Quote from: Trond;1078733But now you're boiling it down to nothing but basic respect. That is not what most proponents of this way of thinking is talking about, or they are misusing the term. So what if some lady wears a dress with vaguely Chinese patterns? I have lived in three countries, and my wife and I come from totally different cultures (and different continents), and we picked up a thing or two here and there. Just look at the little comic that is shown at the beginning of your link. People who whine about cultural appropriation seem to think that there is some sort of damage done by the posh store selling "culturally appropriated" clothes. BTW the clothing sold by the brown lady is almost certainly made with a mix of techniques and patterns, much of it from the West.

Greetings!

Indeed, Trond. It isn't boiled down to basic respect. That's otherwise known as "Moving the Goalposts!" Who isn't in favour of showing respect to other people and other cultures? That's why I explain that it is a term of social dissension, and control--it's a way of creating problems between groups, where no such problem existed previously. It's an imaginary problem, loaded with ideological buzzwords and ideology to support and define it. At the end of the day, the entire argument has no real basis in reality. Am I making sense, Trond?

I love other cultures, and different peoples. I can speak several foreign languages, or could in the past, LOL--from German, French, Japanese, Latin, and Spanish. Embracing commerce, wearing clothes, eating food, music, hair styles, whatever--it is all to be used, embraced, and celebrated. Someone is only being disrespectful--or villifying--if they are engaged in direct, public vandalism or some other demonstration with the express purpose to denigrate or disparage whatever it is. Even that can be interpreted. To my mind, such an activity would have to be something like that to even qualify as being "disrepectful" or somehow otherwise disparaging.

If I went down to the border below San Diego, and soaked a Mexican flag in gasoline and burned it publicly, I'm not being nice. If I'm at home, and the dogs chewed the shit out of my sister-in-law's Mexican flag she had hanging on her bedroom wall, and I burned the flag in my backyard, I would be showing the flag *respect*. That's just me though.

You know this "Cultural Appropriation" is also bullshit because no one anywhere else in the world even talks about this nonsense. Only here, in America, and usually by white SJW's.

Oh, and Cinco De Mayo? It isn't even a Mexican holiday. It's an Americanized celebration designed, much like St. Patrick's Day, as an excuse to party, eat, and drink. Mexicans celebrate it here in America, and along the border...because yeah, let's PARTY! LOL. Why not? It's always a good thing to party, get together with family and friends, enjoy great food and of course, Mas Cervesa!!! LOL.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Trond;1078733But now you're boiling it down to nothing but basic respect. That is not what most proponents of this way of thinking is talking about, or they are misusing the term. So what if some lady wears a dress with vaguely Chinese patterns? I have lived in three countries, and my wife and I come from totally different cultures (and different continents), and we picked up a thing or two here and there. Just look at the little comic that is shown at the beginning of your link. People who whine about cultural appropriation seem to think that there is some sort of damage done by the posh store selling "culturally appropriated" clothes. BTW the clothing sold by the brown lady is almost certainly made with a mix of techniques and patterns, much of it from the West.

Well, sure, I won't claim to be an expert on this stuff, don't have a degree from University of East Angrier or anything, but the examples that I find nodding at ultimately do result from basic disrespect.

I mean, I'm British, we were global masters at cultural appropriation, we literally dug culture out of the ground and shipped it home. Some of the arguments continue to this day.

When an American chef in Paris creates a novel fusion dish originating from from Kenyan and Thai ingredients / recipes, he's creating something new, something that positively reflects the culture of all four(?) places. When another chef passes off a street recipe from Caracas as his own, that - forgive the pun - leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

When it comes to RPGs, do the basic research to recognise tropes for what they are, make a conscious decision to use them or not. Maybe hire a region-local artist for one or more of the plates. Maybe get a region-local group to headline a playtest. If they love your effort, great, if they don't, maybe re-think it. I don't see those as shackles, rather the opposite.

Quote from: jhkim;1078737For the record, I'm against the broad position against cultural appropriation that I've seen. It's based on a parallel to Intellectual Property rights, which I also think are overly broad. Still, I think we should be clear what the supposed problem is.


