TheRPGSite

Have you guys been checking this comedy show out on TBP and Twatter?

I'm a bit of a fan of the Design Mechanism. But apparently, there are a number of dweebs not too happy at all with this release. Must be very few, considering that the product is selling rather well in the Drivthru charts. :)

The gist of the problem, as far as I can tell, is that some 'no mark' on Twitter called Liam had a bit of a hissy fit and TBP all sang Kum ba yah to support him.

Apparently, the Maori tribes have been given the dreaded character bonuses (or some shit). Like in Oriental adventures. Thus playing on stereotypes that can do 'harm' in the real world. Uh... Please show me some facts and figures to back that up? I'll wait...

I'm sure that the Maori are now on the verge of collapse after this Huge elf-game release. Which is sure to grace the NY Times top sellers list. LOL

But that's not all... Apparently, the mob started to demand that the product be taken down immediately and an explanation (and presumably) an apology to be given straight away - To this molecule-sized mob.

But to the Design Mechanism's credit, it appears they haven't budged one iota and have remained silent (at this point at least). That's the best thing you can do, imo.

Apparently, the 'ikkle mob is not too happy that some comments were 'removed' from Drivthru that criticized the supposed 'rrrrrrrrrhhacist' elements in the product. That made me laugh. :)

Anyway, is anyone aware of this tiny tantrum?

PS - And Apparently tDM are now guilty as charged because they have remained silent. You gotta' love that inevitable emotional blackmail trick from the micro-mob. And just how much business tDM will lose. LOL - Just look at the charts! :)

Yeah, apparently some people caught bans at TBP for pointing out that most of the villains were lizardman tribes or something and got accused of spreading coded racism or some such nonsense (because apparently to the woke lizard people = Maori) and banned even more for questioning the ridiculousness of that ban.

I also agree, just acting like the impotent woke whiners don't even exist is probably the most effective (and infuriating to the woke) means of dealing with it. Particularly as the relevance of TBP continues to wane relative to other ttrpg related means of discourse.

Yeah, I noticed the thread a few days ago on one of my periodic visits to the Infractions thread there.  It struck me as yet another example of SJWs trying to out-left each other. They go to great pains to demonstrate how liberal they are, but you can never be liberal enough so they get attacked by their fellows, who circle like sharks just waiting for such occasions so they can jump in and demonstrate how pure and virtuous they are.

Can you imagine the horror of existence if people like this ever gained total control of society?

But please...

Do a Haka  (https://youtu.be/BI851yJUQQw)for the offended Maori people who risk death because of this game. Do it for them. They really look like they'd care.

Quote from: I on December 14, 2022, 09:39:33 AM
Yeah, I noticed the thread a few days ago on one of my periodic visits to the Infractions thread there.  It struck me as yet another example of SJWs trying to out-left each other. They go to great pains to demonstrate how liberal they are, but you can never be liberal enough so they get attacked by their fellows, who circle like sharks just waiting for such occasions so they can jump in and demonstrate how pure and virtuous they are.

Can you imagine the horror of existence if people like this ever gained total control of society?

The French Revolution called...

These people are flipping out over a game of imagination, a book!

They could create their own game about Polynesia or go crazy on the internet. They choose crazy.

I looked up the twitter thread and when I got to the part about gender roles I immediately realized that this "critic" is woke af.

I don't doubt that pre-colonial Maori culture was a lot more egalitarian between the sexes than the invading Christians, but this guy conflates that with modern Eurocentric woke gender nonsense. Far be it for me to tell him how to practice his own culture, but many others (primarily non-woke women and bipoc) have pointed out that woke views of this gender nonsense is no less colonialist and has nothing to do with indigenous gender norms.

As far I've been able to discern without taking courses on the subjects, pre-colonial indigenous cultures existed on continuums between egalitarian (no gender roles, men, women and homosexuals were all equal and could take any profession) and patriarchal/misogynistic/homophobic (strict gender roles, where women and homosexuals were considered "non-men" and limited in their choice of professions). In all cases they recognized biological sex as a salient feature of the human condition, simply because women are the only sex who can give birth. In more egalitarian cultures women may have been socially equal to men and the language may lack grammatical gender (to the point where historical or mythical figures' sex is rarely specified or considered important enough to specify), but they still recognized that men and women were realities that couldn't be overcome by wishful thinking.

Altho I do find it rather lazy that Design Mechanism couldn't have hired ethnic maori (and other Polynesians) to consult on the project to add that extra bit of authenticity. Maori people are still around today and use the internet to communicate. It wouldn't be hard to put out an ad or reach out to cultural experts. I'm sure some of them would love to educate others on their culture and inspire an interest in learning about their culture.

I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.

What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care. What about the legion of games that have the British Empire as the bad guys, that is so offensive to my culture. The number of times I have read something about Modern Britain or Europe that some American has written and they obvious haven't even been here on holiday. And don't get me on castle, would it be so hard to have even looked a real castles plan before putting some knocked up map of a building that has no idea of what a defensive wall is, or that keep entrances are on the 1st floor (ie the one above the ground for you Americans).

Stupid woke leftist take all the fun out of life.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
Altho I do find it rather lazy that Design Mechanism couldn't have hired ethnic maori (and other Polynesians) to consult on the project to add that extra bit of authenticity. Maori people are still around today and use the internet to communicate. It wouldn't be hard to put out an ad or reach out to cultural experts. I'm sure some of them would love to educate others on their culture and inspire an interest in learning about their culture.

I don't see why that's necessary. This is a game, not a research paper or political document.

A game like this is closer to a travelogue. An author visits a culture, imagines some stuff, and writes about it. It will never be a completely authentic rendition of that culture, but it could be evocative, interesting, and fun. We can still enjoy travel literature, right?

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care.

No kidding! I'm not a huge fan of anime, but I've seen enough to know that the Japanese don't give a fuck about rendering a European culture in any way they want.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
Altho I do find it rather lazy that Design Mechanism couldn't have hired ethnic maori (and other Polynesians) to consult on the project to add that extra bit of authenticity.

Why should they though? Why spend extra cash on something that you don't technically need? Did they do it with all their other products? What makes this one so 'special', other than some crybaby having a tantrum on Twitter? If the bed-wetter hadn't mentioned this on Twitter nobody would have even brought it up I'd wager.

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.
.

Yeah, I was really happy about that. I honestly thought that they might have caved in, but so far it's business as usual. LOL Fair play!

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AM
These people are flipping out over a game of imagination, a book!

They could create their own game about Polynesia or go crazy on the internet. They choose crazy.

Exactly...

Funny, I said pretty much the exact same thing on another forum. Needless to say, it didn't go down very well.  ;D

Quote from: tenbones on December 14, 2022, 09:47:38 AM
But please...

Do a Haka  (https://youtu.be/BI851yJUQQw)for the offended Maori people who risk death because of this game. Do it for them. They really look like they'd care.

Indeed! Zero fucks given I'd say.  ;D

I wonder why part of "Mythic" in the title of the book don't they understand?

I guess logic is hard when they have cognitive dissonance.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AMThey could create their own game about Polynesia

Surely you jest...these fucking clowns don't create anything, much less actually play any of these games. The only game they actually play is winning internet points by virtue signaling as hard as possible to other morons. As far as Maori go, do any of them care? How many Maori were complaining on Twitter or rpg.net about this? Or is it just a bunch of self-loathing white liberals?

I haven't yet read Mythic Polynesia or the Twitter discussion, so no comments on that yet. If anyone has links, that's nicer than having to search.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
As far I've been able to discern without taking courses on the subjects, pre-colonial indigenous cultures existed on continuums between egalitarian (no gender roles, men, women and homosexuals were all equal and could take any profession) and patriarchal/misogynistic/homophobic (strict gender roles, where women and homosexuals were considered "non-men" and limited in their choice of professions). In all cases they recognized biological sex as a salient feature of the human condition, simply because women are the only sex who can give birth. In more egalitarian cultures women may have been socially equal to men and the language may lack grammatical gender (to the point where historical or mythical figures' sex is rarely specified or considered important enough to specify), but they still recognized that men and women were realities that couldn't be overcome by wishful thinking.

I'm also not an expert, but I've read about a number of cultures, and I wouldn't agree about that. There are a number of cultures that have what would be considered transgender people - like the kliba or hijra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)) in pre-colonial India, or the Winkte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winkte) in pre-colonial Lakota. The former are described in Pundit's "Arrows of Indra" game, as follows,

QuoteIn the default setting, there are biological males who take on the role of a "third gender", the "kliba" gender, who from a relatively early age did not fit into the standard expectations of men in the culture, and instead are raised (and follow the standards of dress and behavior) as women. A Gm could thus certainly decide that for his campaign, there could be a similar gender role for women who take on the roles of men; and there is at least one contextual story (the legend of Shikhandi) that involves the daughter of a king being raised as a boy and becoming a formidable warrior.

The "kliba" gender are, in any case, an accepted part of Bharata society. In addition to being dancers and concubines, it would not be uncommon for a Kliba to become a Siddhi as the "third gender" were often considered graced with magic power.

Among Polynesians, there's the Tahitian class of people called the Māhū (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81h%C5%AB), though I don't know much about them.

I'd also caution against saying that strong gender roles being the same as patriarchal/misogynistic. For example, I know the Haudenosaunee (aka Iroquois) had strong gender roles, but women had significant "separate but equal" power. They were matrilineal, and women had their own councils that could determine important clan functions.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
Altho I do find it rather lazy that Design Mechanism couldn't have hired ethnic maori (and other Polynesians) to consult on the project to add that extra bit of authenticity. Maori people are still around today and use the internet to communicate. It wouldn't be hard to put out an ad or reach out to cultural experts. I'm sure some of them would love to educate others on their culture and inspire an interest in learning about their culture.

Yeah. Hiring someone who knows intimately about a living culture is straightforward and seems like a no-brainer for a serious publication, though for free or very small press games it might not be practical. Even back in 1985, TSR's original Oriental Adventures credited Japanese gamers who were consulted to critique the manuscript.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 14, 2022, 08:43:54 AM
Yeah, apparently some people caught bans at TBP for pointing out that most of the villains were lizardman tribes or something and got accused of spreading coded racism or some such nonsense (because apparently to the woke lizard people = Maori) and banned even more for questioning the ridiculousness of that ban.

I also agree, just acting like the impotent woke whiners don't even exist is probably the most effective (and infuriating to the woke) means of dealing with it. Particularly as the relevance of TBP continues to wane relative to other ttrpg related means of discourse.

Buried lede: there are still people on TBP who know stupid racism arguments are stupid and are willing to say so.

I figured they were all banned or just left decades ago (I'm not banned, but I can't remember the last time I bothered to log in).

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.

What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care. What about the legion of games that have the British Empire as the bad guys, that is so offensive to my culture. The number of times I have read something about Modern Britain or Europe that some American has written and they obvious haven't even been here on holiday. And don't get me on castle, would it be so hard to have even looked a real castles plan before putting some knocked up map of a building that has no idea of what a defensive wall is, or that keep entrances are on the 1st floor (ie the one above the ground for you Americans).

Stupid woke leftist take all the fun out of life.

The first floor isn't the first floor over there???  :o

For real?

Fuck, I really did not know that.

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.

What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care. What about the legion of games that have the British Empire as the bad guys, that is so offensive to my culture. The number of times I have read something about Modern Britain or Europe that some American has written and they obvious haven't even been here on holiday. ...

Yes you should.

Absolutely hold them to their own standards.

At the very least it will be entertaining as hell watching their mental gymnastics as they squirm around from having their tactics thrown right back in their face...

Quote from: RebelSky on December 14, 2022, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.

What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care. What about the legion of games that have the British Empire as the bad guys, that is so offensive to my culture. The number of times I have read something about Modern Britain or Europe that some American has written and they obvious haven't even been here on holiday. And don't get me on castle, would it be so hard to have even looked a real castles plan before putting some knocked up map of a building that has no idea of what a defensive wall is, or that keep entrances are on the 1st floor (ie the one above the ground for you Americans).

Stupid woke leftist take all the fun out of life.

The first floor isn't the first floor over there???  :o

For real?

Fuck, I really did not know that.

A backwards people obsessed with the idea of an unnumbered "ground floor"...

Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 12:11:49 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AMThey could create their own game about Polynesia

Surely you jest...these fucking clowns don't create anything

This is the single most important thing.

People who create nothing are the ones doing this. People who create things are too busy creating, even if their creation is a "response" or a "correction."

Ed Simbalist and Wilf Backhaus thought the "medieval" part of early D&D was a crock. Did they bitch about it (well, yeah, some in APAs probably), but their principle reaction was the first medieval authentic RPG (sorry Pundit): Chivalry & Sorcery.

And you know what, later when they remarked about other games, especially Ed, I gave them a listen because I knew they were willing to do the work.

