't lack for social links. But the point is well-made, I think the GM should spend some session zero time developing that stuff.
Quote from: S'mon;1078546A big ship like the Enterprise has NPCs and 1+ organisations, though - does that work?
I've never actually run a Star Trek type campaign, but I would like to do so someday.
I don't mind that. To me it's not the same as wandering around sleeping in your car with no real ties to anyone or anyplace.
Quote from: S'mon;1078445Just musing to myself that all my successful long term campaigns have had the following format:
1. PCs start out in a safe and relatively familiar location, eg "You all meet at the Inn"; though it can be a castle or Pathfinder lodge, etc.
2. PCs hear the "call to adventure" - whether the greybeard in the corner with Quest to Save World, or just rumours of treasure
3. PCs go to adventure site, do stuff, then come back.
So, basically the "Hero's Journey".
Now, sometimes - often - the PCs eventually relocate their Home Base, eg they might move to a new Inn, or gain their own Castle. But the safe & familiar starting point seems to be very important for long term play. If I start the game as GM/am started as player with PCs on the run, looking for safety, or crashed on an unfamiliar & dangerous planet/island, it never works out. All player energy goes into establishing safety - creating that safe home base, or reaching a safe place - at which point the game feels 'done'. The energy dissipates.
Anyone else had this experience? Is it just me?
Yes, sure, that's kind of assumed in the stereotypical D&D campaign: you start out in the little town on the borderland, later on you are based in some big fantasy city, and later still you end up making your own stronghold.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1079603Yes, sure, that's kind of assumed in the stereotypical D&D campaign: you start out in the little town on the borderland, later on you are based in some big fantasy city, and later still you end up making your own stronghold.
Yes - my point is that this setup works, whereas other starting setups such as Fleeing the Zombie Apocalypse (or Fleeing the Armies of the Dark Lord) don't seem to work for long term play. It feels as if to run a long term Zombie Apocalypse game, I'd need to start the game where the films end - with the PCs in a reasonably safe & secure long term home base.
Quote from: S'mon;1079614Yes - my point is that this setup works, whereas other starting setups such as Fleeing the Zombie Apocalypse (or Fleeing the Armies of the Dark Lord) don't seem to work for long term play. It feels as if to run a long term Zombie Apocalypse game, I'd need to start the game where the films end - with the PCs in a reasonably safe & secure long term home base.
Well, seeing as thematically most Zombie Movies and stories are all about Man's Inhumanity to Man, with the Zombies being a vaguely threatening environmental condition rather than a true antagonist, its probably for the best that you start your zombie game AFTER the movies. Otherwise you're just asking for your players to murder each other (yes, players) over who gets to use the can opener.
Its for the best really.
Quote from: S'mon;1079614Yes - my point is that this setup works, whereas other starting setups such as Fleeing the Zombie Apocalypse (or Fleeing the Armies of the Dark Lord) don't seem to work for long term play. It feels as if to run a long term Zombie Apocalypse game, I'd need to start the game where the films end - with the PCs in a reasonably safe & secure long term home base.
I ran a year-long fantasy post-apocalyptic campaign (with a dragon apocalypse instead of a zombie apocalypse). In it, the players started out fleeing - and they eventually found a home base, but only after a number of adventures. On the other hand, they had a group of NPCs with them from the beginning - their little mobile community of survivors.
It was patterned like the Walking Dead in a sense - wandering from spot to spot, protecting their charges, and only finding a safe place after a struggle. (The equivalent of the prison in The Walking Dead.) I thought it worked OK, though I might still prefer a real home base from the start for other campaigns.
Quote from: jhkim;1079692I ran a year-long fantasy post-apocalyptic campaign (with a dragon apocalypse instead of a zombie apocalypse). In it, the players started out fleeing - and they eventually found a home base, but only after a number of adventures. On the other hand, they had a group of NPCs with them from the beginning - their little mobile community of survivors.
It was patterned like the Walking Dead in a sense - wandering from spot to spot, protecting their charges, and only finding a safe place after a struggle. (The equivalent of the prison in The Walking Dead.) I thought it worked OK, though I might still prefer a real home base from the start for other campaigns.
Thanks Kim, that's very interesting!
So, this indicates that with a bunch of NPCs along, the PCs could have their own mobile 'home base' with them - a bit like the Starship Enterprise in Star Trek. I could see that greatly mitigating the issue. Still, my expectation would be that the game's energy would tend to dissipate once a genuinely safe long term base is established. But still, I very much like the idea of the PCs shepherding - or being part of - a mobile survivor community, rather than being on their own & looking for such a community to join. This definitely gives me food for thought!
