Quote from: One Horse Town;794041Why on earth are people getting so heated?

Oh it started with people who don't believe what I believe or play the way I play, are wrong. Which, when faced by the failure of most people to agree with the poster, led to indirect name calling, followed by increasingly more direct name calling. Season with the typical Internet poster's inability to read normal English sentences and understand any sort of ambiguity or nuance. Which then led to upping the ante with more name calling resulting in reactive name calling. Mixed in a few playground taunts and swearing and you have the last 8 pages or so.

Pretty much the usual song and dance.

Quote from: dragoner;794027Imagine a milieu where there are no souls and magic is only believed in by the delusional or ignorant; that's what I play for the most time. It's no more narrow, sci-fi is way more expansive than fantasy, there are rules for building spacecraft and generating star systems, etc..

Twaddle. Its early in the morning here, but I'm confident that if I say that is the stupidest thing Ive heard today that time wont disprove me.

QuotePersonally, imagining where people's souls are trapped here sounds terrible, I'd rather not. Then this plane of existence becomes hell, or purgatory at least.

Or heaven. Or shamballalla. Its unfortunate your imagination is limited to semi-Catholic theology, but I guess that's your cross to bear.

Ba-dump-bump!

QuoteWhat I find interesting is the people seem to be object to the ideas of evil overall;

No, just your right or capacity to define it absolutely.

Quoteimo that's the moral relativism I mention in my first post. I general don't play with alignment, and when I do, it's more of a guide as to personal motivation. Evil exists; I have seen it in the real world, there is no misunderstanding there. If this is the hill I have set my flag upon, so be it. It may sound absolutist, but at least you know where I stand.

Moral relativism is a fact of life I'm afraid. No matter how much youu want your own views to be correct, every person has their own ideas about what constitutes as evil, or if absolute evil exists. Personally, I consider willful ignorance one form of it.

It's wild when someone's conservative theology makes them intolerant of fictional stuff. Huh.

As for moral relativism, that's blinkered horse-shit. We've extensively outlined cases where systems will flat-out make things evil (like 3e Animate Dead. It's defined pretty much as an evil thing, I'm fairly sure).

I have no problem with fantasy stuff that's Evil or Good.

I also have no problem with more nuance. It's not relativism to suggest that maybe God(s) don't want easy answers, they want you to actually have to try to resist evil and use your brain to figure out moral quandries.

Personally, I like paladins in D&D because of the moral questions they face. Do I have faith in Law and honor my pledge to my liege, even if it seems he might be up to something? What obligations do I have to serve vs. investigate what he's doing?
If slavery is legal in this kingdom, what issues do I face?
How do I handle when Law and Good compel me in different directions?

I find that conflict fascinating.

I hate paladins because figuring out the practical application of "sense evil" makes my brain hurt.

Is it a magic asshole detector or does it detect specific motivations against the paladin themselves? If a paladin walks down a crowded street in Lankhmar, does thier head explode? If someone is doing something evil buut not thinking about something evil, can the paladin detect it? Or vice-versa?

I dont think it was a very well-thouught-out power. At least not without contradicting flat-out other things written about Alignment. In other words, it only makes sense if alignment is absolute or inherent, but every edition of D&D Ive read says thats not what alignment is. Except Planescape, where alignments are places.

Well, it's not so bad if you go by 3e DMG that ~1/3 of the population is evil. Of course, it ends up useless when you want it and annoying when you don't.

Personally, one common mod I do is that Sense Evil only works with stuff with Evil tag (IE: Supernaturally evil)

Quote from: TristramEvans;794073I hate paladins because figuring out the practical application of "sense evil" makes my brain hurt.

Is it a magic asshole detector or does it detect specific motivations against the paladin themselves? If a paladin walks down a crowded street in Lankhmar, does thier head explode? If someone is doing something evil buut not thinking about something evil, can the paladin detect it? Or vice-versa?

I dont think it was a very well-thouught-out power. At least not without contradicting flat-out other things written about Alignment. In other words, it only makes sense if alignment is absolute or inherent, but every edition of D&D Ive read says thats not what alignment is. Except Planescape, where alignments are places.