The idiots on TBP? Not so much.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 14, 2022, 05:26:42 PM
Ed Simbalist and Wilf Backhaus thought the "medieval" part of early D&D was a crock. Did they bitch about it (well, yeah, some in APAs probably), but their principle reaction was the first medieval authentic RPG (sorry Pundit): Chivalry & Sorcery.

I'd say most games up until the 2000s were essentially responses to D&D, and ways to fix things the author thought were done incorrectly. The OSR sort of went the other way and tried to reimplement D&D, albeit with changes that amount to house rules. That said, I will reiterate: these clowns do NOT PLAY roleplaying games, unless you consider posting to a messageboard pseudo-anonymously a roleplaying game.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 14, 2022, 05:26:42 PM
People who create nothing are the ones doing this. People who create things are too busy creating

Exactly this!

Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 12:11:49 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AMThey could create their own game about Polynesia

Surely you jest...these fucking clowns don't create anything, much less actually play any of these games. The only game they actually play is winning internet points by virtue signaling as hard as possible to other morons. As far as Maori go, do any of them care? How many Maori were complaining on Twitter or rpg.net about this? Or is it just a bunch of self-loathing white liberals?

It was a half jest. Don't call me Shirley.

You're absolutely right. There's a special kind of person who rages about this kind of work to make themselves feel important, and this person is rarely the subject of the work. There are countless examples of people (not of the culture) wearing kimonos, making tacos, and wearing dreads (though not necessarily at the same time) being shamed by random losers online and then being complimented by people of that culture. There are also countless examples of people from different cultures finding it annoying when white liberals take offense on their behalf. Yet they don't stop because the feeling of rage and self-importance is too intoxicating. So, the best course of action is to ignore or point and laugh.

I'm glad to see it is selling. In a sane world everyone would be happy to see a non-pseudo European setting, instead in our clown-filled world such a thing is attacked.

I would like to see more settings from people who actually grew up in those cultures tho. Speed reading some textbooks is no substitute for life experience and growing up learning traditional stories.

Did you know that the Maori are one of the few indigenous cultures that is experiencing a revival after colonization? Maori is an official language of New Zealand and even non-Maori are learning it as a symbol of nationalistic pride.

I believe the Maori are the only ones to fight the British to a stand-still. They should be proud.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 08:38:16 PM
I would like to see more settings from people who actually grew up in those cultures tho.

I'd agree... More people should be doing games that bring a unique experience to gaming.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 14, 2022, 10:06:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 08:38:16 PM
I would like to see more settings from people who actually grew up in those cultures tho.

I'd agree... More people should be doing games that bring a unique experience to gaming.

As long as they don't make it anti-white person, like Coyote & Crow.

Quote from: RebelSky on December 14, 2022, 10:10:19 PM
As long as they don't make it anti-white person

Yep! I wouldn't tolerate those double standards or hypocrisy.

At some point don't we get a chicken-and-egg problem?  We don't have enough representation of [today's ethnicity], but the only people allowed to write about or portray them are people of [today's ethnicity]?

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AM
These people are flipping out over a game of imagination, a book!

They could create their own game about Polynesia or go crazy on the internet. They choose crazy.

They did the same over Bionicle and "appropriating" culture. And theres so many more.

But of course its perfectly fine for them to do so much worse. Some of the art in Radiant Citadel is just disgustingly steryotypical. Par for the course for the woke.

Quote from: RebelSky on December 14, 2022, 03:32:21 PM
The first floor isn't the first floor over there???  :o

We are not just separated by a large pond, but also by height as well.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 14, 2022, 05:52:44 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 14, 2022, 05:26:42 PM
People who create nothing are the ones doing this. People who create things are too busy creating

Exactly this!

Hows it go
    Those that can, do
    those that can't do, teach
    those that can't teach, criticise

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 14, 2022, 08:56:10 PM
I believe the Maori are the only ones to fight the British to a stand-still. They should be proud.

You mean apart from the Zulu, Afghanistan, Gurkha.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on December 14, 2022, 10:58:21 PM
At some point don't we get a chicken-and-egg problem?  We don't have enough representation of [today's ethnicity], but the only people allowed to write about or portray them are people of [today's ethnicity]?

I, for one, would like to see more ancient Egyptian games written by people who actually rubbed elbows with the pharaohs to give it more authenticity.

Wow... Here's a huge and very handy coincidence. You can actually hire Liam as a 'cultural consultant'.

Who'd of thunk it?

https://www.toatabletop.com/services

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 15, 2022, 06:36:10 AM
Wow... Here's a huge and very handy coincidence. You can actually hire Liam as a 'cultural consultant'.

Who'd of thunk it?

https://www.toatabletop.com/services

QuoteI can offer support from this perspective specifically as well as the broader context of being a product and victim of colonization.

How the fuck can someone make this statement seriously as a POST ON THE INTERNET? "I'm a victim of colonization, let me tell you how much my culture has been destroyed and eroded by those evil white devils using my $1500 iPhone to record videos to post on TikTok."

Get a life, retards.

The same white devils who have decided to adopt Maori language as a symbol of national pride? Does he not realize how lucky and privileged he is? New Zealand is the only country on Earth where an indigenous culture is being promoted by the colonizers!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 15, 2022, 06:36:10 AM
Wow... Here's a huge and very handy coincidence. You can actually hire Liam as a 'cultural consultant'.

Who'd of thunk it?

https://www.toatabletop.com/services

This guy is fascinating. Apparently, he's created a wild west game, of all possible settings.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2022, 10:50:39 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 15, 2022, 06:36:10 AM
Wow... Here's a huge and very handy coincidence. You can actually hire Liam as a 'cultural consultant'.

Who'd of thunk it?

https://www.toatabletop.com/services

This guy is fascinating. Apparently, he's created a wild west game, of all possible settings.

LOL I'd love to hear his take on the Native American Indians.  ;D

Quote from: Brad on December 15, 2022, 09:14:52 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 15, 2022, 06:36:10 AM
Wow... Here's a huge and very handy coincidence. You can actually hire Liam as a 'cultural consultant'.

Who'd of thunk it?

https://www.toatabletop.com/services

QuoteI can offer support from this perspective specifically as well as the broader context of being a product and victim of colonization.

How the fuck can someone make this statement seriously as a POST ON THE INTERNET? "I'm a victim of colonization, let me tell you how much my culture has been destroyed and eroded by those evil white devils using my $1500 iPhone to record videos to post on TikTok."

Get a life, retards.

I mean the guy has got hustle, I'll give him that lol.

If anything ripping people off in the rp market is far too niche for his grifter skills.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 14, 2022, 08:43:54 AM
Yeah, apparently some people caught bans at TBP for pointing out that most of the villains were lizardman tribes or something and got accused of spreading coded racism or some such nonsense (because apparently to the woke lizard people = Maori) and banned even more for questioning the ridiculousness of that ban.

To be clear, it was not about mythic Polynesia, but Monster Island, and it was clarifying that the "savages" were lizard people and not human, and that it mentioned you could switch them to human if you wanted, and that I was specifically not commenting on the racism of that. Also that the nationality of the names might be viewed as Europeans as they were puns on European names, but no actual nationality or skin color was discussed.

Mythic Polynesia doesn't have any lizard people in it I think (still need to finish reading).

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 14, 2022, 06:54:59 AM
Have you guys been checking this comedy show out on TBP and Twatter?

I'm a bit of a fan of the Design Mechanism. But apparently, there are a number of dweebs not too happy at all with this release. Must be very few, considering that the product is selling rather well in the Drivthru charts. :)

The gist of the problem, as far as I can tell, is that some 'no mark' on Twitter called Liam had a bit of a hissy fit and TBP all sang Kum ba yah to support him.

Apparently, the Maori tribes have been given the dreaded character bonuses (or some shit). Like in Oriental adventures. Thus playing on stereotypes that can do 'harm' in the real world. Uh... Please show me some facts and figures to back that up? I'll wait...

I'm sure that the Maori are now on the verge of collapse after this Huge elf-game release. Which is sure to grace the NY Times top sellers list. LOL

But that's not all... Apparently, the mob started to demand that the product be taken down immediately and an explanation (and presumably) an apology to be given straight away - To this molecule-sized mob.

But to the Design Mechanism's credit, it appears they haven't budged one iota and have remained silent (at this point at least). That's the best thing you can do, imo.

Apparently, the 'ikkle mob is not too happy that some comments were 'removed' from Drivthru that criticized the supposed 'rrrrrrrrrhhacist' elements in the product. That made me laugh. :)

Anyway, is anyone aware of this tiny tantrum?

PS - And Apparently tDM are now guilty as charged because they have remained silent. You gotta' love that inevitable emotional blackmail trick from the micro-mob. And just how much business tDM will lose. LOL - Just look at the charts! :)

And they will be told, that their Silence is Violence!!!  Oh the Harm, that will surely come!!!

Wow, just wow... Oh, the terrible harm, that this RPG product is inflicting, I can't even.

I'm not even playing Mythras ATM, but I went ahead and bought it, just out of spite.  ;D

Yes, that guy is truly a pathetic grifter, I wouldn't hire him to clean my cat's litter box.

P.S.
First post, hello to everybody!

Quote from: Zaxxon on December 16, 2022, 08:08:19 AM
Wow, just wow... Oh, the terrible harm, that this RPG product is inflicting, I can't even.

I'm not even playing Mythras ATM, but I went ahead and bought it, just out of spite.  ;D

Indeed! New Zealand is about to implode into a blood bath over this seminal and highly accurate product.  :)

I love the way a few gimps on TBP are planning to remove 'their products' from DT as a protest and boycott tDM. Right... And you are who exactly? Oh, that's right, nobody at all.  ;D

Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 05:40:17 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 14, 2022, 05:26:42 PM
Ed Simbalist and Wilf Backhaus thought the "medieval" part of early D&D was a crock. Did they bitch about it (well, yeah, some in APAs probably), but their principle reaction was the first medieval authentic RPG (sorry Pundit): Chivalry & Sorcery.

I'd say most games up until the 2000s were essentially responses to D&D, and ways to fix things the author thought were done incorrectly. The OSR sort of went the other way and tried to reimplement D&D, albeit with changes that amount to house rules. That said, I will reiterate: these clowns do NOT PLAY roleplaying games, unless you consider posting to a messageboard pseudo-anonymously a roleplaying game.

Agreed, although in the 90s we started getting responses to WoD.

That's normal in any creative field dominated by one or two big players. Much of the other players are responding in some way to the bigs. It is the nature of influences.

But I was after the idea that it used to be if D&D pissed you off, you wrote a new game and said "I've done it right" instead of demanding the people actually working and putting out product bow to your whims.

Interesting... I see the book is now no longer available on drivethru. I still have access to my download but it's no longer for sale digitally.

I'm guessing that they are about bow to political correctness after all. A real shame if they do...

I might be remembering wrongly, but didn't TDM already how previously? They supported BLM or something.

Quote from: mudbanks on February 02, 2023, 07:44:21 AM
I might be remembering wrongly, but didn't TDM already how previously?

I've no idea, to be honest... But in regards to this, it looks like they are bending the knee. I can't see why else it would be removed from drivthru's library.

It's always the way, one little bitch moans about something then the company starts a shakin' and suddenly they get cold feet. We will probably see a 'we got it wrong apology' in the near future.

Not that they care, but I won't give them another dime if they do. C'est la vie...

Other reasons include DTRPG took it down themselves, which seems possible, considering how it's still up in the tdm store.

Quote from: Raleel on February 02, 2023, 08:20:22 AM
Other reasons include DTRPG took it down themselves, which seems possible, considering how it's still up in the tdm store.

Possible... But I don't think DT is quite that censorious (in general). I had noticed that the physical book is still on their site but I think this could just be a way of clearing stock. EDIT: But searching again the pdf is still on sale on their site (which I'm happy about!).

I guess we will see soon enough. But certainly, I'll tip my cap to TDM if they have not given in. But if that's the case, then I think that would bring drivethru's censorship policy to a whole new level.  :(

DT have taken it down.
TDM have not backed down.
It is still available on Lulu and other places.

Quote from: zincmoat on February 02, 2023, 08:43:18 AM
DT have taken it down.
TDM have not backed down.
It is still available on Lulu and other places.

Like I said, if that is the case then I salute them.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:32:22 AM
But if that's the case, then I think that would bring drivethru's censorship policy to a whole new level.  :(

I haven't bought anything from then since they made Venger ban/rewrite his  Rainbow Crystal Utopia.

Quote from: zincmoat on February 02, 2023, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:32:22 AM
But if that's the case, then I think that would bring drivethru's censorship policy to a whole new level.  :(

I haven't bought anything from then since they made Venger ban/rewrite his  Rainbow Crystal Utopia.

That was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

I remember they also banned some other chap for having ACAB somewhere in a book. Apparently, Tenkar cried to them or some shit.

Quote from: mudbanks on February 02, 2023, 07:44:21 AM
I might be remembering wrongly, but didn't TDM already how previously? They supported BLM or something.

The guide to woke companies mentions they had a video saying if you vote for a 'particular candidate' (who never got named in the thread) not to buy their books, but they 'learned their lesson' and pulled it down.

As far as taking a knee for supporting BLM - Schwalb entertainment did, and they're still on the green list.

Quote from: zincmoat on February 02, 2023, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:32:22 AM
But if that's the case, then I think that would bring drivethru's censorship policy to a whole new level.  :(

I haven't bought anything from then since they made Venger ban/rewrite his  Rainbow Crystal Utopia.

For me it was when they took down Desborough's GamerGate card game because of pressure from Evil Hat.

Quote from: migo on February 02, 2023, 09:49:08 AM

For me it was when they took down Desborough's GamerGate card game because of pressure from Evil Hat.
[/quote]

That was pretty shitty. I'd forgotten about that...

Seriously, how insecure and spitful does someone actually have to be in order to get a silly spoof card game pulled? What a retard.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 09:47:08 AM

Quote from: zincmoat on February 02, 2023, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:32:22 AM
But if that's the case, then I think that would bring drivethru's censorship policy to a whole new level.  :(

I haven't bought anything from then since they made Venger ban/rewrite his  Rainbow Crystal Utopia.

That was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

I remember they also banned some other chap for having ACAB somewhere in a book. Apparently, Tenkar cried to them or some shit.

There IS another way, you could sell/buy on the freespeech gamestore called BigGeekEmporium

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

Finally an excuse to post a Maori Metal video!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 09:47:08 AMThat was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

Apparently, there IS another way!

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen)

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 02, 2023, 05:53:28 PM
Finally an excuse to post a Maori Metal video!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 09:47:08 AMThat was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

Apparently, there IS another way!

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen)

Great vid! Really metal and inspiring!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2023, 06:52:28 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 02, 2023, 05:53:28 PM
Finally an excuse to post a Maori Metal video!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 09:47:08 AMThat was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

Apparently, there IS another way!

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen)

Great vid! Really metal and inspiring!

I didn't know how much I needed this in my life.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2023, 02:03:18 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 09:47:08 AM

Quote from: zincmoat on February 02, 2023, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:32:22 AM
But if that's the case, then I think that would bring drivethru's censorship policy to a whole new level.  :(

I haven't bought anything from then since they made Venger ban/rewrite his  Rainbow Crystal Utopia.

That was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

I remember they also banned some other chap for having ACAB somewhere in a book. Apparently, Tenkar cried to them or some shit.

There IS another way, you could sell/buy on the freespeech gamestore called BigGeekEmporium

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I'm aware of BGE. It's a great concept! Buuuuut they don't have much stuff that I want. Or the stuff I do want I've already bought previously (like a lot of Red Room's material).

I hope more publishers use it in the future.

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 02, 2023, 05:53:28 PM
Finally an excuse to post a Maori Metal video!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 09:47:08 AMThat was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

Apparently, there IS another way!

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/biggeekemporium-new-free-speech-game-store/?topicseen)

Cool vid... But a bit too emo for my taste.

Jake "the Muss" Heke ;D

Seriously these films are fantastic - especially the first one. Love this fight scene.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:58:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2023, 02:03:18 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 09:47:08 AM

Quote from: zincmoat on February 02, 2023, 09:04:34 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:32:22 AM
But if that's the case, then I think that would bring drivethru's censorship policy to a whole new level.  :(

I haven't bought anything from then since they made Venger ban/rewrite his  Rainbow Crystal Utopia.

That was pathetic alright... Unfortuntely they are the only game in town. So I buy from them regularly. If there was another way I'd be all over it.

I remember they also banned some other chap for having ACAB somewhere in a book. Apparently, Tenkar cried to them or some shit.

There IS another way, you could sell/buy on the freespeech gamestore called BigGeekEmporium

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I'm aware of BGE. It's a great concept! Buuuuut they don't have much stuff that I want. Or the stuff I do want I've already bought previously (like a lot of Red Room's material).

I hope more publishers use it in the future.

Yeah I would sign up with BGE but besides their small catalogue, their interface is worse than DTRPG's, and that's saying a lot!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:58:18 PMI'm aware of BGE. It's a great concept! Buuuuut they don't have much stuff that I want.

What kind of gamer are you? We're legendary at buying gaming stuff we don't need, and quite good at buying stuff we didn't even want!

What about that one campaign that you were going to run, but didn't run, and probably won't run? You need a new book for that one!  8)

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 02, 2023, 08:58:18 PMI hope more publishers use it in the future.

Agreed, but that requires the current publishers find sales on BGE.

Quote from: mudbanks on February 02, 2023, 09:34:01 PMYeah I would sign up with BGE but besides their small catalogue, their interface is worse than DTRPG's, and that's saying a lot!

Sign up and complain about their interface. They need to hear it from potential customers. They need to hear "I want to give you money, but your tech boogers wound my soul" 

Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

I'd welcome it as long as it's not something stupid and woke like Coyote and Crow, and more along the lines of FGU's Bushido, which is just a good fantasy treatment of feudal Japan.

Quote from: I on February 03, 2023, 07:04:30 AM
like Coyote and Crow,

Indeed... Anything but that C&C pigswill!

Quote from: I on February 03, 2023, 07:04:30 AM
and more along the lines of FGU's Bushido, which is just a good fantasy treatment of feudal Japan.

Bushido is just the best ....

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

Cool. There's a free preview available here:

https://www.koboasetting.com/

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 11:47:45 AM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

Cool. There's a free preview available here:

https://www.koboasetting.com/

Cool if you like woke dredge:

Laresians = Europeans, who are of course evil colonialists thankfully defeated by the indigenous peoples who (some) have no concept of sex and/or gender.

The stunning and brave indigenous peoples have forms, not races because raicismism, and all the evil entities they encounter fight are OF COURSE due to the invaders raping the land.

The Koboans (Stunning, brave and peaceful indigenous peoples in perfect harmony with the land and who never killed another human nor made war before the EVIL Laresians arrived) are so magical now that they can even change their sex, even if they don't have a concept of such.

I'm betting 50& are gay, 50% are transgender, 100% are stunning and brave people of colour.

Of course there are also transracial, ejem transform, ejem what the fuck do you call it? People.

The Sialgot, are not natives, but being stunning and brave people of colour travelled there to defeat the evil colonizers and then proceeded to colonize a part of the continent, but this is good colonization because not white.

For the monsters they rolled on some random tables and went: Yep, that's good enough.

Like I said, it's woke dredge.

At least I don't see a screed demanding huwhite people to buy but not play their shit.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 12:40:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 11:47:45 AM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

Cool. There's a free preview available here:

https://www.koboasetting.com/

Cool if you like woke dredge

Just to clarify, I haven't read the preview yet, so that wasn't a comment on the material. Just that it's a new RPG with a free preview available.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 12:40:17 PM
Laresians = Europeans, who are of course evil colonialists thankfully defeated by the indigenous peoples who (some) have no concept of sex and/or gender.

Cool... that sounds right up my alley. Plus, I really hate us crackas'.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:02:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 12:40:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 11:47:45 AM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

Cool. There's a free preview available here:

https://www.koboasetting.com/

Cool if you like woke dredge

Just to clarify, I haven't read the preview yet, so that wasn't a comment on the material. Just that it's a new RPG with a free preview available.

That's fine, I'm sorry if I assumed you had.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2023, 01:07:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 12:40:17 PM
Laresians = Europeans, who are of course evil colonialists thankfully defeated by the indigenous peoples who (some) have no concept of sex and/or gender.

Cool... that sounds right up my alley. Plus, I really hate us crackas'.

As a stunning and Brave Maya (people of colour) I hate you too :P

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 01:10:52 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2023, 01:07:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 12:40:17 PM
Laresians = Europeans, who are of course evil colonialists thankfully defeated by the indigenous peoples who (some) have no concept of sex and/or gender.

Cool... that sounds right up my alley. Plus, I really hate us crackas'.

As a stunning and Brave Maya (people of colour) I hate you too :P

;D

These guys must love 'setting the record straight'. I can just imagine the creators all huddled together thinking, 'oooh how can we portray these vile honkies who were all still metaphorical plantation owners. Muha ha...!'.

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

OK, from reading through the preview book... Koboa is wild/gonzo fantasy closer to Dark Crystal than high fantasy like Tolkien. All the people in the world can transform their body using "form maps" - including into a human-shaped swarm of insects, a flame-haired humanoid with backwards legs, or butterfly-winged humanoid. And yeah, apparently some of the koboan peoples didn't need a concept of gender - which if anyone can change into a human-shaped swarm of insects has some excuse.

It's obvious that the Larensians are a parallel for the Spanish, and the Gosangot Nation are the Incas, but many other elements have no correspondence that I can tell. The Sial are outsiders who brought the butterfly-winged form, and have a city state that's somehow fragmented into four locations - including one on an England-island off the equivalent of Chile. The north end of the continent (Colombia & Venezuela) is a Larensian-derived "Nueva Varda" independent of the Larensian empire, while the south end (Argentina) is Gran Marcelia that merges cultures.

From the preview, I can't tell much about how the Larensians are characterized. The Larensian Empire is obviously viewed as bad by the Koboans, but it's implied that Larensian characters are an option, who aren't part of the empire.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
I do find it rather lazy that Design Mechanism couldn't have hired ethnic maori (and other Polynesians) to consult on the project to add that extra bit of authenticity. Maori people are still around today and use the internet to communicate. It wouldn't be hard to put out an ad or reach out to cultural experts. I'm sure some of them would love to educate others on their culture and inspire an interest in learning about their culture.

Perhaps, but the field is now so full of activists with agendas that the authentic ones are harder to find.

Quote from: I on December 14, 2022, 09:39:33 AM
Can you imagine the horror of existence if people like this ever gained total control of society?

Their very nature makes such impossible thankfully.

Quote from: RandyB on December 14, 2022, 09:59:09 AM
The French Revolution called...

Well they always were a head of the curve.

I think Mythras (formerly RuneQuest 6) is one of the best, most comprehensive systems I've ever run, and a great toolkit for all sorts of fantasy RPGs. Polynesia isn't a setting that really interests me, but a lot of their Mythic line (Constantinople, Britain) is well worth checking out.

I know the TDM guys aren't super online (stuff like this makes me think that is probably a wise and blood-pressure saving move), but they've always been pleasant to interact with, and I appreciate that they just want to make quality gaming material.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 10:12:35 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

OK, from reading through the preview book... Koboa is wild/gonzo fantasy closer to Dark Crystal than high fantasy like Tolkien. All the people in the world can transform their body using "form maps" - including into a human-shaped swarm of insects, a flame-haired humanoid with backwards legs, or butterfly-winged humanoid. And yeah, apparently some of the koboan peoples didn't need a concept of gender - which if anyone can change into a human-shaped swarm of insects has some excuse.

Well there went my hope it would be something of value. So another virtue signal product.
One that somehow with all the POC is less a job than TSR's Maztica.

Is there like some requirement that non-white people cant actually make a setting based on their own culture and not somehow botch it?
I look at these feeling hopeful. But they seem to every time end up a disappointment somehow.

Quote from: Omega on February 04, 2023, 08:33:33 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 10:12:35 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 03, 2023, 05:44:18 AM
Well there is a new book coming out with a South American theme.

QuoteKoboa is a South American Fantasy setting developed by a 100% South American dev team. We count on devs from Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Chile and Argentina, as well as members of the Xukuru, Quechua and Kichwa Indigenous peoples.

Wonder if this will implode or get attacked.

OK, from reading through the preview book... Koboa is wild/gonzo fantasy closer to Dark Crystal than high fantasy like Tolkien. All the people in the world can transform their body using "form maps" - including into a human-shaped swarm of insects, a flame-haired humanoid with backwards legs, or butterfly-winged humanoid. And yeah, apparently some of the koboan peoples didn't need a concept of gender - which if anyone can change into a human-shaped swarm of insects has some excuse.

Well there went my hope it would be something of value. So another virtue signal product.
One that somehow with all the POC is less a job than TSR's Maztica.

Is there like some requirement that non-white people cant actually make a setting based on their own culture and not somehow botch it?
I look at these feeling hopeful. But they seem to every time end up a disappointment somehow.

You mean 21st century Argentina, Brazil, etc?

We know near to nothing about the cultures before us, and I mean the people that do study them know next to jack shit. Because between the conquest, their own wars and primitive cultures and climate very little survived to a time when studying it wasn't worshipping demons.

