Quote from: SHARK;1077544Greetings!

I have another book in my library, 1421: The Year China Discovered America, By Gavin Menzies, where the historian Menzies discusses his research and findings, detailing how a vast Chinese Fleet sailed along the western shores of North and South America. This huge fleet had tens of thousands of sailors, marines, and other crew and specialists. Menzies discusses how *thousands* of Chinese people explored and settled throughout North and South America, contributing through intermarrying, as well as bringing rice and other foods, as well as contributing language to various Native languages. Menzies cites a South American example, of a significant portion of their words in their native language have direct correspondance to words in Mandarin Chinese, the precise language of the Chinese Empire, some 500 years ago. There are also stories of tribes intermarrying with strange, Asian men and women in the regions of Western Canada.

Yeah. 1421, brother! Fantastic stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah I'm aware of Menzies' book. it caused a brief stir. Archaeologically, there is far less there than meets the eye. But as a hook for a fantasy game, why not!

One of my professors in grad school was big on the whole precolumbian trans-pacific contacts with northwestern South America and Mesoamerica thing. Africans and Olmec, Mayan elephants, Nazca ceramics from China, the whole deal. It all seemed a little dodgy to me, I wasn't sold, but definitely cool and potentially grist for a fantasy mill.

You run through a lot of stuff here! First of all,

Quote from: SHARK;1077542Greetings!
Very fascinating! In addition, since the Vikings were not super-advanced, their would be a closer technological proximity. I've read snippets of things that while the Vikings were certainly impressive, and seemed to have inspired wondrous mythology amongst the Native people, when push came to shove, the Native Indians evidently gave the Vikings serious military problems. Various archeologists have found remains of Viking settlements that otherwise appear to have simply been annihilated by the Native Indians.
SHARK

I am not aware of any archaeological evidence for any First Nations annihilation of Norse settlements (and there aren't many settlements to even look at), although there is saga evidence for conflict for sure.

Quote from: SHARK;1077542Greetings!

Very fascinating! In addition, since the Vikings were not super-advanced, their would be a closer technological proximity.

SHARK

This doesn't negate anything you say, but one of the depressing things about Norse material culture, at least outside of mainland Europe, is how little of it survives archaeologically. A little iron but not much. Mostly nails and rivets, and those are generally rare. Very little ceramic. Wood and textiles survive only in certain conditions. What you're left with is a few non-ferrous metals, jewellery and the like. Even in Iceland, at known Norse habitation sites, one diagnostic feature is the scarcity of artifacts of any sort. Kind of depressing. In any case, it seems to have been a folksy technology and mostly perishable.

Quote from: Zirunel;1077550This doesn't negate anything you say, but one of the depressing things about Norse material culture, at least outside of mainland Europe, is how little of it survives archaeologically. A little iron but not much. Mostly nails and rivets, and those are generally rare. Very little ceramic. Wood and textiles survive only in certain conditions. What you're left with is a few non-ferrous metals, jewellery and the like. Even in Iceland, at known Norse habitation sites, one diagnostic feature is the scarcity of artifacts of any sort. Kind of depressing. In any case, it seems to have been a folksy technology and mostly perishable.

Hrrrmm...? If you are going to GaryCon look me up, I'll tell you the true story about a band of Welsh Celts that settled in the New World on the Ohio River sometime between the 5th and 11th century. I have documented evidence of their presence in the new world including bronze armor, and a most interesting story to tell, which includes a coverup and black op overseen by none other than President Andrew Jackson. They were here. Before Columbus, I have the survey plans done up by an Indiana State Archaeologist, as well as photographs of the location of one of their Original Motte & Bailey style castles, which was torn down in 1838 and the stones were used to build the first railroad bridge across the Ohio River into Louisville from Indiana.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1077558Hrrrmm...? If you are going to GaryCon look me up, I'll tell you the true story about a band of Welsh Celts that settled in the New World on the Ohio River sometime between the 5th and 11th century. I have documented evidence of their presence in the new world including bronze armor, and a most interesting story to tell, which includes a coverup and black op overseen by none other than President Andrew Jackson. They were here. Before Columbus, I have the survey plans done up by an Indiana State Archaeologist, as well as photographs of the location of one of their Original Motte & Bailey style castles, which was torn down in 1838 and the stones were used to build the first railroad bridge across the Ohio River into Louisville from Indiana.

