One thing I'm starting to dislike running OSR adventures* is the insane amount of treasure and magical items that you find. In addition, the more I read the DMG, the more I feel they were just too generous with treasure and had to come up of endless ways of spending it (training, upkeep, research, rust monster, disenchanter, etc.).
(* I've been running DCC, LotFP and BFRPG adventures)
One important caveat: I'm talking about old school games because it has been a while since I've played 5e or other games. I don't remember this being a big issue then, but this could have many reasons (for example, Curse of Strahd is not full of magic items, but it also gives you lots of gold and few things to buy).
Anyway, I have three main issues with treasure in OSR adventures.
Magic items
There are just too many to keep track of. My current party has around 3-4 magic items per player at level 5. Each item has different powers, and simple "+1 swords" are getting rarer as each adventure prefers having unique, interesting items (I cannot blame them).
I prefer something grittier, with a Sword & Sorcery vibe, which makes things worse. Conan never gets too many magic items, but even the Fellowship of the Ring gets no more than one or two per character.
Come to think of it, not even in the highest of high fantasy books a "medium level" party has that many magic items. In AD&D, a paladin is LIMITED to TEN magic items!
The problem is that giving away fewer magic weapons and armor leaves little room for improvement of old school fighters (and paladins), for example.
Earning and spending
My PCs are level 5 and don't have much to do with their money, unless I start charging for small expenses, note keeping, etc. At least now it will you start affecting their encumbrance (and they find cleric willing to cure a curse for a steep price).
Conan, Grey Mouser etc. would spend some money drinking and gambling, but I can't force the PCs to do the same. Even Conan didn't buy a kingdom - he took one!
In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of any fantasy hero counting coins. There is one notable exception (Geralt of Rivia), but most heroes are either broke or "rich" with things that are not money: followers, titles, lands, etc.
Gold standard
I have tried defending the gold standard before.
Now, I'm finding increasingly difficult to wrap my head around the idea that a ONE POUND silver dagger costs THREE pounds of gold, while simultaneously making gold TEN times the value of silver.
Maybe you could pretend that gold and silver are so common that one week of food (or just one garlic) costs half a pound of gold, but you occasionally find small pieces of jewelry that are worth two to ten pounds of gold.
That assumes everything has some exquisite craftsmanship... or some other reasoning.
Of course, changing these absurd weights will you make it too easy to carry a fortune without affecting encumbrance.
Solutions
For a S&S vibe, I could replace some magic items by "masterwork" items of ancient civilizations, maybe with +1 to hit OR damage. Alternatively, we could go the Game of Thrones route and make different qualities of weapons. "Castle forged" swords are high quality, equivalent to +1 swords, and Valyrian Steel are +2 or +3, without any enchantments, just because the material/crafting is superior.
It would be appropriate and flavorful, and fighters could identify them immediately (without the need of a spell or specialist) - and they'd still get customization through feats.
Old school D&D has enough things to spend money on. The problem is my PCs are hoarders. A good solution I've seen elsewhere is giving XP for money spent. This will give them a reason to drink, gamble, etc. And maybe you can occasionally find a trainer that doubles the amount of XP you get for the money spent.
The silver standard is a good solution for the value of gold. I'd also reduce the amount of treasure altogether, maybe ten times - you could reduce the XP requirements accordingly.
NOTES:
DMG and treasure
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/06/ad-dmg-cover-to-cover-part-iii-pages-23.html
Gold x silver
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-weight-of-gold-is-od-right-again.html
My question: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?
Treasure Type Table: Individual Patrol Lair
d6 Value Value Value Value
01-02 Salvage (low) d10sp xd3 xd10
03-04 Loot (average) d12 x10sp xd6 xd20
05-06 Treasure (high) d12 x100sp xd12 xd30
This table replaces for me the typical multi entry tables in most games. I prefer to roll the amount and then make up the hoard with trade goods, supplies, artwork, etc. The least amount is going to be in coins.
I have converted to a silver piece economy where the typical peasant earns 1 SP per day. Not in coin mind you.
For magic items I use:
Enchantment Duration:
Charms: These require expensive components and difficult rituals.
May either be:
1. 1 use or 1 day, until dawn or dusk
2. Charm Spell Dice Magic Focus or Spell Casting Charm
Minor Magic Items: 1 moon, a month or 1 season, 3 months. These require expensive components and difficult rituals.
Moderate Magic Items: 1 year or until next solstice of winter. These require rare and expensive components, long enchantment times, and difficult rituals.
Major Magic Items: Permanent items or potent effects. These require extremely rare and expensive components, long enchantment times, and difficult rituals.
Each magic item requires it's own unique creation ritual.
When the magic expires, the item may be recharged using 1/100 of the initial cost and 1/10 of imbuement time. This reduction can not be reduce below one.
Enchantment Effects:
Charms: +1 and Limited effects. Magic Weapons: +1-2. Magic Armor: +1. +1 to +3 to save from a specific spell.
Minor Magic Items: +1 and small effects. Magic Weapons: +1. Magic Armor: +1. +2 to save +5 from a specific spell.
Moderate Magic Items: +2 and medium effects. Magic Weapons: +2-3. Magic Armor: +2. Save with advantage from a specific spell.
Major Magic Items: +3 and large effects. Magic Weapons: +4-5. Magic Armor: +3. Complete protection from a specific spell.
Recharging magic items requires magic components and money. So that gives a reason for why they are limited and why go on an adventure. Also all enchantable items must be made of the finest quality, with the required quality increasing for high powered enchantments.
So Swords & Wizardry (based on OD&D) has a specific way of generating treasure based on the value of the hoard. There are three tiers 100 gp, 1,000 gp, and 5,000 gp.
So the way it works is that you set a treasure value. Say 6,534 gp. There is a 10% of a 5,000 gp swap out. If you roll it then roll on another table to see what you get in terms of gems and magic items. The same for each 1,000 gp value. A 10% chance of a 1,000 gp swap out. And finally a 10% chance of a 100 gp swap out.
The default for Swords & Wizardry for a swap out is it results in a 90% chance of a gem and a 10% chance of a magic item.
The beauty of this setup is that is easily tweaked for how common magic is in your setting. Also, it is easily tweaked if you decided to use the silver standard like I do.
The downside is that there is a lot of rolling.
For my Majestic Fantasy RPG which is based on Swords & Wizardry. I changed it to the following.
Instead of a 10% chance of a swap there is a 25% chance of a swap.
Instead of 1 in 20 chance of a magic item being in the treasure. There is a 75% chance of a magic item. Along with a 15% chance of multiple items of a lesser tier.
The way I figured this out was to code up my tables for Inspiration Pad Pro and generated 100s of treasure hordes of the same value and see if it was something I would have come up with on my own. I kept tweaking the trade out odds and the trade out tables until it started to look like what I would have come up with for that value of treasure.
So for Swords & Wizardry for a value of 6,534 gp you got this for 20 tries.
1-> Jewelry worth 50 gp, Jewelry worth 73 gp , Gem worth 118 gp, 6293 gp
2-> 6534 gp
3-> Jewelry worth 90 gp , Gem worth 2 gp, 6442 gp
4-> 6534 gp
5-> 6534 gp
6-> 6534 gp
7-> Gem worth 1200 gp, 5334 gp
8-> Jewelry worth 126 gp, 6408 gp
9-> 6534 gp
10-> 6534 gp
11-> Gem worth 200 gp, Gem worth 5 gp, 6329 gp
12-> Gem worth 22 gp, 6512 gp
13-> Jewelry worth 123 gp, 6411 gp
14-> 6534 gp
15-> Jewelry worth 2 gp , Gem worth 3 gp, 6529 gp
16-> Charm of Magic Missile , Jewelry worth 1800 gp, 4634 gp
17-> 6534 gp
18-> 6534 gp
19-> Gem worth 10 gp, 6524 gp
20-> 6534 gp
With mine for 6,534d (1d = sp) I get
1-> 3 Bolts with +1 damage only , Scroll of Sticks to Snakes , Potion of Plant Control, 9 marks (2160d), 3864d
2-> Scroll of Detect Magic , Potion of Flying, Potion of Diminution, 2 crowns (640d), 6750d
3-> Scroll of Purify Food and Drink , Potion of Heroism, Potion of Healing, 7 crowns (2240d), 2587d
4-> Potion of Undead Control, 1 crowns (320d), 922d
5-> Scroll of Magic Missile , Potion of Extra Healing, 6 crowns (1920d), 2871d
6-> Charm of Cure Light Wounds , Brass Anklet with Lapis Lazuli Gem (14d), Bone Comb (1d), 3 marks (720d), 5194d
7-> Potion of Gaseous Form, Potion of Healing, Potion of Gaseous Form, 11 marks (2640d), 5252d
8-> Manual of Influence, 1 Arrows with +2 damage only, 2 Darts with +2 damage only, 1 crowns (320d), 860d
9-> +1 Medium Shield , Charm of Sleep, Scroll of Charm Person, Scroll of Purify Food and Drink , Potion of Healing, Potion of Healing, Potion of Heroism , Brass Pendent (1d) , Ruby Gem (1000d), 2 crowns (640d), 5719d
10-> Cursed Battle Axe causes wearer to run away from combat., 1 Bolts with +2 damage only , Potion of Levitation, Potion of Clairaudience, Potion of Heroism, Potion of Healing, 8 marks (1920d), 2679d
11-> Scroll of Detect Evil , Potion of Gaseous Form, Potion of Healing , Rock Crystal Gem (5d), 6 crowns (1920d), 2268d
12-> Small Dagger with +1 damage only , Scroll of Light, Scroll of Read Languages, Charm of Command , Potion of Healing, Potion of Healing, Potion of Healing , Jasper Gem (25d), 6 crowns (1920d), 2837d
13-> +1 Shortsword, Broadsword with +1 versus Dragons, 11 marks (2640d), 3190d
14-> Scroll of Purify Food and Drink , Potion of Healing, Potion of Gaseous Form, Potion of Healing, 7 crowns (2240d), 5576d
15-> War Hammer with Light 30' radius , Potion of Animal Control , Gold Ring (180d) , Rock Crystal Gem (5d), 7 crowns (2240d), 4340d
16-> Charm of Cure Light Wounds, Charm of Sleep , Silver Tiara with Religious Carvings (100d), 7 crowns (2240d), 2558d
17-> +1 Small Shield, 11 marks (2640d), 2773d
18-> +1 Small Dagger, 12 marks (2880d), 4993d
19-> Charm of Extension III, Scroll of Charm Person, 1 crowns (320d), 1033d
20-> Large Dagger with Light 15' radius, 1 Darts with +3 damage only, Dart with Return Weapon , Scroll of Monster Summoning VI, Scroll of Magic Missile, Scroll of Shield , Potion of Healing, Potion of Diminution, Potion of Climbing, Potion of Healing, Potion of Climbing , Bone Tiara (12d), 395d
For some this may be too magic rich but like I said, tweak the trade outs to get the exact mix you want.
If you want to play with this yourself then Inspiration Pad Pro is free from nBos.
https://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro
My swords & wizardry table ipt file is here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ymr-kTXN-AGkYsLmizKakDVSMvt_oXas/view?usp=sharing
My Majestic Fantasy table ipt file is here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TE0_7oNuCfLoebqaH8BS-PEtz-e3HcQK/view?usp=sharing
I also made variants for personal items (work in progress) and magic shops.
You can go here for links on how I price out things in silver pieces for equipment, herbs, potions, magic items, etc.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/p/stuff-in-attic.html
PM me if you would like a draft copy of my treasure rules for my Majestic Fantasy RPG.
In my experience, XP for gold spent solves several problems. Both within the fiction on the game and on a purely mechanical level it creates a reason for the character to risk death pulling money out of some awful hole. The characters are eternally broke, and the players want to level up their characters. If you actually have useful things to buy, only awarding XP for gold wasted can force players to really consider their characters long-term financial plans. Do you want to level up, or do you want to build that keep?
The solution to excessive magic items is consumables. I give out a lot of one-use items that mimic spells or spell-like effects. In place of magic weapons and armor I tend to give out items that grant temporary bonuses to weapons and/or armor. i.e. enchanted oil that grants and item +2 for 6 turns. This way permanent magic items become precious, and you aren't faced with players tossing away magic swords like rubbish. Which has always disturbed me. Throwing away Sting for Glamdring just feels wrong.
Quote from: swzl on June 23, 2023, 12:12:40 PM
Treasure Type Table: Individual Patrol Lair
d6 Value Value Value Value
01-02 Salvage (low) d10sp xd3 xd10
03-04 Loot (average) d12 x10sp xd6 xd20
05-06 Treasure (high) d12 x100sp xd12 xd30
This table replaces for me the typical multi entry tables in most games. I prefer to roll the amount and then make up the hoard with trade goods, supplies, artwork, etc. The least amount is going to be in coins.
I have converted to a silver piece economy where the typical peasant earns 1 SP per day. Not in coin mind you.
Neat, I like something in the same ballpark.
Come to think of it, it would be easy to make a d20 table of treasure types, once you get the value: trade goods, magic, art, gold, silver, cooper, gems, etc.
Quote from: estar on June 23, 2023, 12:38:06 PM
So Swords & Wizardry (based on OD&D) has a specific way of generating treasure based on the value of the hoard. There are three tiers 100 gp, 1,000 gp, and 5,000 gp.
So the way it works is that you set a treasure value. Say 6,534 gp. There is a 10% of a 5,000 gp swap out. If you roll it then roll on another table to see what you get in terms of gems and magic items. The same for each 1,000 gp value. A 10% chance of a 1,000 gp swap out. And finally a 10% chance of a 100 gp swap out.
The default for Swords & Wizardry for a swap out is it results in a 90% chance of a gem and a 10% chance of a magic item.
This is pretty neat TBH. If I understand it right, you could reduce rolls, doing:
1% chance of an item worth 5,000 gp.
9% chance of gems worth 5,000 gp.
90% of something else.
Then you could roll for each 1000 individually, but to make things faster I might try (not the same probabilities but good enough for me):
6% chance of an item worth 1,000 gp.
60% chance of gems worth 1,000 gp.
34% of something else.
And the same for the last final 100 gp.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
Magic items
There are just too many to keep track of. My current party has around 3-4 magic items per player at level 5. Each item has different powers, and simple "+1 swords" are getting rarer as each adventure prefers having unique, interesting items (I cannot blame them).
You're not supposed to let them keep them.
Look, this is, always has been, and always be a dilemma about magic items. It's fun to get new ones. But when you have too many, they become valued less. And part of the fun of getting new ones is that they are valued. So this in term diminishes the value of getting new ones.
DM advice has long consisting of finger wagging warning DMs that they need to be stingy or else. And it's pretty easy to see why. If you give out zero magic items, that's no fun. They may be highly valuable, but you never get any. And if you give out infinity magic items, that's no fun either, since they become functionally value-less--the pain in the ass of tracking them exceeds the fun they bring to the game. Sounds like that may be the point where you're at.
"Stingy" in this contest refers to hitting that sweet spot in the middle. The traditional advice is something like "It's like a spectrum, man, not a binary, maan. And you need to like, find the right balance maaan. And like, we've all got different preferences, maaaan. So where you find your balance is not going to be where I find mine, maaaaan." And that's full of irrefutable truths that amount to no actual useful information or actionable advice.
So allow me to humbly suggest that this is a completely idiotic way to look at or approach the dilemma. And it's almost guaranteed to make you run into the problem you're running into. The tastes of the audience the modules were written for may vary from your own tastes, and so the odds the source material and the player will ever line up exactly is pretty much always going to be a long shot. That's what makes this approach inherently moronic.
The way I look at it is easy come, easy go. Reducing the number of magic items players get is only one way you can reduce devaluation and reduce tracking. Another way is to reduce how long PCs keep those items. And the game provides a number of different mechanisms for magic items to flow out of the game.
1. Training costs. Especially at those lower levels, it's nearly impossible to pay those training costs. But the GP sale values of magic items are pretty high and make it easy to cover those costs. A 1st level character is going to be more than happy to give up a +1 sword in exchange for being able to level up.
2. If you look at those same old school modules that you think give out too much treasure, I think far more obvious is that if the party of the size and level the module is recommended for tries to fight everything in there, it will be a TPK. You have to run. And I know some DMs find it so refreshing that a party ever run, they handwave them getting away. Wouldn't want monsters to kill the party with a round of free attacks. No. That would discourage them from running in the future and would make the game a juvenile hackfest. Well, actually the 1E Evasion & Pursuit section of the DMG does detail out some ways the party can get away, especially if the monster has a faster movement rate. And sometimes you just got to throw down swag. For semi-intelligent monsters and lower, food is the perfect "enemy bait" (ah, Legend of Zelda). For low intelligence, it's bright and shiny objects, quantity over quality. And for human intelligence and above, you have to drop the good shit.
3. Item saves. Yeah, usually magic items are pretty tough, especially when used according to manufacturer specs. A shield used to block gets an extra +5 to the save for using it for the very thing it's made to do, for instance. But there are extraordinary attacks out there, fire, acid, lightning, cold, a giant's fist, falls, etc.
4. I know of at least some old-school adventures that actually has things like an encounter with a high level evil wizard who just takes a magic item from the party. Magic, thievery, it's not that hard to come up with encounters that do this. Evil Wizard casts Fear, orc minions attack any party member who makes their safe while Evil Wizard queues up a Hold Person. Incapacitate, get the item (thanks to Detect Magic he knows exactly what to grab), then get out of there.
5. Environmental hazards and pitfalls can also result in the loss of items. Plenty of old school modules have dungeons that are partially flooded. There's a good chance you'll lose some shit if you try wading or swimming through the water. Pits. Lots and lots of pits. You can lose a grip on shit, or have shit fall out of your pocket when you fall into pits. Falling is also one of the perils that can trigger an item save.
6. Loyalty and henchmen. Giving a valuable item, a bonus, or especially a magic item to a henchmen comes with a loyalty boost. And besides, it kind of benefits you a lot to have well-outfitted henchmen.
Now I know there are objections to this. But muh agency. As early as 3E, there are certain expectations about the number of magic items you need to have for the CR system to function properly. And also, I think Magic-Users have to give half of a testicle or something when creating a magic item, so players feel like they have some inalienable right to those magic items. Or that may even just be a preference. Like batman is just not the same character without his utility belt. Players may feel that way about their character's magic items. They've become part of the costume, part of the character, and even part of the character's niche or function within the party dynamic.