Shortly after here come the leftards to make studying them taboo because reasons.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 04, 2023, 05:32:59 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
I do find it rather lazy that Design Mechanism couldn't have hired ethnic maori (and other Polynesians) to consult on the project to add that extra bit of authenticity. Maori people are still around today and use the internet to communicate. It wouldn't be hard to put out an ad or reach out to cultural experts. I'm sure some of them would love to educate others on their culture and inspire an interest in learning about their culture.

Perhaps, but the field is now so full of activists with agendas that the authentic ones are harder to find.

Also, since Maori culture is so different from other Polynesian culture, that would have probably just flipped it - getting the Maori right and screwing up the Islands. And as is Mythic Polynesia did a good job on everything except NZ. That points to for the most part it not being necessary, and Shirley doing a fine job on the research himself.

Quote from: Omega on February 04, 2023, 08:33:33 AM
Is there like some requirement that non-white people cant actually make a setting based on their own culture and not somehow botch it?
I look at these feeling hopeful. But they seem to every time end up a disappointment somehow.

I'm not sure which settings you've been disappointed by, but I suspect there might be a clash of expectations.

For example, there is a big market of TTRPGs in Japan. However, they don't make games like Bushido or Sengoku. Instead, they make games like Sword World, or Dragon's Egg (Ryuutama), or Meikyu Kingdom - which are all fantasy that isn't particularly authentic to Japanese history. For that matter, D&D isn't authentic to European history. It is its own thing.

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2023, 12:58:19 PM
For that matter, D&D isn't authentic to European history. It is its own thing.

You keep mentioning that, as if it's somehow relevant.  No one here has complained that D&D is inaccurate to European culture.  People (mostly woke morons) ARE complaining that other settings are not faithful to the cultures they are based on.  That's the point.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 04, 2023, 07:40:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2023, 12:58:19 PM
For that matter, D&D isn't authentic to European history. It is its own thing.

You keep mentioning that, as if it's somehow relevant.  No one here has complained that D&D is inaccurate to European culture.  People (mostly woke morons) ARE complaining that other settings are not faithful to the cultures they are based on.  That's the point.

I was responding to Omega's comment that "non-white people cant actually make a setting based on their own culture and not somehow botch it". I think it may be relevant to that complaint, and to some complaints from the woke side as well.

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2023, 12:58:19 PM

Quote from: Omega on February 04, 2023, 08:33:33 AM
Is there like some requirement that non-white people cant actually make a setting based on their own culture and not somehow botch it?
I look at these feeling hopeful. But they seem to every time end up a disappointment somehow.

I'm not sure which settings you've been disappointed by, but I suspect there might be a clash of expectations.

For example, there is a big market of TTRPGs in Japan. However, they don't make games like Bushido or Sengoku. Instead, they make games like Sword World, or Dragon's Egg (Ryuutama), or Meikyu Kingdom - which are all fantasy that isn't particularly authentic to Japanese history. For that matter, D&D isn't authentic to European history. It is its own thing.

Yes and they also arent touting themselves as "all (insert culture/region/ethnicity/gender here)" as if that has some sort of cultural meaning.

Quote from: Omega on February 04, 2023, 08:33:33 AMIs there like some requirement that non-white people cant actually make a setting based on their own culture and not somehow botch it?

Clearly, the answer is we need trans-racial authors.

Just like how men now make more effective women, we now need Whitey to trans into various other racial groups so we can get some good RPGs written.

Clown World demands it!

To be fair Liam has been consistently clear when he doesn't know something and that he's only speaking for his own, which is the only thing I ask in matters like this. He also doesn't think it's #DriveThruRPGs place to remove the book, and it's not something he was pushing for. He's become persona non grata in certain communities such as the #RpgPub, which is something he's completely aware of, and makes engaging with him in any meaningful manner more difficult. And as someone who has dealt with demographic grifters he doesn't strike me as one, at least yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if the radical elements on all sides push him in that direction.

As for the Moriori 'myth', the argument is that the Māori who were forced to flee their home didn't kill or enslave all the Moriori. And I can only think that if the same argument were applied to the #Holocaust it'd be tossed out as antisemitic propaganda.

Quote

He's become persona non grata in certain communities such as the #RpgPub, which is something he's completely aware of, and makes engaging with him in any meaningful manner more difficult.

This is wholly untrue. I personally thanked him for his participation and have made public statement about how good it was that he came, as have many others, including other mods on the pub.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 06, 2023, 08:58:28 AM
He's become persona non grata in certain communities such as the #RpgPub

Yeah, that's complete bullshit.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 06, 2023, 08:58:28 AM
To be fair Liam

I find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

QuoteI find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

If he's a professional 'consultant' on this kind of thing, he's not going about it in a very professional way. Going on a twitter rant, knowing it was going to pull in a fuck-load of likes, retweets and bandwagon dogpiling isn't the way to go advertising for business as a cultural consultant. Unless he's basing his approach on the Tony Soprano school of waste management consulting. And even Tony Soprano had the fucking courtesy to approach the poor schmuck he was going to shake down first and give him the option of paying the protection money.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel on February 06, 2023, 01:32:46 PM

QuoteI find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

If he's a professional 'consultant' on this kind of thing, he's not going about it in a very professional way. Going on a twitter rant, knowing it was going to pull in a fuck-load of likes, retweets and bandwagon dogpiling isn't the way to go advertising for business as a cultural consultant. Unless he's basing his approach on the Tony Soprano school of waste management consulting. And even Tony Soprano had the fucking courtesy to approach the poor schmuck he was going to shake down first and give him the option of paying the protection money.

Yeah, I wouldn't hire a consultant who behaved like a mewling toddler... But I think all the 'scolds like that sort of faux outrage. As they can all gather around the bonfire and beat their chests while working themselves up into a woke scold frenzy. Aww... bless.  ;D

in his first post, he mentioned

QuoteProfessionally I am a principle advisor for a large public agency advising on implementation of policy and governance in a culturally appropriate manner, ensuring we adhere to our commitments and obligations to Tangata Whenua and the broader public. Outside of the day job I free lance as a cultural advisor, TTRPG creator and podcaster under my brand Toa Tabletop.

so, my guess is that he has some training in the field, and does the same thing on the side. He has mentioned that he does not work on products he has criticized publicly.

Not doubting his credentials or what he does in his day job. I'm saying that his twitter offensive does his professional credentials no favors at all. He knew he was gonna attract attention and pull in the Righteous Mob. The effect was planned. And to me professionals don't act like that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 11:50:35 AM
But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

Mythic Polynesia purports to describe the real-world myths, gods, spirits, and creatures of Polynesian myth. From its marketing blurb:

QuoteExamining the traditions, myths, gods, spirits and creatures of the Great Ocean, the Polynesian islands are brought alive and presented through the Mythras game system. The book includes an exhaustive overview of Oceanian life, the tribes, their magic, and their complex history and politics.

As such, I think it's reasonable to critique it if it does a bad job in presenting those. Like if someone came out with an "authentic medieval" book that does a piss-poor job of representing the medieval culture it purports to. From what I've read, Liam's critiques have been backed up as correct as regarding the Maori and Moriori that he is familiar with (and who are specifically named and described in the book). Whether he's a good person or not doesn't change whether his critiques are correct.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 02:53:00 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 11:50:35 AM
But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

Mythic Polynesia purports to describe the real-world myths, gods, spirits, and creatures of Polynesian myth. From its marketing blurb:

QuoteExamining the traditions, myths, gods, spirits and creatures of the Great Ocean, the Polynesian islands are brought alive and presented through the Mythras game system. The book includes an exhaustive overview of Oceanian life, the tribes, their magic, and their complex history and politics.

As such, I think it's reasonable to critique it if it does a bad job in presenting those. Like if someone came out with an "authentic medieval" book that does a piss-poor job of representing the medieval culture it purports to. From what I've read, Liam's critiques have been backed up as correct as regarding the Maori and Moriori that he is familiar with (and who are specifically named and described in the book). Whether he's a good person or not doesn't change whether his critiques are correct.

But you missed the fact that they already have a disclaimer on page 9 in the pdf.

"Disclaimer
Mythic Polynesia is a roleplaying supplement, not a textbook. The emphasis has very much been on what creates the most interesting setting and less on historical accuracy, although the original source material has been adhered to as much as possible. The most egregious (and deliberate) inaccuracies result from combining non-contemporaneous cultures and events. No disrespect to real world cultures is intended."

So Liam's criticisms are bollox (in my opinion) because of the contents of their disclaimer:
"less on historical accuracy"
"No disrespect to real world cultures is intended"

Sure, he can have an opinion. But who gives a shit? His opinions are meaningless as far as I'm concerned when it comes to elf games of pretend and imagination.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 11:50:35 AM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 06, 2023, 08:58:28 AM
To be fair Liam

I find it odd that he kicked up such a stink on twitter and then 'it just so happens' that it turns out that he's also a 'cultural consultant'. I'm not saying he's a grifter per se, but it certainly will raise his profile which can only be a good thing for a cultural consultant who presumably is looking for work.

But beyond that regarding a 'Mythic' RPG sourcebook.

One or two knob-heads are unhappy with TDM. Who cares? They are not important. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the book as will use it as is. I don't care who's upset. TDM did not make a historically accurate book it's a sourcebook for a silly elf-game.

ALL Kultural Kommisars ARE grifters, by definition.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 04:31:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 02:53:00 PM
I think it's reasonable to critique it if it does a bad job in presenting those. Like if someone came out with an "authentic medieval" book that does a piss-poor job of representing the medieval culture it purports to. From what I've read, Liam's critiques have been backed up as correct as regarding the Maori and Moriori that he is familiar with (and who are specifically named and described in the book). Whether he's a good person or not doesn't change whether his critiques are correct.

But you missed the fact that they already have a disclaimer on page 9 in the pdf.

"Disclaimer
Mythic Polynesia is a roleplaying supplement, not a textbook. The emphasis has very much been on what creates the most interesting setting and less on historical accuracy, although the original source material has been adhered to as much as possible. The most egregious (and deliberate) inaccuracies result from combining non-contemporaneous cultures and events. No disrespect to real world cultures is intended."

So Liam's criticisms are bollox (in my opinion) because of the contents of their disclaimer:
"less on historical accuracy"
"No disrespect to real world cultures is intended"

I don't put too much stock on disclaimers in general. By itself, it's just weasel-wording. For example, lots of games have disclaimers like "make these rules your own" and/or "the GM can override the rules". That doesn't mean that no one can complain if the game's mechanics are shitty and unworkable. Having weasel words of "we're not perfect" doesn't mean that one can't complain about inconsistencies, poor editing, etc.

Of course it's an RPG book and not a textbook. I would have read it that way regardless of the weasel words, nor would I assume that it is 100% accurate. It still claims that it adheres as much as possible to the sources, and that the most egregious inaccuracies are just deliberate shifting of time periods.


As a consumer, I find that such a disclaimer paragraph has almost no effect on how I regard the product as a whole. The marketing, presentation, and the content are still the same. Your post implies that the disclaimer completely changes what the product is. i.e. If they hadn't put in such a disclaimer, then it would be fine to roast the book for any misrepresentation - but if they do put in the disclaimer, then no criticism can be made. To me, the disclaimer is at most a minor shift in how I regard the product as a whole.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel on February 06, 2023, 02:42:24 PM
Not doubting his credentials or what he does in his day job. I'm saying that his twitter offensive does his professional credentials no favors at all. He knew he was gonna attract attention and pull in the Righteous Mob. The effect was planned. And to me professionals don't act like that.

I don't know much about Liam's credentials either to be honest. So he could be indeed a valid person. Although, the way he conducted himself seems a bit bizarre.

However, there is a certain contingency on Twitter and the like - who claim to be 'experts' on X or Y. Or safety/sensitivity consultants (lol). Some seem to have nothing more than belonging to a certain nation or subgroup. Does that make them a valid source? The fek it does in my opinion. I mean, I certainly know quite a bit about Irish history and mythology. But that does NOT make me a cultural expert even though I've been born and raised here.

I'd expect a valid consultant to have an academic degree or at least have years of working in the field.

Safety or Sensitivity... What does that even mean? For that lark I'd expect a significant threat (which there is not in RPGs). And again, even if I played into those silly notions I'd expect someone with some kind of psychology degree (or something in conflict management).

I keep seeing the term 'harm' thrown about. Where's all this 'real-world harm' done by these elf-game's source books? This is a bogeyman IMO just to drum up fear so the woke scolds can try to enforce their hybrid-style censorship.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 06:08:10 PM
As a consumer, I find that such a disclaimer paragraph has almost no effect on how I regard the product as a whole.

That's fine and you're entitled to do so. But as a consumer myself I don't take 'fantasy' source books too seriously even if and when they have a disclaimer or not. I don't need one.