Wow. Yeah, I don't do the con thing. But damn I'd love to hear the story.

I'll be upfront with you, I hold pretty conventional views on these things, so  not sure I could be sold on dark ages Welshman plying the Ohio, but still, there has to be something interesting behind it.

Like the Andrew Jackson part, that might be the most interesting bit! That story sounds like it might be rich rpg fodder right there!

Greetings!

I have also heard continuous speculations about the Phoenicians making seaborne voyages to the Western Hemisphere in Antiquity. Some have said that the Phoenicians explored North America, the Carribean, and South America. Considering that we know for certain that the Phoenicians were the greatest sailors of the age in this period of Antiquity, and that their shipbuilding, navigation, and seamanship skills were unmatched during the ancient world by anyone. The Phoenicians explored most of Africa, Europe, as well as establishing trade colonies in Britain.

In my opinion, while it is *possible* that the Phoenicians explored the North America, I think it is certainly more *plausible* that the Phoenicians explored at least Brazil, and along the north-eastern shores of South America, and perhaps the Carribean, including providing the inspiration in some fashion for the African-looking statues in Central America. This all of course would have occured before 800 BC, some 2800 years ago, before the rise of Greece, Rome, and in the infancy of Carthage. The Phoenicians were not themselves African, as they were Semites. Essentially the Philistines of the Biblical records. However, especially from Phoenician ports and bases in North Africa, it is not unreasonable to assume that there may have been African sailors amongst other ship-crews of their fleets, and also African merchants accompanying the Phoenicians on their disparate sea journeys, particularly throughout the waters of the Western Mediterranean, and African waters. Hence, an exploration fleet making it over the Atlantic to Brazil and the Carribean seems fairly likely. The Phoenicians possessed strong enough sailing vessels, and had the seafaring skills to sail reliably and consistently from North Africa to ports throughout Spain, Northern Europe, and Britain. Such feats allow them to reasonably make the journey westward to Brazil and the Carribean seems to have been within their capabilities.

All interesting potentials for including all kinds of elements within a game campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So if I were to run a game using the Pottawatomie and with inaccurate information based on bad information by researchers not knowing the difference between the Pottawatomie and Lakota I am not inadvertently insulting both? I don't care about individuals that might be insulted but the, for lack of a better word, spirit of those peoples. And as far as I know I do have native ancestry what I meant to say is that I was not raised in the culture and traditions. I was born into an era when my grandparents were born between 1890 and 1902 and they only had family history that it was (sadly) whispered with shame that one of their ancestors was married to a (Gasp) squaw. I find this appalling but it is what I have. Now I wish to give as respectful of a representation TTRPG as possible and was looking for feedback on the culture and environs and where I can get information with as little post European stink to it, even the published works that I have found, including tales supposedly told by native tellers seem tainted by European influences. Why non-historical? Because it would offend ME to get it wrong not that it would offend others, that it would be as offensive to me as creating a Celtic campaign based on the hundreds of books that all start and end their understanding on the narratives of Caesar. I know that I can't get all the details right, I don't want to have others take my mistakes as gospel truth. The Native Americans, particularly those of the Great Lakes, hold an interest to myself and some of my players. None of us in gaming have first hand knowledge of Dark age or Medieval Europe but game it endlessly, so I want to role play pre European Great Lakes America, a different culture and mindset.

