Witch Hunter: The Invisible World portrayed the Aztecs as an evil nest of terror and dark magics. It also portrayed the various North American native peoples as largely "good guys" in the battle against evil magic even though they were oft at odds with the Europeans (for all the obvious reasons). I don't know how well that portrayal went over.

Quote from: OmSwaOperations;1079210Apologies in advance if this has been mentioned in the thread before, but Dragons Conquer America is an RPG based on (an obviously fictionalised) version of the time period when Conquistadores began arriving in Mesoamerica. It looks pretty cool (I backed it on Kickstarter ages ago), so would recommend checking it out if you're after some of that Aztec goodness.

It had not been mentioned. It looks interesting, though the OP wanted pre-Columbian and North American (rather than Mesoamerican). Do you have the full game yet? I was impressed that the Quickstart guide is 113 pages and fully illustrated - with what seems like complete rules and a sample adventure. Here's the main page:

https://burning-games.com/dragons-conquer-america/

However, the link to the quickstart is currently broken on there, so I had to search it separately:

https://www.rpgnow.com/product/221127/Dragons-Conquer-America-The-Coatli-Stone-Quickstart

Quote from: HappyDaze;1079222Witch Hunter: The Invisible World portrayed the Aztecs as an evil nest of terror and dark magics. It also portrayed the various North American native peoples as largely "good guys" in the battle against evil magic even though they were oft at odds with the Europeans (for all the obvious reasons). I don't know how well that portrayal went over.

A common popular notion is that the Aztecs were the bad guys of the New World. It's also an extremely stupid and ill-informed notion. But if someone wants to create a game setting like that, it only means I either won't want to run their game as written - i.e. I will remove the Evil Aztecs™ from the setting - or won't even bother buying it. No reason for any outrage.

Quote from: 3rik;1079387A common popular notion is that the Aztecs were the bad guys of the New World. It's also an extremely stupid and ill-informed notion.

What was the reality?

Quote from: S'mon;1079401What was the reality?

Human sacrifice and cannibalism on a mass scale.  Obviously not the bad guys, sheesh.

Quote from: S'mon;1079401What was the reality?

The Mayans and the Olmec, practiced human sacrifice as well, and sacrificed their best warriors and leaders of their enemies as well as themselves. They also took slaves in large numbers, from the Aztec as well as other central American tribes. The Inca were very warlike, and made war on many of the central American and Amazonian Tribes, and did not take prisoners and sacrifices, but instead demanded tribute from the conquered tribes which were then transported to their cities. The Inca only settled in high inaccessible cities in the Andes after the Spanish Invasion. They made almost continuous  war on the Aztec and the Maya. That was the reality.

Quote from: Trond;1078375Does Native American culture exist? Or Indian culture (from India)?

Yes. And theyve been trying, and succeeding, in exterminating each other since long before europeans set foot on the land.

I suggest you go and read some proper books on the subjects.

Quote from: 3rik;1079492I suggest you go and read some proper books on the subjects.

We have. The Aztecs were among the most brutal people right up there with e.g. the Assyrians and Romans, plus the human sacrifice part. Of course no people were ever like evil orcs, but if you want a group of "bad guys"  (same way the Spanish are frequently "bad guys" in pirate settings) then the Aztecs are as good as any. So what exactly is the misinformation being spread here?

Edit: has been a while since I read up on this so I looked it up. First thing that popped up was this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/26/science/sci-aztec26

I think there is an aspect of underlying power dynamics, in some examples of cultural appropriation.

The reason that people get upset about mainstream America making Native American things is because native tribes were cheated a lot by the immigrant US government and that imbalance has never been fully addressed. It's not just intellectual property rights.

It's like St Patrick's day is not seen as cultural appropriation because Ireland is a free country. If the UK was still occupying Eire and making green hats and all that shit on St Patrick's day then it would probably cause a lot more controversy. A larger group taking the culture of a dominated group and turning it into consumer trinkets or co-opting it so it becomes a part of the larger group's story is a way of slowly eroding the identity of the smaller group.

The communist party in China wants to select the next Tibetan Dalai Lama. They are probably also spreading propaganda in Tibet about how Tibet is part of Chinese history. After enough time the smaller community is just fully absorbed into the larger one. East Asia is filled with examples of this, but because we learn more about Western history and culture these discussions are mostly about the US.