To describe the more narrow cases that people had a problem... For example, Native American crafters often sell jewelry, dreamcatchers, and other items. These have been popular with many consumers both for their style and for their cultural significance. However, markets arose where non-native companies would sell knock-off items that copied the designs, and tried to shut out genuine craftsmen from the market by obscuring or deceiving as to what the real traditions are, and who is selling. This was economically harmful, particularly because selling their traditional crafted items has often been vital to poor native economies.

Emotionally, I can understand this. It irks me to think of traditional craftsmen and other creators struggling to get any sort of recognition or to make a living, while non-native people make a tidy profit off of their faux Native American trinkets and works, claiming to be genuine. A parallel in film is Native American actors who couldn't get any work - even playing Native American parts - when white actors would get Native American parts by falsely claiming ancestry and then making up fake mannerisms and traditions. (I think particularly of the Sicilian-American actor who portrayed dozens of prominent Indian parts including the crying Indian in the "Keep America Beautiful" ads.)

That said, I think this is generalized too far in many descriptions of what wrongful appropriation is.

Greetings!

I agree, Jhkim. That kind of economic action is bullshit, and it is morally wrong for companies to behave that way. However, such should be dealt with in courts. In such circumstances, I hope various Native craftsmen and so on can be treated fairly and appropriately.

That's all part of a narrow application or expression of marketplace dynamics though, Jhkim. It is worlds away from the ideological shaggoth of "Cultural Appropriation."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1078744I agree, Jhkim. That kind of economic action is bullshit, and it is morally wrong for companies to behave that way. However, such should be dealt with in courts. In such circumstances, I hope various Native craftsmen and so on can be treated fairly and appropriately.

I'm guessing it is totally legal, why would it not be? Even if it wasn't, how is some tribal grandma in the middle of nowhere supposed to fight EvilCorp?

 You agree with me that it is morally wrong, yet you aren't prepared to put some moral weight behind that agreement.

Quote from: Motorskills;1078746I'm guessing it is totally legal, why would it not be? Even if it wasn't, how is some tribal grandma in the middle of nowhere supposed to fight EvilCorp?

 You agree with me that it is morally wrong, yet you aren't prepared to put some moral weight behind that agreement.

It's wrong if they say that it's produced by the tribal grandma when it isn't. I think that could be taken to court. But in the case where the factories play by the rules, I guess what she can do is mark it with "certified handmade by tribal grandma" and hope that some people will prefer that to mass-produced junk. I certainly would, but I know some people who can't tell the difference between jade and plastic.

Quote from: Trond;1078747It's wrong if they say that it's produced by the tribal grandma when it isn't. I think that could be taken to court. But in the case where the factories play by the rules, I guess what she can do is mark it with "certified handmade by tribal grandma" and hope that some people will prefer that to mass-produced junk. I certainly would, but I know some people who can't tell the difference between jade and plastic.

Greetings!

Exactly, Trond. It is not against the law to make some shitty knock-off widget. Just down the road from me, there's a leather shop. The owner, a white man, has been making hand-crafted leather goods for 40 years. Saddles, belts, and so on. A good leather belt from him comes at a considerable price. Across town, I can also get a "leather" belt for far less.

Do you think there is a difference between the two theoretical leather belts? Naturally, the prices for such are starkly different.

I *know* where I want to shop for a good leather belt.

Merchants and other craftsmen, whether they are white, brown, yellow or purple need to compete in the marketplace, like everyone else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Motorskills;1078746I'm guessing it is totally legal, why would it not be? Even if it wasn't, how is some tribal grandma in the middle of nowhere supposed to fight EvilCorp?

 You agree with me that it is morally wrong, yet you aren't prepared to put some moral weight behind that agreement.

Greetings!

"Moral Weight" Motorskills? LOL. Yeah, I put the "Moral Weight" of cold, hard, green *cash* behind my business choices in the marketplace. I don't patronize lousy businesses selling cheap fucking junk. A solid company doing good work, with good customer service, can easily gain my patronage as a loyal customer.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1078756Greetings!