Quote from: L.W.Pickett;1077651Why non-historical? Because it would offend ME to get it wrong not that it would offend others, that it would be as offensive to me as creating a Celtic campaign based on the hundreds of books that all start and end their understanding on the narratives of Caesar. I know that I can't get all the details right, I don't want to have others take my mistakes as gospel truth. The Native Americans, particularly those of the Great Lakes, hold an interest to myself and some of my players. None of us in gaming have first hand knowledge of Dark age or Medieval Europe but game it endlessly, so I want to role play pre European Great Lakes America, a different culture and mindset.

I can understand your reason for wanting to go non-historical, but from my view, I think it's possible to present a historical setting not as the gospel truth - but just as one of many possible takes on the subject. For example, in my Vinland game, I had a bunch of fantasy elements - and further, I explicitly said that I was playing up more the Algonquian vs. Haudenosaunee divide. The scenario was Icelandic settlers allied with various Algonquian tribes - with the Haudenosaunee (known as "redaxes" to the Vinlanders) as the mysterious invaders from the West. So, roughly, the Haudenosaunee were the bad guys (who could have some nobility) while the Algonquians were the good guys (who could be corrupt or flawed).

In general, I prefer historical settings - though I often include fantasy or genre elements. I like the historical aspect because it helps to picture what's there, making things more vivid and real - even if there are fictional / fantasy elements. For example, my Vinland campaign the PCs home was in my home town of Piermont, NY. I could describe the landscape, describe all the places on the geological map, and so forth. For a Cahokia campaign, I could see it being cool to go there, and describe going around the geography of St. Louis.

The trick with the mindset and culture is that it can be very difficult to get into a mindset of a culture about which so little is known. It helps to have some kind of familiar archetypes adapted into the setting. I was talking about the idea with my son, and I thought that I might run a Cahokia campaign with a nod to the Three Musketeers. You've got a big grimy capital city, with nobility and important religion. There must be some sort of elite who were guards for them. Instead of fencing duels, there would be chunkey matches (the super-popular sport which seems central to life there). I think the genre hook helps give the GM and players some idea about what adventures might be like. And having a distinct genre makes it clearer that this is just one take on Cahokia, not a gospel portrayal. A murder mystery set in Cahokia would be played differently, for example.

Quote from: jhkim;1077669I can understand your reason for wanting to go non-historical, but from my view, I think it's possible to present a historical setting not as the gospel truth - but just as one of many possible takes on the subject. For example, in my Vinland game, I had a bunch of fantasy elements - and further, I explicitly said that I was playing up more the Algonquian vs. Haudenosaunee divide. The scenario was Icelandic settlers allied with various Algonquian tribes - with the Haudenosaunee (known as "redaxes" to the Vinlanders) as the mysterious invaders from the West. So, roughly, the Haudenosaunee were the bad guys (who could have some nobility) while the Algonquians were the good guys (who could be corrupt or flawed).

In general, I prefer historical settings - though I often include fantasy or genre elements. I like the historical aspect because it helps to picture what's there, making things more vivid and real - even if there are fictional / fantasy elements. For example, my Vinland campaign the PCs home was in my home town of Piermont, NY. I could describe the landscape, describe all the places on the geological map, and so forth. For a Cahokia campaign, I could see it being cool to go there, and describe going around the geography of St. Louis.

The trick with the mindset and culture is that it can be very difficult to get into a mindset of a culture about which so little is known. It helps to have some kind of familiar archetypes adapted into the setting. I was talking about the idea with my son, and I thought that I might run a Cahokia campaign with a nod to the Three Musketeers. You've got a big grimy capital city, with nobility and important religion. There must be some sort of elite who were guards for them. Instead of fencing duels, there would be chunkey matches (the super-popular sport which seems central to life there). I think the genre hook helps give the GM and players some idea about what adventures might be like. And having a distinct genre makes it clearer that this is just one take on Cahokia, not a gospel portrayal. A murder mystery set in Cahokia would be played differently, for example.

This is very much my mindset, those that have wanted to get involved know that it is based as closely as I can on the natives of the Western Great Lakes region but so much is muddled before the inclusion of Europeans that I find myself having to fill holes and gaps with information from different information even from other language groups of Native Americans and feel more comfortable changing tribal names and the like. I have run a vision quest (an important part of character creation in my game) and the player was thrilled. This player has a little more background in the subject than I did going in and tho the details were not exactly what her native friends had talked of she felt that it "felt" right. This is the most important thing to me so I, as G.M. and designer am happy about that much. What I want is to run a game that is fresh but not to far of the mark of a culture that, although foreign, would not feel alien to the natives of that time and place. I also want to gently nudge the players out of the normal roll play tropes, such as go kill a monster and get treasure, or even trying for what we commonly view as treasure.

This is one of my favorite settings that involves Precolonial America. The only catch is that it has fantasy analogues of Russians, Imperial Chinese, and Norse people.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/94693/Totems-of-the-Dead-Players-Guide-to-the-Untamed-lands?term=Totems+of+The+Dead

Quote from: arcanuum;1077777This is one of my favorite settings that involves Precolonial America. The only catch is that it has fantasy analogues of Russians, Imperial Chinese, and Norse people.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/94693/Totems-of-the-Dead-Players-Guide-to-the-Untamed-lands?term=Totems+of+The+Dead

How could you forget the Atlanteans, Amazons, and fantasy Africans?!

Seriously, though, Totems of the Dead is a real gem and one of the best Savage Worlds settings in existence, IMO. It's a shame the line didn't take off and we didn't get more stuff for it.

I just don't think you're going to win the "how do I not insult this culture people are hypersensitive about" game. Case in point: Monte Cook Games

If you want to write anything about Native Americans, start practicing for your apology tour before you write a single word to page. Someone, somewhere will find a way to take offense because it's not about correctness so much as it's about power and victim-hood status.

Quote from: Dracones;1077808I just don't think you're going to win the "how do I not insult this culture people are hypersensitive about" game. Case in point: Monte Cook Games

If you want to write anything about Native Americans, start practicing for your apology tour before you write a single word to page. Someone, somewhere will find a way to take offense because it's not about correctness so much as it's about power and victim-hood status.

So if I were to run a game using the Pottawatomie and with inaccurate information based on bad information by researchers not knowing the difference between the Pottawatomie and Lakota I am not inadvertently insulting both? I don't care about individuals that might be insulted but the, for lack of a better word, spirit of those peoples. And as far as I know I do have native ancestry what I meant to say is that I was not raised in the culture and traditions. I was born into an era when my grandparents were born between 1890 and 1902 and they only had family history that it was (sadly) whispered with shame that one of their ancestors was married to a (Gasp) squaw. I find this appalling but it is what I have. Now I wish to give as respectful of a representation TTRPG as possible and was looking for feedback on the culture and environs and where I can get information with as little post European stink to it, even the published works that I have found, including tales supposedly told by native tellers seem tainted by European influences. Why non-historical? Because it would offend ME to get it wrong not that it would offend others, that it would be as offensive to me as creating a Celtic campaign based on the hundreds of books that all start and end their understanding on the narratives of Caesar. I know that I can't get all the details right, I don't want to have others take my mistakes as gospel truth. The Native Americans, particularly those of the Great Lakes, hold an interest to myself and some of my players. None of us in gaming have first hand knowledge of Dark age or Medieval Europe but game it endlessly, so I want to role play pre European Great Lakes America, a different culture and mindset.

Truly pre-colonial is very hard to get any good info about though. This is because the natives around the Great Lakes didn't write anything down themselves. AFAIK the only pre-Colombian culture of the Americas where you get some half-decent sources would be the Maya in Central America. You could of course take what was written by white Americans and Europeans, throw in some things like myths and oral traditions, and extrapolate from there.

Oh and about the "offensive" bit. Real history or fantasy, it is going to be offensive to some people no matter what you do. I believe there is evidence that the Lakota became plains Indians by massacring whoever lived there before. Native Americans also used to raid each other for women and other "goods". Anybody who tells you that native Americans were more "humane" is either lying or misinformed. But that does not mean that it isn't fun or interesting to use as a setting, far from it.