QuoteI don't understand how a mystery that you as a GM and your group gets to resolve, is worse then somesort of pre-planned thing where things just get safer and more boring.
Golarion as a kitchen sink was like a continent of problems. Each country made no sense, but existed to be a catalyst for adventure. Resolve those problems and you just have a patchwork of boring nonsense.

And how many of those can you resolve.
Like you had 24 APs for Pathfinder. Probably like 18 solved big threats, and remodeled some bigger situation on continent. That's not as much ultimately - but more importantly when you start to play - you don't take Golarion after 24 AP's - you take fresh one and then mold it to your taste by starting own timeline.

About first - because I generally dislike in wordlbuilding even kitchensinkey - just leaving some BIG MYSTERY of setting than authors clearly had no idea about - this is Aroden's death for Golarion.
If I want to add to setting I'm gonna add and carve my own mystery - I don't need such pidgeonholing.

Quote from: Zalman on April 02, 2022, 02:59:10 PM
GM: "Everyone, roll up a mystery-solving granny."

Me:

Done.   

A.I.M. has created and deployed G.O.F.S.M. the Granny Only For Solving Mysteries and now Thor or the Thing will have to fight her at some point I presume.



" Odin's beard! It rolled right up to me! It's grasping mine ankle in its mechanical claw and accuseth me of murdering someone! Could this vile contraption be a weapon left on Earth since ancient times by the Warrior Kree that has slept through the millennia and only now somehow been unearthed and reactivated by...the scampish antisocial vibrations of litterbugs and casual users of profanity? The noble son of Asgard must needs restrain his mighty fury for now! Begone demon! I know not of this Carl the organic grocer that though dost e'en now insist I have sent to the domain of dreaded Hela! If this be not mischief and thou canst prove thy  claims then summon the police! Thor hath nothing to hide! "

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 02, 2022, 06:49:47 PMAnd how many of those can you resolve.

However much you like. A RPG world isn't a novel. JJ abrams isn't selling you a mystery box. I do not understand why a mystery, intentionally unanswered, in an interactive media, bothers you so much.

Answered mysteries and pre-planned adventures aren't pidgeonholes, but a open ended mystery is?

Yeah sort of that my take.
Because I can cherry pick them, and make my own, while this weird mystery in a middle of setting gonna bother me.
Just because I can invent own solution for that as GM... it's kinda not satysfying. I'd rather either use published material and tweak for my team... or... invent some mystery from get go and drop it into setting on my own. Either specific stuff or just free space to build my own shit - no black holes of shroedingerian uncertainity.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 02, 2022, 07:21:38 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 02, 2022, 06:49:47 PMAnd how many of those can you resolve.

However much you like. A RPG world isn't a novel. JJ abrams isn't selling you a mystery box. I do not understand why a mystery, intentionally unanswered, in an interactive media, bothers you so much.

Answered mysteries and pre-planned adventures aren't pidgeonholes, but a open ended mystery is?

Pigeonholing might not be the right term for it, but I find the advantage of a published setting or adventure is that players of different groups can share the same experience and talk about it. So if it's a mystery that's answered for the GM, and just the players have to figure it out in play, it is that shared experience. If you have a mystery that's hinted at, but not answered, you might as well have something that the GM created from scratch, because there won't be that shared experience. Then you'd rather be talking about a fully homebrew campaign, or something that just happened in a sandbox.

Precisely. I can mess up with setting on my own, not need to have left purposeful holes to fill by authors.
Especially when if I play multiple campaigns - I will carve own alternate timeline anyway.

I would really like setting that is shown across thousand years of evolution without given assumption of start 0 - no GM and players pick start 0 and anything later is non-canon for them, simple as it is. And just as so - setting evolution across editions and APs is not that important unless you have some weird parasocial relation with canon in RPG.

And I rather mess with existing features than see places that are bland just for sake of it.
Like Sembia in old FR - WHATEVER LAND FOR GM SKETCHES is like utterly non-inspiring compared to still fairly bland Sembia as merchant republic in shadow of former Netheril.

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 03:38:22 AMPigeonholing might not be the right term for it, but I find the advantage of a published setting or adventure is that players of different groups can share the same experience and talk about it.

But I see the advantage of RPGs as a customized experience. Not as bootleg MMOs.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 03, 2022, 05:00:50 AM
Precisely. I can mess up with setting on my own, not need to have left purposeful holes to fill by authors.

Il be honest this just sounds so...bizzare to me. So utterly bizzare I don't know where to begin to comprehend it.

QuoteIl be honest this just sounds so...bizzare to me. So utterly bizzare I don't know where to begin to comprehend it.

What can I say for me it's like most obvious thing.
And look I totally get mysteries they left around for new AP or Society Year. I'm just pissed about one that's clearly meant to be empty place for GM.
Srsly if I wanna setting with empty places for GM I'll take map of Kazakhstan, interpose hexmap on it, and start to randomly roll for content

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 03, 2022, 12:03:19 PM

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 03:38:22 AMPigeonholing might not be the right term for it, but I find the advantage of a published setting or adventure is that players of different groups can share the same experience and talk about it.

But I see the advantage of RPGs as a customized experience. Not as bootleg MMOs.

But if you're paying money, you don't want to have to homebrew it yourself anyway. You want to get what you paid for. If you make it from scratch, you can, and then don't pay anything at all. If you want to change it, that's also fine, but if you're spending money you should get something complete.

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 04:20:07 PMBut if you're paying money, you don't want to have to homebrew it yourself anyway. You want to get what you paid for. If you make it from scratch, you can, and then don't pay anything at all. If you want to change it, that's also fine, but if you're spending money you should get something complete.

I personally see a 'framework' of the world as the most difficult and time consuming part to develop. Conclusions to story threads are the funnest bit, especially if I don't have to work everything else around them.

Worlds built around a specific resolution become more and more barren the further off track from this plan. While 'Adventure hook worlds' have the 'detail' spread around much more evenly.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 31, 2022, 04:37:28 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 31, 2022, 03:53:39 PMI look at it the other way: Static settings let you know that nothing your character does matters because the setting just reboots to the start again.

Static settings are designed with 'Here is what is going on, how do you wanna change it?'. More often then not, they are written with YOU being the main changer in mind.
Active setting generally suffer from 'Level 65 God King Is planning an attack on an army of 22 Demon Princes, how will you stand and watch?'. Active settings with assumed proactive PCs just tend to wind down (Dark Sun, Golarion) as the active threats are taken out.

If you look at the Realms aka the longest lasting metaplot in DnD history you never run out of active threats.

The same is true with the second longest metaplot aka Dragonlance.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on March 31, 2022, 07:30:05 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 31, 2022, 07:06:09 PMThe metaplot destroyed Dark Sun.

Yup. Either a setting becomes 'Solved' or hopeless, as things become cyclical and go nowhere. Metaplots suck for TRPGs

Everyone knows that the Metaplot did not destroy Dark Sun - it was the Halflings (and TSR going insolvent but I repeat myself)

QuoteIf you look at the Realms aka the longest lasting metaplot in DnD history you never run out of active threats.

The same is true with the second longest metaplot aka Dragonlance.

Yup. Alas dunno if Golarion can work that way. Something new demands itself to be introduced.
But then most of FR great catastrophes opening each edition were not well accepted by fans, so maybe truly Paizo gonna produce APs till there is no serious problem to solve.

I just skimmed through 2nd edition of Tal'Dorei setting and clearly Mercer did something like that to amend for routine murderhoboing of duergars and goblins in Vox Machina, now all humanoid races lives in peace in love in cosmopolitan cities, and all conflicts between orcs, goblins and other races were solved by empathy, understanding and apparently full fertility between all races including Dragonborn.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 01, 2022, 04:29:01 AM
The trick with Dark Sun is to set any new campaign just before or just after Kalak's death, and ignore all the published metaplot after that. (Almost) anything a GM comes up with for their home campaign will be better than what was printed. Or at least break even.

The single thing I did like about Revised was killing off Abalech-Re and leaving Raam a hotbed of chaotic upheaval. In every other "Death of a Sorcerer King" scenario, some semblance of order within he respective city-state was established with each death.

I want to use the original rules for the Dark Sun setting, and include that ruler's death to set up a Raam campaign.

The four games that I think are better than D&D are:

1. SWADE
2. Shadowrun (any edition, but preferably 4E)
3. Talislanta (any edition, but preferably 2E)
4. Atlantis (Bard Games)

Quote from: Dropbear on April 03, 2022, 08:27:21 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 01, 2022, 04:29:01 AM
The trick with Dark Sun is to set any new campaign just before or just after Kalak's death, and ignore all the published metaplot after that. (Almost) anything a GM comes up with for their home campaign will be better than what was printed. Or at least break even.

The single thing I did like about Revised was killing off Abalech-Re and leaving Raam a hotbed of chaotic upheaval. In every other "Death of a Sorcerer King" scenario, some semblance of order within he respective city-state was established with each death.

I want to use the original rules for the Dark Sun setting, and include that ruler's death to set up a Raam campaign.

Maybe "all" was too harsh. I'm sure DMs can salvage interesting bits and pieces out of the metaplot.