And we are used to the stuff that has already happened. We don't think about Celtic culture as an oppressed group in the UK nowadays, but I'm sure a Celtic tribe vying against Romans would have fought really hard to keep their rituals secret, and for their communities to stick together.

Specifically in the Native American case I can see why people have strong opinions about it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1078440If any author thinks they can appease the SJW garbage, they're dead wrong...unless they're in the SJW preferred circle, and that only lasts until the next round of Purity Bingo. Regardless of your research or "respect", the Outrage Mob can always find fault. In fact, regardless of your research and respect, just not being "Native American" is enough to disqualify any author from even being "allowed" to write such a RPG.

And not just that. Even if you are "Native" then odds are you will get lambasted for being the wrong nation. And better yet. Eventually you wont be "Native enough" and are raked over the coals for appropriation crimes against humanity.

Quote from: Zirunel;1078511

Quote from: Motorskills;1078398I think jhkim is right, there is no (single) "native American culture."

Actually, there may be an exception in the modern era, but if you are talking precontact/early contact (which I think we are) then it doesn't really apply.

Nope. Even today most native americans are still divided into nations. Before it was torn down a few years ago they held an annual meeting at the Thunderbird Hotel in Minnesota. Which bemusingly allways co-incided with a convention I attended each year.

Quote from: SHARK;1078729I reject "Cultural Appropriation" as an insidious, anti-American control word and form of ideology. It's just wrong, Motorskills, on so many levels.

Its not just anti-american. It is anti-everyone. Its segregation on a monsterous level. Whats next? Mixed race marriages banned because its appropriating or erasing their culture. Welcome back Miscegenation!

Back on topic. Such as it was...

to the OP. How far back were you planning to set things? Pre-Colonial? Further? Ice Age? Stone Age?

Quote from: Verdant;1079534I think there is an aspect of underlying power dynamics, in some examples of cultural appropriation.

The reason that people get upset about mainstream America making Native American things is because native tribes were cheated a lot by the immigrant US government and that imbalance has never been fully addressed. It's not just intellectual property rights.

Thing is. The native americans were cheating, and more often murdering eachother long before europeans got on the scene. Whole nations were exterminated just because they had a rep of being dishonest or treacherous. Yes. The NA people got mistreated massively. But they mistreated eachother massively. The advent of eurpoeans was just a new form of the same ol same ol.

History that far too often gets swept under the rug so the big victim card can be played ad nausium instead of addressing issues external and internal in a more coherent manner. And even just a few years ago theres been external troubles here and there.

Back on topic.
If you are going to have a NA themed setting then you have to accept that its going to end up looking alot like a fantasy game setting with alot of warring and genociding and slavery going on unless you water it down to little more than just another NA cliche.

Think about the WHY of your settings cultures acting as they do. Why does the River-Runs-Red nation periodically sweep through the area from the west and do their damndest to genocide the region. But never settle it after? Why do the Green Coyote peoples have such a reputation for treachery and backstabbing? Are the Black Heron tribes really as good of diplomats as everyone believes?

Another thing to consider is economy. Trade was a big thing for some tribes. Who is trading what with who? Does anyone else covet those resources?

Does anyone have a monopoly on a particular skillset?

Even something as simple, yet not, as how mobile a tribe or nation is can have a large impact on setting and gameplay.

Quote from: Omega;1079574Thing is. The native americans were cheating, and more often murdering eachother long before europeans got on the scene. Whole nations were exterminated just because they had a rep of being dishonest or treacherous. Yes. The NA people got mistreated massively. But they mistreated eachother massively. The advent of eurpoeans was just a new form of the same ol same ol.

History that far too often gets swept under the rug so the big victim card can be played ad nausium instead of addressing issues external and internal in a more coherent manner. And even just a few years ago theres been external troubles here and there.

Back on topic.
If you are going to have a NA themed setting then you have to accept that its going to end up looking alot like a fantasy game setting with alot of warring and genociding and slavery going on unless you water it down to little more than just another NA cliche.

Think about the WHY of your settings cultures acting as they do. Why does the River-Runs-Red nation periodically sweep through the area from the west and do their damndest to genocide the region. But never settle it after? Why do the Green Coyote peoples have such a reputation for treachery and backstabbing? Are the Black Heron tribes really as good of diplomats as everyone believes?

Another thing to consider is economy. Trade was a big thing for some tribes. Who is trading what with who? Does anyone else covet those resources?

Does anyone have a monopoly on a particular skillset?

Even something as simple, yet not, as how mobile a tribe or nation is can have a large impact on setting and gameplay.

