Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2022, 05:47:15 PM
Any of them that has a good GM.

So true. I'd say 4 great games (possibly better than D&D, possibly not, YMMV) are

Runequest - myth-making and world are just detailed enough to get by with the basics, and there's sooooo much stuff out there that you can use, abuse or lose (as Greg says, Your Glorantha May Vary)

Call of Cthulhu. 1st of the  "you get to play a normal person and the monsters are still monsters" games. "Winning means going mad, losing all your friends and being locked away as a dangerous lunatic. Good luck)

Shadows of Esteren - system sucks but the world just oozes gothic greatness.

Paranoia - the ultimate palette cleanser. Not suitable for long campaigns. Awesome fun though.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 28, 2022, 09:36:00 PM
Counter argument: There are a lot of people playing D&D who probably would be better served by storygames or board games.

There is a lot of truth in this...

A whole lot of people would actually enjoy Dungeon World more than D&D mechanically, except for the fact that DW does not say Dungeons and Dragons on the cover...

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 29, 2022, 07:28:33 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on March 29, 2022, 05:51:18 PM
Early D6 is a great and well thought out system.

In my opinion, it would have had a greater impact and longer legs within the hobby if it was properly converted to a count success die-pool system as opposed to adding dice values.

I think such a d6 system like that introduced pre Shadowrun/Vampire could have become very prevalent. But such is 20/20 hindsight.

I somewhat prefer success counting dice pools, but some people hate them for some reason. ...

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 29, 2022, 11:11:15 PM
Counting successes can feel unreliable and swingy. Doesn't mean its a bad system, but thats AN explanation.

In Fairness, when count success systems first hit like Vampire/Shadowrun; They were a mathematical mess. And they made some strong negative first impressions that linger to this day.

The issues with count successes systems are in the past now that more game designers realize that you do actually need to pay attention to probabilities, because your customers surely will!

But negative perceptions linger.

That's why I wish WEG did a count successes conversion. It would have been a solid design, and set a standard for others to emulate.

Was there more problems with WOD pool counting aside of -1 success for 1 scewing overall probabilities?

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 05, 2022, 08:09:02 PM
Was there more problems with WOD pool counting aside of -1 success for 1 scewing overall probabilities?

I want to say something in old WOD was as bad as set the target number of success, the DC of a success, and dice penalties on top of one's subtract and whether or not ones form an exploding die subtract. Good luck setting the difficulty of the check/test appropriately.

QuoteI want to say something in old WOD was as bad as set the target number of success, the DC of a success, and dice penalties on top of one's subtract and whether or not ones form an exploding die subtract. Good luck setting the difficulty of the check/test appropriately.

Yeah I think two axis table: DC as pure difficulty vs. number of success as time restrictions let's say would be suitable.
Maybe count all 1's as COMPLICATIONS that does not influence your passing test or not really, just minor thing.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 05, 2022, 08:28:16 PM

QuoteI want to say something in old WOD was as bad as set the target number of success, the DC of a success, and dice penalties on top of one's subtract and whether or not ones form an exploding die subtract. Good luck setting the difficulty of the check/test appropriately.

Yeah I think two axis table: DC as pure difficulty vs. number of success as time restrictions let's say would be suitable.
Maybe count all 1's as COMPLICATIONS that does not influence your passing test or not really, just minor thing.

StoryPath got the resolution mechanic right, mostly one success to pass and extra success buy off complication and add additional effects and no further rolling to resolve damage in combat. Unfortunately it insists on trying to ruin a good RPG by smearing it with storygame mechanics and ditching some of my favorite mechanics from earlier editions.

There are probably dozens of games that are better than D&D for whatever you want to do... EXCEPT if you want a game that all your friends probably know and like.

Now, even some of my favorites are not necessarily better than D&D. Let's see...

- GURPS is easy and realistic, but has too many skills and the "Charisma/perception" thing doesn't work very well.
- Shadow of the Demon Lord is simpler, faster and, in some ways, cooler than D&D, but at higher levels you're piling up so many boons you can easily get lost.
- I haven't played 13A but from reading it, it becomes too epic, too fast, with too many dice.
- Dungeon World has some cool ideas but doesn't manage to feel like D&D. Too many HP at level 1 and doesn't really get you from zero to hero.
- Runequest/Mythras etc. has a very simple core with more detail than D&D, but still have some issues (the excessive background modifiers IMO).
- Other than that, there are specific "genre" games (CoC, Pendragon, UA, etc.) that beat D&D in genres D&D is not meant to be used.

And then there are games that are HEAVILY inspired by D&D (such as my own and all retroclones), which is not really a fair comparison, but... I prefer some of them over the original versions.

The one thing that beats all old school D&D versions IMO is Delta's Target 20 mechanic. Just make everything simpler and better.

A good GM will run the game that they are "into" and they will convert their players if they do their due-diligence.

My group tends to have gaming inertia. Getting them to try new things is *difficult* unless I come with the hard sell, but I have to have i's and t's dotted and crossed, the ducks lined up, the barrels full o' fish with naked dancers oiled up and ready to go, in order to get them to try something new, over something that I've already established with them as a known quantity.

D&D obviously is the big tent under which all other RPG's are played for most people... but frankly, if you're in this hobby for any length of time, especially these days, you're an absolute fucking fool for not trying some of the cool systems and settings out there right now. There is obvious comfort in familiarity, sure, and I'm not suggesting changing systems/settings beyond a handful, but it's always good for a GM to shake things up. That means you have to be more hungry than your players, as well as more curious.

D&D Fantasy as a trope is already better served by other systems - and it's well emulated according to what most people like. You want a little more "verisimilitude" - Runequest/Mythas, you want a little more tactical? go Dungeonworld or 13th Age or something. You want more scalability and flexibility with less rulesbloat? Go Savage Worlds. You want things more streamlined and Basic - go OSR.

In the end - you're still doing Fighters, Thieves, Mages and Clerics dungeondiving/Hexcrawling/tactical-combat simulating to your hearts glee. It still gonna take a Good GM to win them over.

D&D is its own thing. I don't think it does anything in 5e particularly good that other systems might not specialize in doing better - depending on the emphasis you're looking for. I don't even think 5e does D&D Fantasy particularly better than older editions. But it has the massive weight of its brand to cast its net vastly further and wider to draw people in and hold them. It's the GM's jobs, if they're *really* interested, in luring those players out to new vistas. And that takes skill, and/or a lot of frustration and dissatisfaction with what is being served AND understanding WHY, then having the wherewithal to outline those needs and put it into action using another system to mitigate those perceived issues.

Whether those issues are objective or subjective is irrelevant. You're the GM.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 28, 2022, 11:28:19 AMMork Borg has been covered before, and it ranges from excessively woke to excessively nihilistic.

Mork Borg being dark, satanic, and nihilistic, it does sound like it should be a contradiction somewhere, but somehow I think you're completely right that it's woke. I'd still like to hear how though?

Quote from: Trond on April 06, 2022, 11:07:26 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 28, 2022, 11:28:19 AMMork Borg has been covered before, and it ranges from excessively woke to excessively nihilistic.

Mork Borg being dark, satanic, and nihilistic, it does sound like it should be a contradiction somewhere, but somehow I think you're completely right that it's woke. I'd still like to hear how though?

From our infamous Redlist:

" Uses OGL to shoot down authors they disagree with. Supports BLM and bailing out rioters. "

Woke and dark are not contradictory because woke itself is contradictory. Woke thrives on principles of subversion and destruction before alternating to manic utopian-ism.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2022, 01:38:00 PM

Quote from: Trond on April 06, 2022, 11:07:26 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 28, 2022, 11:28:19 AMMork Borg has been covered before, and it ranges from excessively woke to excessively nihilistic.

Mork Borg being dark, satanic, and nihilistic, it does sound like it should be a contradiction somewhere, but somehow I think you're completely right that it's woke. I'd still like to hear how though?

From our infamous Redlist:

" Uses OGL to shoot down authors they disagree with. Supports BLM and bailing out rioters. "

Oh wow. As someone who saw the riots up close that's a hard no from me.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 06, 2022, 02:29:29 PM
Woke and dark are not contradictory because woke itself is contradictory. Woke thrives on principles of subversion and destruction before alternating to manic utopian-ism.

Quote from: G.K. Chesterton, link=https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1695/1695-h/1695-h.htm
This is a vast philosophic movement, consisting of an outer and an inner ring. You might even call the outer ring the laity and the inner ring the priesthood. I prefer to call the outer ring the innocent section, the inner ring the supremely guilty section. The outer ring—the main mass of their supporters—are merely anarchists; that is, men who believe that rules and formulas have destroyed human happiness. They believe that all the evil results of human crime are the results of the system that has called it crime. They do not believe that the crime creates the punishment. They believe that the punishment has created the crime. They believe that if a man seduced seven women he would naturally walk away as blameless as the flowers of spring. They believe that if a man picked a pocket he would naturally feel exquisitely good. These I call the innocent section."
...

"Naturally, therefore, these people talk about 'a happy time coming'; 'the paradise of the future'; 'mankind freed from the bondage of vice and the bondage of virtue,' and so on. And so also the men of the inner circle speak—the sacred priesthood. They also speak to applauding crowds of the happiness of the future, and of mankind freed at last. But in their mouths ... in their mouths these happy phrases have a horrible meaning. They are under no illusions; they are too intellectual to think that man upon this earth can ever be quite free of original sin and the struggle. And they mean death. When they say that mankind shall be free at last, they mean that mankind shall commit suicide. When they talk of a paradise without right or wrong, they mean the grave.

"They have but two objects, to destroy first humanity and then themselves. That is why they throw bombs instead of firing pistols. The innocent rank and file are disappointed because the bomb has not killed the king; but the high-priesthood are happy because it has killed somebody."

  --G.K. Chesterton, The Man Who Was Thursday

Greetings!

The Mork Borg game is very interesting and inspiring. Some have said that the game is really a kind of "Artistic Coffee-table Book". I somewhat disagree with that assessment. As a DM, I find that the game "system", such as it is, is indeed very quick and simple. I can see how the rules as presented are "Compete" in the sense that they provide the framework for everything that Mork Borg is primarily intended to do. The rules, however, are not what some would call or certainly desire as being "Comprehensive". Mork Borg is not designed to be a heavy, comprehensive game system. Light, quick, and simple. So, I think the rules provided in the main rulebook deliver on that premise and goal.

I own the main Mork Borg rulebook, and one supplement, "Roads to Damnation".

I think I paid $25 bucks for the rulebook, and $15 bucks for the "Roads to Damnation" supplement. Less than $50 bucks total though. "Roads to Damnation" is a supplement dealing with travel in the game world, random encounters, monsters, exploring ruins, and several mini-scenarios.

The Mork Borg game seems very much "Doom Metal" and is all about strange, doomed characters seeking to survive in an apocalyptic world that is doomed to come to a fiery end, actually much sooner than later. The artwork is intriguing and inspiring. The book's themes, rules, and art, combined, present lots of interesting and inspiring elements for a DM to play the game with their group, or to be inspired at using such elements in their own game world. Mork Borg is dark, Heavy Metal, apocalyptic. The classes in the game for example, are Fanged Deserter, Gutter-born Scum, Esoteric Hermit, Wretched Royalty, Heretical Priest, Occult Herbmaster. There are more than a few elements in the rulebook that are hilarious as well. Dark, funny, over the top doomed, grim, and based. I would say it is well-worth purchasing. I am glad that I bought the Mork Borg book and a supplement. Both of which have been inspiring, entertaining, humorous, and darkly fun. And Heavy Metal.

That is my assessment and recommendation.

I would also add that Professor Dungeon Master also recommends Mork Borg--and the good Professor Dungeon Master is, to the best of my knowledge, neither woke, or an atheist or Satanist. I'm pretty confident Professor Dungeon Master is a Christian. Professor Duneon Master is a long-time DM and fan of D&D and RPG's. He runs the Dungeoncraft Youtibe channel. With his Deathbringer Chaos Warrior miniature. *Laughing* Dungeoncraft is an awesome YouTube channel, too. Professor Dungeon Master presents a weekly program on his channel, typically each being interesting and fun commentary and discussion for 20 minutes or less.

As for Twitter and whatever--I don't do Twitter, Facebook, or anything like that. I am simply presenting what I have gained from the rulebook itself, one game supplement, and as mentioned, one YouTube recommendation. (Dungeoncraft program does an episode discussing Mork Borg and recommends the Mork Borg book).

So, there you go. SHARK lights up a pipe and enjoys some fresh brewed coffee. Good stuff.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 06, 2022, 02:44:58 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 06, 2022, 02:29:29 PM
Woke and dark are not contradictory because woke itself is contradictory. Woke thrives on principles of subversion and destruction before alternating to manic utopian-ism.

Quote from: G.K. Chesterton, link=https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1695/1695-h/1695-h.htm
This is a vast philosophic movement, consisting of an outer and an inner ring. You might even call the outer ring the laity and the inner ring the priesthood. I prefer to call the outer ring the innocent section, the inner ring the supremely guilty section. The outer ring—the main mass of their supporters—are merely anarchists; that is, men who believe that rules and formulas have destroyed human happiness. They believe that all the evil results of human crime are the results of the system that has called it crime. They do not believe that the crime creates the punishment. They believe that the punishment has created the crime. They believe that if a man seduced seven women he would naturally walk away as blameless as the flowers of spring. They believe that if a man picked a pocket he would naturally feel exquisitely good. These I call the innocent section."
...

"Naturally, therefore, these people talk about 'a happy time coming'; 'the paradise of the future'; 'mankind freed from the bondage of vice and the bondage of virtue,' and so on. And so also the men of the inner circle speak—the sacred priesthood. They also speak to applauding crowds of the happiness of the future, and of mankind freed at last. But in their mouths ... in their mouths these happy phrases have a horrible meaning. They are under no illusions; they are too intellectual to think that man upon this earth can ever be quite free of original sin and the struggle. And they mean death. When they say that mankind shall be free at last, they mean that mankind shall commit suicide. When they talk of a paradise without right or wrong, they mean the grave.

"They have but two objects, to destroy first humanity and then themselves. That is why they throw bombs instead of firing pistols. The innocent rank and file are disappointed because the bomb has not killed the king; but the high-priesthood are happy because it has killed somebody."

  --G.K. Chesterton, The Man Who Was Thursday

The quote is probably 100 years old. Who is Chesterton talking about? Communists?