Greetings!

A great King was once told, "Look to your defenses, O' King! Enemy Champions gather at your gates!"

The great King calmly laid hold of his glorious and terrible sword. Tightening his grip on the ancient blade, the great King gazed upwards, briefly, before saying simply, "LET THEM COME!"

With that, the great King stalked from his throne room, to the day of battle ahead.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkimYou mention the different invaders to the land, and the non-Aztecs (who from context sound like they are the evil empire of the setting). Can you comment on the different native cultures? Which are the most detailed and interesting?

Quote from: Brand55;1078477The Maztlani Empire (not-Aztecs) is probably one of the more "evil" groups in the setting along with some of the Atlanteans, but that's mostly because they're among the most warlike and they heavily practice human sacrifice and cannibalism. Not the sort of stuff most PCs will want to partake in. You could still do a game set there, though. Here's a short thread where some people listed some of the groups available and which real-world inspirations were tied to each: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/totems-of-the-dead-which-cultures-are-influenced-by-which-real-world-cultures.596769/

For my own part, I'm probably most interested in the Eastern Woodlands tribes purely because of my own family history and interest in mound culture as well as the southern empires. Doing something with a fantasy version of Cahokia brings to mind so many possibilities. Probably the two most fleshed-out societies are the Maztlani (not-Aztec) and Yaurcoan (not-Incan) Empires. A lot of details are pulled straight from history, if slightly tweaked here and there, and then you get the fantastical mixed in like the fact that the Yaurcoan elite have managed to master and ride a group of pterosaur-like creatures.

And the books don't shy away from the fact that we're just getting the broad view of things. Your character might fall into the "Eastern Woodlands Tribesman" category at character creation, but that gets further divided into north and south and from there the book mentions how there are actually dozens of distinct tribal cultures that make up each of those categories.

Thanks. I think the very broad focus (plus lack of later supplements) means I'm more tempted to use actual history rather than Totems of the Dead per se for my tastes. But I may well mine it for some ideas. Pterosaur-riding Incans sounds fun, but like you, I'm actually more interested in mound-builders right now.

This thread really has me eager to run a swashbuckling game around classic Cahokia, probably around 1200 - just as the palisade is being built. (Increased political tension.) I may well set up a one-shot - possibly using Savage Worlds - to run at a local convention or group first, and then gauge reaction from there.

Quote from: Motorskills;1078464A quick trawl on google for "Native American tropes", "racist tropes", (etc) shows all sorts of things that a good writer could easily avoid, but are you arguing that a writer should include them anyway if the fandom has come to expect it?

A "good writer"? Good for what? Pleasing the political correctness police?

Fuck that and fuck them.

Writers can either shackle themselves or they can be free to create. Of course, if you're espousing your work as "historical fiction", you should make sure your history is solid, but if you're just "appropriating" concepts from history or cultures to create something fantastical, you owe absolutely zero to historical accuracy, even less to pleasing the PC Police.

So fuck yeah I'm saying that if you're creating a FANTASY FICTION using "racist tropes" is 100% fine. Hell, if I was writing a "historical fiction" or "alt-history fiction" I would damn well become knowledgeable of the "racist tropes" for the era/people I was writing about so understand the perceptions of people during that era, and even weave those tropes into the dialogue.

Thus, I'm 100% in support of an author creating an alien race based solely on "anti-white racist tropes", and their ONLY failing would be in not making that alien race interesting and engaging in their fiction.

Quote from: Motorskills;1078464But equally, slapping the label "fantasy RPG" on something doesn't make it immune from criticism about the way it is drawing from its source terrain.

Criticism from who? The Outrage Mob who need their teeth kicked in?

A fantasy RPG deserves praise or criticism based on how it actually plays at the table, not how it pleases the "feels" of online asshats.

An alt-history RPG can absolutely be criticized for its accuracy/sources/depictions. It's a major reason I don't enjoy Deadlands.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1078654Writers can either shackle themselves or they can be free to create. Of course, if you're espousing your work as "historical fiction", you should make sure your history is solid, but if you're just "appropriating" concepts from history or cultures to create something fantastical, you owe absolutely zero to historical accuracy, even less to pleasing the PC Police.

So fuck yeah I'm saying that if you're creating a FANTASY FICTION using "racist tropes" is 100% fine.

I agree that fantasy games shouldn't conform to historical accuracy.