Greetings!

You make some excellent points, Omega! You know, white people get blamed for genocide against the NA so much, but not merely blamed, but *villified* even today, constantly. Well, too fucking bad, you know? It is so easily forgotten, as you pointed out, NA tribes *routinely* slaughtered each other, and genocided entire tribes. Their old, their men, children over the age of 14 were all commonly hunted down, and killed, leaving only the children under about 14 and the *women* to be enslaved, and "married" into the tribe. Yeah, foreign women were also *lower than fuck* on the tribal pecking order. Foreign tribe women were expected to shut the fuck up, fuck constantly, and breed. And work, and do what everyone told her to do. The man who captured her could beat her senseless if he wanted to--but he often didn't need to do so. There were always a gang of 6, 8 or a dozen of his tribal women that would catch her, and beat the fuck out of her with sticks and whips, over and over again, and made sure she *knew* her status was to be a good slave to everyone. So, yeah, foreign women taken captive learned very quick to keep their mouth's shut, fuck and breed, and get real happy with working like a slave for the rest of her life.

This was routine practice throughout the NA tribes. A foreigner could, after many years of slavery, breeding, and absolute obedience and loyalty, potentially look forward to being formally adopted into the tribe as a member, from which their social status would then be officially changed, and they would then enjoy a better life as a member of the tribe. That wasn't always guaranteed, however, and while it was possible for both male and female foreigners, it was in many ways easier for foreign women. Depending on the tribe in question, the chieftain, the elders, who the foreign slave's master was, and the tribe's status and political situation. All of those factors played a role in whether or not a foreign captive's status amongst the tribe would change, and how fast it would do so.

Entire tribes were annihilated by other NA tribes long before they ever set eyes on a white European. Some tribes were more peaceful, while others were especially feared near and far for their ferociousness in war and conquest, like the Iroquois, the Cherokee, Sioux, Commanche, Apache, and Pawnee, for example. Down in the marshes of Florida and Georgia, the Seminole tribes had reputations for not being especially expansionist, but crazy vicious if you fucked with them. Many tribes walked carefully around the Seminoles, for example. NA tribes had learned to respect the Seminole's territory, and not to provoke them. The United States Army fought a crazy, savage war against the Seminoles for a good number of years. The Seminole tribes resisted bitterly, fighting every step of the way, for every yard of marsh and swamp.

In any campaign using such a primitive, tribal environment embracing NA themes, the entire environment should be, like many of the colonial ambassadors remarked at the time, a bewildering patchwork of competing tribes, some eager for peace and trade, while others are savage, and hungry for war and blood. With many lying somewhere in between, and politically influenced by their own chieftain, elders, or councils of women, or their shamans. Then you also had a keen sense of cultural awareness and racial consciousness. There were some traditionalist tribes for example, that would make war on and slaughter lesser tribes that they felt were "too much in love with the white man; or too much in love with the ways of the white man." Such other tribes were also often punished for not being sufficiently zealous about keeping the ancient tribal customs and traditions. Then of course, there were inter-tribal civil wars, between half a tribe that remained traditional, independent, and rejected anything to do with white culture; while the other half of the tribe viewed themselves as "progressive" and "open-minded". These "race traitors", "tribal traitors", "compromisers", etc, were often eager to interbreed with the white people as well, and eagerly adopted white culture, religion, clothing, and of course, guns. Naturally, the white society--and the U.S. Army watched for such inter-tribal conflicts, and readily made political and military moves to exploit them to the fullest advantage.

Even without foreign, white invaders and colonizers, a NA tribal environment should be vibrant and complex, with numerous economic and cultural rivalries, as well as bitter tribal hatred and racism, often going back for generations into the past. Interestingly, in many tribes, the women were very eager to torture foreign prisoners captured in war. The tribes often enjoyed hearing the prisoners scream in agony as the women tortured them, and the tribes enjoyed watching it all as a form of entertainment, but also as a way of honouring the prisoners, with seeing how much pain they could heroically endure before dying, thus giving them greater honour at death, and a more celebrated afterlife in the spirit world.

Isn't that gratifying to know, just before the women torture you with tongs, scrapers, and fire, that they are *honouring* you, and that if you endure having your body torn to pieces slowly, and roasted in fire, you too, will be rewarded in the afterlife!

Ah, yes. A happy, wondrous, "Garden of Eden"!!:) Such a campaign would be awesome fun!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK