To be fair Liam has been consistently clear when he doesn't know something and that he's only speaking for his own, which is the only thing I ask in matters like this. He also doesn't think it's #DriveThruRPGs place to remove the book, and it's not something he was pushing for. He's become persona non grata in certain communities such as the #RpgPub, which is something he's completely aware of, and makes engaging with him in any meaningful manner more difficult. And as someone who has dealt with demographic grifters he doesn't strike me as one, at least yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if the radical elements on all sides push him in that direction.

As for the Moriori 'myth', the argument is that the Māori who were forced to flee their home didn't kill or enslave all the Moriori. And I can only think that if the same argument were applied to the #Holocaust it'd be tossed out as antisemitic propaganda.

Quote

He's become persona non grata in certain communities such as the #RpgPub, which is something he's completely aware of, and makes engaging with him in any meaningful manner more difficult.

This is wholly untrue. I personally thanked him for his participation and have made public statement about how good it was that he came, as have many others, including other mods on the pub.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 06, 2023, 08:58:28 AM
He's become persona non grata in certain communities such as the #RpgPub

Yeah, that's complete bullshit.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 06, 2023, 08:58:28 AM
To be fair Liam

I find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

QuoteI find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

If he's a professional 'consultant' on this kind of thing, he's not going about it in a very professional way. Going on a twitter rant, knowing it was going to pull in a fuck-load of likes, retweets and bandwagon dogpiling isn't the way to go advertising for business as a cultural consultant. Unless he's basing his approach on the Tony Soprano school of waste management consulting. And even Tony Soprano had the fucking courtesy to approach the poor schmuck he was going to shake down first and give him the option of paying the protection money.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel on February 06, 2023, 01:32:46 PM

QuoteI find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

If he's a professional 'consultant' on this kind of thing, he's not going about it in a very professional way. Going on a twitter rant, knowing it was going to pull in a fuck-load of likes, retweets and bandwagon dogpiling isn't the way to go advertising for business as a cultural consultant. Unless he's basing his approach on the Tony Soprano school of waste management consulting. And even Tony Soprano had the fucking courtesy to approach the poor schmuck he was going to shake down first and give him the option of paying the protection money.

Yeah, I wouldn't hire a consultant who behaved like a mewling toddler... But I think all the 'scolds like that sort of faux outrage. As they can all gather around the bonfire and beat their chests while working themselves up into a woke scold frenzy. Aww... bless. 

in his first post, he mentioned

QuoteProfessionally I am a principle advisor for a large public agency advising on implementation of policy and governance in a culturally appropriate manner, ensuring we adhere to our commitments and obligations to Tangata Whenua and the broader public. Outside of the day job I free lance as a cultural advisor, TTRPG creator and podcaster under my brand Toa Tabletop.

so, my guess is that he has some training in the field, and does the same thing on the side. He has mentioned that he does not work on products he has criticized publicly.

Not doubting his credentials or what he does in his day job. I'm saying that his twitter offensive does his professional credentials no favors at all. He knew he was gonna attract attention and pull in the Righteous Mob. The effect was planned. And to me professionals don't act like that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 11:50:35 AM
But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

Mythic Polynesia purports to describe the real-world myths, gods, spirits, and creatures of Polynesian myth. From its marketing blurb:

QuoteExamining the traditions, myths, gods, spirits and creatures of the Great Ocean, the Polynesian islands are brought alive and presented through the Mythras game system. The book includes an exhaustive overview of Oceanian life, the tribes, their magic, and their complex history and politics.

As such, I think it's reasonable to critique it if it does a bad job in presenting those. Like if someone came out with an "authentic medieval" book that does a piss-poor job of representing the medieval culture it purports to. From what I've read, Liam's critiques have been backed up as correct as regarding the Maori and Moriori that he is familiar with (and who are specifically named and described in the book). Whether he's a good person or not doesn't change whether his critiques are correct.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 02:53:00 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 11:50:35 AM
But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

Mythic Polynesia purports to describe the real-world myths, gods, spirits, and creatures of Polynesian myth. From its marketing blurb:

QuoteExamining the traditions, myths, gods, spirits and creatures of the Great Ocean, the Polynesian islands are brought alive and presented through the Mythras game system. The book includes an exhaustive overview of Oceanian life, the tribes, their magic, and their complex history and politics.

As such, I think it's reasonable to critique it if it does a bad job in presenting those. Like if someone came out with an "authentic medieval" book that does a piss-poor job of representing the medieval culture it purports to. From what I've read, Liam's critiques have been backed up as correct as regarding the Maori and Moriori that he is familiar with (and who are specifically named and described in the book). Whether he's a good person or not doesn't change whether his critiques are correct.

But you missed the fact that they already have a disclaimer on page 9 in the pdf.

"Disclaimer
Mythic Polynesia is a roleplaying supplement, not a textbook. The emphasis has very much been on what creates the most interesting setting and less on historical accuracy, although the original source material has been adhered to as much as possible. The most egregious (and deliberate) inaccuracies result from combining non-contemporaneous cultures and events. No disrespect to real world cultures is intended."

So Liam's criticisms are bollox (in my opinion) because of the contents of their disclaimer:
"less on historical accuracy"
"No disrespect to real world cultures is intended"

Sure, he can have an opinion. But who gives a shit? His opinions are meaningless as far as I'm concerned when it comes to elf games of pretend and imagination.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 11:50:35 AM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 06, 2023, 08:58:28 AM
To be fair Liam

I find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

ALL Kultural Kommisars ARE grifters, by definition.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 04:31:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 02:53:00 PM
I think it's reasonable to critique it if it does a bad job in presenting those. Like if someone came out with an "authentic medieval" book that does a piss-poor job of representing the medieval culture it purports to. From what I've read, Liam's critiques have been backed up as correct as regarding the Maori and Moriori that he is familiar with (and who are specifically named and described in the book). Whether he's a good person or not doesn't change whether his critiques are correct.