You can call their disclaimer 'weasel words' if you wish - But I see your arguments just as vacuous and irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned the only thing that counts is creating a good and fun sourcebook and TDM delivered (for me anyway).

Having the disclaimer is just the icing on the cake regarding the authenticity of your (or anyone else's) arguments. By having one they can easily absolve themselves from any mistakes that you think they have made. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. All books and games are open to criticism but no one has to take that seriously. But when people start calling for boycotts and bannings then I just think that's exceedingly petty.

So I'm hoping TDM has not taken this product down from D.T. But at least it's still available to buy on their website and lulu. And I highly recommend the PDF!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 06:23:49 PM
Having the disclaimer is just the icing on the cake regarding the authenticity of your (or anyone else's) arguments. By having one they can easily absolve themselves from any mistakes that you think they have made. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. All books and games are open to criticism but no one has to take that seriously. But when people start calling for boycotts and bannings then I just think that's exceedingly petty.

So I'm hoping TDM has not taken this product down from D.T. But at least it's still available to buy on their website and lulu. And I highly recommend the PDF!

To be clear, I'm not calling for a boycott or ban. I've only read the previews for the book and not the full book, and I am not critiquing it myself. I have read Liam's critique, as well as Séadna's fact-checking on RPGPub that has supported Liam's points. From the threads I've read, neither Liam nor Séadna have called for a boycott or ban of the game.

I'm sure that there are others out there on the Internet who are calling for a boycott or ban, though, and I disagree with them.

Criticizing the game isn't the same thing as calling for a boycott or ban.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 06:10:41 PM
I keep seeing the term 'harm' thrown about. Where's all this 'real-world harm' done by these elf-game's source books? This is a bogeyman IMO just to drum up fear so the woke scolds can try to enforce their hybrid-style censorship.

I agree they are just elf-game source books, and I dislike the language like "harm" as well.  However, this cuts both ways. I say the same thing about left-leaning RPGs like Coyote & Crow. I don't think RPGs are important for forming people's political leanings. It's more that people gravitate towards games that they find comfortable. RPGs are highly personalized, so people will mostly make of games what they will. (At least adults -- I'm more cautious about RPGs for kids.)

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 07:12:41 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 06:23:49 PM
Having the disclaimer is just the icing on the cake regarding the authenticity of your (or anyone else's) arguments. By having one they can easily absolve themselves from any mistakes that you think they have made. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. All books and games are open to criticism but no one has to take that seriously. But when people start calling for boycotts and bannings then I just think that's exceedingly petty.

So I'm hoping TDM has not taken this product down from D.T. But at least it's still available to buy on their website and lulu. And I highly recommend the PDF!

To be clear, I'm not calling for a boycott or ban. I've only read the previews for the book and not the full book, and I am not critiquing it myself. I have read Liam's critique, as well as Séadna's fact-checking on RPGPub that has supported Liam's points. From the threads I've read, neither Liam nor Séadna have called for a boycott or ban of the game.

I'm sure that there are others out there on the Internet who are calling for a boycott or ban, though, and I disagree with them.

Criticizing the game isn't the same thing as calling for a boycott or ban.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 06:10:41 PM
I keep seeing the term 'harm' thrown about. Where's all this 'real-world harm' done by these elf-game's source books? This is a bogeyman IMO just to drum up fear so the woke scolds can try to enforce their hybrid-style censorship.

I agree they are just elf-game source books, and I dislike the language like "harm" as well.  However, this cuts both ways. I say the same thing about left-leaning RPGs like Coyote & Crow. I don't think RPGs are important for forming people's political leanings. It's more that people gravitate towards games that they find comfortable. RPGs are highly personalized, so people will mostly make of games what they will. (At least adults -- I'm more cautious about RPGs for kids.)

Absolutely... Critiquing the book is fine, and that of course doesn't mean the same thing as calling for a ban or boycott.

BUT anyone who is calling for the book to be 'revised' for the sake of someone's 'feelings' is engaged in a form, of what I would call hybrid censorship. Reporting it to the Maori council as, Liam did is defintly trying to put pressure on the game company from another angle (but I'm sure they have bigger and better things to worry about).

So his actions ARE in some way trying to get the book changed or pulled in one form or another. Just because he's not saying it directly doesn't mean he's not trying. Why else would you cry to the council? So I don't accept when he says when he didn't want it to be pulled, and that includes any other gimboid that wrote to them while demanding changes they are also engaged in that woke scolding censorious behavior. They can all kick rocks as far as I'm concerned.

Liam (and Seadna) may well feel that there is a legitimate gripe to be had with the M.P. book. They have every right to have an opinion. I'm not necessarily disputing that here per se, but I don't care as a consumer and I certainly don't care what Liam thinks (or wants). Their disclaimer clearly states the book's intentions. That may not be good enough for you or Liam but I'm good with it, and others can decide it for themselves. But I'll give TDM the benefit of the doubt.

When it comes to kids I believe that age-appropriate games should be followed. But RPGs don't cause any 'harm' in the way some imply that's just a weasel word for a woke scold to try and sow doubt. I don't believe RPGs are any more dangerous than any other material that we consume such as: violent video games, horror books or horror movies (I could go on). That's not to say they couldn't affect someone with an already wonky brain but they are defective, to begin with so it's not necessarily the medium.

I incorprated the Haka into my campaign, made it a combat ritual. If 3 or more party members succeed on a performance or Intimidate roll they can cause one enemy to be "afraid" or cast the bless spell till the end of the last players next turn.


None of us are Polynesian, None of us give a damn, we just want to play those rugby videos at the table.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 06, 2023, 08:13:04 PM
None of us are Polynesian, None of us give a damn, we just want to play those rugby videos at the table.

This is it!

Any culture or concept is open to being used for elf-games in any way you see fit and if people don't like it, who cares?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 07:46:32 PM
When it comes to kids I believe that age-appropriate games should be followed. But RPGs don't cause any 'harm' in the way some imply that's just a weasel word for a woke scold to try and sow doubt. I don't believe RPGs are any more dangerous than any other material that we consume such as: violent video games, horror books or horror movies (I could go on). That's not to say they couldn't affect someone with an already wonky brain but they are defective, to begin with so it's not necessarily the medium.

It sounds like we're mostly in agreement. I agree that RPGs are no more dangerous. I think they're typically less dangerous than passive and/or immersive media like film, because they call for thinking and involvement.

To check - I've heard many conservatives complain about LGBT characters in published works - that it's engaging in the culture war and/or normalizing the LGBT lifestyle - which threatens to corrupt and destroy traditional Western society. There are several posters who say that here on the site. I don't disagree that there is a culture war, but I think it's normal and good that multiple viewpoints are presented.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 07:46:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 07:12:41 PM
I'm not calling for a boycott or ban. I've only read the previews for the book and not the full book, and I am not critiquing it myself. I have read Liam's critique, as well as Séadna's fact-checking on RPGPub that has supported Liam's points. From the threads I've read, neither Liam nor Séadna have called for a boycott or ban of the game.

I'm sure that there are others out there on the Internet who are calling for a boycott or ban, though, and I disagree with them.

Absolutely... Critiquing the book is fine, and that of course doesn't mean the same thing as calling for a ban or boycott.

BUT anyone who is calling for the book to be 'revised' for the sake of someone's 'feelings' is engaged in a form, of what I would call hybrid censorship. Reporting it to the Maori council as, Liam did is defintly trying to put pressure on the game company from another angle (but I'm sure they have bigger and better things to worry about).

So his actions ARE in some way trying to get the book changed or pulled in one form or another. Just because he's not saying it directly doesn't mean he's not trying. Why else would you cry to the council?

First of all, I don't know Liam personally or about what he is secretly doing behind the scenes. I am not vouching for his character. He could be lying and secretly be trying to get the book banned despite saying against that.

However, I disagree that such negative feedback on a book is inherently censorship. Someone can say that a book is a steaming pile of garbage and that no one should even look at it - but however bad the things that are said, that's not the same as banning it.

I didn't previously know that he had talked to a Maori council about this, and I also have no idea what that means. What council is it? What are their duties? And what is his duty to the council? It's possible that the council is trying to ban the book, but I wouldn't assume that. It could also be that the council wants to stay informed about cultural portrayals of themselves in wider media. Without knowing more, I couldn't say.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 07:46:32 PM
Liam (and Seadna) may well feel that there is a legitimate gripe to be had with the M.P. book. They have every right to have an opinion. I'm not necessarily disputing that here per se, but I don't care as a consumer and I certainly don't care what Liam thinks (or wants). Their disclaimer clearly states the book's intentions. That may not be good enough for you or Liam but I'm good with it, and others can decide it for themselves. But I'll give TDM the benefit of the doubt.

I don't particularly care what Liam as a person thinks or feels, but I care if his objective criticisms are accurate. When I buy games in real world settings, I do care about accuracy of research. I enjoyed Pundit's Lion & Dragon for it's well-researched material on medieval England - and more, it's attempt to get an authentic feel. I've bought and used many other RPG books in real-world settings, like various historical GURPS books, the D&D 2E historical campaign series, RuneQuest Vikings, Call of Cthulhu sourcebooks, etc. With all of these, I care about how well informed the writing is about the real-world subject.

My impression of the Mythic series is that they involve a lot of research on the real-world subject, and that is a lot of the content of the book. So I'd want to know if that research has been done badly. That's not just a matter of taste. Objective reality exists, and bad research is different than good research.

The problem with writing Mythic Polynesia is the same as writing Mythic Americas. There are many cultures involved which were often hostile to each other, so you can't take any single source as definitive, and many will object to their historic enemies speaking for them. After all a rather startling number of Native American names still in use today are all but slurs given to then by the tribes they fought with. And as I don't have the book I cannot say how or if it covers each Polynesian demographic.

The other problem I'm realizing is that all media is treated like propaganda these days, and neither artistic interpretation nor personal expression can exist in such an environment. And while all art is political, not all of it is advocacy. Many folks explore darker subjects without being consumed by them as many who are ostensibly in the kink and BDSM communities should realize. But if we eliminate every piece of media which could be interpreted in an ideologically aberrant way we're not going to have any media at all, just vacuous content and insipid political screeds.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:21:02 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 07:46:32 PM
When it comes to kids I believe that age-appropriate games should be followed. But RPGs don't cause any 'harm' in the way some imply that's just a weasel word for a woke scold to try and sow doubt. I don't believe RPGs are any more dangerous than any other material that we consume such as: violent video games, horror books or horror movies (I could go on). That's not to say they couldn't affect someone with an already wonky brain but they are defective, to begin with so it's not necessarily the medium.

It sounds like we're mostly in agreement. I agree that RPGs are no more dangerous. I think they're typically less dangerous than passive and/or immersive media like film, because they call for thinking and involvement.

To check - I've heard many conservatives complain about LGBT characters in published works - that it's engaging in the culture war and/or normalizing the LGBT lifestyle - which threatens to corrupt and destroy traditional Western society. There are several posters who say that here on the site. I don't disagree that there is a culture war, but I think it's normal and good that multiple viewpoints are presented.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 07:46:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 07:12:41 PM
I'm not calling for a boycott or ban. I've only read the previews for the book and not the full book, and I am not critiquing it myself. I have read Liam's critique, as well as Séadna's fact-checking on RPGPub that has supported Liam's points. From the threads I've read, neither Liam nor Séadna have called for a boycott or ban of the game.

I'm sure that there are others out there on the Internet who are calling for a boycott or ban, though, and I disagree with them.

Absolutely... Critiquing the book is fine, and that of course doesn't mean the same thing as calling for a ban or boycott.

BUT anyone who is calling for the book to be 'revised' for the sake of someone's 'feelings' is engaged in a form, of what I would call hybrid censorship. Reporting it to the Maori council as, Liam did is defintly trying to put pressure on the game company from another angle (but I'm sure they have bigger and better things to worry about).

So his actions ARE in some way trying to get the book changed or pulled in one form or another. Just because he's not saying it directly doesn't mean he's not trying. Why else would you cry to the council?

First of all, I don't know Liam personally or about what he is secretly doing behind the scenes. I am not vouching for his character. He could be lying and secretly be trying to get the book banned despite saying against that.

However, I disagree that such negative feedback on a book is inherently censorship. Someone can say that a book is a steaming pile of garbage and that no one should even look at it - but however bad the things that are said, that's not the same as banning it.

I didn't previously know that he had talked to a Maori council about this, and I also have no idea what that means. What council is it? What are their duties? And what is his duty to the council? It's possible that the council is trying to ban the book, but I wouldn't assume that. It could also be that the council wants to stay informed about cultural portrayals of themselves in wider media. Without knowing more, I couldn't say.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 06, 2023, 07:46:32 PM
Liam (and Seadna) may well feel that there is a legitimate gripe to be had with the M.P. book. They have every right to have an opinion. I'm not necessarily disputing that here per se, but I don't care as a consumer and I certainly don't care what Liam thinks (or wants). Their disclaimer clearly states the book's intentions. That may not be good enough for you or Liam but I'm good with it, and others can decide it for themselves. But I'll give TDM the benefit of the doubt.

I don't particularly care what Liam as a person thinks or feels, but I care if his objective criticisms are accurate. When I buy games in real world settings, I do care about accuracy of research. I enjoyed Pundit's Lion & Dragon for it's well-researched material on medieval England - and more, it's attempt to get an authentic feel. I've bought and used many other RPG books in real-world settings, like various historical GURPS books, the D&D 2E historical campaign series, RuneQuest Vikings, Call of Cthulhu sourcebooks, etc. With all of these, I care about how well informed the writing is about the real-world subject.

My impression of the Mythic series is that they involve a lot of research on the real-world subject, and that is a lot of the content of the book. So I'd want to know if that research has been done badly. That's not just a matter of taste. Objective reality exists, and bad research is different than good research.

When it comes to gaming I tend to leave my bias at the door. But I won't tick boxes to appease anyone, right or especially the Woke Scold left (even tho' I lean left in the political sphere).

I think we are getting wires crossed here. I don't care if people criticize a book. Liam has every right to do so. But you go beyond mere criticism when you start 'reporting it to the Maori council' in the hope they will do something. He didn't do that for no reason. He hoped for some kind of pressure. And advising people not to buy the book which he also did on his twitter (you should check it out). So he is calling for 'pressure' on the company which in my opinion is overstepping the line from being just 'critical' and falling into censoring a company's creativity.

This is subjective... But if you are buying gaming books for historical accuracy, then you're probably going to be mostly disappointed. As they said themselves it is not a textbook. If I want to know the real history of a place I'll buy a history book. But that's just me.

But you are absolutely free not to buy the book and you can certainly take Liam's criticisms onboard. And if you feel he's right then this book probably 'aint for you. Personally, I'm only into playing elf-games so I don't care about liberties taken in order to facilitate a good rollicking game set in 'mythic' Polynesia. And I don't think any harm will be done because of it existence.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 07, 2023, 05:47:13 AM
But if we eliminate every piece of media which could be interpreted in an ideologically aberrant way we're not going to have any media at all, just vacuous content insipid political screeds.

Exactly...

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 07, 2023, 06:12:20 AM
I think we are getting wires crossed here. I don't care if people criticize a book. Liam has every right to do so. But you go beyond mere criticism when you start 'reporting it to the Maori council' in the hope they will do something. He didn't do that for no reason. He hoped for some kind of pressure. And advising people not to buy the book which he also did on his twitter (you should check it out). So he is calling for 'pressure' on the company which in my opinion is overstepping the line from being just 'critical' and falling into censoring a company's creativity.

As I read it, you're saying that it's OK to say

1) "For reasons X, Y, and Z, this book is a steaming pile of dogshit."

but saying

2) "For reasons X, Y, and Z, this book is a steaming pile of dogshit. Don't buy it."

is crossing the line and is effectively censoring the company by putting pressure on it. As I see it, #1 and #2 are effectively the same. A negative review will inherently put pressure on the company and cost the company sales, because potential customers read it and it influences them not to buy it. But those are the breaks. Someone expressing their genuine opinion to the world can put pressure on a company. As long as they are truthful in what they say, I think that's valid.

As I said, I don't know what his Maori council is like or what they would do.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 07, 2023, 06:12:20 AM
This is subjective... But if you are buying gaming books for historical accuracy, then you're probably going to be mostly disappointed. As they said themselves it is not a textbook. If I want to know the real history of a place I'll buy a history book. But that's just me.

I've been quite pleased by a lot of RPG historical/mythic sourcebooks. I like Pundit's Lion & Dragon. Many of the GURPS sourcebooks have excellent research (with some lower-quality exceptions like GURPS Vikings and GURPS China). The AD&D 2E historical sourcebooks line were generally excellent - like Vikings and A Mighty Fortress. Ars Magica and Call of Cthulhu have had many excellent sourcebooks (and a few stinkers).

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:12:42 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 07, 2023, 06:12:20 AM
I think we are getting wires crossed here. I don't care if people criticize a book. Liam has every right to do so. But you go beyond mere criticism when you start 'reporting it to the Maori council' in the hope they will do something. He didn't do that for no reason. He hoped for some kind of pressure. And advising people not to buy the book which he also did on his twitter (you should check it out). So he is calling for 'pressure' on the company which in my opinion is overstepping the line from being just 'critical' and falling into censoring a company's creativity.

As I read it, you're saying that it's OK to say

1) "For reasons X, Y, and Z, this book is a steaming pile of dogshit."

but saying

2) "For reasons X, Y, and Z, this book is a steaming pile of dogshit. Don't buy it."

is crossing the line and is effectively censoring the company by putting pressure on it. As I see it, #1 and #2 are effectively the same. A negative review will inherently put pressure on the company and cost the company sales, because potential customers read it and it influences them not to buy it. But those are the breaks. Someone expressing their genuine opinion to the world can put pressure on a company. As long as they are truthful in what they say, I think that's valid.

As I said, I don't know what his Maori council is like or what they would do.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 07, 2023, 06:12:20 AM
This is subjective... But if you are buying gaming books for historical accuracy, then you're probably going to be mostly disappointed. As they said themselves it is not a textbook. If I want to know the real history of a place I'll buy a history book. But that's just me.

I've been quite pleased by a lot of RPG historical/mythic sourcebooks. I like Pundit's Lion & Dragon. Many of the GURPS sourcebooks have excellent research (with some lower-quality exceptions like GURPS Vikings and GURPS China). The AD&D 2E historical sourcebooks line were generally excellent - like Vikings and A Mighty Fortress. Ars Magica and Call of Cthulhu have had many excellent sourcebooks (and a few stinkers).

It's not the same... A bad review from a person is highly highly unlikely to ever get a book changed or be taken down by a publisher.

Now, if you give it a shit review while virtue signaling very publically on Twitter all about the 'harm it could do', and given in the current climate of uber-political correctness it may actually cause a company to cave into the pressure. Especially if a mini-mob appears on Twitter and starts saying that they will never buy another product from them again.

Of course, it's all bull shit and no one should ever listen to these hyperbolic dweebs. But some fearful companies do.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 07, 2023, 12:26:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:12:42 PM
As I see it, #1 and #2 are effectively the same. A negative review will inherently put pressure on the company and cost the company sales, because potential customers read it and it influences them not to buy it. But those are the breaks. Someone expressing their genuine opinion to the world can put pressure on a company. As long as they are truthful in what they say, I think that's valid.

It's not the same... A bad review from a person is highly highly unlikely to ever get a book changed or be taken down by a publisher.

Now, if you give it a shit review while virtue signaling very publically on Twitter all about the 'harm it could do', and given in the current climate of uber-political correctness it may actually cause a company to cave into the pressure. Especially if a mini-mob appears on Twitter and starts saying that they will never buy another product from them again.

I hate Twitter for its low thought content -- but someone isn't inherently wrong just for being there, as long as they're truthful and genuine. Companies should listen to their customers, and change what they're doing if there's a mass of opinion that doesn't like what they're doing.

If a company is selling to woke customers (like Evil Hat, say), then they should listen to woke criticism and feedback. That's listening to their customer base. There exist both woke gamers and anti-woke gamers, so there should be companies that sell to one or the other or both.

I suspect the problem from your view is that anti-woke gamers don't have the influence over game companies that you think they should have. But the answer to that isn't to whine that it's not fair for woke gamers to be vocal. The answer is that there should be more companies that listen to anti-woke reviewers and opinions, and sell to that market.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:21:02 AMTo check - I've heard many conservatives complain about LGBT characters in published works - that it's engaging in the culture war and/or normalizing the LGBT lifestyle - which threatens to corrupt and destroy traditional Western society. There are several posters who say that here on the site. I don't disagree that there is a culture war, but I think it's normal and good that multiple viewpoints are presented.

As one of those rare unicorns, a conservative gay man, I thought I'd comment here.

Gay characters have existed in fantasy and sci-fi literature for a long time. I'm sure I'm not the only gay geek who grew up with Mercedes Lackey, for example. I don't have a problem with gay characters in fantasy and sci-fi RPG... to a point.

When you basically design your game from the ground up to be an LGBT utopian wonderland, that's just stupid. I'm looking at you, Blue Rose. I'm gay, and even I don't care about the issue that much. I don't need an entire RPG that validates my struggle by having placeholder homophobic groups I can beat up on, and I sure as shit don't need to be reassured over and over that I'm valid and good and right and nobody who disagrees is anything other than an evil caricature. I'm not a pet. You don't need to pat me on the head and reassure me.

When you try to rewrite history and make your "authentic" settings based on the "real world" conform to modern-day LGBT sensibilities. Look, I get it, despite what we sometimes think, homosexuality wasn't unknown in the past, but it also wasn't treated like the LGBT community today thinks it should be. Don't treat me like a moron, I don't need to pretend the past wasn't what it was to avoid going into an emotional meltdown or something.

When you specifically call out only the gay people. When you have a dozen characters, 8 of them do not have their sexuality discussed at all, 1 is straight, and 3 are some flavor of LGBT? That's insulting. Don't do it. It's also stupid. Again, don't do it. Is it relevant to the character, the story, the product? Is there a scandal because the prince of the dwarven kingdom in the North Peak region has a male lover, which calls into question the succession? Great! That's interesting! Sure! Are you just telling me that the male tavern keeper has a husband to point out that he's gay, when that husband is in no way relevant to anything? Again, that's insulting and dumb. Don't do it. To paraphrase a rant I once heard from another gay guy about this issue, I also don't care that the tavern keeper's mother has hemorrhoids, because it doesn't matter.

That's where I stand on the "culture war" issue with regards to gay representation in games. "Do it right, don't treat me like an idiot, and stop being so fucking annoying about it". Outside of games, it's a whole lot more complex.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 01:04:04 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 07, 2023, 12:26:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:12:42 PM
As I see it, #1 and #2 are effectively the same. A negative review will inherently put pressure on the company and cost the company sales, because potential customers read it and it influences them not to buy it. But those are the breaks. Someone expressing their genuine opinion to the world can put pressure on a company. As long as they are truthful in what they say, I think that's valid.

It's not the same... A bad review from a person is highly highly unlikely to ever get a book changed or be taken down by a publisher.

Now, if you give it a shit review while virtue signaling very publically on Twitter all about the 'harm it could do', and given in the current climate of uber-political correctness it may actually cause a company to cave into the pressure. Especially if a mini-mob appears on Twitter and starts saying that they will never buy another product from them again.

I hate Twitter for its low thought content -- but someone isn't inherently wrong just for being there, as long as they're truthful and genuine. Companies should listen to their customers, and change what they're doing if there's a mass of opinion that doesn't like what they're doing.

If a company is selling to woke customers (like Evil Hat, say), then they should listen to woke criticism and feedback. That's listening to their customer base. There exist both woke gamers and anti-woke gamers, so there should be companies that sell to one or the other or both.

I suspect the problem from your view is that anti-woke gamers don't have the influence over game companies that you think they should have. But the answer to that isn't to whine that it's not fair for woke gamers to be vocal. The answer is that there should be more companies that listen to anti-woke reviewers and opinions, and sell to that market.

This is veering into a different point about companies making products to fit their customers but generally, it works the other way around for niche stuff and creative products like RPGs, etc.

But there's nothing wrong with listening to intelligent feedback from your customer base of course. But political correctness is not really part of the creative process although the woke scolds would try to tell you that it is.

Also, why should TDM listen to 'one' person (who is then joined by another few Twitter bell-ends?). They shouldn't. If he hadn't raised this mico-storm no one would have ever batted an eyelid about MP. There was certainly no 'mass' opinion here they were just trying to be as vocal as they could be in order to affect change.

Hypothetically speaking - If I wrote a novel and it had 300 reviews, and 290 of those were all very positive but the remaining 10 were awful that would generally mean that I was doing something right. If it was the other way around then I'd have to possibly re-think my novel's concept. Arbitrary numbers of course but that's what happened to TDM. It's only one or two dweebs complaining so it's not something they need to worry about at all (IMO).

But it's up to them at the end of the day. I just hope they hold their ground. As long as that book and pdf are still available which they are, then that's a victory for the freedom of creativity.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 07, 2023, 01:13:51 PM
That's where I stand on the "culture war" issue with regards to gay representation in games. "Do it right, don't treat me like an idiot, and stop being so fucking annoying about it". Outside of games, it's a whole lot more complex.

Exactly this! Make a good character first who happens to be gay. Not a gay character (to tick a box) and who's nothing beyond their sexuality. It's one of the worst mistakes a writer could ever make when attempting to create rich and diverse characters.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2023, 11:43:49 AM
You mean 21st century Argentina, Brazil, etc?