The problem is, no matter how preferred that may be, it leads you to a place of zero fun due to absence of items, zero fun due to abundance of items, or near-zero fun because the source material didn't strike the exact balance you would like. If that's where the path takes you, it's the wrong path to take, regardless of how preferred the path is thought to be. It's checkmate in 3 moves. Not everyone's got the eyes for it. Not having the eyes doesn't keep a player or group from having certain preferences. But mate is mate, mate. It's a loser of a path no matter what players like or dislike. There just needs to be a treasure/magic-item flow both in and out of the game.
Quote
Gold standard
I have tried defending the gold standard before.
Now, I'm finding increasingly difficult to wrap my head around the idea that a ONE POUND silver dagger costs THREE pounds of gold, while simultaneously making gold TEN times the value of silver.
Maybe you could pretend that gold and silver are so common that one week of food (or just one garlic) costs half a pound of gold, but you occasionally find small pieces of jewelry that are worth two to ten pounds of gold.
That assumes everything has some exquisite craftsmanship... or some other reasoning.
Of course, changing these absurd weights will you make it too easy to carry a fortune without affecting encumbrance.
tion: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?
I don't get it. You're willing to allow for certain excuses and assumptions. Just not the ones that actually solve the problem?
How about one that's actually in the rulebooks. Encumbrance is not weight. Never has been. A gold piece is not 1/10 of a pound. 30 gp is not three pounds of gold.
1E lists the enc value of a relatively short list of items. I think RC D&D is probably a bit more comprehensive at that. So you've got game data. And you've got Google, to try to find out what the actual weight of such objects were way back in the middle ages. What I've found when I tried to compare those things is that items in D&D are usually 2 to 5 times the encumbrance that you would expect from a simple 10 cn = 1 lb conversion. And the 1E PHB tells you exactly why that is. Because Enc is not just weight. It's also factoring bulk, balance, and all those things that makes something hard to carry.
Being that the values come in 2-5 times higher than what you'd expect, it becomes clearer that those other factors are stacked on top of weight. It's not like, "Oh, this box of macaroni weighs 2-pounds, so 20 enc... oh, but it has a convenient little handle making it easier to carry. Let's call this one just 17 enc. But that 2-pound sack of feathers, that's big and bulky and has no handle, so we'll call that one 25 enc." It's not like 2 pound items are going to gravitate around 20 enc like a center. It's that they're going to have a minimum 20 enc, PLUS additional amounts if they're hard to carry for some reason.
So yeah, coins definitely not 1.6 oz
Moreover, the 1E PHB's note on coins assumes the coins are roughly of similar size and weight. But of course gold is about twice as dense as most other metals. So what does roughly similar size and weight mean in that context? The most obvious thing is that gold has slightly more weight but slightly less volume than most other coins. What does slightly mean? By the least amount that is logically consistent. But the point is, the weights of coins necessarily vary if you're going by the book. I only bring this up to emphasize that not only is the 10 cn = 1 lb not the one true BtB interpretation, it's not even in the range of possible BtB interpretations. And I'm not saying this insight necessarily solves all problems. It has for me. I'm just saying I've never seen anyone make the same sort of complaint you're making here without needing to hang their hat on a conversation that is not actually a part of the rules. Just saying. Maybe look more in this directly for ways to make the numbers make sense.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
My question: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?
Why are they hoarding coin? Are they Dwarves? Gygax explains how to handle it:
QuoteWhat society can exist without revenues? What better means of assuring revenues than taxation, and all of the names used in the title of this section are synonymous with taxes - but if it is called something different perhaps the populace won't take too much umbrage at having to pay and pay and pay . . . It is important in most campaigns to take excess monies away from player characters and taxation is one of the better means of accomplishing this end. The form and frequency of taxation depends upon the locale and the social structure. Duties are typically paid on goods brought into a country or subdivision thereof, so any furs, tapestries, etc. brought into a town for sale will probably be subject to duty. Excises are typically sums paid to belong to a particular profession or practice a certain calling; in addition, on excise can be levied against foreign currency, for example, in order to change it into the less remarkable coin of the realm. Fees can be levied for lust about any reason - entering a city gate is a good one for non-citizens.
Tariffs are much the same as duties, but let us suppose that this is levied against only certain items when purchased - rather o surtax, or it can be used against goods not covered by the duty list. Taxes are typically paid only by residents and citizens of the municipality and include those sums for upkeep of roads and streets, walls gates, and municipal expenses for administration and services. Taxation is not necessarily an annual affair, for special taxes can be levied whenever needful, particularly upon sales, services, and foreigners in general. Tithes are principally religious taxation, although there is no prohibition against the combination of the from all sums brought into the community by any resident, the monies going to the religious organization sponsored by the community or to that of the character's choosing, at your option. (Of course, any religious organizations within a municipality will have to pay heavy taxes unless they are officially recognized by the authorities.) Tolls, finally, are sums paid for the use of a road, bridge, ferry, etc. They are paid according to the numbers of persons, animals, carts wagons, and possibly even materials transported.
As D/GM YOU control how much coin the party gets and how much they keep, not the players. First thing with any published module is to go through it and adjust it to your liking. Change the monsters up, cut the listed coin in half (at least) and remove all magic items.
Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.
Conan and other S&S characters didn't strut around dripping gold and magic items, and neither should the players' PCs if you want to maintain a S&S tone. Your campaign must be entertaining for you, or unless you're being paid as a professional GM, why run it?
Quote from: Dark Train on June 23, 2023, 12:42:06 PM
The solution to excessive magic items is consumables. I give out a lot of one-use items that mimic spells or spell-like effects. In place of magic weapons and armor I tend to give out items that grant temporary bonuses to weapons and/or armor. i.e. enchanted oil that grants and item +2 for 6 turns. This way permanent magic items become precious, and you aren't faced with players tossing away magic swords like rubbish. Which has always disturbed me. Throwing away Sting for Glamdring just feels wrong.
A good idea indeed.
Quote from: Lunamancer on June 23, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
You're not supposed to let them keep them.
Look, this is, always has been, and always be a dilemma about magic items. It's fun to get new ones. But when you have too many, they become valued less. And part of the fun of getting new ones is that they are valued. So this in term diminishes the value of getting new ones.
DM advice has long consisting of finger wagging warning DMs that they need to be stingy or else. And it's pretty easy to see why. If you give out zero magic items, that's no fun. They may be highly valuable, but you never get any. And if you give out infinity magic items, that's no fun either, since they become functionally value-less--the pain in the ass of tracking them exceeds the fun they bring to the game. Sounds like that may be the point where you're at.
"Stingy" in this contest refers to hitting that sweet spot in the middle. The traditional advice is something like "It's like a spectrum, man, not a binary, maan. And you need to like, find the right balance maaan. And like, we've all got different preferences, maaaan. So where you find your balance is not going to be where I find mine, maaaaan." And that's full of irrefutable truths that amount to no actual useful information or actionable advice.
So allow me to humbly suggest that this is a completely idiotic way to look at or approach the dilemma. And it's almost guaranteed to make you run into the problem you're running into. The tastes of the audience the modules were written for may vary from your own tastes, and so the odds the source material and the player will ever line up exactly is pretty much always going to be a long shot. That's what makes this approach inherently moronic.
Agreed. The DMG seems to suggest repeatedly that you should be stingy/keep PCs on a tight leash, but this isn't practical advice, especially because I'm running published modules.
Quote from: Lunamancer on June 23, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
The way I look at it is easy come, easy go. Reducing the number of magic items players get is only one way you can reduce devaluation and reduce tracking. Another way is to reduce how long PCs keep those items. And the game provides a number of different mechanisms for magic items to flow out of the game.
1. Training costs. Especially at those lower levels, it's nearly impossible to pay those training costs. But the GP sale values of magic items are pretty high and make it easy to cover those costs. A 1st level character is going to be more than happy to give up a +1 sword in exchange for being able to level up.
2. If you look at those same old school modules that you think give out too much treasure, I think far more obvious is that if the party of the size and level the module is recommended for tries to fight everything in there, it will be a TPK. You have to run. And I know some DMs find it so refreshing that a party ever run, they handwave them getting away. Wouldn't want monsters to kill the party with a round of free attacks. No. That would discourage them from running in the future and would make the game a juvenile hackfest. Well, actually the 1E Evasion & Pursuit section of the DMG does detail out some ways the party can get away, especially if the monster has a faster movement rate. And sometimes you just got to throw down swag. For semi-intelligent monsters and lower, food is the perfect "enemy bait" (ah, Legend of Zelda). For low intelligence, it's bright and shiny objects, quantity over quality. And for human intelligence and above, you have to drop the good shit.
3. Item saves. Yeah, usually magic items are pretty tough, especially when used according to manufacturer specs. A shield used to block gets an extra +5 to the save for using it for the very thing it's made to do, for instance. But there are extraordinary attacks out there, fire, acid, lightning, cold, a giant's fist, falls, etc.
4. I know of at least some old-school adventures that actually has things like an encounter with a high level evil wizard who just takes a magic item from the party. Magic, thievery, it's not that hard to come up with encounters that do this. Evil Wizard casts Fear, orc minions attack any party member who makes their safe while Evil Wizard queues up a Hold Person. Incapacitate, get the item (thanks to Detect Magic he knows exactly what to grab), then get out of there.
5. Environmental hazards and pitfalls can also result in the loss of items. Plenty of old school modules have dungeons that are partially flooded. There's a good chance you'll lose some shit if you try wading or swimming through the water. Pits. Lots and lots of pits. You can lose a grip on shit, or have shit fall out of your pocket when you fall into pits. Falling is also one of the perils that can trigger an item save.
6. Loyalty and henchmen. Giving a valuable item, a bonus, or especially a magic item to a henchmen comes with a loyalty boost. And besides, it kind of benefits you a lot to have well-outfitted henchmen.
I like these!
However, I didn't find the modules I ran particularly hard for the amount of treasure.
Giving a magic item to a henchmen is cool both in flavor and in practice - if there is a TPK, the henchmen can become a new PC!
Quote from: Lunamancer on June 23, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
I don't get it. You're willing to allow for certain excuses and assumptions. Just not the ones that actually solve the problem?
How about one that's actually in the rulebooks. Encumbrance is not weight. Never has been. A gold piece is not 1/10 of a pound. 30 gp is not three pounds of gold.
1E lists the enc value of a relatively short list of items. I think RC D&D is probably a bit more comprehensive at that. So you've got game data. And you've got Google, to try to find out what the actual weight of such objects were way back in the middle ages. What I've found when I tried to compare those things is that items in D&D are usually 2 to 5 times the encumbrance that you would expect from a simple 10 cn = 1 lb conversion. And the 1E PHB tells you exactly why that is. Because Enc is not just weight. It's also factoring bulk, balance, and all those things that makes something hard to carry.
Being that the values come in 2-5 times higher than what you'd expect, it becomes clearer that those other factors are stacked on top of weight. It's not like, "Oh, this box of macaroni weighs 2-pounds, so 20 enc... oh, but it has a convenient little handle making it easier to carry. Let's call this one just 17 enc. But that 2-pound sack of feathers, that's big and bulky and has no handle, so we'll call that one 25 enc." It's not like 2 pound items are going to gravitate around 20 enc like a center. It's that they're going to have a minimum 20 enc, PLUS additional amounts if they're hard to carry for some reason.
So yeah, coins definitely not 1.6 oz
Moreover, the 1E PHB's note on coins assumes the coins are roughly of similar size and weight. But of course gold is about twice as dense as most other metals. So what does roughly similar size and weight mean in that context? The most obvious thing is that gold has slightly more weight but slightly less volume than most other coins. What does slightly mean? By the least amount that is logically consistent. But the point is, the weights of coins necessarily vary if you're going by the book. I only bring this up to emphasize that not only is the 10 cn = 1 lb not the one true BtB interpretation, it's not even in the range of possible BtB interpretations. And I'm not saying this insight necessarily solves all problems. It has for me. I'm just saying I've never seen anyone make the same sort of complaint you're making here without needing to hang their hat on a conversation that is not actually a part of the rules. Just saying. Maybe look more in this directly for ways to make the numbers make sense.
Hum... not sure. A dagger to a pound sounds reasonable, most weapon weights are two/three times what you'd expect at most. But let's say 50 gp to a pound - FIVE times less valuable than I assumed (and I'd say coins are not particularly hard to carry for their weight - on the contrary, carrying 10 pounds of feathers around could be trickier, as you mentioned!). Still, costs more than half a pound of gold to add one pound of silver (still 10 times less valuable per encumbrance) to a dagger.
But you're right that I assumed one gold piece as 1/10 of a pound (I was pretty sure it was spelled out is some TSR book). Thinking of encumbrance as some abstract value solves and explain LOTS of things... why the 2H sword and polearm are so "heavy" for example. The problem with abstraction is that it leaves you with other problems (for example, shouldn't be so hard for your donkey to carry ten swords for your party, and the DM has to come up with the "weight" of various items with no formula or any reference to actual weight). But yeah, it makes more sense than actual pounds.
None of those tables ever include livestock or foodstuffs.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
My question: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?
Why are they hoarding coin? Are they Dwarves? Gygax explains how to handle it:
QuoteWhat society can exist without revenues? What better means of assuring revenues than taxation, and all of the names used in the title of this section are synonymous with taxes - but if it is called something different perhaps the populace won't take too much umbrage at having to pay and pay and pay . . . It is important in most campaigns to take excess monies away from player characters and taxation is one of the better means of accomplishing this end. The form and frequency of taxation depends upon the locale and the social structure. Duties are typically paid on goods brought into a country or subdivision thereof, so any furs, tapestries, etc. brought into a town for sale will probably be subject to duty. Excises are typically sums paid to belong to a particular profession or practice a certain calling; in addition, on excise can be levied against foreign currency, for example, in order to change it into the less remarkable coin of the realm. Fees can be levied for lust about any reason - entering a city gate is a good one for non-citizens.
Tariffs are much the same as duties, but let us suppose that this is levied against only certain items when purchased - rather o surtax, or it can be used against goods not covered by the duty list. Taxes are typically paid only by residents and citizens of the municipality and include those sums for upkeep of roads and streets, walls gates, and municipal expenses for administration and services. Taxation is not necessarily an annual affair, for special taxes can be levied whenever needful, particularly upon sales, services, and foreigners in general. Tithes are principally religious taxation, although there is no prohibition against the combination of the from all sums brought into the community by any resident, the monies going to the religious organization sponsored by the community or to that of the character's choosing, at your option. (Of course, any religious organizations within a municipality will have to pay heavy taxes unless they are officially recognized by the authorities.) Tolls, finally, are sums paid for the use of a road, bridge, ferry, etc. They are paid according to the numbers of persons, animals, carts wagons, and possibly even materials transported.
As D/GM YOU control how much coin the party gets and how much they keep, not the players. First thing with any published module is to go through it and adjust it to your liking. Change the monsters up, cut the listed coin in half (at least) and remove all magic items.
Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.
Conan and other S&S characters didn't strut around dripping gold and magic items, and neither should the players' PCs if you want to maintain a S&S tone. Your campaign must be entertaining for you, or unless you're being paid as a professional GM, why run it?
Taxation is theft!
But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:
"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."
"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).
As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.
On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM
As D/GM YOU control how much coin the party gets and how much they keep, not the players. First thing with any published module is to go through it and adjust it to your liking. Change the monsters up, cut the listed coin in half (at least) and remove all magic items.
Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.
Conan and other S&S characters didn't strut around dripping gold and magic items, and neither should the players' PCs if you want to maintain a S&S tone. Your campaign must be entertaining for you, or unless you're being paid as a professional GM, why run it?
Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.
It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.
Maybe I'll find a happy medium by taking existing adventures and changing them for my tastes.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:15:39 PM
This is pretty neat TBH. If I understand it right, you could reduce rolls, doing:
Sure but the variety of results will go down. Which is why I recommend coding it up in Inspiration Pad Pro and see what it looks like with dozens of rolls.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:44:45 PM
But you're right that I assumed one gold piece as 1/10 of a pound.
Historically Coins were all about the weight of precious metals in them.
For example in England from 8th century to around the mid 13th century the only minted coins was the silver penny the size of a US Dime. They weighed about 1.7 grams and were .925 fine. I.e. 92.5% pure silver.
In the mid 13th century, Henry III tried to introduce a gold penny (Us nickel size), which is worth 20 silver. But they had trouble getting the amount of gold right for the value. At first, there wasn't enough gold, then there was too much gold which meant folks melted them down. So the coins never circulated.
It wasn't until the reign of Edward III a hundred later, that the English crown made a gold currency that lasted the gold noble. The gold noble was worth 80d (sp), weighed around 8 grams, and was a little larger than a us half dollar.
For the purpose of gaming, I thought doing the 1/10th of a pound for the weight of a coin was stupid.
The system I use is that silver pennies (d) are the standard coins in every day use. They are the size of a dime and there are 240 of them to one pound . The other coin type I use is the gold crown which is worth 320d and there are 16 of them to one pound.
I found that particular combination of high value gold coin to a common silver coin to be popular among my players. Gold felt valuable again after I implemented this in the late 80s.
Other coins I have is the silver mark which is a silver bar with a mint mark and a value of 240d. They are the high value coin in Viking cultures.
Another is the gold penny used by Elves worth 20d and there are 240 of them to 1 pound. Also the size of a dime.
You can play around with weights and the ratio of gold value to silver to come up with your own coinage system.
You can also convert a given RPG/Setting price list by converting the price everything to silver (or copper) and the implement the price list with the new coinage system.
Hope this is helpful.
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items.
This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.
And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.
I've used master crafted blades for decades. I tired of modules doling out way too much magic in the form of sword+1 and dagger+1 and so on. Better steel and better craftsmanship solves a lot of this problem, that and I limit magic items to a single one per hoard except in very rare cases such as dragon's hoards. D&D modules sure toss out way too much magic.
Lots of treasure is the best part of AD&D. Then you have to spend fucktons of it for training, so you rarely have enough to save up for your fortress when you hit name level.
No idea what these criticisms are except theory-crafting. In play, never had any issues with this stuff.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
Taxation is theft!
But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:
"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."
"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).
As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.
On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like
"inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:54:23 PM
Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.
It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.
Maybe I'll find a happy medium by taking existing adventures and changing them for my tastes.
I was there with you (designing my own adventures), but my setting was grimdark and deadly before it became a thing. With published modules, I can easily change what I don't like and the players don't get a TPK during the 1st combat. Do what's fun for you, that's the ticket ;)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items. This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.
And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.
I like that "leveling item" idea and will probably steal it!
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
Taxation is theft!
But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:
"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."
"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).
As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.
On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:54:23 PM
Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.
It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.
Maybe I'll find a happy medium by taking existing adventures and changing them for my tastes.
I was there with you (designing my own adventures), but my setting was grimdark and deadly before it became a thing. With published modules, I can easily change what I don't like and the players don't get a TPK during the 1st combat. Do what's fun for you, that's the ticket ;)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items. This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.
And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.
I like that "leveling item" idea and will probably steal it!
Well, IF magic is real, and wizards need ingredients for their potions, spells, etc it makes sense to have some entrepenurial person to open a store that caters to that market. IF you have wizarding colleges it might even be an extension of the college, another way to earn money besides selling you the education. Of course then you can't have fake magic items to scam the rubes. At least that's the logic I use to justify some sort of magic store combined with the value of the really good magical items it explains how the wizard gets his ingredients and how some lesser/minor magical itmes find their way to the market.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items.
This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.
And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.
Stealing this for my games, thank you very much.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 23, 2023, 03:15:26 PM
I've used master crafted blades for decades. I tired of modules doling out way too much magic in the form of sword+1 and dagger+1 and so on. Better steel and better craftsmanship solves a lot of this problem, that and I limit magic items to a single one per hoard except in very rare cases such as dragon's hoards. D&D modules sure toss out way too much magic.
Also stealing this for my games, thank you for your contribution.
Quote from: estar on June 23, 2023, 02:23:06 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:15:39 PM
This is pretty neat TBH. If I understand it right, you could reduce rolls, doing:
Sure but the variety of results will go down. Which is why I recommend coding it up in Inspiration Pad Pro and see what it looks like with dozens of rolls.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:44:45 PM
But you're right that I assumed one gold piece as 1/10 of a pound.
Historically Coins were all about the weight of precious metals in them.
For example in England from 8th century to around the mid 13th century the only minted coins was the silver penny the size of a US Dime. They weighed about 1.7 grams and were .925 fine. I.e. 92.5% pure silver.
In the mid 13th century, Henry III tried to introduce a gold penny (Us nickel size), which is worth 20 silver. But they had trouble getting the amount of gold right for the value. At first, there wasn't enough gold, then there was too much gold which meant folks melted them down. So the coins never circulated.
It wasn't until the reign of Edward III a hundred later, that the English crown made a gold currency that lasted the gold noble. The gold noble was worth 80d (sp), weighed around 8 grams, and was a little larger than a us half dollar.
For the purpose of gaming, I thought doing the 1/10th of a pound for the weight of a coin was stupid.
The system I use is that silver pennies (d) are the standard coins in every day use. They are the size of a dime and there are 240 of them to one pound . The other coin type I use is the gold crown which is worth 320d and there are 16 of them to one pound.
I found that particular combination of high value gold coin to a common silver coin to be popular among my players. Gold felt valuable again after I implemented this in the late 80s.
Other coins I have is the silver mark which is a silver bar with a mint mark and a value of 240d. They are the high value coin in Viking cultures.
Another is the gold penny used by Elves worth 20d and there are 240 of them to 1 pound. Also the size of a dime.
You can play around with weights and the ratio of gold value to silver to come up with your own coinage system.
You can also convert a given RPG/Setting price list by converting the price everything to silver (or copper) and the implement the price list with the new coinage system.
Hope this is helpful.
Some data I've dug up on the coins. Weight in grams. Biggest thing to note is that the thickness is about half the thickness of a dime even for the gold coins.
Year Name Weight Pure Silver Pure gold Pence Ratio Coins/LB Diam(mm) Thick(mm)
1158 Penny 1.458 1.349 311.11 15.00 0.73
1344 Penny 1.312 1.214 345.73
1344 Gold Double Leopard 6.998 6.962 72 12.55 64.82
1344 Gold Noble 80 34.00
Gold Half Noble 40 25.50
Gold Quarter Noble 20 20.00
1346 Gold Noble 80 34.00
Gold Half Noble 40 25.50
Gold Quarter Noble 20 20.00
1351 Penny 1.200 1.110 377.99
1351 Gold Noble 7.776 7.736 80 11.48 58.33 34.00 0.81
Gold Half Noble 40 25.50
Gold Quarter Noble 20 20.00
1412 Penny 0.972 0.899 466.67
1412 Gold Half Noble 3.499 3.481 40 10.33 129.63
Gold Quarter Noble 20
1464 Penny 0.777 0.719 583.55
1464 Gold Half Angel 2.591 2.578 40 11.16 175.03 90/10 Grams Diameter Thickness
Dime 2.5 17.91 1.35
Quarter 6.25 24.26 1.75
Half Dollar 2.5 30.61 2.15
Dollar 26.73 38.10 2.40
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM
Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that?
There were no magic shops described in official modules that I know of, but back when I played AD&D, some DMs hypothesized them from:
- The GP value given for all magic items in the DMG. This was used in things like tournament modules. I recall specifically from C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness, the players have a fixed amount of gold and can buy magic items using it - though where they buy from is abstracted.
- The sheer number of magic items in published AD&D modules. There are dozens and dozens of items in most published modules.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 04:44:55 PM
Well, IF magic is real, and wizards need ingredients for their potions, spells, etc it makes sense to have some entrepenurial person to open a store that caters to that market. IF you have wizarding colleges it might even be an extension of the college, another way to earn money besides selling you the education. Of course then you can't have fake magic items to scam the rubes. At least that's the logic I use to justify some sort of magic store combined with the value of the really good magical items it explains how the wizard gets his ingredients and how some lesser/minor magical itmes find their way to the market.
So what's stopping the local Thieves' Guild from knocking the place over? Magic wards, I guess. Just seems like such a place would draw all kinds of the wrong attention
Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2023, 04:57:14 PM
There were no magic shops described in official modules that I know of, but back when I played AD&D, some DMs hypothesized them from:
- The GP value given for all magic items in the DMG. This was used in things like tournament modules. I recall specifically from C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness, the players have a fixed amount of gold and can buy magic items using it - though where they buy from is abstracted.
- The sheer number of magic items in published AD&D modules. There are dozens and dozens of items in most published modules.
Tournaments?!? I guess. The modules were stupid for magic items: I'm running an old AD&D module now that's packed with ARTIFACTS no less. A few are okay but most I had to dial-back a bit.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 06:43:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 04:44:55 PM
Well, IF magic is real, and wizards need ingredients for their potions, spells, etc it makes sense to have some entrepenurial person to open a store that caters to that market. IF you have wizarding colleges it might even be an extension of the college, another way to earn money besides selling you the education. Of course then you can't have fake magic items to scam the rubes. At least that's the logic I use to justify some sort of magic store combined with the value of the really good magical items it explains how the wizard gets his ingredients and how some lesser/minor magical itmes find their way to the market.
So what's stopping the local Thieves' Guild from knocking the place over? Magic wards, I guess. Just seems like such a place would draw all kinds of the wrong attention
To steal what? Herbs, powders, oil, owlbear feathers, dragon scales, etc? Or maybe the fake magical artifacts? You need to remember that IF the store carries any real magical artifacts it's the type that are really minor, nothing valuable ever reaches the open market.
IF any magical artifact of real value is for sale it's more likelly that it's the Guild that's selling it.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 23, 2023, 03:15:26 PM
I've used master crafted blades for decades. I tired of modules doling out way too much magic in the form of sword+1 and dagger+1 and so on. Better steel and better craftsmanship solves a lot of this problem, that and I limit magic items to a single one per hoard except in very rare cases such as dragon's hoards. D&D modules sure toss out way too much magic.
Last few years, I've done a variation on this that works well for me: All +1 weapons are crafted, not magical. However, magic was used to craft them, because the tech in the world isn't good enough to craft anything that fine without magic. (And in my current setting, the physics of the world means that there's no way to get there without magic--i.e. no high quality steel possible any other way.) Such items will faintly show as magical when someone is using the right spells to detect magic, from the residual effects of their crafting. But they are not impeded by any anti-magic or other magic-canceling effects.
Might not work for everyone, but I'm getting a eat your cake and have it too thing out of doing it this way. The characters are finding stuff that is setting off magic detection, are happy to get it because it's high quality. They can often tell that the thing is high quality by looking at it. Then when they do find the much rarer things that are actively magical, they sometimes don't catch on right away. When they do catch on, they get more excited. It implies constantly that there is a lot of low-level magical stuff happening in the world, which creates to the fantastical feeling. But there's very little overt magic items.
Picking up from the original thread: In addition to a silver dagger being a "silvered" dagger and what that implies directly, I've always assumed that a major portion of the cost of a silvered weapon was the production of it, not the silver content. Silvering something is not easy or cheap. It may even require industrial technology to get something the way it is portrayed, which means you are looking at secret elf or dwarf processes or even outright magic to do it.
In fact, it was thinking about silvered weapons that gave me the idea that I explained in the previous post. I wanted to extend that concept, because the setting had an expanded role for silvered weapons.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors.
Theory of Games,
Some do! I asked this very question last year (2022.) Sadly, no one got my Pawn Stars joke. Or worse, just ignored it. (sad trombone noise.)
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ye-old-magic-shoppe/
I didn't realize it had been discussed before, in 2020:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/magic-items-for-sale-ose-bx-other-osr/
And also in 2012:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/your-opinion-on-the-magic-shop/
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
One thing I'm starting to dislike running OSR adventures* is the insane amount of treasure and magical items that you find.
[...]
My PCs are level 5 and don't have much to do with their money, unless I start charging for small expenses
You have not mentioned which edition or clone version you are using. But in AD&D1e, there are four possible expenses of significance, and one extra consideration.
Firstly, training to level up. The DM assigns each player a rating of 1 to 4 on how well they played their character. Fighters should fight, thieves steal, and so on.
When the character gets enough XP to qualify for the next level, they stop gaining any more XP, and can go train. This takes one week for their current level, multiplied by that rating. So 1st to 2nd level takes 1-4 weeks, 2nd to 3rd level takes 2-8 weeks, and so on.
Each week costs 1,500GP. Thus, 1st to 2nd level would be 1,500-6,000GP, 2nd to 3rd level 3,000-12,000GP, and so on.
This assumes they can find a trainer - if not, they can train themselves, but it takes twice as long and thus costs twice as much. Thus, 1st to 2nd level would be 3,000-12,000GP, 2nd to 3rd level 6,000-24,000GP, and so on.
And so you can see that it's quite possible that a character could have enough XP to qualify for the next level, but not have enough GP to pay to level up. This slows character advancement as you get characters adventuring to get more GP even while maxed out on XP. It also gives them an incentive to sell off those surplus magic items you're complaining about.
Secondly, living expenses. Each character must expend no less than 100GP per level monthly. That includes while training to level up. So a 1st level character needs 1,200GP annually just to keep them in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to, a 2nd 2,400GP, a 3rd 3,600GP, and so on.
Thirdly, henchmen expenses. Henchmen must also be kept as PCs are, 100GP per level monthly. So if Frodo a 6th level thief keeps Boromir a 5th level fighter as his henchman, he must spend 600GP a month for himself and 500GP a month for Boromir, for 13,200GP in all.
But henchmen also get a treasure share. Nowhere is it specified what this must be, but obviously a greater share promised makes them more likely to sign up in the first place, and even more obviously a share of
zero will give the henchman
zero interest in signing up. Commonly we see henchmen offered 1 share where PCs get 2 shares. For example, Frodo and Sam adventure together as PCs with Boromir and Merry as their henchmen. Frodo and Sam get 2 shares each, and Boromir and Merry 1 share each, for a total of 6 shares. With some shares going to henchmen, there will be less for PCs to accumulate for whatever purpose.
Fourthly, hirelings. PCs going off into the wilderness will be simply unable to carry all the necessary food, roughage for animals, tents and so on and so forth. They will need to hire teamsters, cooks, labourers, men-at-arms and so on. These all have relatively nominal salaries, however when they see
thousands of gold floating around, they might reasonably start asking for a bit more, and their costs will become more significant. This is particularly so for men-at-arms, since the PCs will be asking them to risk their lives - and some of them
will die.
The last consideration is death. If you begin your campaign with everyone rolling their stats and hit points, and if you as DM do not give the players an easy time and fudge the dice to protect them from themselves, then you will find that several of the PCs will die as the campaign goes on. New PCs should start at 1st level, and should not automatically inherit the gear of the previous character. If you have had the same 3-6 PCs go from 1st to 5th level and none of them have died, then you've obviously fudged things to keep them alive.
Now, as DM you can make the game whatever you want. But the random treasures were put in assuming that all of the above would be happening, that PCs would be dying, that they would not have an easy time levelling up, and that they would have great expenses in levelling up, keeping henchmen and hirelings. If you choose to throw away rules X and Y, do not be surprised when rule Z doesn't work very well.
But again, it's your game. Just consider whether introducing X and Y might make Z work better for you.
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
Taxation is theft!
But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:
"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."
"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).
As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.
On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:54:23 PM
Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.
It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.
Maybe I'll find a happy medium by taking existing adventures and changing them for my tastes.
I was there with you (designing my own adventures), but my setting was grimdark and deadly before it became a thing. With published modules, I can easily change what I don't like and the players don't get a TPK during the 1st combat. Do what's fun for you, that's the ticket ;)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items. This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.
And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.
I like that "leveling item" idea and will probably steal it!
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3hhSIbtIyXYGFnokOJG3m0zgxUTuJCwn9SI7P8z7oGq4RlOktzzPIIElU6SdC_DTXJYQ&usqp=CAU)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 04:46:43 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items.
This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.
And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.
Stealing this for my games, thank you very much.
It's a great concept. I'm surprised more games don't do it.
Quote from: Brad on June 23, 2023, 03:18:33 PM
No idea what these criticisms are except theory-crafting. In play, never had any issues with this stuff.
Same here.
Magic items
+1 swords are a little boring but you can dress them up a bit (as others have noted, fancy smithing techniques or materials are great). I do think it's important to keep a firm grip on the valve of how many magic items you're feeding to players and what they're like. Passive stuff like +1 AC is boring but useful, so they just need to be dressed up a little. Items that grant some special magical power that is unique or interesting are very cool but you really shouldn't give out too many, maybe 1-2 per players is a decent target. Items that grant weird/lateral solutions to niche problems, though? You could hand out quite a lot of those and it won't generally ruin things. People won't be thinking about their Portable Boat or Universal Solvent or whatever in every situation, just the situations where it's either obviously relevant or they're really racking their brain to overcome a problem. I love those kinds of magic items both as a player and as a GM and I will readily hand those out as part of treasure.
Don't let players buy/sell magic items without actually putting in the work to locate a proper broker. It shouldn't always go smoothly, either. Robbery, fraud, all that should be possible. The alternative is you end up with players kind of looking forward more to a shopping trip than their delves (aka playing the game).
Earning and spending
Nickel and diming the characters for living expenses doesn't work very well in my experience. Players are weirdly frugal about things because they don't taste the gruel and they don't experience the aching back from sleeping in the stables. The number of times I've seen people sleep outside city limits or in the streets just to avoid playing the inn rate (or having players try to double or triple up in a room) is just crazy. Telling people they just can't do that feels like it breaks verisimilitude, so you need consequences for being cheap instead. People who sleep in the streets get diseases, get robbed, don't rest well. People who buy the cheap beer don't get the good reaction rolls when they chat up the NPC contact they need to talk to for a quest (or maybe the player buying fancy drinks attracts more interesting company). You get the idea. I currently do this ad-hoc, but I'm working on random generation tables mapped to a player's standard of living (determined based on what the player is willing to play).
In my experience, as long as players see good impact for spending their coin, they'll be willing to spend their coin. I do find coin counting boring, so I try to focus on the big, interesting choices. I don't track rooms, stabling, a drink, a fine meal, whatever else individually, but rather I essentially stratify the economy into different economic classes or standards of living. People can invest in their well-being. That stuff is easier for me personally to map to the kinds of consequences I can imagine and creatively weave into the situation.
Use XP for Gold Spent and people find or invent creative ways to spend their money, even if it's not an obviously productive pursuit in itself. You can work interesting events and consequences into that kind of stuff. Remember also to charge hazard pay with mercenaries, collect taxes, that sort of thing.
Gold standard
The simplest solution if you're looking for something a little more realistic is to adopt the silver standard. IMO it feels more "true" to the economic scale most characters will deal with until name level.
I personally ended up rewriting my economic system for my game to try to make it feel better at the table. I reduced all costs and treasure down to gold points, where a gold point essentially represents a weight of gold defined by the setting. This was inspired by the Roman Libra, predecessor of the British Pound. So if you have X gold points, it might be several coins of various denominations but ultimately it adds up to a Libra (or equivalent for the setting). At the low end (a few points or less), that's easily represented as a few silver coins exchanging hands. So far I'm happy with it, but a long ways off from being done.
As for encumbrance, I see things this way: gold coins or stamped bars essentially represent the highest density of weight/size to value you could possibly carry (short of a letter of credit or some less liquid good like a precious jewel). Unless you're carrying an big chest of gold coins around, the weight won't be a big factor relative to the bulk of carrying almost anything else. So when players find treasure in the dungeon, I'll have sacks of copper coins or chests of silver coins (as an example) take up more encumbrance than their value in gold points. So a torso-sized sack of copper coins might add up to 1 gold point total if they get them to a moneychanger. A chest of silver is very heavy and bulky but may be worth 20 gold points. But if you actually reduce the points down to gold, you're no longer encumbered by it until you end up with a very large number. I also grant trade goods or luxuries as treasure which vary a lot in value and size and can't be easily offloaded like pure coins can be.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
One thing I'm starting to dislike running OSR adventures* is the insane amount of treasure and magical items that you find. In addition, the more I read the DMG, the more I feel they were just too generous with treasure
Something I only realised fairly recently re the 1e DMG treasure tables is that you're not really supposed to use them as-is, since they tend to hand out absurdly powerful items early on. You're supposed to curate them to something more like the NPC adventurer treasure tables. That said, even the NPC adventurer tables do seem extremely generous to me. I like the treasure balance in Moldvay Cook/Marsh B/X and Mentzer Basic/Expert a lot better, with the low level and high level treasure tables (Moldvay is a bit more generous and I pefer his tables). I don't like the Rules Cyclopedia that does the 1e thing of undifferentiated tables.
Quote from: S'mon on June 24, 2023, 07:19:33 AM
Something I only realised fairly recently re the 1e DMG treasure tables is that you're not really supposed to use them as-is, since they tend to hand out absurdly powerful items early on. You're supposed to curate them to something more like the NPC adventurer treasure tables. That said, even the NPC adventurer tables do seem extremely generous to me. I like the treasure balance in Moldvay Cook/Marsh B/X and Mentzer Basic/Expert a lot better, with the low level and high level treasure tables (Moldvay is a bit more generous and I pefer his tables). I don't like the Rules Cyclopedia that does the 1e thing of undifferentiated tables.
I like to use a fair amount of cursed items that have some good qualities or mostly good items with a minor curse. So when using those kinds of tables, if I get a cursed item, it has some useful feature. When I get an item that is over-powered, instead of dropping it, I slap enough curse on it to bring it back down to a reasonable overall value.
I do this because cursed items are also kind of boring. They are more like traps. You get caught by them, you are hurt, and then you do whatever you need to do to get rid of it, which is usually have or find the right caster to handle it, plus whatever that costs. Whereas, an item with a mix of curse/useful will tempt the players to keep it. Or if not keep it, pawn it off in ways that are likely to have consequences later. Though lately I also prefer to make curses a bit more difficult to get out of.
Lots of interesting data on historical coins, nice!
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 23, 2023, 09:49:37 PM
Picking up from the original thread: In addition to a silver dagger being a "silvered" dagger and what that implies directly, I've always assumed that a major portion of the cost of a silvered weapon was the production of it, not the silver content. Silvering something is not easy or cheap. It may even require industrial technology to get something the way it is portrayed, which means you are looking at secret elf or dwarf processes or even outright magic to do it.
In fact, it was thinking about silvered weapons that gave me the idea that I explained in the previous post. I wanted to extend that concept, because the setting had an expanded role for silvered weapons.
Eh... you can come up with all kinds of justifications, but a CLUB costs 5 gold... Gold must be raining out of the sky - else, it would be easier to cut trees and make more clubs than finding/exploring a gold mine.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.
This is my impression too.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 23, 2023, 03:15:26 PM
I've used master crafted blades for decades. I tired of modules doling out way too much magic in the form of sword+1 and dagger+1 and so on. Better steel and better craftsmanship solves a lot of this problem, that and I limit magic items to a single one per hoard except in very rare cases such as dragon's hoards. D&D modules sure toss out way too much magic.
Yup, a good solution.
Quote from: Brad on June 23, 2023, 03:18:33 PM
No idea what these criticisms are except theory-crafting. In play, never had any issues with this stuff.
The OP explains that I only noticed this in actual play, by level 5 (after more than a dozen sessions) without any theory crafting.
There must be a dozen people in this thread in the same situation already, look at all the examples above.
Dropping by with a quick sidenote:
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
Seems like a lot of confusion over levelling up with treasure could have been avoided with a "GP Required" printed on the character sheet within or somewhere near the XP Required area. Each class description in the rules would also have benefitted from a column listing that base training cost.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 24, 2023, 09:13:15 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 23, 2023, 09:49:37 PM
Picking up from the original thread: In addition to a silver dagger being a "silvered" dagger and what that implies directly, I've always assumed that a major portion of the cost of a silvered weapon was the production of it, not the silver content. Silvering something is not easy or cheap. It may even require industrial technology to get something the way it is portrayed, which means you are looking at secret elf or dwarf processes or even outright magic to do it.
In fact, it was thinking about silvered weapons that gave me the idea that I explained in the previous post. I wanted to extend that concept, because the setting had an expanded role for silvered weapons.
Eh... you can come up with all kinds of justifications, but a CLUB costs 5 gold... Gold must be raining out of the sky - else, it would be easier to cut trees and make more clubs than finding/exploring a gold mine.
I'm not saying that the system is perfect for everyone or even perfect at all. Merely that the silver dagger is a bad example of the thing you are discussing. It's entirely plausible and reasonable given the assumptions of the system that a silver dagger would cost that much. I've also heard, for example, the justification for the club as being well-shaped, made out of the right wood, seasoned, with maybe some metal bands or spikes in it, too. I don't buy that one as much, because once you start doing that, we are really talking about a rather exotic mace. (I don't discount it as an argument entirely. It's an argument that doesn't really work for me, though.)
Neither of those are like the garlic thing, where you need to do a lot more rationalization to make it fit, when it is pretty clearly something done because of vampires, not because of any setting reason. To make that rationalization work, I need to really constrain my setting in some ways. Whereas with the first two, it only stops working if I start discarding other core features of the system, as Kyle outlined.
Edit: As for "club for 5 gold" not being a good fit, I agree! But that's because all the prices are inflated with the gold boom. It's easy enough to switch to a silver standard, which I do. Just read all gold prices as silver, including gem prices, and charge training prices in silver. No more crazy inflation. The relative prices of most items, though, are rather reasonable, given the assumptions of the game.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 24, 2023, 09:40:06 AM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 24, 2023, 09:13:15 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 23, 2023, 09:49:37 PM
Picking up from the original thread: In addition to a silver dagger being a "silvered" dagger and what that implies directly, I've always assumed that a major portion of the cost of a silvered weapon was the production of it, not the silver content. Silvering something is not easy or cheap. It may even require industrial technology to get something the way it is portrayed, which means you are looking at secret elf or dwarf processes or even outright magic to do it.
In fact, it was thinking about silvered weapons that gave me the idea that I explained in the previous post. I wanted to extend that concept, because the setting had an expanded role for silvered weapons.
Eh... you can come up with all kinds of justifications, but a CLUB costs 5 gold... Gold must be raining out of the sky - else, it would be easier to cut trees and make more clubs than finding/exploring a gold mine.
I'm not saying that the system is perfect for everyone or even perfect at all. Merely that the silver dagger is a bad example of the thing you are discussing. It's entirely plausible and reasonable given the assumptions of the system that a silver dagger would cost that much. I've also heard, for example, the justification for the club as being well-shaped, made out of the right wood, seasoned, with maybe some metal bands or spikes in it, too. I don't buy that one as much, because once you start doing that, we are really talking about a rather exotic mace. (I don't discount it as an argument entirely. It's an argument that doesn't really work for me, though.)
Neither of those are like the garlic thing, where you need to do a lot more rationalization to make it fit, when it is pretty clearly something done because of vampires, not because of any setting reason. To make that rationalization work, I need to really constrain my setting in some ways. Whereas with the first two, it only stops working if I start discarding other core features of the system, as Kyle outlined.
Edit: As for "club for 5 gold" not being a good fit, I agree! But that's because all the prices are inflated with the gold boom. It's easy enough to switch to a silver standard, which I do. Just read all gold prices as silver, including gem prices, and charge training prices in silver. No more crazy inflation. The relative prices of most items, though, are rather reasonable, given the assumptions of the game.
Yeah, I agree - changing everything to silver fixes a lot of things. The relative prices are good enough with a couple fo exceptions (garlic, armor), but the silver dagger costing 30 sp is still reasonable enough.
Quote from: Brad on June 23, 2023, 03:18:33 PM
Lots of treasure is the best part of AD&D. Then you have to spend fucktons of it for training, so you rarely have enough to save up for your fortress when you hit name level.
No idea what these criticisms are except theory-crafting. In play, never had any issues with this stuff.
I think a lot of the problems expressed here are due to NOT using training and associated costs to level up. If these costs were used then most players would be fairly poor after all was said & done. Add in factors such as taxation, encumbrance preventing hauling a lot of treasure out and a few other factors including upkeep (100gp per char level per month IIRC) and many players will be selling off all but the most cherished items to cover all the costs. In addition a lot of wealth in certain adventures will be nearly impossible to get out of the adventure area. Consider valuable large urns, statues, furniture, works of art, tapestries, ect. These items are worth quite a bit but unless the PCs have extraordinary resources at their disposal most of this will have to be left behind. If you handwave the party bringing all of this stuff with them then you are contributing to the problem of too much loot.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 24, 2023, 10:55:28 AM
Quote from: Brad on June 23, 2023, 03:18:33 PM
Lots of treasure is the best part of AD&D. Then you have to spend fucktons of it for training, so you rarely have enough to save up for your fortress when you hit name level.
No idea what these criticisms are except theory-crafting. In play, never had any issues with this stuff.
I think a lot of the problems expressed here are due to NOT using training and associated costs to level up. If these costs were used then most players would be fairly poor after all was said & done. Add in factors such as taxation, encumbrance preventing hauling a lot of treasure out and a few other factors including upkeep (100gp per char level per month IIRC) and many players will be selling off all but the most cherished items to cover all the costs. In addition a lot of wealth in certain adventures will be nearly impossible to get out of the adventure area. Consider valuable large urns, statues, furniture, works of art, tapestries, ect. These items are worth quite a bit but unless the PCs have extraordinary resources at their disposal most of this will have to be left behind. If you handwave the party bringing all of this stuff with them then you are contributing to the problem of too much loot.
QFT! A fine, fine post indeed ;D
Also, am I the only one who almost never uses basic "+whatever weapon"? I usually give 'em a plus for combat, but also something cool. Like "Returning" thrown weapons, "Flametongues" that set targets on fire, "Dancing" melee weapons, or something
special like that - since I'm super-stingy with magic.
Quote from: S'mon on June 24, 2023, 07:19:33 AMSomething I only realised fairly recently re the 1e DMG treasure tables is that you're not really supposed to use them as-is, since they tend to hand out absurdly powerful items early on. You're supposed to curate them to something more like the NPC adventurer treasure tables.
One of the first OD&D products was the Monster & Treasure Assortments which had a different treasure chart for each dungeon level so the high powered items were more likely in the lower dungeon levels. This also matched the treasure tables from the basic/expert sets. For some reason, this idea was completely abandoned for AD&D yet I don't really know why since it worked so well.
I'm wondering about the possibility of sacrificing the magic item for spell effects?
The general idea:
- Wizard: 2nd level spell that drains magical item energy to inflict extra damage or get a temporary higher spell slot
- Cleric: 3rd level spell that drains magical energy to heal X friends in Y radius a guaranteed amount of health back, no rolls
- Druid: 4th level spell to wild shape (since this is not an old-school class feature)
- Bard: 5th level spell which creates an aura granting X bonus to some save
and so forth.
You could also offer certain magic items as the price paid to NPCs for resurrections, minor wishes, breaking a geas, etc. Any character that finds an enchanter/artificer/alchemist could also pay the magic item to them as a means of reducing the XP cost needed for that character's next level up.
Once the energies are drained, it might still look very finely crafted, but is no longer otherwise magical. This could prove to be an interesting fight with the likes of intelligent swords that may not be partial to the idea.
Quote from: The Rearranger on June 24, 2023, 09:38:53 AM
Dropping by with a quick sidenote:
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
Seems like a lot of confusion over levelling up with treasure could have been avoided with a "GP Required" printed on the character sheet within or somewhere near the XP Required area. Each class description in the rules would also have benefitted from a column listing that base training cost.
Well, what it costs can vary, based on how well the player plays their character. AD&D is the first TTRPG to include rules for rewarding good role-play, and the reward is shorter training time, and, thus, lower cost to train. So it's a variable, not a fixed amount.
dunno if already mentioned but henchmen and hirelings will benefit from those extra items and i assume that is what gygax intended, problem is most people never use henchmen or hirelings to the same extent that gygax did or intended i suppose.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 24, 2023, 02:30:38 PM
Also, am I the only one who almost never uses basic "+whatever weapon"? I usually give 'em a plus for combat, but also something cool. Like "Returning" thrown weapons, "Flametongues" that set targets on fire, "Dancing" melee weapons, or something special like that - since I'm super-stingy with magic.
Depends on how you want to count it. I like to have a fair amount of better quality equipment that I'm not all that stingy with, at least after the first 4 or 5 levels. I don't necessarily want it to be overtly magical. Past that point, I get more stingy, and that's where the various curse and more favorable properties start to happen, usually. I'm not opposed to handing out a Dagger +0, returning, occasionally. But usually it's my +2 and better stuff that is "magical" and the +1's are left for quality.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.
Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.
It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.
And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).
Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.
Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.
It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.
And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).
Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Since when is shopping "adventurous"? ??? No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell.
THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's
definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!
What you makes you certain that the magic shop hasn't accounted for people like you?
Especially in campaigns like mine where PCs owned magic shops and successfully figured out how to foil thieves trying to rob them.
Actually what developed was that the PCs escalated the risk of discovery and exposure to the point that serious threats were deterred. However nothing will stop a determined idiot who winds being caught later.
Mind you when I run my Majestic Wilderlands not all magic shops are buttoned up tight. Like in real life there is a spread.
Quote from: estar on June 25, 2023, 11:42:21 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!
What you makes you certain that the magic shop hasn't accounted for people like you?
Especially in campaigns like mine where PCs owned magic shops and successfully figured out how to foil thieves trying to rob them.
Actually what developed was that the PCs escalated the risk of discovery and exposure to the point that serious threats were deterred. However nothing will stop a determined idiot who winds being caught later.
Mind you when I run my Majestic Wilderlands not all magic shops are buttoned up tight. Like in real life there is a spread.
lol
(https://y.yarn.co/ee3862c1-8d26-417e-a992-6e2be50b3837_text.gif)
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.
But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.
But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.
Show me on the doll where AD&D touched you.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.
But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.
Which is why 10th level is the perfect level to retire your character and roll a new one, hell it could even be in the same campaign.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 25, 2023, 11:59:28 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.
But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.
Show me on the doll where AD&D touched you.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/Q7ozWVYCR0nyW2rvPW/200w.gif?cid=6c09b9526fju0h2tykdg96vwsgww8j9bhj2o0mwj61zcvedi&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 25, 2023, 11:59:28 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.
But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.
Show me on the doll where AD&D touched you.
In the OSR.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 25, 2023, 12:11:09 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.
But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.
Which is why 10th level is the perfect level to retire your character and roll a new one, hell it could even be in the same campaign.
That's a separate issue from handling treasure, I think. But yeah, after 10th things start to get a bit ridiculous in D&D.
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.
Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.
It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.
And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).
Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Since when is shopping "adventurous"? ??? No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell. THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!
Why would a high level wizard pay rent (or security) with bags of holding and dimensional doors?
As for shopping, you're not thinking of what one crafter could make with what his enemies hold under lock and key. He casts
message to the party and offers a trade. Then he gives his calling card.
I am not a big fan of magic shops, but saying +1 swords are just higher quality swords makes finding them in stores more sensible.
Potions... meh, I let my players buy them.
But actual magic, like a ring of X-ray vision? I don't like it. Maybe I'll be okay with that in a setting like Ravnica or Eberron. But in most settings I would say that even finding a market for this would be hard - for both buyers AND sellers!
Quote from: The Rearranger on June 25, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.
Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.
It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.
And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).
Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Since when is shopping "adventurous"? ??? No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell. THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!
Why would a high level wizard pay rent (or security) with bags of holding and dimensional doors?
As for shopping, you're not thinking of what one crafter could make with what his enemies hold under lock and key. He casts message to the party and offers a trade. Then he gives his calling card.
Youu aren't thinking big. The REAL money would be in
Magic Safe Deposit Boxes! For spellbooks, treasure, magic items, what have ya. I'd clean-up! Different sizes and price-plans of course based on the clients needs and budget. Like candy from babies! They'd be coming out the dungeon
and straight to me! After a few months or so I would upgrade to something like a Savings & Loan institution, offering better-established clientele extended lines of credit backed by their collateral investments.
I'd be the fkn J.P. Morgan of Greyhawk!! 8)
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 06:17:51 PM
Quote from: The Rearranger on June 25, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.
Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.
It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.
And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).
Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Since when is shopping "adventurous"? ??? No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell. THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!
Why would a high level wizard pay rent (or security) with bags of holding and dimensional doors?
As for shopping, you're not thinking of what one crafter could make with what his enemies hold under lock and key. He casts message to the party and offers a trade. Then he gives his calling card.
Youu aren't thinking big. The REAL money would be in Magic Safe Deposit Boxes! For spellbooks, treasure, magic items, what have ya. I'd clean-up! Different sizes and price-plans of course based on the clients needs and budget. Like candy from babies! They'd be coming out the dungeon and straight to me! After a few months or so I would upgrade to something like a Savings & Loan institution, offering better-established clientele extended lines of credit backed by their collateral investments.
I'd be the fkn J.P. Morgan of Greyhawk!! 8)
Magic Safe Deposit Boxes? Sounds like the vaults of a mage's guild or college. You might be in for some competition, or an invoice for dues, if not censorship or outright bounties. Entrepreneurial pursuits aren't without their risks though.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 24, 2023, 09:13:15 AM
The OP explains that I only noticed this in actual play, by level 5 (after more than a dozen sessions) without any theory crafting.
There must be a dozen people in this thread in the same situation already, look at all the examples above.
If you're not going to use all the rules, you may encounter problems, that's true. Just like when people tell me how long Monopoly takes to play then go, "HUH!?!?," when you ask if they use the rules for mortgaging properties and auctioning them off. The way most people play AD&D handwaves A LOT of assumed paradigms which result in issues that don't exist if you're playing by-the-book.
Also, all the bullshit about "metagaming hoops" is just code for "I am taking this too seriously". It's a fucking game. There are elements of the game that exist to make it fun to play that might not be entirely realistic. So the fuck what?
The OSR: Rulings not Rules! All those nu-school gamers and all their rules for everything. What a buncha tards! LULZ ;D
Also the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and adding a buncha hoops and middlemen to make excess treasure work? ::)
Me: Probably cuz I'm not a fucking retard trying to chase my own tail by adding shit I don't need into the game only to rely on a bunch of bullshit rules and superfluous accounting nonsense to fix what would never have been broken if I hadn't added needless shit to begin with. 8)
Some games insist on trying to have rules for everything and disallowing anything not in the rules. Others have few rules and rely on a arbiter to adjudicate most actions referring to the rules only as necessary. In either case, removing a rule from play without replacing it with a suitable alternative can completely break the core player experience that the game is built around. Moreover, not everything that contributes to a satisfying overall experience can be satisfying in and of itself.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 08:58:43 PM
The OSR: Rulings not Rules! All those nu-school gamers and all their rules for everything. What a buncha tards! LULZ ;D
Also the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and adding a buncha hoops and middlemen to make excess treasure work? ::)
Me: Probably cuz I'm not a fucking retard trying to chase my own tail by adding shit I don't need into the game only to rely on a bunch of bullshit rules and superfluous accounting nonsense to fix what would never have been broken if I hadn't added needless shit to begin with. 8)
Im betting you've never heard of the Federal Reserve, have you. You know, minting a trillion dollar coin to fix the economy? Nahh, stuff like that's just pure fantasy.
There has been so much bitching about the "gold standard" over the years, but it's almost literally the system the British empire used
1 Gold Sovereign = 20 silver shillings, and a shilling was worth 12 pence (which also originally silver, but latter mostly copper). It's still a gold standard, even if shillings and pence were the most common thing used
Quote from: Brad on June 25, 2023, 09:20:11 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 08:58:43 PM
The OSR: Rulings not Rules! All those nu-school gamers and all their rules for everything. What a buncha tards! LULZ ;D
Also the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and adding a buncha hoops and middlemen to make excess treasure work? ::)
Me: Probably cuz I'm not a fucking retard trying to chase my own tail by adding shit I don't need into the game only to rely on a bunch of bullshit rules and superfluous accounting nonsense to fix what would never have been broken if I hadn't added needless shit to begin with. 8)
Im betting you've never heard of the Federal Reserve, have you. You know, minting a trillion dollar coin to fix the economy? Nahh, stuff like that's just pure fantasy.
>We should devote extra effort breaking our elfgame's economy then additional effort taking extra measures we wouldn't have otherwise needed to desperately try to fix it, cuz Federal Reserve broke the money supply IRL
Jeeses Christ! That's the take that keeps on taking, lol ;D
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 08:58:43 PM
The OSR: Rulings not Rules! All those nu-school gamers and all their rules for everything. What a buncha tards! LULZ ;D
Also the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and adding a buncha hoops and middlemen to make excess treasure work? ::)
Me: Probably cuz I'm not a fucking retard trying to chase my own tail by adding shit I don't need into the game only to rely on a bunch of bullshit rules and superfluous accounting nonsense to fix what would never have been broken if I hadn't added needless shit to begin with. 8)
If you don't like old school games then don't play them. The rules work together as a whole. If you start changing shit then you need to change other stuff that your change impacts. For example if you reduced treasure by 75% then the xp table numbers need to modified to compensate but oh noes that means math and we hates it precious yes we hates it.
Quote from: JeremyR on June 26, 2023, 04:07:31 AM
There has been so much bitching about the "gold standard" over the years, but it's almost literally the system the British empire used
1 Gold Sovereign = 20 silver shillings, and a shilling was worth 12 pence (which also originally silver, but latter mostly copper). It's still a gold standard, even if shillings and pence were the most common thing used
The standard or common coins in use are not the same thing as the "standard" upon which the currency is derived. Most people here are talking the former, not the latter. Moreover, many of us are emulating an earlier period, where silver was the "standard" in both senses of the word. That is part of the contention, that having lots of gold, in reality or even as a "standard", seems out of place emulating an earlier period.
Fortunately, it's an easy, almost cosmetic change--one that doesn't change how the system works otherwise.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 07:44:22 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 08:58:43 PM
The OSR: Rulings not Rules! All those nu-school gamers and all their rules for everything. What a buncha tards! LULZ ;D
Also the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and adding a buncha hoops and middlemen to make excess treasure work? ::)
Me: Probably cuz I'm not a fucking retard trying to chase my own tail by adding shit I don't need into the game only to rely on a bunch of bullshit rules and superfluous accounting nonsense to fix what would never have been broken if I hadn't added needless shit to begin with. 8)
If you don't like old school games then don't play them. The rules work together as a whole. If you start changing shit then you need to change other stuff that your change impacts. For example if you reduced treasure by 75% then the xp table numbers need to modified to compensate but oh noes that means math and we hates it precious yes we hates it.
It's not about what I like or don't, but about what makes sense or doesn't. And giving out excess treasure only for you to then need punitive and superfluous money sinks that take extra bookkeeping in order to get rid of that excess treasure makes no sense. When you can avoid all of that by not giving out excessive amounts of treasure to begin with. Just a normal amount will do.
And XP for gold makes no sense either. Gold (or whatever) amount found has no direct correlation with personal growth (only financial), and stuff like paying obscene amounts for training is just an ad hoc rationalization to justify XP for exact gold amount. It's also quite easy to replace XP for gold with XP awards for other stuff, like completing objectives (mission or personal), finishing an adventure, good planning, or any number of other things, including uncovering lost treasure, if that was an objective. But that XP award doesn't have to match currency amount. It could be whatever the DM feels is appropriate based on these "Rulingz not Rulez!" powers I keep hearing they supposedly have.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 26, 2023, 08:19:17 AM
Quote from: JeremyR on June 26, 2023, 04:07:31 AM
There has been so much bitching about the "gold standard" over the years, but it's almost literally the system the British empire used
1 Gold Sovereign = 20 silver shillings, and a shilling was worth 12 pence (which also originally silver, but latter mostly copper). It's still a gold standard, even if shillings and pence were the most common thing used
The standard or common coins in use are not the same thing as the "standard" upon which the currency is derived. Most people here are talking the former, not the latter. Moreover, many of us are emulating an earlier period, where silver was the "standard" in both senses of the word. That is part of the contention, that having lots of gold, in reality or even as a "standard", seems out of place emulating an earlier period.
Fortunately, it's an easy, almost cosmetic change--one that doesn't change how the system works otherwise.
Discussing earlier or later historical periods is not really what D&D (and similar OSR games) is actually trying to emulate. Large piles of gold treasure have nothing to do with any historical period it is based on pure fantasy as is the magic, and fantastical creatures that are also part of the game. It is not meant to represent a historical European world with wizards & dragons thrown in. In a fantasy world where there are large piles of gold treasure being recovered by brave adventurers the economies of areas where these adventurers spend money will certainly be affected. In the real world there are numerous examples of local economies charging outrageous prices for everything when there is an influx of wealth, such as the example of gold rush mining towns given in the AD&D DMG. Even in modern times there are examples of prices being artificially inflated. I remember an interview Mel Gibson did when Braveheart came out. He talked about the jacked up prices for everything that the production team had to pay because the crew from Rob Roy had just come through the same area and the locals wanted to grab more of that Hollywood cash.
"What! Fifteen gold for a backpack! I just paid two for one of those not quite a month ago." "Yes sir but times are tough now with the Baron's new taxes, and supply costs have gone up".....yadda yadda yadda. Large piles of cash hitting the economy will drive everything up.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 07:14:30 AM
>We should devote extra effort breaking our elfgame's economy then additional effort taking extra measures we wouldn't have otherwise needed to desperately try to fix it, cuz Federal Reserve broke the money supply IRL
Jeeses Christ! That's the take that keeps on taking, lol ;D
Elfgame economy...you use that phrase like it has any analogy to a real-world economy. Like, seriously, if you want to do some sort of 1-to-1 simulationist crap DON"T PLAY D&D. It's pretty fucking simple. But as I already said, it's a game. This is like bitching that it makes no sense to be able to freely buy and sell house in Monopoly because it doesn't line up to real life.
Further, my real-world example just proves you have no idea WTF you're even talking about RE: economics. The implied D&D economy makes way more sense than whatever the fuck the Fed is doing right now.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 08:41:57 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 07:44:22 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 08:58:43 PM
The OSR: Rulings not Rules! All those nu-school gamers and all their rules for everything. What a buncha tards! LULZ ;D
Also the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and adding a buncha hoops and middlemen to make excess treasure work? ::)
Me: Probably cuz I'm not a fucking retard trying to chase my own tail by adding shit I don't need into the game only to rely on a bunch of bullshit rules and superfluous accounting nonsense to fix what would never have been broken if I hadn't added needless shit to begin with. 8)
If you don't like old school games then don't play them. The rules work together as a whole. If you start changing shit then you need to change other stuff that your change impacts. For example if you reduced treasure by 75% then the xp table numbers need to modified to compensate but oh noes that means math and we hates it precious yes we hates it.
It's not about what I like or don't, but about what makes sense or doesn't. And giving out excess treasure only for you to then need punitive and superfluous money sinks that take extra bookkeeping in order to get rid of that excess treasure makes no sense. When you can avoid all of that by not giving out excessive amounts of treasure to begin with. Just a normal amount will do.
And XP for gold makes no sense either. Gold (or whatever) amount found has no direct correlation with personal growth (only financial), and stuff like paying obscene amounts for training is just an ad hoc rationalization to justify XP for exact gold amount. It's also quite easy to replace XP for gold with XP awards for other stuff, like completing objectives (mission or personal), finishing an adventure, good planning, or any number of other things, including uncovering lost treasure, if that was an objective. But that XP award doesn't have to match currency amount. It could be whatever the DM feels is appropriate based on these "Rulingz not Rulez!" powers I keep hearing they supposedly have.
You can give out XP for whatever you want but if you are not using treasure for XP then it isn't really D&D anymore. There are great games that don't use treasure for XP. I love GURPS and have played quite a few great campaigns with it, some of them fantasy but it wasn't D&D. XP for gold was just a way to keep score in the game. Old school campaigns were not about leading players by the nose in adventure paths. Multiple groups of players would play in the same campaign and those that won the most treasure could claim the high score. The setting and treasures to be won were the same for all players which is why good timekeeping was essential. If group A planned and executed a raid on an owlbear lair on date X and successfully looted it, and group B had planned a raid on that same lair but was sidetracked and did something else, and didn't get to the lair until date Y then they would find it already looted. Open ended exploration in an ever changing environment with player set goals was the essence of the game. Multiple groups participating in the campaign helped the players to realize that the game world didn't revolve around them in particular and that it wasn't static and things happened with or without them. Campaign play wasn't like an MMORPG where the player can just delay doing a quest until it is convenient to do it and it will still be there waiting for them until they accept it. My feeling is that you just don't LIKE D&D and that is fine. There are plenty of other games out there.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
You can give out XP for whatever you want but if you are not using treasure for XP then it isn't really D&D anymore.
It's almost like he never actually read the books...this is explained in great detail in the DMG as to why it is done this way.
Quote from: Brad on June 26, 2023, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 07:14:30 AM
>We should devote extra effort breaking our elfgame's economy then additional effort taking extra measures we wouldn't have otherwise needed to desperately try to fix it, cuz Federal Reserve broke the money supply IRL
Jeeses Christ! That's the take that keeps on taking, lol ;D
Elfgame economy...you use that phrase like it has any analogy to a real-world economy. Like, seriously, if you want to do some sort of 1-to-1 simulationist crap DON"T PLAY D&D. It's pretty fucking simple. But as I already said, it's a game. This is like bitching that it makes no sense to be able to freely buy and sell house in Monopoly because it doesn't line up to real life.
Further, my real-world example just proves you have no idea WTF you're even talking about RE: economics. The implied D&D economy makes way more sense than whatever the fuck the Fed is doing right now.
You keep bringing up "simulation" like I ever advocated mimicking real-world economy at any point. It's not either/or. I don't have to simulate real world economy 1:1 OR jump through hoops to justify excess in-game treasure. And again, "the Fed doesn't make sense (be design) IRL" does not mean that therefore I have to use additional hoops that don't make sense in the game as well.
Quote from: Brad on June 26, 2023, 09:39:37 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
You can give out XP for whatever you want but if you are not using treasure for XP then it isn't really D&D anymore.
It's almost like he never actually read the books...this is explained in great detail in the DMG as to why it is done this way.
XP for Gold hasn't been a default thing in D&D since 2e (or even used after that), and there is way more to D&D's implied setting and the fantasy genre than farming treasure exclusively. And I don't give a shit what the RAW say. If a rule doesn't make sense or adds additional hurdles that can be easily avoided I ignore it.
But, "OMG! WHAT ABOUT THE RULEZ?" or "But, it's a GAEM!" doesn't mean therefore people are wrong to observe that this aspect of the game makes no sense (what "people who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D" are normally doing), as implied by the post I originally replied to.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.
Sometimes people can read the rules correctly and arrive at the conclusion that these are added hoops that make no sense and can easily be avoided.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:01:39 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 26, 2023, 08:19:17 AM
Quote from: JeremyR on June 26, 2023, 04:07:31 AM
There has been so much bitching about the "gold standard" over the years, but it's almost literally the system the British empire used
1 Gold Sovereign = 20 silver shillings, and a shilling was worth 12 pence (which also originally silver, but latter mostly copper). It's still a gold standard, even if shillings and pence were the most common thing used
The standard or common coins in use are not the same thing as the "standard" upon which the currency is derived. Most people here are talking the former, not the latter. Moreover, many of us are emulating an earlier period, where silver was the "standard" in both senses of the word. That is part of the contention, that having lots of gold, in reality or even as a "standard", seems out of place emulating an earlier period.
Fortunately, it's an easy, almost cosmetic change--one that doesn't change how the system works otherwise.
Discussing earlier or later historical periods is not really what D&D (and similar OSR games) is actually trying to emulate. Large piles of gold treasure have nothing to do with any historical period it is based on pure fantasy as is the magic, and fantastical creatures that are also part of the game. It is not meant to represent a historical European world with wizards & dragons thrown in. In a fantasy world where there are large piles of gold treasure being recovered by brave adventurers the economies of areas where these adventurers spend money will certainly be affected. In the real world there are numerous examples of local economies charging outrageous prices for everything when there is an influx of wealth, such as the example of gold rush mining towns given in the AD&D DMG. Even in modern times there are examples of prices being artificially inflated. I remember an interview Mel Gibson did when Braveheart came out. He talked about the jacked up prices for everything that the production team had to pay because the crew from Rob Roy had just come through the same area and the locals wanted to grab more of that Hollywood cash.
"What! Fifteen gold for a backpack! I just paid two for one of those not quite a month ago." "Yes sir but times are tough now with the Baron's new taxes, and supply costs have gone up".....yadda yadda yadda. Large piles of cash hitting the economy will drive everything up.
I'm well aware of that. I'm not sure what I said would prompt that response. Unless you have me mixed up with some of the other posters. To be clear, I'm not complaining about the way how early D&D does things. I have enjoyed that approach a lot.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
You can give out XP for whatever you want but if you are not using treasure for XP then it isn't really D&D anymore.
That seems much too onetruewayist to me. 2e AD&D is still D&D IMO even without xp for gp as a default rule. Anyway you can always divide awards by 10 and give 10 xp per gp.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
You can give out XP for whatever you want but if you are not using treasure for XP then it isn't really D&D anymore.
D&D doesn't break if the referee ditches XP for Treasure.
Especially if the point of the campaign is to trash the setting rather than kicking the door, killing monsters, and gathering their loot.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
Old school campaigns were not about leading players by the nose in adventure paths. Multiple groups of players would play in the same campaign and those that won the most treasure could claim the high score.
As someone who played a lot back in the day as well as in the present. Campaigns varied a lot in what they focused on. Even in my small rural town in northwest PA. Even when we all used the AD&D rules.
My focus from the get go was on players trashing the setting. Mainly because I played AH/SPI wargames prior to my introduction to D&D in 1978. I viewed D&D as a far more interesting and expansive way of doing multi-player situations where everybody was a contender for positions of power and wealth. And as something practical I can do with the homebrew settings I liked working as a result of my passion for the Return of the King appendices. And easier as setting up a D&D campaign was far more straightforward than making a AH/SPI wargame. This was the viewpoint of my Junior High self. And I lucked out in that my friends liked being contenders for positions of power and most DMs at the time hated their settings being fucked with.
Because I was using D&D, there was still dungeon crawls, and wilderness exploration because that how PCs gain the resources and training (by leveling) to get their start. But I quickly found that Gold for XP got in the away because it made the acquisition of gold the focus rather than a means to an end. So ditched it and magic item XP, in favor of a roleplaying award based on how well they roleplayed i.e. how well their immediate plans worked out. It was a form of what folks called a milestone award. Except it wasn't an award for completing a checkpoint on an adventure path, but rather an award for the PCs succeeding on whatever plan they happened to come up with. Again whatever plan THEY came up with, not me.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
Open ended exploration in an ever changing environment with player set goals was the essence of the game.
Wait earlier you said the point was to see who had the most treasure at the end of the day. While I agree your statement is an accurate reflection of what some of us did back in the day. And that it is good reason to have good timekeeping. It is a poor defense of Gold for XP.
With only the traditional XP system, there is no reason to explore for the sake of exploration. The only time one needs to explore if it will pay off in terms of gaining gold, or killing monster. Otherwise why bother? Which is another reason I changed to a roleplaying award (milestone).
The reason we heard so much about exploration is because the lack of any type of scenario restrictions (like a wargame has) was intoxicating. So sure at first everybody poked around to see what they could find. But the logic of XP gain RAW meant that was a passing phase in favor of more loot, more monsters slain.
I was lucky in that I spotted this as an issue for my campaign so by 1984 I switched over to a roleplaying award although I still kept Monster XP.
If you don't believe me I still have a typewritten copy of the rule I used.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/04/from-attic-experience-points-rules.html
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
Multiple groups participating in the campaign helped the players to realize that the game world didn't revolve around them in particular and that it wasn't static and things happened with or without them.
As it turned out multiple groups in a single campaign is a rare occurrence. The best I was able to do was two at once (hometown and college, then later a game store campaign, and a campaign at my house, then still later a VTT campaign and a face to face campaign).
One way I got around this is that I stuck with the same setting, the Majestic Wilderlands, whenever ran a fantasy campaign. What the players did in the previous campaign became part of the background for the next campaign I ran. Today, some regions of my setting are what they are as the result of what the PCs did in the past. Not just one group but multiple groups of different players doing their thing.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
My feeling is that you just don't LIKE D&D and that is fine. There are plenty of other games out there.
My feeling is that too many folks put too much stock in the system when they should be focused on the setting. Moreso not everything in a RPG rulebook is part of the system. Some are aides to help make running a campaign easier.
The XP charts in various editions of D&D are part of the system. It describes what it takes for a character to progress in levels. What you award XP for is an aide. A suggestion based on the author (Gygax, etc.) experience. But it is just that a suggestion. If the suggestion doesn't suit the type of setting you want to run or the type of campaign (like trashing the setting) then change it. The system won't break. Your players may be unhappy if your award system is overly generous, or overly stingy.
Or forces them to do things they are not interested in. After reading the thread seems to be what the objections boil down too.
Quote from: S'mon on June 26, 2023, 10:48:38 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 09:36:26 AM
You can give out XP for whatever you want but if you are not using treasure for XP then it isn't really D&D anymore.
That seems much too onetruewayist to me. 2e AD&D is still D&D IMO even without xp for gp as a default rule. Anyway you can always divide awards by 10 and give 10 xp per gp.
Changing the ratio is different from changing the whole paradigm. As far as one true wayism is concerned, anyone can change anything they wish to suit their own tastes but that means that they have decided to play a different game. Nothing wrong with different games but when it comes to D&D as designed there comes a point where you are no longer playing it. A company may own the rights to D&D intellectual property but that doesn't mean the games produced with it will be D&D in spirit. Not liking what D&D is all about isn't some kind of crime. Play the games that suit your interests. There are certain elements that make D&D what it is. Without defining elements there is no longer a unique identity.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 08:41:57 AM
And XP for gold makes no sense either. Gold (or whatever) amount found has no direct correlation with personal growth (only financial), and stuff like paying obscene amounts for training is just an ad hoc rationalization to justify XP for exact gold amount.
You mean like the fastest way to advance in Runequest 2 is to pay for training? Which cost a lot to undertake. Or the fact in the latest version of Runequest, you still can pay for training or spend time in-game researching.
Or GURPS which has a subsystem to handle training and how long it takes to improve various skills. And that subsystem in the same section where they talk about job income and cost of living.
Granted how Runequest, GURPS, and some other handles this is more straightforward, D&D's method is just more abstract. The fact is that training takes time, time cost money (or resources) in order to live.
Now I ditched Gold for XP in my D&D campaigns however if it came up that there was an opportunity for a PC to train, I would figure the cost and the benefits in the form of additional XP.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
Not liking what D&D is all about isn't some kind of crime. Play the games that suit your interests.
Tell it to Pundit:
Quote from: TheRPGPundit link=https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/how-less-choices-make-rpg-play-better/msg1256469/#msg1256469
People who like 4e and hate the OSR are objectively bad humans.
;D
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
There are certain elements that make D&D what it is. Without defining elements there is no longer a unique identity.
What elements are those? Maybe just the top 10? I wouldn't count training costs, taxes and upkeep in my top 10, but IMMV.
Come to think of it, I don't remember training costs even existing in the original D&D.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
Nothing wrong with different games but when it comes to D&D as designed there comes a point where you are no longer playing it.
Then what the objective test? Actual Play? I can say that all the players in my campaigns felt like they playing AD&D and having fun doing it.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
There are certain elements that make D&D what it is. Without defining elements there is no longer a unique identity.
As the OSR has demonstrated consistently for 15 years through numerous examples of actual play what is "D&D" even when limited to its classic editions is extraordinary far broader than what people give credit for.
That fact you really like the setting that is implied by Classic D&D RAW. Doesn't make games, like mine, that choose to run different settings with different assumptions any less D&D.
Is there any limit? Of course. There are many authors that try to leverage OSR as a form of branding or marketing for their non-D&D efforts. Yet the core of the OSR centered on the classic edition keeps chugging along with a mix of authors and hobbyists that changes slowly across the decades.
Thematically, Lamentations of the Flame Princess is very different from the world painted by Gary Gygax in AD&D yet Raggi's works are still found useful for D&D campaigns by many hobbyists. As James Raggi still uses D&D mechanics extensively in his works.
Quote from: estar on June 26, 2023, 11:15:40 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
Nothing wrong with different games but when it comes to D&D as designed there comes a point where you are no longer playing it.
Then what the objective test? Actual Play? I can say that all the players in my campaigns felt like they playing AD&D and having fun doing it.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
There are certain elements that make D&D what it is. Without defining elements there is no longer a unique identity.
As the OSR has demonstrated consistently for 15 years through numerous examples of actual play what is "D&D" even when limited to its classic editions is extraordinary far broader than what people give credit for.
That fact you really like the setting that is implied by Classic D&D RAW. Doesn't make games, like mine, that choose to run different settings with different assumptions any less D&D.
Is there any limit? Of course. There are many authors that try to leverage OSR as a form of branding or marketing for their non-D&D efforts. Yet the core of the OSR centered on the classic edition keeps chugging along with a mix of authors and hobbyists that changes slowly across the decades.
Thematically, Lamentations of the Flame Princess is very different from the world painted by Gary Gygax in AD&D yet Raggi's works are still found useful for D&D campaigns by many hobbyists. As James Raggi still uses D&D mechanics extensively in his works.
Well as far as awarding XP for roleplay and player directed objectives these can be very different things. GURPS awards XP for how well you roleplay the character that was created lovingly point by point by the player. Success or failure depends on faithfully roleplaying the character. I like the GURPS system a great deal but that doesn't make it D&D no matter how much I enjoy it. I like both games for different reasons. Sometimes awarding XP for player directed goals being achieved and good roleplay come into conflict. Suppose the group's goal was accomplished and was a smashing success. Innocent villagers had to be slaughtered in the process but that was the price of victory. Should the LG paladin be awarded full points or should alignment be ditched too because its too rigid? What if the player mission goal for the game month was to spend it drinking, gambling & whoring? How much XP would they get?
Anyone should change anything they wish to give the participants the gaming experience desired. Those changes may lead the game in different directions from D&D. For an excellent example pertinent to this discussion, check out the childrens story " Mexicali Soup". It has a very interesting lesson to teach.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
For an excellent example pertinent to this discussion, check out the childrens story " Mexicali Soup". It has a very interesting lesson to teach.
Nice except the lesson I get out of it is how to use one's kitchen and its utensils to tailor the soup to each individual's taste. Rather than think I can only make a single type of soup called Mexcali Soup. And that is the point of the following reply. To get you think of classic D&D as being the kitchen and its utensil rather than it being the soup itself. The same applies to D&D 5e, GURPS, etc. They are all kitchens and utensils capable of creating the same variety of delicious meals.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
the character that was created lovingly point by point by the player.
This level of detail can be handled equally well by notes written on a sheet of paper written by somebody who knows the kind of character they want to play in the referee's setting or has a referee willing to coach them through the process.
The point of GURPS fleshing all this out is not to create a set of boardgame-like moves and rolls but to help the players act as their character and help describe what their character is doing. There are other ways to accomplish this than through mechanics. Neither approach is better overall but one may be better for a particular group than the other.
Thus the fact D&D is silent in terms of mechanics compared doesn't preclude the possibility of characters with detailed personalities and rich backgrounds from being part of a campaign.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
I like the GURPS system a great deal but that doesn't make it D&D no matter how much I enjoy it. I like both games for different reasons.
Most folks who want to play my campaign come for the setting and the fact I am known for letting players trash it. I used to be picky about the systems I used. But now that I am more experienced I made multiple system work equally well. So I will focus on the one that is most comfortable and fun for the group to play. Whether that is GURPS, AGE, classic D&D, 5e, and so on.
The trick is what GURPS describes on page 492
QuoteThe GM's task during the game is simple. All he has to do is listen to the players describe what they're doing, then use the rules of the game to tell them what happens, so they can describe what they want to do next . . . and so on. Well, perhaps it's not quite that simple!
Describe first and roll second I found over time can be applied to any number of systems. There are limits but they are so broad it still leaves me with a wide variety of setting that I can use to run my settings like the Majestic Wilderlands.
When it comes to D&D and what players get out of it, I found it not gold for XP or any number of other peripheral elements. No, it is the fact you have classes, levels, hit points, armor classes, initiative along with some other elements. It is fine for a D&D campaign to use Gold for XP but I found it is not necessary. Instead I came up with a more generalized system of milestone XP that will reward both the player who want as much gold as they get, the players who keen on trashing my setting, the players who just want to explore some corner of my world, and along with other types of goals. It also handles players who decide to change their priorities mid-campaign when they find something more interesting to interact with.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
Sometimes awarding XP for player directed goals being achieved and good roleplay come into conflict.
There is no conflict between goals and roleplaying in my campaigns. I require first person roleplaying and how the players acts as their character is how they act.
But there are consequences as you will see.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
Suppose the group's goal was accomplished and was a smashing success. Innocent villagers had to be slaughtered in the process but that was the price of victory.
If innocent villagers are killed then the NPCs my setting will act accordingly with the information they have. That the basic gist of my approach, good or bad, how life unfolds in my setting will reward or punish the players. Sometime both.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
Should the LG paladin be awarded full points or should alignment be ditched too because its too rigid?
The paladin would get full XP, experience is experience. However that paladin would find the following happening.
QuoteBreaking Your Oath
A paladin is their deity's hand within the Majestic Fantasy Realms. This bond is manifests as a paladin's oath. However, paladins are mortal and as mortals some will decide to let their own interests come before their deity's call. As result the Paladin's Oath is broken and the connection to their deity is severed.
Actions that result in breaking your paladin oath include but not limited to are: ignoring or doing the opposite of the deity's tenets, and ignoring a call to quest from your deity to pursue another goal.
The consequences of this are severe. Several class features will cease to be usable by the Paladin. They are listed below.
The above is from my 5e version of a Paladin of Delaquain Goddess of Honor and Justice.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14tb9GDzhYMrJj1YEZsowdoYwLLYjcN5w/view?usp=sharing
I have similar version for my GURPS notes and Majestic Fantasy RPG (classic D&D).
And the tenets are clearly spelled out for each type of holy warrior like a paladin.
QuoteFive-fold Code
Show no fear to your enemies even when all is lost.
Let truth guide your life even unto death.
Let the light of goodness and bravery guide you into Delaquain's love.
Protect the helpless as you would protect Delaquain herself.
For what man is a man who does not make the world better?
So in the example you gave the paladin is clearly violating the fourth tenet of the Five-fold Code to protect the helpless. I am assuming that in your example that options existed that could have led to victory without the villagers being slain. That the villagers were killed because it was the easy way to accomplish the goal and the paladin was complicit in that solution.
And if you read the PDF, I outline the process by which a repentant paladin can renew their oath. There are also two other options. One is one of the few times I will allow multi-class in 5e is that the paladin character start taking fighter levels. In my Majestic Fantasy RPG, paladins will only progress as a fighter. The other option is that the paladin embraces chaos and becomes a chaos knight.
The goal of my XP system isn't force any particular type of behavior in a D&D (or other system) game. The only goal is to encourage players to interact with the setting in a manner they find fun or interesting. Unlike many referees, I don't get bent when the players go left and right. I learn to roll with it and figure out interesting adventures from the party going left instead of right. Even to the point of saying "OK folks I need to end early and work on this for next week" even tho a bunch of prep just made it useless.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
or should alignment be ditched too because is too rigid?
I don't use alignment. Players acts as their chracter however they want and the NPCs of my setting respond accordingly with the information they have.
Certain classes require the players to be part of an organization or be bound to some type of code or ethos. If they violate that code or ethos then they will lose certain benefits like being able to cast divine spells. And this is describe as much as possible in-game. Some classes like the Mages of the Order of Thoth don't have immediate consequences.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
What if the player mission goal for the game month was to spend it drinking, gambling & whoring? How much XP would they get?
That fine and if they doing a great job of drinking, gambling & whoring then they would get as much XP as saving the village. The part you are missing that a life of drinking, gambling, & whoring isn't without complications that make for adventures. Maybe not a dungeon crawl. But the player in question will soon find out they have complications to deal with that could be bad or good for them.
For example they decide that the Blue Dolphin Inn is their favorite place but quickly learn that a local gang of longshoremen also frequent the place and make the other patrons life (and the proprietor's) life miserable. The PC like how I roleplayed everybody else and decides to stick up for the inn. Right there a challenge leading to adventure that leads to XP.
The way I weigh milestones is in terms of how consequential the achieved goal is for the players (and the group when it matters). The award for saving the world is easy to decide on. However for a player helping set things right for a local drunk and his family can be just as consequential.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
Anyone should change anything they wish to give the participants the gaming experience desired. Those changes may lead the game in different directions from D&D.
So what? The only direction that being changed is what Gygax envisioned his mechanics being used for. I don't feel that relevant if I can see them being used in another way. Also not everything found in the core rulebooks is part of the system. Much of it are aides to help making a campaign easier. If those aides like encounter tables and what you award XP for doesn't work for you. Then jettison them. All you doing is same thing that happened in the Mexcali story. Using D&D's kitchen and utensils to prepare a different type of delicious meal.
Quote from: estar on June 26, 2023, 11:06:53 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 08:41:57 AM
And XP for gold makes no sense either. Gold (or whatever) amount found has no direct correlation with personal growth (only financial), and stuff like paying obscene amounts for training is just an ad hoc rationalization to justify XP for exact gold amount.
You mean like the fastest way to advance in Runequest 2 is to pay for training? Which cost a lot to undertake. Or the fact in the latest version of Runequest, you still can pay for training or spend time in-game researching.
Or GURPS which has a subsystem to handle training and how long it takes to improve various skills. And that subsystem in the same section where they talk about job income and cost of living.
Granted how Runequest, GURPS, and some other handles this is more straightforward, D&D's method is just more abstract. The fact is that training takes time, time cost money (or resources) in order to live.
Now I ditched Gold for XP in my D&D campaigns however if it came up that there was an opportunity for a PC to train, I would figure the cost and the benefits in the form of additional XP.
I'm not terribly familiar with Runequest or GURPS and was referring more to the way old D&D handles XP for Gold in particular. Though, I'm not huge on training for advancement, although I don't dismiss it entirely. But I think that the idea is widely overblown in RPGs and tends to come off as very "gamist" for lack of a better term in its approach. I prefer training as a gate for learning abilities or classes that are not broadly available to everyone in the game world and stuff like that, rather than as a stick for leveling up or regular progression.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: estar on June 26, 2023, 11:15:40 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
Nothing wrong with different games but when it comes to D&D as designed there comes a point where you are no longer playing it.
Then what the objective test? Actual Play? I can say that all the players in my campaigns felt like they playing AD&D and having fun doing it.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
There are certain elements that make D&D what it is. Without defining elements there is no longer a unique identity.
As the OSR has demonstrated consistently for 15 years through numerous examples of actual play what is "D&D" even when limited to its classic editions is extraordinary far broader than what people give credit for.
That fact you really like the setting that is implied by Classic D&D RAW. Doesn't make games, like mine, that choose to run different settings with different assumptions any less D&D.
Is there any limit? Of course. There are many authors that try to leverage OSR as a form of branding or marketing for their non-D&D efforts. Yet the core of the OSR centered on the classic edition keeps chugging along with a mix of authors and hobbyists that changes slowly across the decades.
Thematically, Lamentations of the Flame Princess is very different from the world painted by Gary Gygax in AD&D yet Raggi's works are still found useful for D&D campaigns by many hobbyists. As James Raggi still uses D&D mechanics extensively in his works.
Well as far as awarding XP for roleplay and player directed objectives these can be very different things. GURPS awards XP for how well you roleplay the character that was created lovingly point by point by the player. Success or failure depends on faithfully roleplaying the character. I like the GURPS system a great deal but that doesn't make it D&D no matter how much I enjoy it. I like both games for different reasons. Sometimes awarding XP for player directed goals being achieved and good roleplay come into conflict. Suppose the group's goal was accomplished and was a smashing success. Innocent villagers had to be slaughtered in the process but that was the price of victory. Should the LG paladin be awarded full points or should alignment be ditched too because its too rigid? What if the player mission goal for the game month was to spend it drinking, gambling & whoring? How much XP would they get?
Anyone should change anything they wish to give the participants the gaming experience desired. Those changes may lead the game in different directions from D&D. For an excellent example pertinent to this discussion, check out the childrens story " Mexicali Soup". It has a very interesting lesson to teach.
Good RP and player directed objectives are just one tiny, often secondary facet of non-combat XP awards, usually taking second place to broader mission objectives and overcoming obstacles during play. And PC objectives and good RP coming into conflict is not exactly that common, and is often a factor of PCs getting involved in the right (or wrong) group to pursue their aims. If a traditional LG paladin is involved with a group that was somehow directly (as opposed to accidentally, or unable to prevent) involved in killing innocent villagers, something seriously wrong must have gone down either in that game session or the character's decision to hang out with that group.
Also, spending the month drinking, gambling & whoring aren't real mission goals, personal or otherwise, but rather pastimes. Non-combat XP usually awarded for actual accomplishments or personal sacrifices of some kind. Spending the time partying would normally net XP only if it involves good RP or the character accomplished something along the way. Maybe the PC managed to beat a well known gambler and earn some street cred during that time, or had to accomplish some task to convince a comely strumpet to spend the night with him, etc. But a player just declaring "I spent the month drinking, gambling & whoring" on it's own doesn't say much in terms of stuff that should probably be rewarded.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
I'm not terribly familiar with Runequest or GURPS and was referring more to the way old D&D handles XP for Gold in particular. Though, I'm not huge on training for advancement, although I don't dismiss it entirely. But I think that the idea is widely overblown in RPGs and tends to come off as very "gamist" for lack of a better term in its approach. I prefer training as a gate for learning abilities or classes that are not broadly available to everyone in the game world and stuff like that, rather than as a stick for leveling up or regular progression.
You made a point about the "realism" of GOld for XP. There are several well-known example like college where you pay somebody to spend time to be trained on a subject and come out more experienced then you were before.
GURPS and Runequest rules on experience reflects some of this type of training. However you can abstract it further by saying OK you can spend X GP for Y experience. Just like not all combat mechanics don't detail out the specifics of every type of injury that the character could suffer.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
I prefer training as a gate for learning abilities or classes that are not broadly available to everyone in the game world and stuff like that, rather than as a stick for leveling up or regular progression.
That a valid creative choice. And you are also right that some implementation of experience can feel more "gamey" than others. My view is that character can specifically train and thus earn XP. But they have to pay for a course of instruction/trainer and spend the time as the in-game way of doing this.
In case of Gold for XP even with the variant that you only get the XP if you spend the gold, I don't feel that it is unrealistic. I don't think it like how GURPS or Runequest handles it. The reason I dislike it has nothing to do with that. It more about that explictly tying XP gain to Gold won distracts players from enjoying the setting and having the adventures they want to have.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PMBut a player just declaring "I spent the month drinking, gambling & whoring" on it's own doesn't say much in terms of stuff that should probably be rewarded.
I find this to be a trap as a referee. Many of ills I had to deal with referee stemmed from my view about what the players ought to be doing. For me "show probably be rewarded" is a giant red flag.
My alternative is to focus on roleplaying the NPCs. And making interesting situations and interesting NPCs. I find when I do that problem of what players "ought" to be doing sorts itself out.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PMAlso, spending the month drinking, gambling & whoring aren't real mission goals, personal or otherwise, but rather pastimes.
Which leads to me asking "Why not?" it is a life lived filled with complications.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
Non-combat XP usually awarded for actual accomplishments or personal sacrifices of some kind.