Paladin's "sense evil" in 2e is far more stringent than what you are talking about. Read up on it again, you may like what you find.

Quote from: Old One Eye;794051I promise not to call you names.  I would be dissappointed in my own level of maturity were I to stoop to such.

Thanks, I'm just sick of it all at this point.

Quote from: Opaopajr;794090Paladin's "sense evil" in 2e is far more stringent than what you are talking about. Read up on it again, you may like what you find.

I juust reread what the 2e DMG had to say on the matter. Two paragraphs. The second one contradicted the first: Detect Evil only works on intentions; some people are so evil that it clings to them. Bah, suspension of disbelief out the window. Alignment was always the most disposable aspect of D&D IMO.

This will be lengthy, but it was a refreshing thing when I came back to the game after so many years. As a player I didn't like how paladin detection was being used. Now as a DM, I can see that many of my old DMs didn't read up thoroughly on how this stuff is meant to work

2e PHB
A paladin can detect the presence of evil intent up to 60' away by concentrating on locating evil in a particular direction. He can do this as often as desired, but each attempt takes one round. This ability detects evil monsters and characters.
(AD&D 2e PHB, p. 27.)

So detecting intent by concentrating on a direction. But about alignment? Detects evil monsters and evil characters... ok, so is it as the spell, or at least related to it?

2e DMG
Detecting Alignment

Sometimes characters try to use spells or magical items to learn the alignment of a player character or NPC. This is highly insulting, if not hostile, action. [...]

Asking
[...]
Even if a character answers truthfully, there is no way for him to know if he is right, short of the loss of class abilities (as in the case of paladins). [PCs] can only say what they think their alignment is. Once they have chosen their alignment, the DM is the only person in the game who knows where it currently stands. A chaotic good ranger may be on the verge of changing alignment — one more cold-blooded deed and over the edge he goes, but he doesn't know that. He still thinks he is chaotic good through and through.

So it is something in general that is just. not. done. Continuing the subsection...

Class Abilities
Some characters — the paladin, in particular — possess a limited ability to detect alignments, particularly good and evil. Even this power has more limitations that the player is likely to consider. The ability to detect evil is really only useful to spot characters or creatures with evil intentions or those who are so thoroughly corrupted that they are evil to the core, not the evil aspect of an alignment.
Just because a fighter is chaotic evil doesn't mean he can be detected as a source of evil while he is having a drink at the tavern. He may have no particularly evil intentions at that moment. At the other end of the spectrum, a powerful, evil cleric may have committed so many foul and hideous deeds that the aura of evil hangs inescapably over him.
(AD&D 2e DMG, pg. 27-28.)

So, is there any definition of such a powerfully evil character? One who must also be in the middle of evil intent as well? Remember, the paladin ability checks only intent, so to detect the "hanging aura" that intent must trigger first. Well, luckily PHB has that in its spell section.

Detect Evil
[Wizard & Cleric spell]
This spell discovers emanations of evil, or of good in the case of the reverse spell, from any creature, object, or area. Character alignment, however, is revealed only under unusual circumstances (wizard ver. [... is not revealed under most circumstances]): characters who are strongly aligned, who do not stray from their faith, and who are of at least 9th level might radiate good or evil if intent upon appropriate actions. Powerful monsters, such as rakshasas or ki-rin, send forth emanations of evil or good, even if polymorphed. Aligned undead radiate evil, for it is this power and negative force that enable them to continue existing. An evilly cursed object or unholy water radiates evil, but a hidden trap or an unintelligent viper does not. [...]
(AD&D PHB, pg. 140, or pg. 199.)

First off, aligned undead supposes the idea of unaligned undead. And it further states that it is the animating energy (power and negative force) that is detected, not necessarily what is the undead creature's actual alignment. That's some delicious contradictions to play with; a good aligned undead would be detected as evil just by sheer dint of its animus. You could end up killing a good creature fighting against its animus.

Second, there it is, the definition of such a character: strongly aligned, doesn't stray from faith, 9th level plus, and only just a maybe if it is the middle of such appropriately aligned intent. So a name-level evil cleric taking a moment to visit his flock and hand out treats to the faithful is still undetectable. He must be in the middle of an evil plot and action.

