Yeah but these are all singular examples of Necromancy (of the D&D variety) in use. The notion that one IS a practicing Necromancer in context with what that generally entails regardless of culture is where things get tricky.

That said - I don't play with Alignment, and I don't consider animating inanimate bodies/skeletons to be "evil" - as much as it's garish and bad manners under best circumstances.

This kicked off an interesting discussion with my group this past weekend. I asked them if having a "neighborhood Necromancer" who seemed "cool" was okay for them? They all replied as long as he wasn't doing human-sacrifice and other shit like that, sure.

So I said - what if he needed yardwork done and one day you see this pack of skeletons pulling weeds out of his garden and trimming his hedges? They kinda nervously considered it - then said "well they're just animated skeletons. As long as it didn't interfere with the D&D Cosmological afterlife for those skeletons former owners - it was not evil. They're just inanimate objects, a shell not the spirit of the person." So I validated - yep, it was just skeletons. And they reiterated - it's "all good".

So then I said - What if you came over and saw he had a bunch of zombies digging a well. And you realized one zombie was your wife who died of the pox last season, and the other was your dad? He animated them from the local village graveyard, and cheerfully tells you he'll put them back, but since he used them the PC will have free access to the well as payment.

Through gritted teeth the player said... "Welll.... my wife? Dude... bad form. Not evil... but I might give him a black eye."

LOL

It might be interesting to have a nation whose social contract with its citizens that if you die, your body is given to the government. Their bones are removed and put into a massive pile and mixed up. So skeletons are animated into conglomerate structures that do the work of the kingdom. So that way it makes them anonymous and for the benefit of everyone. Would be interesting to design for.

Quote from: tenbones;793167It might be interesting to have a nation whose social contract with its citizens that if you die, your body is given to the government. Their bones are removed and put into a massive pile and mixed up. So skeletons are animated into conglomerate structures that do the work of the kingdom. So that way it makes them anonymous and for the benefit of everyone. Would be interesting to design for.

Indeed, especially as I can see how such economic can go wrong, causing a raise of a Caesar - like figure, campaigning on the idea of GIVE JOBS BACK TO THE LIVING!

Yep, pretty much how necromancy functions socially in my own RPG.


Free labour? Ok long as it isnt "alive".

Animated a family member or friend? Probably not ok even if its just an automita. In general necromancers are expected to stay out of family graveyards and stick public ones where the criminals tend to get planted.

Yanked someones ghost out of the afterlife and glued it back on their corpse as a slave? Not ok. (unless its a criminal) Likely to get Deaths unwanted attention which means some adventurers are immenent on your doorstep. Possibly lead by a necromancer charged with putting you down ASAP.

Called it up with permission from the spirit? Usually ok. Especially if its temporary.

One of the side effects of necromantic powers is that some nations clean up their battlefields afterwards to prevent instant armies sprouting. Other nations bury the dead on the spot so they can do exactly this later.

Necromancy is about the only means permissible to actually communicate with the dead. Which entails an etherial trip to the far realm. And the only way to actually raise someone back to life. Which entailed explaining to Death why this person should be sent back. Sometimes the dead didnt want to. Sometimes Death would agree. But you had to go out and put down some nut gluing ghosts back onto their corpses against the spirits will. Which is enchantment magic by the way. Which was the bemusing part. Most of the Evil Necromancers were really enchanters.

Quote from: tenbones;793167It might be interesting to have a nation whose social contract with its citizens that if you die, your body is given to the government. Their bones are removed and put into a massive pile and mixed up. So skeletons are animated into conglomerate structures that do the work of the kingdom. So that way it makes them anonymous and for the benefit of everyone. Would be interesting to design for.

Besides, look -- demonstrably, our culture puts up with all manner of nasty, cruel shit For The Good Of All ... or at least, for goals a tipping point of the populace has been talked into agreeing are For The Good Of All.

So what happens when the admiral says, "Look.  We need our war galleys manned in order to preserve our national freedom.  Now we can either squeeze you for the taxes to keep 50 galleys in commission, because they all have to be packed with water and food for the rowers, and we have to use the press and kidnap your fathers, sons and brothers to man those oar decks -- because let's be realistic, no one's volunteering to be an oar slave.  Or we can use skeleton rowers, who never revolt, never get tired, never need provisions and DON'T require that we grab a thousand or so citizens, who when they die off means we need to grab a thousand more.  With saving space for provisions, the galleys will have a lot more range, and the holds can be smaller, so the ships can be smaller and less costly.  Your call."

So what happens when the chief minister says, "Look.  The Archprelate of Mitra preaches that slavery is evil, and I don't disagree -- I know most of you don't either.  But few free men will work as field hands on the Orc Marches -- where most of our prime farmland is -- and no one willingly works in the Jet Mines, where the death rate is heavy.  Zombies will, though, and we can have our wheat and marble, from tireless, willing workers.  I do not know about you, but I rather like being able to eat behind four walls.  Do you?  And look -- not a living person enslaved to do it."

Yeah ! This is turning into a goldmine of possibility.