What is an accomplished is a judgment call. I learned to be flexible about accomplishment. Don't get me wrong there are times when I will gloss over a lengthy period of time. A players say while Bob is scribing spells for the next month, I am drinking and whoring. And both players clearly just want to gloss it over. Then I will have them both pay their costs, Bob gets his spells, and the first player will a roll to see if something interesting happen like rumors or contacts. They may get XP for the session but ajudicating that won't cover the entire session.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
Spending the time partying would normally net XP only if it involves good RP or the character accomplished something along the way. Maybe the PC managed to beat a well known gambler and earn some street cred during that time, or had to accomplish some task to convince a comely strumpet to spend the night with him, etc. But a player just declaring "I spent the month drinking, gambling & whoring" on it's own doesn't say much in terms of stuff that should probably be rewarded.
In contrast if the player (or players) want to plant them in a tavern and drink their days away. Then I will certainly do something like the above.
I just wrapped up a City-State of the Invincible Overlord campaign, and a series of session in early part of the campaign involved the players just hanging out in the Tanglebones Tavern and doing stuff for the owner and the people who came in. Eventually they branched out to other parts of the setting and didn't visit the tavern as much. But after they got a bit of a rep after a mission.
The overall point is that RPGs are far more flexible then what most give them credit for.
Quote from: estar on June 26, 2023, 03:18:57 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
I'm not terribly familiar with Runequest or GURPS and was referring more to the way old D&D handles XP for Gold in particular. Though, I'm not huge on training for advancement, although I don't dismiss it entirely. But I think that the idea is widely overblown in RPGs and tends to come off as very "gamist" for lack of a better term in its approach. I prefer training as a gate for learning abilities or classes that are not broadly available to everyone in the game world and stuff like that, rather than as a stick for leveling up or regular progression.
You made a point about the "realism" of GOld for XP. There are several well-known example like college where you pay somebody to spend time to be trained on a subject and come out more experienced then you were before.
GURPS and Runequest rules on experience reflects some of this type of training. However you can abstract it further by saying OK you can spend X GP for Y experience. Just like not all combat mechanics don't detail out the specifics of every type of injury that the character could suffer.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
I prefer training as a gate for learning abilities or classes that are not broadly available to everyone in the game world and stuff like that, rather than as a stick for leveling up or regular progression.
That a valid creative choice. And you are also right that some implementation of experience can feel more "gamey" than others. My view is that character can specifically train and thus earn XP. But they have to pay for a course of instruction/trainer and spend the time as the in-game way of doing this.
In case of Gold for XP even with the variant that you only get the XP if you spend the gold, I don't feel that it is unrealistic. I don't think it like how GURPS or Runequest handles it. The reason I dislike it has nothing to do with that. It more about that explictly tying XP gain to Gold won distracts players from enjoying the setting and having the adventures they want to have.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PMBut a player just declaring "I spent the month drinking, gambling & whoring" on it's own doesn't say much in terms of stuff that should probably be rewarded.
I find this to be a trap as a referee. Many of ills I had to deal with referee stemmed from my view about what the players ought to be doing. For me "show probably be rewarded" is a giant red flag.
My alternative is to focus on roleplaying the NPCs. And making interesting situations and interesting NPCs. I find when I do that problem of what players "ought" to be doing sorts itself out.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PMAlso, spending the month drinking, gambling & whoring aren't real mission goals, personal or otherwise, but rather pastimes.
Which leads to me asking "Why not?" it is a life lived filled with complications.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
Non-combat XP usually awarded for actual accomplishments or personal sacrifices of some kind.
What is an accomplished is a judgment call. I learned to be flexible about accomplishment. Don't get me wrong there are times when I will gloss over a lengthy period of time. A players say while Bob is scribing spells for the next month, I am drinking and whoring. And both players clearly just want to gloss it over. Then I will have them both pay their costs, Bob gets his spells, and the first player will a roll to see if something interesting happen like rumors or contacts. They may get XP for the session but ajudicating that won't cover the entire session.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
Spending the time partying would normally net XP only if it involves good RP or the character accomplished something along the way. Maybe the PC managed to beat a well known gambler and earn some street cred during that time, or had to accomplish some task to convince a comely strumpet to spend the night with him, etc. But a player just declaring "I spent the month drinking, gambling & whoring" on it's own doesn't say much in terms of stuff that should probably be rewarded.
In contrast if the player (or players) want to plant them in a tavern and drink their days away. Then I will certainly do something like the above.
I just wrapped up a City-State of the Invincible Overlord campaign, and a series of session in early part of the campaign involved the players just hanging out in the Tanglebones Tavern and doing stuff for the owner and the people who came in. Eventually they branched out to other parts of the setting and didn't visit the tavern as much. But after they got a bit of a rep after a mission.
The overall point is that RPGs are far more flexible then what most give them credit for.
Yeah, I messed up my phrasing in some of that stuff, and perhaps came from a more "ought to" perspective than I should have (or "ought to" have ;D).
RE: Training: I already went through this at length in another thread, but I don't think that training always helps that much IRL, outside of learning new stuff. And even then you can technically learn on your own. But when it comes to getting better at stuff you already know, training can't beat on the ground experience most of the time (...in my experience ;)). And PCs will almost invariably get plenty of on the ground experience during play, specially combat related in most campaigns.
There might arguably be some specialized training programs that might help you get better if you already know stuff. But usually that's because they might teach you techniques you don't know that are new to you. And/or help you with your physical conditioning and such. Or (probably) they might involve some type of boot camp that's so intense it's almost like an adventure itself and worthy of it's own game session.
But I don't disagree with your take or your approach on it. And have tried similar stuff on the past. But XP/equivalent for training always felt a little iffy to me, cuz it incentivised characters sitting on downtime artificially getting better by throwing money at their skills without actually doing anything. It made me think "why not just skip a year or more and get a bunch of levels just cuz time went by?" And I tend to be skeptical of stuff that grants you XP/equivalent without getting stuff done in play or "earning" it through actual accomplishments.
Greetings!
I think training is very good, and entirely realistic. People that go off and do whatever "On their own" may have some natural talent, and they can learn some things from direct experience--but being professionally trained makes a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE. Untrained people may be passable, or decent--but to be exceptional, to be truly excellent, to be the master of a Craft or discipline generally requires professional training. UNTRAINED PEOPLE die a whole lot more, and generally waste enormous amounts of energy, money, resources, or time--or all of these things--where being professionally trained reduces cost in resources and time, and maximizes learning, skill development, efficiency, diverse knowledge, and more. The principle o institutional professionalization has been developed and embraced for centuries, especially by large, civilized cultures, but even more primitive cultures embrace kinds of professionalization. Professions of everything are better than maverick wannabes.
Learning to be soldier, sailor, hunter, scholar, a cook, a builder, crafter, or tradesman, everything.
Of course I use professional training for virtually everything in my Thandor World Campaigns. It makes good sense to do so, and not doing so just seems absurd.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I am a HUGE believer in the silver standard, ever since I first read an article about it in Dragon magazine back in the 80's. I guess anything is possible in a fantasy world, but the idea that a sword or spear is worth more than its weight in gold (or thereabouts) never sat right with me.
I'm not at home as I write this so I don't have my house rule monetary table to publish here, but the SP is the base coin of all my campaigns, essentially replacing the GP so the latter can become more rare valuable. In my games, copper is the coin of the commoner, silver the specie for the tradesman and what 'middle class' there is, and gold is the realm of kings and emperors, dragon hoards, deep dwarven delves, etc. Gemstones are simply value-adjusted accordingly.
I also like to substitute expert / masterwork items for low level magic items, tp prevent magic items from becoming too prolific.
Although AD&D, 2E, are among my favorite systems, I have always had a problem with the treasure taken = XP mechanic of those games, and struggled to find a good substitute that wasn't too arbitrary. To date I have not satisfactorily resolved this.
Quote from: jmarso on June 26, 2023, 06:14:11 PM
I am a HUGE believer in the silver standard, ever since I first read an article about it in Dragon magazine back in the 80's. I guess anything is possible in a fantasy world, but the idea that a sword or spear is worth more than its weight in gold (or thereabouts) never sat right with me.
I'm not at home as I write this so I don't have my house rule monetary table to publish here, but the SP is the base coin of all my campaigns, essentially replacing the GP so the latter can become more rare valuable. In my games, copper is the coin of the commoner, silver the specie for the tradesman and what 'middle class' there is, and gold is the realm of kings and emperors, dragon hoards, deep dwarven delves, etc. Gemstones are simply value-adjusted accordingly.
I also like to substitute expert / masterwork items for low level magic items, tp prevent magic items from becoming too prolific.
Although AD&D, 2E, are among my favorite systems, I have always had a problem with the treasure taken = XP mechanic of those games, and struggled to find a good substitute that wasn't too arbitrary. To date I have not satisfactorily resolved this.
In our own civilized world, it is absurd to think that something as mundane as a sword could be worth more than its weight in gold. In a fantasy realm where a good sword is not so common and there is danger everywhere, and gold is rather common due to so much of it being injected into the economy by adventurers, it is easy to imagine a good sword being worth more than its weight in gold. Value is relative to current conditions and available supply. Virtually nothing you may think of has a fixed intrinsic value regardless of circumstances or market. Bottled water is pretty cheap. Its available everywhere in plentiful supply. Lets change the circumstance to a remote cut off location after a terrible natural disaster, what then? A stash of bottled water skyrockets in value, at least until circumstance change once again. In the D&D realm we have the example of Dragonlance. Gold bricks are used as door stops. Steel pieces are the coin of the realm. Weapon grade steel is scare and thus more valuable than gold.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 08:11:00 PM
Quote from: jmarso on June 26, 2023, 06:14:11 PM
I am a HUGE believer in the silver standard, ever since I first read an article about it in Dragon magazine back in the 80's. I guess anything is possible in a fantasy world, but the idea that a sword or spear is worth more than its weight in gold (or thereabouts) never sat right with me.
I'm not at home as I write this so I don't have my house rule monetary table to publish here, but the SP is the base coin of all my campaigns, essentially replacing the GP so the latter can become more rare valuable. In my games, copper is the coin of the commoner, silver the specie for the tradesman and what 'middle class' there is, and gold is the realm of kings and emperors, dragon hoards, deep dwarven delves, etc. Gemstones are simply value-adjusted accordingly.
I also like to substitute expert / masterwork items for low level magic items, tp prevent magic items from becoming too prolific.
Although AD&D, 2E, are among my favorite systems, I have always had a problem with the treasure taken = XP mechanic of those games, and struggled to find a good substitute that wasn't too arbitrary. To date I have not satisfactorily resolved this.
In our own civilized world, it is absurd to think that something as mundane as a sword could be worth more than its weight in gold. In a fantasy realm where a good sword is not so common and there is danger everywhere, and gold is rather common due to so much of it being injected into the economy by adventurers, it is easy to imagine a good sword being worth more than its weight in gold. Value is relative to current conditions and available supply. Virtually nothing you may think of has a fixed intrinsic value regardless of circumstances or market. Bottled water is pretty cheap. Its available everywhere in plentiful supply. Lets change the circumstance to a remote cut off location after a terrible natural disaster, what then? A stash of bottled water skyrockets in value, at least until circumstance change once again. In the D&D realm we have the example of Dragonlance. Gold bricks are used as door stops. Steel pieces are the coin of the realm. Weapon grade steel is scare and thus more valuable than gold.
So you're okay with DL making things even more absurd than baseline D&D, but not okay if we make things less absurd and closer to, say, medieval England?
(Also, a "good sword" is one thing, but what about a CLUB costing half a pound of gold? Does gold grow on trees in D&Dland? Wouldn't it be easier to produce clubs than to risk your life in a dungeon?)
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 26, 2023, 08:23:00 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 08:11:00 PM
Quote from: jmarso on June 26, 2023, 06:14:11 PM
I am a HUGE believer in the silver standard, ever since I first read an article about it in Dragon magazine back in the 80's. I guess anything is possible in a fantasy world, but the idea that a sword or spear is worth more than its weight in gold (or thereabouts) never sat right with me.
I'm not at home as I write this so I don't have my house rule monetary table to publish here, but the SP is the base coin of all my campaigns, essentially replacing the GP so the latter can become more rare valuable. In my games, copper is the coin of the commoner, silver the specie for the tradesman and what 'middle class' there is, and gold is the realm of kings and emperors, dragon hoards, deep dwarven delves, etc. Gemstones are simply value-adjusted accordingly.
I also like to substitute expert / masterwork items for low level magic items, tp prevent magic items from becoming too prolific.
Although AD&D, 2E, are among my favorite systems, I have always had a problem with the treasure taken = XP mechanic of those games, and struggled to find a good substitute that wasn't too arbitrary. To date I have not satisfactorily resolved this.
In our own civilized world, it is absurd to think that something as mundane as a sword could be worth more than its weight in gold. In a fantasy realm where a good sword is not so common and there is danger everywhere, and gold is rather common due to so much of it being injected into the economy by adventurers, it is easy to imagine a good sword being worth more than its weight in gold. Value is relative to current conditions and available supply. Virtually nothing you may think of has a fixed intrinsic value regardless of circumstances or market. Bottled water is pretty cheap. Its available everywhere in plentiful supply. Lets change the circumstance to a remote cut off location after a terrible natural disaster, what then? A stash of bottled water skyrockets in value, at least until circumstance change once again. In the D&D realm we have the example of Dragonlance. Gold bricks are used as door stops. Steel pieces are the coin of the realm. Weapon grade steel is scare and thus more valuable than gold.
So you're okay with DL making things even more absurd than baseline D&D, but not okay if we make things less absurd and closer to, say, medieval England?
(Also, a "good sword" is one thing, but what about a CLUB costing half a pound of gold? Does gold grow on trees in D&Dland? Wouldn't it be easier to produce clubs than to risk your life in a dungeon?)
A fucking Club costing half a pound of gold is fine because magic and dragons.
Don't get me worng, I play AD&D2e every week and I'm having a blast, I can overlook those issues. Doesn't mean that a game more close to a realistic Medieval (wherever) is bad, and fixing D&D to accomplish that isn't either bad nor impossible, you might find you need to change other things downstream but haven't we ALWAYS houseruled the shit out of the game?
I don't remember right now but Lion & Dragon might have some stuff worth looking at in that regard.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 26, 2023, 08:32:41 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 26, 2023, 08:23:00 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 08:11:00 PM
Quote from: jmarso on June 26, 2023, 06:14:11 PM
I am a HUGE believer in the silver standard, ever since I first read an article about it in Dragon magazine back in the 80's. I guess anything is possible in a fantasy world, but the idea that a sword or spear is worth more than its weight in gold (or thereabouts) never sat right with me.
I'm not at home as I write this so I don't have my house rule monetary table to publish here, but the SP is the base coin of all my campaigns, essentially replacing the GP so the latter can become more rare valuable. In my games, copper is the coin of the commoner, silver the specie for the tradesman and what 'middle class' there is, and gold is the realm of kings and emperors, dragon hoards, deep dwarven delves, etc. Gemstones are simply value-adjusted accordingly.
I also like to substitute expert / masterwork items for low level magic items, tp prevent magic items from becoming too prolific.
Although AD&D, 2E, are among my favorite systems, I have always had a problem with the treasure taken = XP mechanic of those games, and struggled to find a good substitute that wasn't too arbitrary. To date I have not satisfactorily resolved this.
In our own civilized world, it is absurd to think that something as mundane as a sword could be worth more than its weight in gold. In a fantasy realm where a good sword is not so common and there is danger everywhere, and gold is rather common due to so much of it being injected into the economy by adventurers, it is easy to imagine a good sword being worth more than its weight in gold. Value is relative to current conditions and available supply. Virtually nothing you may think of has a fixed intrinsic value regardless of circumstances or market. Bottled water is pretty cheap. Its available everywhere in plentiful supply. Lets change the circumstance to a remote cut off location after a terrible natural disaster, what then? A stash of bottled water skyrockets in value, at least until circumstance change once again. In the D&D realm we have the example of Dragonlance. Gold bricks are used as door stops. Steel pieces are the coin of the realm. Weapon grade steel is scare and thus more valuable than gold.
So you're okay with DL making things even more absurd than baseline D&D, but not okay if we make things less absurd and closer to, say, medieval England?
(Also, a "good sword" is one thing, but what about a CLUB costing half a pound of gold? Does gold grow on trees in D&Dland? Wouldn't it be easier to produce clubs than to risk your life in a dungeon?)
A fucking Club costing half a pound of gold is fine because magic and dragons.
Don't get me worng, I play AD&D2e every week and I'm having a blast, I can overlook those issues. Doesn't mean that a game more close to a realistic Medieval (wherever) is bad, and fixing D&D to accomplish that isn't either bad nor impossible, you might find you need to change other things downstream but haven't we ALWAYS houseruled the shit out of the game?
I don't remember right now but Lion & Dragon might have some stuff worth looking at in that regard.
Yeah, I was fine just overlooking these issues, but now that I've seen it apparently I am unable to unsee it... Fortunately we can just houserule that out indeed! Might take a look at L&D...
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 26, 2023, 04:34:32 PM
But I don't disagree with your take or your approach on it. And have tried similar stuff on the past. But XP/equivalent for training always felt a little iffy to me, cuz it incentivised characters sitting on downtime artificially getting better by throwing money at their skills without actually doing anything. It made me think "why not just skip a year or more and get a bunch of levels just cuz time went by?" And I tend to be skeptical of stuff that grants you XP/equivalent without getting stuff done in play or "earning" it through actual accomplishments.
Truth be told, most group who play my campaigns don't want take advantage of downtime. The downside of successfully creating a feeling that the world is in motion is players feeling if they take a time-out to do something they will be "left behind". One group went out of its way to hire others to do things like craft potions, collect cargo (they had a sailing sail) to avoid taking downtime themselves.
The only system and setting where downtime was taken advantage of was AiME and Middle Earth. That was mostly because it was to get rid of shadow.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 26, 2023, 08:23:00 PM
So you're okay with DL making things even more absurd than baseline D&D, but not okay if we make things less absurd and closer to, say, medieval England?
(Also, a "good sword" is one thing, but what about a CLUB costing half a pound of gold? Does gold grow on trees in D&Dland? Wouldn't it be easier to produce clubs than to risk your life in a dungeon?)