The wizard or cleric spells alignment checks from subject front (creature, object, area), to motive back (intent, and only of strongly aligned, no faith stray, 9th lvl plus characters). Paladins alignment check from motive front (intent, and only of strongly aligned, no faith stray, 9th lvl plus character), to subject back (creatures only). Paladins further can only do this for evil, so even still weaker than a 1st lv cleric spell or 2nd lvl wizard spell.

In both the subject, intent, and power level must all align to reveal character alignment. That is crazy hard to get that to trigger by happenstance, let alone rely on it; it's just easier to listen around for their reputation at that point. Either that or you "luck out" and are now in the presence of epic evil/good and should probably be cautious and call for back-up.

It is just nowhere near as strong as people have been claiming, the PHB & DMG itself says so. Now you may have been playing with DMs who read it otherwise, and that'd OK for their games. But it is not the rules 'as written' or 'as intended'. You can find a lot of sloppy readings ending up as the result of frustrating play. It was in my case, until I took the time to read those books cover to cover.

Hope that helps!

Quote from: Opaopajr;794214detect the presence of evil intent

Incidentally that's how detect evil works in BECMI/RC and how I use it in every D&D game I've ever ran. Not a fan of know alignment but the idea that the target of the spell can sense his mind being probed is a good one.

Everyone seems to hate alignment, but it's still there.  Really, I've never met anyone who thinks that alignment is a good thing.

It short-circuits actual roleplaying or mysteries; no investigating circumstances or talking to anyone, just cast a spell and decide who's bad, and we can get on with rolling initiative.

It encourages players to be evil or chaotic so that they are free to do whatever they want.

It encourages playing paladins as stupid and gullible so that their class limitations can be bypassed (lead the paladin away while the rest of the party does something evil).

All of the benefits can be realized without formal rules, and/or with alternate systems like reputation and law enforcement.

Oh, and of course you can have a good Necromancer; that's just a tenth level Magic-User (see volume 1, Men & Magic).

When I was DMing in OD&D (with supplements), the PCs were approached by villagers concerned about an evil necromancer.  I was prepared for "how do you know he's evil?" and "how do you know he's doing necromancy?" but the players were already deep in strategizing over the likely spells of a 10th level magic-user and how to deal with each before the villagers had even finished promising at least one cow to each player character if they could protect the village.

Quote from: rawma;794240It encourages playing paladins as stupid and gullible so that their class limitations can be bypassed (lead the paladin away while the rest of the party does something evil).

As I don't play Roleplaying games with people incapable of Roleplaying, surprisingly, this was never an issue for me.  Obviously, your mileage varies. :idunno:

Quote from: rawma;794240Everyone seems to hate alignment, but it's still there.  Really, I've never met anyone who thinks that alignment is a good thing.

It short-circuits actual roleplaying or mysteries; no investigating circumstances or talking to anyone, just cast a spell and decide who's bad, and we can get on with rolling initiative.

It encourages players to be evil or chaotic so that they are free to do whatever they want.

It encourages playing paladins as stupid and gullible so that their class limitations can be bypassed (lead the paladin away while the rest of the party does something evil).

All of the benefits can be realized without formal rules, and/or with alternate systems like reputation and law enforcement.

I openly love alignment. Said so repeatedly over the years here. I even love alignment languages.


And again, within my post of quotations you can see that just merely asking, let alone casting a spell for it, is considered the height of insulting behavior. It shifts everyone in the immediately vicinity to hostile because it is just. not. done.

Further, if you read my post of quotes, you'll note even the spells don't work how you say it does. It is excruciatingly rare to have everything come together to reveal only half of someone's alignment. I'm guessing you didn't really read those books or my post at this point.


(I will openly concede that 3e and 4e could have fucked everything up again, because, well, there's a pattern there. Don't own those books because I got frustrated with them faster than I could buy them, for many other reasons.)

I actually like alignments and 3e helped me find peace with them... though 3e's specific implementation bugged me (I like alignment harder to discern).

I have no problem imagining a world with absolute morality, even if I don't see the real world quite that way.