"Moral Weight" Motorskills? LOL. Yeah, I put the "Moral Weight" of cold, hard, green *cash* behind my business choices in the marketplace. I don't patronize lousy businesses selling cheap fucking junk. A solid company doing good work, with good customer service, can easily gain my patronage as a loyal customer.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'd agree with you except for the fact that it isn't just quality we are talking about. Trond makes the reasonable argument about labelling (albeit you then can get into some rather contentious territory).

Ultimately EvilCorp has other commercial options, tribal grandma probably doesn't.

My point is that we, the 'market', can do more than just speak with our own wallets, we can put pressure on EvilCorp to do the right thing, and suggest to other people not to purchase from EvilCorp.

Quote from: Motorskills;1078759I'd agree with you except for the fact that it isn't just quality we are talking about. Trond makes the reasonable argument about labelling (albeit you then can get into some rather contentious territory).

Ultimately EvilCorp has other commercial options, tribal grandma probably doesn't.

My point is that we, the 'market', can do more than just speak with our own wallets, we can put pressure on EvilCorp to do the right thing, and suggest to other people not to purchase from EvilCorp.

Greetings!

Good, Motorskills. What you are talking about, however, has far more to do with Business Law, and commerce courts. Beyond the specific companies involved, whether Evilcorp and Tribal Grandma, *most* of any such dispute is still the province of a court of law.

In such cases, as I mentioned, I would hope that justice and law would prevail.

None of those kinds of cases though, have anything to do with "Cultural Appropriation." There is no relevance or merit what so ever about a white girl wearing dreadlocks. Or an Asian girl wearing those things that not only give them blue or green eyes, but make their eyes round like white people, instead of slanted. Or a white girl choosing to wear some ancient Chinese dress style for her high school prom. Or Taco fucking Bell making and selling terrible Mexican food that most Mexicans laugh at and ridicule mercilessly, with lots of eye-rolling and shrieks of laughter. (Even though they eagerly patronize and eat at Taco Bell, just like millions of Americans everywhere. It also doesn't have jack to do with some game designer or author making up some quasi-Native American fantasy culture to go into an RPG book.

Real Business fraud or Business copyright, logo, whatever advertising and marketing violations should be fully dealt with in a court of law. On one hand, in Business, you potentially have legitimate breaches of law, and such should be addressed. On the other hand, you have ideological tyranny and control words designed to gain attention, power, and extorted wealth to some, while demonizing and villifying the target group.

Ultimately, that is why "Cultural Appropriation" is nonsense, and should be defeated at every opportunity, whenever Liberals try and bring that out into the situation. Liberals and SJW's need to be mocked ruthlessly, and shamed for being morons, Communists, and UnAmerican. At best, innocent Liberals have been duped into being Communist shills by embracing this stupid ideological vehicle by their True Red Masters that spoon feed them drivel and keep them sucking on the tit of identity politics, socialism, and collectivism.

As to what, beyond our dollars, your assertion that we can do *more*? Hmmm...I've always known that *money* talks, Motorskills. Money, Profits and Losses statements are what companies *hear* and tend to overwhelmingly hear the *loudest*. After all, when enough customers refuse to shop at Evilcorp, Evilcorp goes bankrupt, and everyone loses their jobs, including the executives. Owners of stupid companies and businesses go fucking bankrupt all the time, because they don't really know how to run a company properly. Beyond choosing where we spend our money, and provide our loyal patronage, I suppose you can write a company a letter, or make a phone call to the owner/president/whoever executive. Beyond that, what more would you as an individual do? And alongside that, with a legitimate business law dispute, no one cares what you or I think. We are not members of the cases in question, we have no legal standing, and it is none of our business.

Ever seen Gordon Ramsey? He goes into failing restaurants, and tears these morons down. It's funny as hell watching these corner-cutting, microwave-using restaurant owners have emotional breakdowns from getting schooled by Ramsey. Still, many businesses fail and go bankrupt, whether they are restaurants, bookstores (Hi, Borders Books! I used to love you!) or record/music/book stores, like Tower Books/Records. Banks and so on. No one is immune. Be stupid, produce shitty products, disrespect your customers--and you will eventualy be sitting at the local park, unemployed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1078755Greetings!