However, fantasy can still reflect real-world trends and values. Many people around here have criticized fantasy games for having too much gender equality and/or LGBT acceptance, for example. Conversely, fantasy can also represent racist values.

I don't agree that racist tropes are 100% fine. For example, consider Sunflower the centaur from Disney's Fantasia. It's just fantasy, but I think people were justified to be upset at the character. She represents a ton of negative stereotypes about black people. If I were to encounter a character like that in an RPG, even as a fantasy race, I'd have issues with it. I don't want that kind of crap in my game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1078654A "good writer"? Good for what? Pleasing the political correctness police?

Fuck that and fuck them.

Writers can either shackle themselves or they can be free to create. Of course, if you're espousing your work as "historical fiction", you should make sure your history is solid, but if you're just "appropriating" concepts from history or cultures to create something fantastical, you owe absolutely zero to historical accuracy, even less to pleasing the PC Police.

So fuck yeah I'm saying that if you're creating a FANTASY FICTION using "racist tropes" is 100% fine. Hell, if I was writing a "historical fiction" or "alt-history fiction" I would damn well become knowledgeable of the "racist tropes" for the era/people I was writing about so understand the perceptions of people during that era, and even weave those tropes into the dialogue.

Thus, I'm 100% in support of an author creating an alien race based solely on "anti-white racist tropes", and their ONLY failing would be in not making that alien race interesting and engaging in their fiction.




Criticism from who? The Outrage Mob who need their teeth kicked in?

A fantasy RPG deserves praise or criticism based on how it actually plays at the table, not how it pleases the "feels" of online asshats.

An alt-history RPG can absolutely be criticized for its accuracy/sources/depictions. It's a major reason I don't enjoy Deadlands.

 

You were the one that referenced good writing.

It looks like you believe there is zero daylight between totalitarian shackles and complete freedom to create.

It looks like you believe that inspiration and appropriation are the same thing.

Neither of those is remotely true.

Where we do seem to agree is that making ones work interesting and engaging is critical.

But that's got nothing to do with what the fandom expects to be served up, in fact it's usually the opposite - it's the boundary-pushing works that make use sit and up take notice. None of that needs to be done by shitting on or parasitizing cultures, especially those that have had a raw deal in times past. And at the end of the day, there are relatively few true fantasy RPGs out there, ones that have really started with a clean slate.

Quote from: Motorskills;1078689You were the one that referenced good writing.

It looks like you believe there is zero daylight between totalitarian shackles and complete freedom to create.

It looks like you believe that inspiration and appropriation are the same thing.

Neither of those is remotely true.

Where we do seem to agree is that making ones work interesting and engaging is critical.

But that's got nothing to do with what the fandom expects to be served up, in fact it's usually the opposite - it's the boundary-pushing works that make use sit and up take notice. None of that needs to be done by shitting on or parasitizing cultures, especially those that have had a raw deal in times past. And at the end of the day, there are relatively few true fantasy RPGs out there, ones that have really started with a clean slate.

Greetings!

"Appropriation" is an SJW buzzword that is absolute nonsense. People that sniff and cry and shriek that nonsense are ideological tyrants, attempting to corrupt and censor anyone that they don't like or "approve" of. This is America. Everyone here, as I have said before in a different thread, is a part of everyone else. We all own it, everything, culturally, artistically, philosophically, if not directly at all times through blood heritage. White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American. How many millions of people here, citizens of this country, have some jigsaw-puzzle heritage of one, or more of them, all at once? Anyone who buys into "appropriation" is mentally ill and ideologically corrupt. Either we get to blend and mix and use everything, or just fuck it and burn the place down. Either embrace the American Way, or hit the bricks. People that whine that nonsense need to get a one-way plane ticket to whatever Happy Rainbow Barney paradise that would suit them better. Here, in America, we get to embrace it all, everyone. Anyone trying to keep their toys all to themselves, while playing shrieking mommy-demagogue against anyone they don't like can just circle jerk themselves.

I think "Appropriation" is a fucking control word employed by racist mind-fucked Communists, and the ongoing pushing of the concept is essentially corrupting to the American Way, and needs to be resisted everywhere, and mocked and laughed at relentlessly.

Just my thoughts on "Appropriation."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I agree with Shark on this one. Cultural appropriation is one of the most sorry excuses I have ever heard for people to cry and whine. Culture is something that is shared between people, by definition, and every culture on the planet has borrowed features from other cultures. For example, if the Japanese are not allowed to express parts of their culture that they borrowed from the Chinese, there'd be virtually nothing left.