We know near to nothing about the cultures before us, and I mean the people that do study them know next to jack shit. Because between the conquest, their own wars and primitive cultures and climate very little survived to a time when studying it wasn't worshipping demons.

Shortly after here come the leftards to make studying them taboo because reasons.

I don't know, I think we know a fair bit about the cultures which immediately preceded us, exactly because the Iberian Crowns were banking so much on coöpting local élites into becoming their feudal subjects. It's only after the "Enlightenment" mentality of European cultural superiority trickled down from France in the 18th Century that the idea of the "White Saviour" came into South America.

Unless you're talking about Christianity. We certainly did our level best to throw away native religions as quickly as we could make them do it.

As for the cultures before those we found on the ground, there's been some very good archaeological work done in the past seventy years or so, but there's only so much you can do with archaeology of pre-literate societies in a very hot, very humid environment.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 07, 2023, 07:23:09 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2023, 11:43:49 AM
You mean 21st century Argentina, Brazil, etc?

We know near to nothing about the cultures before us, and I mean the people that do study them know next to jack shit. Because between the conquest, their own wars and primitive cultures and climate very little survived to a time when studying it wasn't worshipping demons.

Shortly after here come the leftards to make studying them taboo because reasons.

I don't know, I think we know a fair bit about the cultures which immediately preceded us, exactly because the Iberian Crowns were banking so much on coöpting local élites into becoming their feudal subjects. It's only after the "Enlightenment" mentality of European cultural superiority trickled down from France in the 18th Century that the idea of the "White Saviour" came into South America.

Unless you're talking about Christianity. We certainly did our level best to throw away native religions as quickly as we could make them do it.

As for the cultures before those we found on the ground, there's been some very good archaeological work done in the past seventy years or so, but there's only so much you can do with archaeology of pre-literate societies in a very hot, very humid environment.

Since the only people who could write were the priests/monarchy no, we don't know very much because plenty was lost during the conquista.

We know a little, infer a bunch and don't know how much we can trust what we "know" because it was contaminated by the religious, the hatred of one poeple towards the other because of being their slaves for centuries before the Spaniards came here and the woke "historians".

We still can't read the Mayan heriogliphs, because there's no rosetta stone with 3 languages and we happen to know one. Ditto for most of the American cultures. Not to mention the northamerican ones who didn't even have that.

How many of the stories told to the priests are just tall tales? We don't know.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 07, 2023, 01:13:51 PM
As one of those rare unicorns, a conservative gay man, I thought I'd comment here.

Gay characters have existed in fantasy and sci-fi literature for a long time. I'm sure I'm not the only gay geek who grew up with Mercedes Lackey, for example. I don't have a problem with gay characters in fantasy and sci-fi RPG... to a point.

When you basically design your game from the ground up to be an LGBT utopian wonderland, that's just stupid. I'm looking at you, Blue Rose. I'm gay, and even I don't care about the issue that much. I don't need an entire RPG that validates my struggle by having placeholder homophobic groups I can beat up on, and I sure as shit don't need to be reassured over and over that I'm valid and good and right and nobody who disagrees is anything other than an evil caricature. I'm not a pet. You don't need to pat me on the head and reassure me.

When you try to rewrite history and make your "authentic" settings based on the "real world" conform to modern-day LGBT sensibilities. Look, I get it, despite what we sometimes think, homosexuality wasn't unknown in the past, but it also wasn't treated like the LGBT community today thinks it should be. Don't treat me like a moron, I don't need to pretend the past wasn't what it was to avoid going into an emotional meltdown or something.

When you specifically call out only the gay people. When you have a dozen characters, 8 of them do not have their sexuality discussed at all, 1 is straight, and 3 are some flavor of LGBT? That's insulting. Don't do it. It's also stupid. Again, don't do it. Is it relevant to the character, the story, the product? Is there a scandal because the prince of the dwarven kingdom in the North Peak region has a male lover, which calls into question the succession? Great! That's interesting! Sure! Are you just telling me that the male tavern keeper has a husband to point out that he's gay, when that husband is in no way relevant to anything? Again, that's insulting and dumb. Don't do it. To paraphrase a rant I once heard from another gay guy about this issue, I also don't care that the tavern keeper's mother has hemorrhoids, because it doesn't matter.

That's where I stand on the "culture war" issue with regards to gay representation in games. "Do it right, don't treat me like an idiot, and stop being so fucking annoying about it". Outside of games, it's a whole lot more complex.

Cat dang, so true. Thumbs up. Great post

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 07, 2023, 01:13:51 PM
As one of those rare unicorns, a conservative gay man, I thought I'd comment here.

Gay characters have existed in fantasy and sci-fi literature for a long time. I'm sure I'm not the only gay geek who grew up with Mercedes Lackey, for example. I don't have a problem with gay characters in fantasy and sci-fi RPG... to a point.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 07, 2023, 01:13:51 PM
That's where I stand on the "culture war" issue with regards to gay representation in games. "Do it right, don't treat me like an idiot, and stop being so fucking annoying about it". Outside of games, it's a whole lot more complex.

Bruwulf -- can you suggest any products or creators who are doing it right on this front, as far as your tastes go?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 07, 2023, 05:47:13 AM
The problem with writing Mythic Polynesia is the same as writing Mythic Americas. There are many cultures involved which were often hostile to each other, so you can't take any single source as definitive, and many will object to their historic enemies speaking for them. After all a rather startling number of Native American names still in use today are all but slurs given to then by the tribes they fought with. And as I don't have the book I cannot say how or if it covers each Polynesian demographic.

The other problem I'm realizing is that all media is treated like propaganda these days, and neither artistic interpretation nor personal expression can exist in such an environment. And while all art is political, not all of it is advocacy. Many folks explore darker subjects without being consumed by them as many who are ostensibly in the kink and BDSM communities should realize. But if we eliminate every piece of media which could be interpreted in an ideologically aberrant way we're not going to have any media at all, just vacuous content and insipid political screeds.

Just for the lulz, explain the politics of the Monalisa.

No, not all art IS political.

But you're correct that the woke WANT all art to be but propaganda for their religious beliefs, thus no RPG that doesn't push the cult's screed can be allowed to exist, if any such game exists it must be forced to bend the knee and change, destroyed or co-opted, any of those is an acceptable outcome for the progressives.

What many fail to notice is they ALLWAYS go after soft targets, no one is going after Pundit's Arrows, Silk Road, Lion and dragon, etc in a serious way.

Yes, Wotzi/Hasbro IS a sof target, they have D.I.E. priests in positions of power and are taking blood money from the ESG.

Meanwhile a smaller fish like Pundit isn't as soft, which is why they try to get his stuff banned instead of trying to force him to to bend the knee, hire Kultural Kommisars and change his stuff.

The ONLY correct play when they come after you is to tell them to get fucked.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 09:34:19 PM
Since the only people who could write were the priests/monarchy no, we don't know very much because plenty was lost during the conquista.

We know a little, infer a bunch and don't know how much we can trust what we "know" because it was contaminated by the religious, the hatred of one poeple towards the other because of being their slaves for centuries before the Spaniards came here and the woke "historians".

We still can't read the Mayan heriogliphs, because there's no rosetta stone with 3 languages and we happen to know one. Ditto for most of the American cultures. Not to mention the northamerican ones who didn't even have that.

How many of the stories told to the priests are just tall tales? We don't know.

While it is true that writing among the Mesoamericans was generally limited to the priests, this is less of a problem than it would seem at first: the absolute same thing is true of the Babylonians, the Gauls, and the Middle Egyptians. By and large, we have a smaller corpus for the Migrations period Germanics, and essentially hearsay about all sorts of Late Antique and Early Mediaeval European ethnicities (Magyars, Bolghars, Alans, Finns, Suebi...) We're used to having limited textual evidence to go by. In any case, as far as fodder for RPGs go, what we want are the tall tales much more than the real history of which king replaced which other king. The tall tales are much more fantastic.

In fact, I was generally thinking of the rest of Latin America, the illiterate part—unless consensus has shifted again on the status of Incan quipús as true writing—where we have essentially hearsay and legend, and even a good part of it Christianised. This is fine: there is a lot you can find out about a people just by collecting enough hearsay and legends, not to mention those new methods of genetic archaeology which allows us to begin tracking broad population movements into the distant past. Regardless, the means of social organization in Incan and Aztec lands were left mostly intact, only replacing the Inca/Tlatoani with His Catholic Majesty and allowing what we could term the rest of the Feudal setup running BAU until the second third of the Eighteenth Century, when French influence started the "Enlightened Despotism" era and people like the Marquis of Pombal decided to extirpate native culture to replace it with "superior" European one.

In Portuguese America, it has long been the Metropolitan policy to come in, marry the local women, and let the next generation do the work of settling the land. Practically all Brazilian bandeirantes were this kind of mixed-blood offspring who spoke Nheendyba as a mother tongue and often weren't very good at Portuguese proper. Only from 1750 on the government went on a campaign to replace it with Portuguese, which mostly worked because there was such a massive foreign migration into Brazil in the 19th Century. Otherwise we might still be like the Paraguayans, a slight majority of which speak Guaraní at home.

Now, to bring the subject back to New Zealand and Polynesia, there is plenty of legendary material which still remains useful for the purpose of making up a campaign setting. It's certainly a lot easier, methinks, since there is basically only one macro-culture to emulate, even if it has developed slightly different in NZ vs Tonga vs Hawai'i. In the Americas there's a lot more diversity and you will eventually need to pick only a few to develop to any significant extent.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 08, 2023, 04:36:44 PM
No, not all art IS political.

Especially the way they 'squeeze', or force it into the modern hobby then play the 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' tactic. Of course, that definition is highly flexible depending on who you want to target today.

Fuck 'em - Never play that game. Do what you want and ignore the bedwetters.  ;D

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 08, 2023, 05:10:24 PM
In fact, I was generally thinking of the rest of Latin America, the illiterate part—unless consensus has shifted again on the status of Incan quipús as true writing—where we have essentially hearsay and legend, and even a good part of it Christianised. This is fine: there is a lot you can find out about a people just by collecting enough hearsay and legends, not to mention those new methods of genetic archaeology which allows us to begin tracking broad population movements into the distant past. Regardless, the means of social organization in Incan and Aztec lands were left mostly intact, only replacing the Inca/Tlatoani with His Catholic Majesty and allowing what we could term the rest of the Feudal setup running BAU until the second third of the Eighteenth Century, when French influence started the "Enlightened Despotism" era and people like the Marquis of Pombal decided to extirpate native culture to replace it with "superior" European one.

Quipu isn't true writing in the sense of conveying stories. However, Incan and other Andean cultures left a lot of detailed art - both representational and abstract. (Much more than most North American cultures, for example.) Much of the Andean artwork was destroyed - especially goldwork that was melted down by conquerors - but there is still a lot that has been found. I've been using this book a lot in my campaign:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1045239.Art_of_the_Andes

Using only art leaves a lot of holes to interpret, but it is a great jumping off point. There is also archeology of things like city layout and burials.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 08, 2023, 05:10:24 PM
Now, to bring the subject back to New Zealand and Polynesia, there is plenty of legendary material which still remains useful for the purpose of making up a campaign setting. It's certainly a lot easier, methinks, since there is basically only one macro-culture to emulate, even if it has developed slightly different in NZ vs Tonga vs Hawai'i. In the Americas there's a lot more diversity and you will eventually need to pick only a few to develop to any significant extent.

I don't know Polynesia much, but I'd be wary about saying that it's easy because there's only one macro-culture. I'd accept that it's less diverse than all of the Americas or all of Europe. Still, regional differences can be very important, like how the difference between French and German would be very important for a continental Europe game.

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 07:29:02 PM
Quipu isn't true writing in the sense of conveying stories. However, Incan and other Andean cultures left a lot of detailed art - both representational and abstract. (Much more than most North American cultures, for example.) Much of the Andean artwork was destroyed - especially goldwork that was melted down by conquerors - but there is still a lot that has been found. I've been using this book a lot in my campaign:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1045239.Art_of_the_Andes

Using only art leaves a lot of holes to interpret, but it is a great jumping off point. There is also archeology of things like city layout and burials.

Unless the consensus has shifted since I last studied this 10–15 years ago, quipús seem to have been some sort of mechanism for recording accounting ledgers, of all things; which is fantastic, considering that the Sumerians started their cuneiform writing down accounting ledgers. It may have been that, in five hundred years, we might have had yet another birthplace of writing (or it might have never gone anywhere, as the proto-writing in Mohenjo-daro and Harappa seem to have gone nowhere).

Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 07:29:02 PM
I don't know Polynesia much, but I'd be wary about saying that it's easy because there's only one macro-culture. I'd accept that it's less diverse than all of the Americas or all of Europe. Still, regional differences can be very important, like how the difference between French and German would be very important for a continental Europe game.

Actually, unless your continental Europe is set in actual Europe, as opposed to the Flanaess or somewhere similar, there are no relevant differences between French and Germans—or Spaniards, or Poles, or even the English. Western Europe is essentially one big material culture, the biggest difference being which language they use; and even within France and Germany proper, there was a bewildering array of varieties of the "national" language, not to mention completely different language groups like the Bretons and the Sorbs. And yet, from Talinn to Lisbon they are all feudal, Latin-Rite Christians whose warrior élite specialize in heavy cavalry.

But yes, I agree that it is not necessarily easy; just easier than the glorious mess that are the pre-Columbian Americas.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 07, 2023, 06:12:20 AM
This is subjective... But if you are buying gaming books for historical accuracy, then you're probably going to be mostly disappointed. As they said themselves it is not a textbook. If I want to know the real history of a place I'll buy a history book. But that's just me.

I don't think people are expecting textbook like historical accuracy, or buying RPG books to know the real history of the place. It's that when you buy an RPG book based on a setting, in this case the mythic past of Polynesia, you expect the book to actually implement that to some degree and show knowledge of the myths and cultures, otherwise why buy a historical supplement? It's no different from when DM released Lyonesse, it has to actually reflect the society of the books and magic system, otherwise why buy it as a Lyonesse setting book?

Based on the threads on rpgpub.com though I bought Mythic Polynesia as it seems the major errors are just for New Zealand and not the rest of Polynesia.

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 09, 2023, 12:30:02 PM
Based on the threads on rpgpub.com though I bought Mythic Polynesia as it seems the major errors are just for New Zealand and not the rest of Polynesia.

Errors in a 'mythical' book? So what and who cares? I refer you to their disclaimer.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 12:43:29 PM
Errors in a 'mythical' book? So what and who cares? I refer you to their disclaimer.

Yeah the disclaimer says it isn't a historical treatise. That doesn't mean I'll just accept absolutely anything from a book just because it has "Mythic" on its cover. It's no different from the Lyonesse source book. Sure I don't mind if it doesn't match the novels 100%, but if half the locations are wrong and the magic system is nothing like the book why would I use it as a source book for the novels? Similarly if the creatures in the book weren't really from Polynesian myth and the magic system didn't reflect the magic from their myths to some degree why would you use it as a historic myth source book?

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 09, 2023, 01:59:18 PM
That doesn't mean I'll just accept absolutely anything from a book just because it has "Mythic" on its cover.

Thanks for popping over from the pub, and being 'oh-so concerned' about this 'harmful' release. Hmm... smells like a troll to me.

But more importantly... Who gives a shit what you will or won't accept?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 04:00:58 PM
Thanks for popping over from the pub, and being 'oh-so concerned' about this 'harmful' release. Hmm... smells like a troll to me.

I don't think it's "harmful", I never even said that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 04:00:58 PM
But more importantly... Who gives a shit what you will or won't accept?

I'm not expecting other people to "give a shit", it's just a conversation about what people expect from historical sourcebooks. Most people buying the Mythras historical line expect some fidelity, it's what the line is marketed with. Not total historical accuracy, but some reasonable fidelity to the source culture and its myths. Other books in the line were good at this. I even think this book is good at it.
My point isn't so much about Mythic Polynesia itself, more that it's not odd to expect some historical accuracy from a line marketing itself as such. Just like I'd expect some accuracy to the setting from a Lord of the Rings book.

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 09, 2023, 04:23:17 PM
I'm not expecting other people to "give a shit", it's just a conversation about what people expect from historical sourcebooks. Most people buying the Mythras historical line expect some fidelity, it's what the line is marketed with. Not total historical accuracy, but some reasonable fidelity to the source culture and its myths. Mythic Babylon is a good example.

At this point, it's probably useful to recentre the discussion. I did not follow the hubbub over at Twitter, but the problem originally didn't seem to be about historical fidelity, but that the villains on the included adventure were lizardmen and someone decided it was a dog whistle for the Maori. Is that what the problem was? Carfilhiot, what exactly do you feel in the book isn't faithful to Maori culture specifically?

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 09, 2023, 04:32:09 PM
At this point, it's probably useful to recentre the discussion. I did not follow the hubbub over at Twitter, but the problem originally didn't seem to be about historical fidelity, but that the villains on the included adventure were lizardmen and someone decided it was a dog whistle for the Maori. Is that what the problem was?

I didn't hear about that Lizardmen thing. I don't recall lizardmen in the book.

QuoteCarfilhiot, what exactly do you feel in the book isn't faithful to Maori culture specifically?

It just seems to be missing monsters from their myth and doesn't handle their magic well. Not a big deal for me as it handles other Polynesians fine, I wasn't looking for a Maori specific game.

the lizardman thing was a sidetrack discussion about Monster Island, which has the term "savage" to describe one species of lizardman natives on the island and I got threadbanned for attempting to correct some facts about it without stepping into any commentary about the racism of the statement. It is not relevant to Mythic Polynesia.

edit: you can read my comments https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mythras-mythic-polynesia.904650/post-24602331 and https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mythras-mythic-polynesia.904650/post-24602492 and my threadban reasoning https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mythras-mythic-polynesia.904650/post-24610906

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 09, 2023, 04:23:17 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 04:00:58 PM
Thanks for popping over from the pub, and being 'oh-so concerned' about this 'harmful' release. Hmm... smells like a troll to me.

I don't think it's "harmful", I never even said that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 04:00:58 PM
But more importantly... Who gives a shit what you will or won't accept?

I'm not expecting other people to "give a shit", it's just a conversation about what people expect from historical sourcebooks. Most people buying the Mythras historical line expect some fidelity, it's what the line is marketed with. Not total historical accuracy, but some reasonable fidelity to the source culture and its myths. Other books in the line were good at this. I even think this book is good at it.
My point isn't so much about Mythic Polynesia itself, more that it's not odd to expect some historical accuracy from a line marketing itself as such. Just like I'd expect some accuracy to the setting from a Lord of the Rings book.

Keep up the concern trolling.  ;)

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 06:25:06 PM
Keep up the concern trolling.  ;)

Huh? I mean I bought it, said I think it's good and can't even imagine how it would do harm. Where's the "concern trolling"?

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 09, 2023, 06:38:37 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 06:25:06 PM
Keep up the concern trolling.  ;)

Huh? I mean I bought it, said I think it's good and can't even imagine how it would do harm. Where's the "concern trolling"?

Not you clearly...

Quote from: Raleel on February 09, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
the lizardman thing was a sidetrack discussion about Monster Island, which has the term "savage" to describe one species of lizardman natives on the island and I got threadbanned for attempting to correct some facts about it without stepping into any commentary about the racism of the statement. It is not relevant to Mythic Polynesia.

edit: you can read my comments https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mythras-mythic-polynesia.904650/post-24602331 and https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mythras-mythic-polynesia.904650/post-24602492 and my threadban reasoning https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mythras-mythic-polynesia.904650/post-24610906

Thanks, I think I'll work a bit on my reading comprehension skills again ;)

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 09, 2023, 04:32:09 PM
At this point, it's probably useful to recentre the discussion. I did not follow the hubbub over at Twitter, but the problem originally didn't seem to be about historical fidelity,

It's very telling that... And IMO complete purposeful chicanery. In theory, what we have here are two very different arguments but both are now part of the same 'woke scolding' tactic which was evident on another forum regarding the same topic.

On one hand, we have an absolute nobody called 'Liam' who spat the dummy. Then subsequently we then have a couple of woke-scold boobies latched on to that (that's predictable of course).

While all of a 'sudden' some more boobies start to make hugely illogical leaps jabbering about 'real-world harm'. No proof was ever provided when I asked for it incidentally. Then the same woke scolds try another tactic by suddenly introducing 'scholastic integrity' yada yada... Even after the disclaimer was clearly shown.

So excuse my skepticism from any poster(s) who suddenly want to 'chat' here about this topic (if they came from the rpgpub). Don't get me wrong there are some cool peeps over there but there are a few VERY woke dweebs too.

Now, if someone wanted to have a genuine discussion about the accuracy of M.P. that's one thing, and assuming it wasn't some wokey-cokey with an agenda. Personally, I've read MP and I'm fine with the info as is (especially after reading the disclaimer). It 'aint no historical text and they've taken some liberties to make it a good game setting. I couldn't say how accurate it is in terms of real-world history, but I don't really care either (how many other RPGs take liberties I wonder - Oh, all of them!). I have got a lot of Celtic RPG material as well, and I can tell you a lot of it is not very accurate. Who cares? Just enjoy the game.

But if people are 'genuinely' unhappy with M.P. that's one thing. If you bought it on Drivthru just get your money back. IMHO, I don't think it's possible to have a conversation about its accuracy now as it's been so 'baked' into the ultra-woke arguments brought up by Liam and a few other boobies. That's just my opinion...

My only real concern about MP is that some dweebs are trying to get it censored, changed, or revised by putting pressure on TDM. For no other reason than because they are ultra-wokes. Anyway, while it appears to have been taken off DT for reasons unknown at this point. You can still get this fine gaming supplement from their site :):
https://the-design-mechanism.mybigcommerce.com/mythic-polynesia-pdf/

Kia orana! My health be with you!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 09, 2023, 07:30:32 PM
Now, if someone wanted to have a genuine discussion about the accuracy of M.P. that's one thing, and assuming it wasn't some wokey-cokey with an agenda. Personally, I've read MP and I'm fine with the info as is (especially after reading the disclaimer). It 'aint no historical text and they've taken some liberties to make it a good game setting. I couldn't say how accurate it is in terms of real-world history, but I don't really care either (how many other RPGs take liberties I wonder - Oh, all of them!). I have got a lot of Celtic RPG material as well, and I can tell you a lot of it is not very accurate. Who cares? Just enjoy the game.

The Mythic series is like the old GURPS historical series, it's marketed as having some historical fidelity. Everybody knows these books aren't totally accurate.
Mythic Polynesia is accurate, at an RPG supplement level, if you're not after Maori material.

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 10, 2023, 03:30:49 AM
The Mythic series is like the old GURPS historical series, it's marketed as having some historical fidelity. Everybody knows these books aren't totally accurate.
Mythic Polynesia is accurate, at an RPG supplement level, if you're not after Maori material.

Cool, you don't like it... You said. Of course, I really like the supplement I'm going to have a lot of fun with it when I get around to running it.

But other people seemed to like it on DT, as it had a four-star rating and that's even after two troll 1-star reviews from ultra-wokes who just blubbed about 'real world harm' and stereotypes, etc.

Kia orana! My health be with you!

Just for the record, when I read about TDM getting crap over this book, I immediately bought a copy from them. A move that's somewhat in-character for me. I don't believe they went into the project with other than good intentions, and I hope they don't have any serious issues as a result of the online fracas.

Quote from: Baron on February 24, 2023, 02:47:26 AM
Just for the record, when I read about TDM getting crap over this book, I immediately bought a copy from them. A move that's somewhat in-character for me. I don't believe they went into the project with other than good intentions, and I hope they don't have any serious issues as a result of the online fracas.

I did the same thing. I bought the book more out of support. And I also thought that there was no bad intent in the making of the book.

I also bought a copy. Polynesia ain't my bag as a setting, but they deserve the support and its an interesting read.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel on February 24, 2023, 08:55:08 AM
I also bought a copy. Polynesia ain't my bag as a setting, but they deserve the support and its an interesting read.

Exactly... Always do the opposite of what the woke scolds say. I bought Red Room's 'Men'. I'll never play it as I don't really like comedy in my RPGs. It was just a gesture of support for them.

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 09, 2023, 12:30:02 PMIt's that when you buy an RPG book based on a setting, in this case the mythic past of Polynesia, you expect the book to actually implement that to some degree and show knowledge of the myths and cultures, otherwise why buy a historical supplement?

Ah, so the people who are concerned want more rules for cannibalism, wiping out neighbouring tribes, and decimating island ecologies?

Hmm? Oh yeah, silly me. Just the Noble Savage tropes, not the grimy parts of history.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 24, 2023, 10:49:53 AM

Quote from: Carfilhiot on February 09, 2023, 12:30:02 PMIt's that when you buy an RPG book based on a setting, in this case the mythic past of Polynesia, you expect the book to actually implement that to some degree and show knowledge of the myths and cultures, otherwise why buy a historical supplement?

Ah, so the people who are concerned want more rules for cannibalism, wiping out neighbouring tribes, and decimating island ecologies?

Hmm? Oh yeah, silly me. Just the Noble Savage tropes, not the grimy parts of history.

And don't forget infanticide as many of them wanted boys instead of daughters as they could grow up into 'male' warriors. Times were different back then! lol