Exactly, Trond. It is not against the law to make some shitty knock-off widget. Just down the road from me, there's a leather shop. The owner, a white man, has been making hand-crafted leather goods for 40 years. Saddles, belts, and so on. A good leather belt from him comes at a considerable price. Across town, I can also get a "leather" belt for far less.

Do you think there is a difference between the two theoretical leather belts? Naturally, the prices for such are starkly different.

I *know* where I want to shop for a good leather belt.

Merchants and other craftsmen, whether they are white, brown, yellow or purple need to compete in the marketplace, like everyone else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not sure about those purple people, Shark.  

Quote from: Trond;1078747It's wrong if they say that it's produced by the tribal grandma when it isn't. I think that could be taken to court. But in the case where the factories play by the rules, I guess what she can do is mark it with "certified handmade by tribal grandma" and hope that some people will prefer that to mass-produced junk. I certainly would, but I know some people who can't tell the difference between jade and plastic.

The "certified handmade by tribal grandma" implies that there is some sort of legal certification of authenticity, and in general, there isn't such a thing. Creating such a certification is something people who complain about appropriation often call for - i.e. separating appropriated culture from genuine culture. Without a legal framework like this, it's not illegal to make inaccurate claims about your heritage. To take a specific example, the actor Iron Eyes Cody played tons of Indian parts for decades (until his death in the 1990s) claiming to be Indian, when actually he was Sicilian-American. It would have been bad publicity for him, but I don't think anyone could legally sue him for that.

But to get this back on topic, I don't think the core of this is likely to matter for a game or published work with an American Indian setting. The main thing is not pretending authentic American Indian-ness. I doubt most people is advocating for anything like that. I recall a story game called "Bone White, Blood Red" which came under criticism at some point - but it was thick with pretentious pseudo-authentic sounding text.

Quote from: jhkim;1078767The "certified handmade by tribal grandma" implies that there is some sort of legal certification of authenticity, and in general, there isn't such a thing.

Not exactly. I used "tribal grandma" instead of a name of a person. I don't think you can authenticate something being made by, say, Native Americans as such.

Quote from: jhkimThe "certified handmade by tribal grandma" implies that there is some sort of legal certification of authenticity, and in general, there isn't such a thing.

Quote from: Trond;1078778Not exactly. I used "tribal grandma" instead of a name of a person. I don't think you can authenticate something being made by, say, Native Americans as such.

I think that fits with my point though, right? i.e. A dream catcher could be "certified handmade by Lilly Standing Bear" - but even if that meant anything at all, Lily Standing Bear could be the pen name of a Vietnamese worker in some big city sweatshop, who assembles dream catchers according to written instructions from provided parts.

Quote from: jhkim;1078788I think that fits with my point though, right? i.e. A dream catcher could be "certified handmade by Lilly Standing Bear" - but even if that meant anything at all, Lily Standing Bear could be the pen name of a Vietnamese worker in some big city sweatshop, who assembles dream catchers according to written instructions from provided parts.

Even if there's an actual person by that name making the same thing?

Quote from: SHARK;1078693"Appropriation" is an SJW buzzword that is absolute nonsense.

Right you are. Here's an excellent example from Playboy Magazine (in an article about Ariana Grande) showing the typical context of use of that phrase:

QuoteHence why I felt betrayed and hurt after watching her continue her pattern of appropriating black and Asian cultures with 7 rings only to then reach across the aisle to play nice with noted racist, misogynist, homophobe and transphobe Piers Morgan. If she's going to advocate for feminism as part of her brand or headline Manchester Pride, Grande has a duty to check her privilege as a cisgender white woman and to use her international platform responsibly.

I think I mentioned this before: Playboy has become a feminist magazine. The ridiculous thing is, of course, that many feminists see them as the enemy.

https://www.playboy.com/read/in-which-we-remember-ariana-grande-is-white

Apologies in advance if this has been mentioned in the thread before, but Dragons Conquer America is an RPG based on (an obviously fictionalised) version of the time period when Conquistadores began arriving in Mesoamerica. It looks pretty cool (I backed it on Kickstarter ages ago), so would recommend checking it out if you're after some of that Aztec goodness.