You guys are talking completely out of your arse, a simple search will throw up plenty of examples of damaging appropriation. Here's a basic primer I found within five seconds.

QuoteFor example, if the Japanese are not allowed to express parts of their culture that they borrowed from the Chinese, there'd be virtually nothing left.

This is such a pisspoor position to take. We're never expected to learn from history, to not repeat mistakes from the past? Nonsense.

We are talking about the development of new RPG products - one of the tools we can use is to look back at earlier iterations, and determine to do better where possible. And ultimately someone that does proper research, even if they are going to use the culture as a springboard for a fantasy RPG, will end up with a better product.

Quote from: Motorskills;1078713You guys are talking completely out of your arse, a simple search will throw up plenty of examples of damaging appropriation.

Nope. Nobody is harmed. People who want to be offended are offended - often on behalf of a culture they don't even belong to. The meme itself is what is harmful.

(I'm willing to consider an exception for use of sacred works - I don't think it should be forbidden, but it is more understandable why people are offended by 'blasphemy'.)

Quote from: Motorskills;1078713You guys are talking completely out of your arse, a simple search will throw up plenty of examples of damaging appropriation. Here's a basic primer I found within five seconds.



This is such a pisspoor position to take. We're never expected to learn from history, to not repeat mistakes from the past? Nonsense.

We are talking about the development of new RPG products - one of the tools we can use is to look back at earlier iterations, and determine to do better where possible. And ultimately someone that does proper research, even if they are going to use the culture as a springboard for a fantasy RPG, will end up with a better product.

....and the examples in the link are damaging how? If a white woman wants to wear African clothes, just like many Africans are wearing Western clothes, what's the damage done? It's basically dividing the world into victims and oppressors. This is a ridiculous world view. By obtaining features from other cultures you get progress. No culture ever came up with more than a fraction of its own content, with the exception of a few that were more or less isolated (like Australia, which is why they were still in the stone age when Europeans came there).

Quote from: Trond;1078718....and the examples in the link are damaging how? If a white woman wants to wear African clothes, just like many Africans are wearing Western clothes, what's the damage done? It's basically dividing the world into victims and oppressors. This is a ridiculous world view. By obtaining features from other cultures you get progress. No culture ever came up with more than a fraction of its own content, with the exception of a few that were more or less isolated (like Australia, which is why they were still in the stone age when Europeans came there).

I have no problem with cultures (or individuals) borrowing and adopting elements from other cultures, for the very reasons you state. It's the manner in which it is done that is important, not least avoiding economic harm.

But ultimately it's about respect.

A while back, a neighbourhood kid knew that I travelled around a lot, asked me what language he should learn in high school.  I told to pick one that interested him, it basically didn't matter - the world communicates in English, and Google Translate will get you through the rest. But it was still important to pick one, to help get into the mindsight of another culture. Try the food, view the art, visit the country, speak to the locals. The important thing is to be open-minded - it will be appreciated.

And I stand by that 100%.

Quote from: Motorskills;1078713You guys are talking completely out of your arse, a simple search will throw up plenty of examples of damaging appropriation. Here's a basic primer I found within five seconds.



This is such a pisspoor position to take. We're never expected to learn from history, to not repeat mistakes from the past? Nonsense.

We are talking about the development of new RPG products - one of the tools we can use is to look back at earlier iterations, and determine to do better where possible. And ultimately someone that does proper research, even if they are going to use the culture as a springboard for a fantasy RPG, will end up with a better product.

Greetings!

Motorskills, really? Do you honestly believe the jello being pumped in that article you linked?

I looked at your article, and read the whole thing.

Motorskills, that is all SJW feminist racist Communist propaganda! It is an open-ended check for anyone (Except for White people, naturally) to be "offended" by virtually anything someone else does, says, wears, eats, or uses. I learned all of that bullshit in my university classes, especially the classes taught by Liberals, or feminists, naturally, in my required fucking "Women's Studies" class.

Guess what? All of that ideology was Communist bullshit then, and it's Communist bullshit *now*. Nothing has changed. As I said earlier, "Cultural Appropriation" is a SJW buzzword purposely created as a control word by Communists, designed to sow and create division, anger, social chaos, and social dissension at every turn. It is yet another "vehicle" for minorities of whatever stripe, shade or colour to scream, shame, criticize, and complain to white people about *whatever*. Oh, and by the way--also conveniently to also get *paid* by the White man, and suck down some of the profit gravy, if any is made by *whatever* In other words, we're going to dress up being given a shakedown so we can profit, and be able to call it "showing cultural respect."

It is all fucking nonsense, Motorskills. Fucking corrosive, unAmerican nonsense.

I can wear some Mexican shirt if I fucking want to. I get to wear a Mexican peasant hat because I *PAID* for it. It's MINE. I can wear it and enjoy it as much as I want. I don't need to talk about whatever the fuck it's "real" meaning is, or it's "cultural significance", or it's fucking deep spiritual meaningfulness to labradors living in Cabo.

By the way--my MEXICAN GIRLFRIEND bought me a shirt, and a Mexican peasant hat, because she liked the way they looked on me. Amazing how most of the people pushing this mindless bullshit, are, ironically, SJW white people. Most of the special "people of colour" couldn't actually give a fuck.

Ok. Yes, Motorskills, all of that, all of the examples in your article are just examples of how this is an ideological vehicle for control. It's a control word used by Communists, racists, Liberals and SJW's to gain attention; shame and demonize people they don't like; generate profits in the form of bribes and payoffs; spread their hateful ideology to others; constantly sow social dissension and racism towards white people; serves as a constant victimhood banner for them to wave constantly.

I reject "Cultural Appropriation" as an insidious, anti-American control word and form of ideology. It's just wrong, Motorskills, on so many levels.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Motorskills;1078719I have no problem with cultures (or individuals) borrowing and adopting elements from other cultures, for the very reasons you state. It's the manner in which it is done that is important, not least avoiding economic harm.

But ultimately it's about respect.

A while back, a neighbourhood kid knew that I travelled around a lot, asked me what language he should learn in high school.  I told to pick one that interested him, it basically didn't matter - the world communicates in English, and Google Translate will get you through the rest. But it was still important to pick one, to help get into the mindsight of another culture. Try the food, view the art, visit the country, speak to the locals. The important thing is to be open-minded - it will be appreciated.

And I stand by that 100%.

But now you're boiling it down to nothing but basic respect. That is not what most proponents of this way of thinking is talking about, or they are misusing the term. So what if some lady wears a dress with vaguely Chinese patterns? I have lived in three countries, and my wife and I come from totally different cultures (and different continents), and we picked up a thing or two here and there. Just look at the little comic that is shown at the beginning of your link. People who whine about cultural appropriation seem to think that there is some sort of damage done by the posh store selling "culturally appropriated" clothes. BTW the clothing sold by the brown lady is almost certainly made with a mix of techniques and patterns, much of it from the West.

I think there's a game of Bingo going on here.

For the record, I'm against the broad position against cultural appropriation that I've seen. It's based on a parallel to Intellectual Property rights, which I also think are overly broad. Still, I think we should be clear what the supposed problem is.

Quote from: Trond;1078718If a white woman wants to wear African clothes, just like many Africans are wearing Western clothes, what's the damage done? It's basically dividing the world into victims and oppressors. This is a ridiculous world view. By obtaining features from other cultures you get progress. No culture ever came up with more than a fraction of its own content, with the exception of a few that were more or less isolated (like Australia, which is why they were still in the stone age when Europeans came there).

To describe the more narrow cases that people had a problem... For example, Native American crafters often sell jewelry, dreamcatchers, and other items. These have been popular with many consumers both for their style and for their cultural significance. However, markets arose where non-native companies would sell knock-off items that copied the designs, and tried to shut out genuine craftsmen from the market by obscuring or deceiving as to what the real traditions are, and who is selling. This was economically harmful, particularly because selling their traditional crafted items has often been vital to poor native economies.

Emotionally, I can understand this. It irks me to think of traditional craftsmen and other creators struggling to get any sort of recognition or to make a living, while non-native people make a tidy profit off of their faux Native American trinkets and works, claiming to be genuine. A parallel in film is Native American actors who couldn't get any work - even playing Native American parts - when white actors would get Native American parts by falsely claiming ancestry and then making up fake mannerisms and traditions. (I think particularly of the Sicilian-American actor who portrayed dozens of prominent Indian parts including the crying Indian in the "Keep America Beautiful" ads.)

That said, I think this is generalized too far in many descriptions of what wrongful appropriation is.