But you missed the fact that they already have a disclaimer on page 9 in the pdf.

"Disclaimer
Mythic Polynesia is a roleplaying supplement, not a textbook. The emphasis has very much been on what creates the most interesting setting and less on historical accuracy, although the original source material has been adhered to as much as possible. The most egregious (and deliberate) inaccuracies result from combining non-contemporaneous cultures and events. No disrespect to real world cultures is intended."

So Liam's criticisms are bollox (in my opinion) because of the contents of their disclaimer:
"less on historical accuracy"
"No disrespect to real world cultures is intended"

I don't put too much stock on disclaimers in general. By itself, it's just weasel-wording. For example, lots of games have disclaimers like "make these rules your own" and/or "the GM can override the rules". That doesn't mean that no one can complain if the game's mechanics are shitty and unworkable. Having weasel words of "we're not perfect" doesn't mean that one can't complain about inconsistencies, poor editing, etc.

Of course it's an RPG book and not a textbook. I would have read it that way regardless of the weasel words, nor would I assume that it is 100% accurate. It still claims that it adheres as much as possible to the sources, and that the most egregious inaccuracies are just deliberate shifting of time periods.


As a consumer, I find that such a disclaimer paragraph has almost no effect on how I regard the product as a whole. The marketing, presentation, and the content are still the same. Your post implies that the disclaimer completely changes what the product is. i.e. If they hadn't put in such a disclaimer, then it would be fine to roast the book for any misrepresentation - but if they do put in the disclaimer, then no criticism can be made. To me, the disclaimer is at most a minor shift in how I regard the product as a whole.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel on February 06, 2023, 02:42:24 PM
Not doubting his credentials or what he does in his day job. I'm saying that his twitter offensive does his professional credentials no favors at all. He knew he was gonna attract attention and pull in the Righteous Mob. The effect was planned. And to me professionals don't act like that.

I don't know much about Liam's credentials either to be honest. So he could be indeed a valid person. Although, the way he conducted himself seems a bit bizarre.

However, there is a certain contingency on Twitter and the like - who claim to be 'experts' on X or Y. Or safety/sensitivity consultants (lol). Some seem to have nothing more than belonging to a certain nation or subgroup. Does that make them a valid source? The fek it does in my opinion. I mean, I certainly know quite a bit about Irish history and mythology. But that does NOT make me a cultural expert even though I've been born and raised here.

I'd expect a valid consultant to have an academic degree or at least have years of working in the field.

Safety or Sensitivity... What does that even mean? For that lark I'd expect a significant threat (which there is not in RPGs). And again, even if I played into those silly notions I'd expect someone with some kind of psychology degree (or something in conflict management).

I keep seeing the term 'harm' thrown about. Where's all this 'real-world harm' done by these elf-game's source books? This is a bogeyman IMO just to drum up fear so the woke scolds can try to enforce their hybrid-style censorship.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 06:08:10 PM
As a consumer, I find that such a disclaimer paragraph has almost no effect on how I regard the product as a whole.

That's fine and you're entitled to do so. But as a consumer myself I don't take 'fantasy' source books too seriously even if and when they have a disclaimer or not. I don't need one.

You can call their disclaimer 'weasel words' if you wish - But I see your arguments just as vacuous and irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned the only thing that counts is creating a good and fun sourcebook and TDM delivered (for me anyway).

Having the disclaimer is just the icing on the cake regarding the authenticity of your (or anyone else's) arguments. By having one they can easily absolve themselves from any mistakes that you think they have made. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. All books and games are open to criticism but no one has to take that seriously. But when people start calling for boycotts and bannings then I just think that's exceedingly petty.

So I'm hoping TDM has not taken this product down from D.T. But at least it's still available to buy on their website and lulu. And I highly recommend the PDF!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 06:23:49 PM
Having the disclaimer is just the icing on the cake regarding the authenticity of your (or anyone else's) arguments. By having one they can easily absolve themselves from any mistakes that you think they have made. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. All books and games are open to criticism but no one has to take that seriously. But when people start calling for boycotts and bannings then I just think that's exceedingly petty.

So I'm hoping TDM has not taken this product down from D.T. But at least it's still available to buy on their website and lulu. And I highly recommend the PDF!

To be clear, I'm not calling for a boycott or ban. I've only read the previews for the book and not the full book, and I am not critiquing it myself. I have read Liam's critique, as well as Séadna's fact-checking on RPGPub that has supported Liam's points. From the threads I've read, neither Liam nor Séadna have called for a boycott or ban of the game.

I'm sure that there are others out there on the Internet who are calling for a boycott or ban, though, and I disagree with them.

Criticizing the game isn't the same thing as calling for a boycott or ban.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 06:10:41 PM
I keep seeing the term 'harm' thrown about. Where's all this 'real-world harm' done by these elf-game's source books? This is a bogeyman IMO just to drum up fear so the woke scolds can try to enforce their hybrid-style censorship.

I agree they are just elf-game source books, and I dislike the language like "harm" as well.  However, this cuts both ways. I say the same thing about left-leaning RPGs like Coyote & Crow. I don't think RPGs are important for forming people's political leanings. It's more that people gravitate towards games that they find comfortable. RPGs are highly personalized, so people will mostly make of games what they will. (At least adults -- I'm more cautious about RPGs for kids.)