Quote from: S'mon;1079614Yes - my point is that this setup works, whereas other starting setups such as Fleeing the Zombie Apocalypse (or Fleeing the Armies of the Dark Lord) don't seem to work for long term play. It feels as if to run a long term Zombie Apocalypse game, I'd need to start the game where the films end - with the PCs in a reasonably safe & secure long term home base.
Worked for Dragon Storm for like 20 years. The PCs had to stay constantly on the move and what few safe places there were they couldnt linger long else they might be discovered. Get a breather, restock, train, then off again trying to stay one step ahead of the Necros else you end up their next power charge.
Quote from: S'mon;1079748Thanks Kim, that's very interesting!
So, this indicates that with a bunch of NPCs along, the PCs could have their own mobile 'home base' with them - a bit like the Starship Enterprise in Star Trek. I could see that greatly mitigating the issue. Still, my expectation would be that the game's energy would tend to dissipate once a genuinely safe long term base is established. But still, I very much like the idea of the PCs shepherding - or being part of - a mobile survivor community, rather than being on their own & looking for such a community to join. This definitely gives me food for thought!
I think I've mentioned the campaign before. It was using D&D5 - with the idea that a horde of dragons suddenly appeared to ravage the surface of world. Civilization fell, and the survivors looked for places underground to go live. So you have adventurers going into dungeons as the primary action, but they are looking for resources and a place to live, rather than gold. They had a group of 20 to 30 other survivors with them that they were looking out for.
When I introduced a safe area, it was physically mostly safe, but still had tensions. They had made it down into the Underdark, and encountered a larger group of survivors - but this was lead by an ambitious halfling general who wanted to take a stand and carve out a piece of the Underdark for themselves. They had leveled up a bunch, so now they were the top tier in a larger setting - more of a small town of a few hundred people. They still had their little group that looked to them, but now there were equal-level rivals to them with tensions between them.
I have a soft spot for urban adventuring, so wherever my players start out, they usually end up setting up digs in the campaign world's Lankhmar equivalent and making forays into other regions of the world from there.
I've rarely had a home base in campaigns. Mine are usually very mobile. The big exception is super hero games because the threats come to them and they are the defenders of the locale. Those always have a home base.
Years ago, I did a Chaos Earth campaign where the whole premise is the PCs were the only ones in the locale with MDC weapons and training. AKA, they were all that stood between Man and Monster. They had to protect the town and explore the greater area for supplies, meanwhile trying to deal with town drama and each other. The results were mixed and I'd do things differently next time.
My 0e drop-in game has a home base, the City of Rings, but since its a drop-in game, the players mostly show up to just adventure with the pregens and don't do much involving getting tied into the town. I suspect that would be different in a home game with a consistent crew.
I see it as tangential to my four-part breakdown of horror (safety, secrets, suspense, surprise) -- a function of maintaining (for lack of a better term right now. feel free to offer a new one,) "narrative momentum." No safety, no cool down from stress, adrenal fatigue sets in, no longevity of play. Basically it's a function of organisms dealing with stress -- they need a baseline normal to thrive. They need rest. And Secrets, Suspense, & Surprise all suck as a baseline normal, lack of rest eroding coherency and thus attachment. (You can never "figure the world out" enough to make it livable.)
Quote from: Opaopajr;1079951I see it as tangential to my four-part breakdown of horror (safety, secrets, suspense, surprise) -- a function of maintaining (for lack of a better term right now. feel free to offer a new one,) "narrative momentum." No safety, no cool down from stress, adrenal fatigue sets in, no longevity of play. Basically it's a function of organisms dealing with stress -- they need a baseline normal to thrive. They need rest.
Yes, that's my experience.
Quote from: S'mon;1079956Yes, that's my experience.
Greetings!
I agree, S'mon. I always have various kinds of "Home Bases" for the player characters. In one campaign, for example, the player characters had a floating, flying island. This island is a mountainous island, about 12 miles long and 10 miles wide, covered in dense pine trees, a small lake, and a river which cascades into the lake from the mountain slopes above. Situated on the island amongst the mountainous slopes, shrouded in dense fog, is an enchanted castle, crafted of shimmering crystal, glass, and white granite. At dawn, the sunlight gleams amongst the castle towers like glittering fire.
Magic animals live amongst the fog-shrouded woods, as well as enchanted fish which live in the beautiful lake. The enchanted castle, and the magical, flying island is a very wondrous and mystical place, and the players protect the island with a fanatical zeal.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK