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Name Four Tabletop RPGs That Are Better Than Dungeons & Dragons

Started by jeff37923, March 28, 2022, 10:57:38 AM

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Shrieking Banshee

Quote from: Shasarak on March 31, 2022, 03:53:39 PMI look at it the other way: Static settings let you know that nothing your character does matters because the setting just reboots to the start again.

Static settings are designed with 'Here is what is going on, how do you wanna change it?'. More often then not, they are written with YOU being the main changer in mind.
Active setting generally suffer from 'Level 65 God King Is planning an attack on an army of 22 Demon Princes, how will you stand and watch?'. Active settings with assumed proactive PCs just tend to wind down (Dark Sun, Golarion) as the active threats are taken out.

APN

My four:

1) Tunnels and Trolls for Dungeon Crawling. Plays faster, more flexible, easier to get hold of (apart from the Deluxe Edition) and into (again, apart from the Deluxe edition) and it's got an entirely different feel to D&D whilst doing sorta pretty much the same thing.

2) MERP for D&D but more interesting. It's the crits, see? Once you've dungeon crawled with MERP rules in Karameikos and Mystara as a whole it's much less interesting to go back to D&D. Fast, deadly combat, a little crunchy on character creation (organisation of the book could be better) and if you don't like Tolkien (I don't) there's a fair bit to ignore but it can be done, and done fun.

3) DC Heroes 3rd Edition/Blood of Heroes 2e. Yeah, forget that the art for BoH is gash and the layout/text wall-ness of 3e DCH makes your eyes close, this covers street to cosmic better than any supers game before or after. Not perfect. I house ruled it to ditch the tables and switch to D12s and it just zips along in play by post. Our campaign is in year 13 in October, no signs of stopping. I tried other Supers games (All the Marvel games, Golden Heroes, Mutants and Masterminds etc) and some were good, some great, but none surpassed the DC Heroes rules set for me. Needs a retro clone. If you are buying it and can get it for a reasonable price, 2nd Edition Boxed set is the sweet spot. Blood of Heroes best rules but that art... ack!

4) Star Wars 1e. The REUP version is probably refined, better, tweaked, sharpened up and a great production from fans (and free!) but we got the most play from 1e. It broke for us when the PCs hit 7D + in all the combat stuff (Dodge, Blaster etc) and I had to start coming up with different colours of Stormtrooper who could shoot straight. There's only so much space terrorist stuff you can do before you re-tread old ground and it was our go to for a while but Star Wars is dead to me now. The game I'll always have fond memories of.

I had to trim the list down to just four but if I played D&D again it would be BECMI, without doubt. It's better than any other version of the game (for me) and I loved some of the other versions.

Mistwell

I like and enjoy Gloomhaven, but it's in no way an RPG of any kind. It's just a board game, with a lot of tactile play, and some written story to read depending on what broader choices you make about what to do. I do recommend it, though there is no reason to buy the very expensive main game when the much less expensive Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion gives you everything you need (and more) for about a quarter of the price. There are a LOT of parts to the game too. Like, so many parts that third party sellers have made 3d printed organizers for the parts. This is not all the parts but it gives a good representative example of the parts (which excludes the boards):



Jaws of the Lion uses map pages out of a binder of maps, which I like. I believe the full game uses individual maps:



Oh and noteworthy, the game can be played entirely solo. And it remains fun solo, though still better with friends.

VisionStorm

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 31, 2022, 04:37:28 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 31, 2022, 03:53:39 PMI look at it the other way: Static settings let you know that nothing your character does matters because the setting just reboots to the start again.

Static settings are designed with 'Here is what is going on, how do you wanna change it?'. More often then not, they are written with YOU being the main changer in mind.
Active setting generally suffer from 'Level 65 God King Is planning an attack on an army of 22 Demon Princes, how will you stand and watch?'. Active settings with assumed proactive PCs just tend to wind down (Dark Sun, Golarion) as the active threats are taken out.

The metaplot destroyed Dark Sun and the Revised & Expanded boxed set was complete crap because of it (plus all the uninspired crap that got added that wasn't part of the original). And I still think that Dark Sun was the greatest D&D setting ever created, but when I say that, I'm talking about the original boxed set and initial supplements that truly expanded on the OG boxed set. Everything that came after was complete crap. Even the novels sucked after the first two or three books (though, I barely remember them now and lost them to a termite infestation so I can't reread em).

Shrieking Banshee

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 31, 2022, 07:06:09 PMThe metaplot destroyed Dark Sun.

Yup. Either a setting becomes 'Solved' or hopeless, as things become cyclical and go nowhere. Metaplots suck for TRPGs

Wrath of God

Dunno. I think Golarion did it relatively well with it's Adventure Pathes (though of course fact they were taking just half-a-year each was often really dumb considering 1-20 leveling of characters and scope of danger). Some dangers were extinguished, new were introduced, and TBH it's not like you need to obsess about those small change in canon when running own Golarion, you can easily cherry pick own changes fitting what your characters done.

It's not static film universe with one canon. So if some players take 2nd edition of such game and start to whine their own exploits were not used... they're just clearly have very wrong perspective about RPGs.
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Ratman_tf

The trick with Dark Sun is to set any new campaign just before or just after Kalak's death, and ignore all the published metaplot after that. (Almost) anything a GM comes up with for their home campaign will be better than what was printed. Or at least break even.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

migo

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 31, 2022, 07:06:09 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 31, 2022, 04:37:28 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 31, 2022, 03:53:39 PMI look at it the other way: Static settings let you know that nothing your character does matters because the setting just reboots to the start again.

Static settings are designed with 'Here is what is going on, how do you wanna change it?'. More often then not, they are written with YOU being the main changer in mind.
Active setting generally suffer from 'Level 65 God King Is planning an attack on an army of 22 Demon Princes, how will you stand and watch?'. Active settings with assumed proactive PCs just tend to wind down (Dark Sun, Golarion) as the active threats are taken out.

The metaplot destroyed Dark Sun and the Revised & Expanded boxed set was complete crap because of it (plus all the uninspired crap that got added that wasn't part of the original). And I still think that Dark Sun was the greatest D&D setting ever created, but when I say that, I'm talking about the original boxed set and initial supplements that truly expanded on the OG boxed set. Everything that came after was complete crap. Even the novels sucked after the first two or three books (though, I barely remember them now and lost them to a termite infestation so I can't reread em).

What was good with DS Revised is re-adjusting the Strength scores. Percentile Strength really messed with the 5-20 ability score range.

Wrath of God

QuoteThe trick with Dark Sun is to set any new campaign just before or just after Kalak's death, and ignore all the published metaplot after that. (Almost) anything a GM comes up with for their home campaign will be better than what was printed. Or at least break even.

Now without any knowledge about DS metaplot, that seems like good solution for any setting - pick moment you prefer.
More editions moving things through - well fine you have more moments to choose.

And since moment you start playing rest of metaplot simply does not matter.
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Reckall

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 28, 2022, 10:57:38 AM
What the title suggests. The link below is what CRACKED.com thinks they are, but I've only heard of two of them.

https://www.cracked.com/article_33173_4-tabletop-rpgs-that-are-way-better-than-dd.html?fbclid=IwAR37r6hPMz-RLssG60m-xV2t43GzwSSJfLe-j8FB8PMKUSdQbonHnxtFS3o

"If you think Lord of the Rings sucks, then maybe you've been turned off of D&D entirely, because c'mon, the game is a direct rip off of Tolkien's masterwork."

The depth of the research is astounding.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

migo

Quote from: Reckall on April 01, 2022, 06:35:12 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 28, 2022, 10:57:38 AM
What the title suggests. The link below is what CRACKED.com thinks they are, but I've only heard of two of them.

https://www.cracked.com/article_33173_4-tabletop-rpgs-that-are-way-better-than-dd.html?fbclid=IwAR37r6hPMz-RLssG60m-xV2t43GzwSSJfLe-j8FB8PMKUSdQbonHnxtFS3o

"If you think Lord of the Rings sucks, then maybe you've been turned off of D&D entirely, because c'mon, the game is a direct rip off of Tolkien's masterwork."

The depth of the research is astounding.

While obviously D&D drew inspiration from a number of sources and not just Tolkien, there are also elements that are incredibly obviously taken from Tolkien and couldn't come from anywhere else. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings? That's straight up Tolkien. Tolkien's influence on D&D gets both overplayed and underplayed.

Armchair Gamer

Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 07:21:57 AM
While obviously D&D drew inspiration from a number of sources and not just Tolkien, there are also elements that are incredibly obviously taken from Tolkien and couldn't come from anywhere else. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings? That's straight up Tolkien. Tolkien's influence on D&D gets both overplayed and underplayed.

   Mike Mornard, one of Gygax's players, described OD&D as "Leiber and Vance garnished with shaved Tolkien." Given that Gygax's use of Tolkien tended to be superficial, reluctant, and umsympathetic, I'd call it 'dehydrated shaved Tolkien,' but the point stands. :)

migo

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 01, 2022, 07:30:12 AM
Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 07:21:57 AM
While obviously D&D drew inspiration from a number of sources and not just Tolkien, there are also elements that are incredibly obviously taken from Tolkien and couldn't come from anywhere else. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings? That's straight up Tolkien. Tolkien's influence on D&D gets both overplayed and underplayed.

   Mike Mornard, one of Gygax's players, described OD&D as "Leiber and Vance garnished with shaved Tolkien." Given that Gygax's use of Tolkien tended to be superficial, reluctant, and umsympathetic, I'd call it 'dehydrated shaved Tolkien,' but the point stands. :)

Tolkien is also the most obvious especially if you're looking at Basic D&D that most people started with. The makeup of the adventuring party is straight up Tolkien. And while Leiber is the inspiration for the Thief class, it's easy to forgive people for thinking that's from the Hobbit, with Bilbo being a 'Burrahobbit'. The only element that is front and center that really doesn't look like Tolkien is the Cleric class. With a slight tweak, if you dropped it and had the Elf using Cleric spells instead of Magic-User and it would suddenly look more like Tolkien again - with Frodo only able to get healing from the Elves at Rivendell.

You had to read Appendix N to really see where the inspiration all came from, and back in the day the AD&D DMG was supposed to be DM's eyes only. With that Gygax's choice to split the game up like that is also responsible for that misconception.

DM_Curt

" Name Four Tabletop RPGs That Are Better Than Dungeons & Dragons"

They're only thinking of 5e D&D.

"Better" is a subjective word, and with a competent GM, you could have a better time that with a mediocre 5e DM with.....
0e/1e/2e/3e D&D. Maybe 4e D&D. (It's not exactly traditional D&D, but it's a game)

Castles and Crusades.
Call of Cthulu
Paranoia.
Warhammer Fantasy


And many others, some of which are already listed by other posters in this thread.

Pat

Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 07:21:57 AM
Quote from: Reckall on April 01, 2022, 06:35:12 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 28, 2022, 10:57:38 AM
What the title suggests. The link below is what CRACKED.com thinks they are, but I've only heard of two of them.

https://www.cracked.com/article_33173_4-tabletop-rpgs-that-are-way-better-than-dd.html?fbclid=IwAR37r6hPMz-RLssG60m-xV2t43GzwSSJfLe-j8FB8PMKUSdQbonHnxtFS3o

"If you think Lord of the Rings sucks, then maybe you've been turned off of D&D entirely, because c'mon, the game is a direct rip off of Tolkien's masterwork."

The depth of the research is astounding.

While obviously D&D drew inspiration from a number of sources and not just Tolkien, there are also elements that are incredibly obviously taken from Tolkien and couldn't come from anywhere else. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings? That's straight up Tolkien. Tolkien's influence on D&D gets both overplayed and underplayed.
Tolkien invented humans? Silly interpretations aside, I think you're overstating the degree of congruence. The four races are the iconic ones who made up the Fellowship, but when you get into the specifics, they're very different.

There are certainly Tolkienesque elements in D&D, but I think the tendency is to overstate rather than understate them, simply because Tolkien's work is so widely known and recognizable. Cracked saying "the game is a direct rip off of Tolkien's masterwork" is ridiculously wrong.