When the DMG lands I hope there's rules for creating constructs. It might be interesting to create a "Mecropolis" a city where much of the labor is handled by undead. I think it would be fun to make it seem tasteful, even fashionable among the elite to have various styles of constructs made of animated skeletal-engineering.

Maybe different kinds of skeletons have different possible properties? Could lead to some interesting moral hazards for those trying to keep Necromancy "not evil"... especially when money is involved.

"Giant bones are very useful for X" - the local giant tribe starts getting poached. Or whatever. Elf bones! Hmmmm... Dwarves too...

There is a kind of precedent for 'good necromancy'.  Mircea Eliade argued that the principle role of the tribal shaman was as a psychopomp, a link between the living and the spirits of the dead.
Any culture that venerates ancestral spirits might theoretically have 'good' necromancers as well as bad ones, it would be a question of whether they respect the dead rather than defile them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;793221There is a kind of precedent for 'good necromancy'.  Mircea Eliade argued that the principle role of the tribal shaman was as a psychopomp, a link between the living and the spirits of the dead.
Any culture that venerates ancestral spirits might theoretically have 'good' necromancers as well as bad ones, it would be a question of whether they respect the dead rather than defile them.

Agreed.

As far as fantasy goes, I'm surprised that no one has brought up the most prominent example of "good" necromancy - Aragorn and Dunharrow. We might not call Aragorn a necromancer, but he summoned an army of undead to defeat his enemies, which I would say makes him one.

I think the example of Aragorn shows a decent model of what good necromancy could be like. It is still scary and not to be taken lightly, but is something to turn to in times of need. A regular good necromancer would treat the dead with respect, but still might goad them and/or negotiate hard with them to get what he wants.

Repeating myself, good necromancers:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=791995&postcount=53

Quote from: jhkim;793226Agreed.

As far as fantasy goes, I'm surprised that no one has brought up the most prominent example of "good" necromancy - Aragorn and Dunharrow. We might not call Aragorn a necromancer, but he summoned an army of undead to defeat his enemies, which I would say makes him one.

I think the example of Aragorn shows a decent model of what good necromancy could be like. It is still scary and not to be taken lightly, but is something to turn to in times of need. A regular good necromancer would treat the dead with respect, but still might goad them and/or negotiate hard with them to get what he wants.

Hmm, good call. Although that was linked to their broken oath rather than summoning them up wholesale.

There's a blurry edge in magical traditions of just what 'summoning' entails.

There's a certain degree to which most 'magic' is simply impressing the spirits enough to bother treating you seriously and listen to what you say.

Obviously, there are other styles, too, but what Aragorn does is quite a lot like 'binding spirits' in many variations.

Quote from: Will;793253There's a blurry edge in magical traditions of just what 'summoning' entails.

There's a certain degree to which most 'magic' is simply impressing the spirits enough to bother treating you seriously and listen to what you say.

Obviously, there are other styles, too, but what Aragorn does is quite a lot like 'binding spirits' in many variations.

Thought he just said "Hey. You guys screwed up long ago. Want to make up for it now?" and when asked afterwards if their debt was paid he said "sure" rather than using that debt as a chain?

Quote from: RPGPundit;793221Any culture that venerates ancestral spirits might theoretically have 'good' necromancers as well as bad ones, it would be a question of whether they respect the dead rather than defile them.

(nods)

There's a serious disconnect in the elven empire in my gameworld.  The Ilkorendi hate necromancy.  Hate hate hate it.  Serious cultural down on it, and it doesn't help that they're just a few weeks' march away from the Giant Imperialistic Eeeeevil Necromantic-Loving Human Empire.

Only the elven empire is surrounded by haunted sites and haunted lands (effectively, for those of you familiar with Glorantha, they've got Dorastor just over the border to the south and the west), and you'd think they'd have some tradition of spirit magic, if only to combat all those haunts.

Nope.  The husband of one of the PCs is the most powerful "necromancer" the elves have (i.e., not all that great a one), and he's been dragooned into heading up a schola for the study of spirit magics.  Plenty of cultural resistance.

Quote from: Omega;793271Thought he just said "Hey. You guys screwed up long ago. Want to make up for it now?" and when asked afterwards if their debt was paid he said "sure" rather than using that debt as a chain?

Well, there's at least one spin on most summoning as nothing more than that -- knowing how to get spirits' attention, and knowing what is likely to entice them to help you.

And note that Aragorn isn't just some schlub wandering around. His lineage, his special bloodline, and the sword he was carrying, all had cachet with those dead.

Again, there are parallels to be made with various forms of necromancy.

Consider the Odyssey, where Odysseus calls on the spirits of the dead using a sacrifice of a black lamb and an offering of blood.

Is this a spell? Is this simply a thing you do that draws the attention of the dead? Is there a difference?

Depends on how you design things.

Alot of games and especially books have spontaneously created undead too. Sometimes lots and lots of them. Mother Nature is obviously a necromancer!

Quote from: Omega;793271Thought he just said "Hey. You guys screwed up long ago. Want to make up for it now?" and when asked afterwards if their debt was paid he said "sure"  

Magic!