When it comes to fantasy, there is very little that can considered absurd. A club does not cost a half a pound of gold in any case. In B/X a club costs 5gp. 1 cn of encumbrance does not translate directly to a tenth of a pound of weight. Encumbrance is a game construct meant to limit how much loot can be easily hauled away and thus count for XP. It is a game construct. ALL of this nonsense is simply a game construct which got lost in the shuffle as soon as folks started taking the game WAY more seriously than a game of Stratego or Monopoly. Leaving that there lets look at reasons why a club might cost adventurers 5gp. Joe and Bob, two villagers who live in the fantasy hamlet not far from an old ruined keep, would give a single silver shilling for a stick, no mater if it was well made. The folks around this place scrounge for copper, and barter often takes place. In to town comes a group of swaggering popinjays in fancy armor & clothes, spending more than a months wages at the pub having drinks and chatting up Billybob who claimed to have an uncle that swore he visited that keep in his youth. Word spreads fast that these newcomers are loaded. Thus prices for EVERYTHING get jacked up to take some of this wealth off the new visitors. "Why yes sir this is the finest club to be had. Lovingly crafted it is. I could part with it for say, a mere 5 gold and that's slitting me own throat." Astonishingly, the visitor pays it without a second thought! Now this club producing business model only makes sense if there is a steady stream of visitors coming through town with more gold than brains. If so, the club selling business makes sense. That doesn't make a club worth any more to the other locals. It is much like the expensive souvenirs sold to visitors in tourist traps. The items don't have hardly any value to the locals. Visitors pay for a memento of a vacation which has sentimental value, thus pay the jacked up prices, not because they think it worth much themselves.
Quotewhat about a CLUB costing half a pound of gold?
I've been following this discussion and you keep saying this. I don't remember that clubs had a cost in the PHB.
What source are you using that states a club costs 5gp?
Quote from: Melichor on June 26, 2023, 10:00:22 PM
I've been following this discussion and you keep saying this. I don't remember that clubs had a cost in the PHB.
What source are you using that states a club costs 5gp?
In Moldvay B/X EVERYTHING on the equipment list was in gp. Nothing on the list cost less than 1gp. Add that to the belief that encumbrance is strictly weight and Bob's your uncle, a club costs a half a pound of gold.
Quote from: Melichor on June 26, 2023, 10:00:22 PM
Quotewhat about a CLUB costing half a pound of gold?
I've been following this discussion and you keep saying this. I don't remember that clubs had a cost in the PHB.
What source are you using that states a club costs 5gp?
B/X.
But I misremembered: a club costs 3 gp rather than 5.
It is GARLIC that costs 5 gp.
My bad.
But at least garlic price has fewer apologists. :)
A dagger weights as much as 10 gp, for weight comparison.
EDIT: the strangest thing is that I actually use most of the prices as written. B/X is my favorite D&D, and now I'm starting to like AD&D a lot. There are few things I like to fix: silver standard, lighter coins, cheaper clubs and garlic. The insistence that everything makes sense if you do enough mental gymnastics is baffling to me. Clubs with sentimental value? Wow.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 26, 2023, 11:17:07 PM
EDIT: the strangest thing is that I actually use most of the prices as written. B/X is my favorite D&D, and now I'm starting to like AD&D a lot. There are few things I like to fix: silver standard, lighter coins, cheaper clubs and garlic. The insistence that everything makes sense if you do enough mental gymnastics is baffling to me. Clubs with sentimental value? Wow.
When I first started playing D&D, I never thought about "realism" because I was literally playing a game where my character could go into a dungeon and kill dragons. I graduated to AD&D and it didn't take long to wonder why boots cost 2GP while leather armor was only 5GP. Why? These prices made no "realistic" sense considering this was GOLD we're talking about. So I started down the path, chasing historical accuracy because AD&D was a medieval game with dragons so I figured it'd make a better game with a more "realistic" economic system. Chivalry & Sorcery presented the ideal for me because it was accurate in so far as my 13 year old self could tell. This led to wondering why there were weird monsters in underground lairs just waiting to be killed, inexplicably. Why did they have large chests of treasure just sitting there to be taken? That didn't make any sense. Thus the pursuit began for even more "realistic" games. Essentially I chased the notion of "realism" for many years until finally realizing that the whole point in playing was to have fun, it wasn't to simulate reality. AD&D isn't a medieval world simulator with dragons, it's a pulp adventure board game with rules to facilitate interesting play. There's nothing to "fix". Personal tastes can lead one to want to do things in a different way; I think that's why so many variations of RPGs exist. But when you lose the forest for the trees and really start watching how the sausage is made (to conflate multiple analogies) you're never ever ever going to be happy. Ever. There will always be something you'd choose to do differently until eventually you write your own game and aren't even satisfied with that, either. Playing is the entire point, and if it's fun to play then the game succeeds.
I've stopped worrying about stupid bullshit like "realistic" economies because that's functionally irrelevant to fun play after a certain point. And this isn't something I've thought for a long while; when ACKS was released I bitched about coins being used for the "realistic" economy which was unlike anything in the real world. Who gives a fuck? It's a game; concessions have to be made to get to the good parts like sneaking into elephant towers and skulking around forgotten cities. I want to be Conan, not Irving Scheklestein the accountant. Conan wastes money as soon as he finds it and is always broke, always looking for adventure. A dragon's horde is pissed away in a single night on ale and whores. Worrying about whether or not a cabbage should be 1CP or 2CP, depending on the time of season, is the concern of peons and rubes. Conan has no time to count pennies, he has skulls to crack.
8) But what if you're a Conan who wants to roleplay being an Irving or Mortimer? :'( Can't Conan's dream of double entry bookkeeping, too?
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2023, 05:51:35 AM
[I want to be Conan, not Irving Scheklestein the accountant. Conan wastes money as soon as he finds it and is always broke, always looking for adventure.
Yes, I feel exactly like this.
BTW, Conan almost never finds a magic item, as mentioned above, and will not keep them for more than one story. Or pay money for training or hirelings. IIRC Conan DOES spend gold on prostitutes, which might be the reason AD&D has such a table... But it depends on the type of game you're going for, I think.
And "realism" is not really the point, I agree.
It is just that some things sticks out like a sore thumb for me. Could be just a matter of taste, since I like medieval weapons, for example. I'm not particularly interested in armor, so if there is something wrong with gambeson, leather or scale, or if there is redundancy in "chain mail", it doesn't bothers me as much as a weak mace.
Take tieflings, for example. Shouldn't be a problem in a game where you fight dragons, or you could BE a balor/dragon originally. And I'm mostly okay with them, but recently they started to bother me, and I've started seeing the value of an all-human campaign. Again, not about realism, but the fact that there are demon-people walking around without notice started to wreck my suspension of disbelief as much as garlic costing 5 gp.
(Again, setting-specific: I'm okay with them in Ravnica, Planescape, etc.)
Quote from: Opaopajr on June 27, 2023, 06:59:12 AM
8) But what if you're a Conan who wants to roleplay being an Irving or Mortimer? :'( Can't Conan's dream of double entry bookkeeping, too?
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/2d/Papers_and_Paychecks.jpg)
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 27, 2023, 09:01:32 AM
Yes, I feel exactly like this.
BTW, Conan almost never finds a magic item, as mentioned above, and will not keep them for more than one story. Or pay money for training or hirelings. IIRC Conan DOES spend gold on prostitutes, which might be the reason AD&D has such a table... But it depends on the type of game you're going for, I think.
Yeah, that's true. He says they're more trouble than they're worth. But AD&D just isn't Conan, it's also Elric and the Gray Mouser, HP Lovecraft, a little bit of John Carter and Flash Gordon, etc. An amalgam of all the pulp stuff in varying degrees so you have to make concessions in some places. Or just not use Greyhawk, which pretty much means you can't use AD&D without A LOT of work, and in that case you might as well make your own game, as stated. Which is what everyone under the sun does once they get tired of AD&D.
QuoteAnd "realism" is not really the point, I agree.
It is just that some things sticks out like a sore thumb for me. Could be just a matter of taste, since I like medieval weapons, for example. I'm not particularly interested in armor, so if there is something wrong with gambeson, leather or scale, or if there is redundancy in "chain mail", it doesn't bothers me as much as a weak mace.
It's the same reason I get annoyed with how some modern games treat certain weapons, ESPECIALLY shotguns. Half the time I'm wondering if the writers have every used a firearm in their lives...but that's life. Change stuff as needed to fit how you think they should work.
QuoteTake tieflings, for example. Shouldn't be a problem in a game where you fight dragons, or you could BE a balor/dragon originally. And I'm mostly okay with them, but recently they started to bother me, and I've started seeing the value of an all-human campaign. Again, not about realism, but the fact that there are demon-people walking around without notice started to wreck my suspension of disbelief as much as garlic costing 5 gp.
(Again, setting-specific: I'm okay with them in Ravnica, Planescape, etc.)
AD&D stresses humanocentric campaigning because outside of Lord of the Rings most of the important pulp and fantasy characters are human (or human enough); it emulates S&S and pulp fairly well when you use mostly humans. 5th edition D&D has gone the other route and essentially emulates modern videogames like World of Warcraft. It's much more cartoony in appearance and outlook, and crap like tieflings does nothing but stress this aesthetic. I would be okay with stuff like dragonborn and tieflings IF they weren't so fucking ubiquitous and actually acted alien. Instead they're just humans with scales or horns and some Hot Topic clothing; the game starts to feel more like an episode of Three's Company than an epic Kull tale.
5GP garlic is part of a dumb economy meant to get to the good parts of the game; tieflings radically change things to such a degree you're playing cartoon characters instead of adventurers.
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2023, 09:29:40 AM
5GP garlic is part of a dumb economy meant to get to the good parts of the game; tieflings radically change things to such a degree you're playing cartoon characters instead of adventurers.
I almost spit my coffee! Reading this I instantly thought of that scene in Last Action Hero.
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2023, 09:29:40 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr on June 27, 2023, 06:59:12 AM
8) But what if you're a Conan who wants to roleplay being an Irving or Mortimer? :'( Can't Conan's dream of double entry bookkeeping, too?
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/2d/Papers_and_Paychecks.jpg)
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 27, 2023, 09:01:32 AM
Yes, I feel exactly like this.
BTW, Conan almost never finds a magic item, as mentioned above, and will not keep them for more than one story. Or pay money for training or hirelings. IIRC Conan DOES spend gold on prostitutes, which might be the reason AD&D has such a table... But it depends on the type of game you're going for, I think.
Yeah, that's true. He says they're more trouble than they're worth. But AD&D just isn't Conan, it's also Elric and the Gray Mouser, HP Lovecraft, a little bit of John Carter and Flash Gordon, etc. An amalgam of all the pulp stuff in varying degrees so you have to make concessions in some places. Or just not use Greyhawk, which pretty much means you can't use AD&D without A LOT of work, and in that case you might as well make your own game, as stated. Which is what everyone under the sun does once they get tired of AD&D.
QuoteAnd "realism" is not really the point, I agree.
It is just that some things sticks out like a sore thumb for me. Could be just a matter of taste, since I like medieval weapons, for example. I'm not particularly interested in armor, so if there is something wrong with gambeson, leather or scale, or if there is redundancy in "chain mail", it doesn't bothers me as much as a weak mace.
It's the same reason I get annoyed with how some modern games treat certain weapons, ESPECIALLY shotguns. Half the time I'm wondering if the writers have every used a firearm in their lives...but that's life. Change stuff as needed to fit how you think they should work.
QuoteTake tieflings, for example. Shouldn't be a problem in a game where you fight dragons, or you could BE a balor/dragon originally. And I'm mostly okay with them, but recently they started to bother me, and I've started seeing the value of an all-human campaign. Again, not about realism, but the fact that there are demon-people walking around without notice started to wreck my suspension of disbelief as much as garlic costing 5 gp.
(Again, setting-specific: I'm okay with them in Ravnica, Planescape, etc.)
AD&D stresses humanocentric campaigning because outside of Lord of the Rings most of the important pulp and fantasy characters are human (or human enough); it emulates S&S and pulp fairly well when you use mostly humans. 5th edition D&D has gone the other route and essentially emulates modern videogames like World of Warcraft. It's much more cartoony in appearance and outlook, and crap like tieflings does nothing but stress this aesthetic. I would be okay with stuff like dragonborn and tieflings IF they weren't so fucking ubiquitous and actually acted alien. Instead they're just humans with scales or horns and some Hot Topic clothing; the game starts to feel more like an episode of Three's Company than an epic Kull tale.
5GP garlic is part of a dumb economy meant to get to the good parts of the game; tieflings radically change things to such a degree you're playing cartoon characters instead of adventurers.
To further this, Appendix N when refrencing Moorcock iirc says Especially Hawkmoon and hawkmoon gets new magic items every book, besides the Black Jewel which is a detriment but is an aspect of the Black Sword he also get, the mad gods amulet, the sword of the dawn. And the runestaff and im probably forgetting a few (not counting the Flamelances since they're hi-tech energy weapons)
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2023, 09:29:40 AM
Yeah, that's true. He says they're more trouble than they're worth. But AD&D just isn't Conan, it's also Elric and the Gray Mouser, HP Lovecraft, a little bit of John Carter and Flash Gordon, etc. An amalgam of all the pulp stuff in varying degrees so you have to make concessions in some places. Or just not use Greyhawk, which pretty much means you can't use AD&D without A LOT of work, and in that case you might as well make your own game, as stated. Which is what everyone under the sun does once they get tired of AD&D.
QuoteAnd "realism" is not really the point, I agree.
It is just that some things sticks out like a sore thumb for me. Could be just a matter of taste, since I like medieval weapons, for example. I'm not particularly interested in armor, so if there is something wrong with gambeson, leather or scale, or if there is redundancy in "chain mail", it doesn't bothers me as much as a weak mace.
It's the same reason I get annoyed with how some modern games treat certain weapons, ESPECIALLY shotguns. Half the time I'm wondering if the writers have every used a firearm in their lives...but that's life. Change stuff as needed to fit how you think they should work.
QuoteTake tieflings, for example. Shouldn't be a problem in a game where you fight dragons, or you could BE a balor/dragon originally. And I'm mostly okay with them, but recently they started to bother me, and I've started seeing the value of an all-human campaign. Again, not about realism, but the fact that there are demon-people walking around without notice started to wreck my suspension of disbelief as much as garlic costing 5 gp.
(Again, setting-specific: I'm okay with them in Ravnica, Planescape, etc.)
AD&D stresses humanocentric campaigning because outside of Lord of the Rings most of the important pulp and fantasy characters are human (or human enough); it emulates S&S and pulp fairly well when you use mostly humans. 5th edition D&D has gone the other route and essentially emulates modern videogames like World of Warcraft. It's much more cartoony in appearance and outlook, and crap like tieflings does nothing but stress this aesthetic. I would be okay with stuff like dragonborn and tieflings IF they weren't so fucking ubiquitous and actually acted alien. Instead they're just humans with scales or horns and some Hot Topic clothing; the game starts to feel more like an episode of Three's Company than an epic Kull tale.
5GP garlic is part of a dumb economy meant to get to the good parts of the game; tieflings radically change things to such a degree you're playing cartoon characters instead of adventurers.
Good points.
- Elric, Gray Mouser, HP Lovecraft, John Carter and Flash Gordon... they don't get tons of magic items either IIRC. But maybe Hawkmoon does! Or Vance characters (not sure).
- Guns: Exactly this! I have much more experience with martial arts (and maybe even math) than guns, which is why I can easily overlook the differences between different guns in modern games, but spend hours trying to daggers and maces to work as I'd like in the game.
- Garlic x tieflings: I'll concede garlic is much easier to ignore and 'fix" than tieflings! :D
Quote from: Slambo on June 27, 2023, 10:11:12 AM
To further this, Appendix N when refrencing Moorcock iirc says Especially Hawkmoon and hawkmoon gets new magic items every book, besides the Black Jewel which is a detriment but is an aspect of the Black Sword he also get, the mad gods amulet, the sword of the dawn. And the runestaff and im probably forgetting a few (not counting the Flamelances since they're hi-tech energy weapons)
Good catch!
"Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; "Hawkmoon" series (esp. the first three books)"
I haven't read it, but I love Elric (and Corum, although I only read a little). Maybe I should check it out.
STORMBRINGER is also a good example. OOH, I love the book and the whole concept of an intelligent sword, OTOH I think D&D takes it to extremes with rtoo many intelligent swords.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 27, 2023, 11:43:25 AM
- Guns: Exactly this! I have much more experience with martial arts (and maybe even math) than guns, which is why I can easily overlook the differences between different guns in modern games, but spend hours trying to daggers and maces to work as I'd like in the game.
The best overall treatment of combat and weapons I have played with in a game was with GURPS. Honestly the only reason I am not running it nowadays is that support for it is pretty much dead. Fantasy is only supported with powered dungeon romping. Gone are the days of Harkwood & Tredroy. I just don't have the time these days to write everything myself. If I did then there wouldn't be any time to actually play it. I feel really let down by SJG after buying over 60 GURPS books and fourth Ed which I actually liked then ........nothing.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 27, 2023, 12:57:47 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 27, 2023, 11:43:25 AM
- Guns: Exactly this! I have much more experience with martial arts (and maybe even math) than guns, which is why I can easily overlook the differences between different guns in modern games, but spend hours trying to daggers and maces to work as I'd like in the game.
The best overall treatment of combat and weapons I have played with in a game was with GURPS. Honestly the only reason I am not running it nowadays is that support for it is pretty much dead. Fantasy is only supported with powered dungeon romping. Gone are the days of Harkwood & Tredroy. I just don't have the time these days to write everything myself. If I did then there wouldn't be any time to actually play it. I feel really let down by SJG after buying over 60 GURPS books and fourth Ed which I actually liked then ........nothing.
I think you hit the nail on the head! I played GURPS for decades and I'm more or less used to GURPS combat. I stopped playing it for a couple of reasons (some because the game, some because SJ basically said he doesn't want pro-life fans - IIRC, might be misremembering), but I really like how weapons work in GURPS. Had some good times in Yrth too!
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 27, 2023, 12:57:47 PM
The best overall treatment of combat and weapons I have played with in a game was with GURPS. Honestly the only reason I am not running it nowadays is that support for it is pretty much dead. Fantasy is only supported with powered dungeon romping. Gone are the days of Harkwood & Tredroy. I just don't have the time these days to write everything myself. If I did then there wouldn't be any time to actually play it. I feel really let down by SJG after buying over 60 GURPS books and fourth Ed which I actually liked then ........nothing.
I know I am repeating myself, but GURPS 3rd is the best RPG for gritty fantasy using just the main book. You don't need anything else. When I was a poor school kid and could afford only one book, I got the GURPS basic set and ran many, many games using the solitaire adventure and the caravan one as a template. One of the major appeals were the weapons and combat system, which I felt were vastly better than AD&D during my "Fuck Gygax, fuck TSR" phase. At one point I vowed to only play GURPS forever more which lasted about a couple weeks before I got Rifts...anyway, I ended up selling a complete set of 4th edition hardcovers because I really didn't care for it compared to 3rd. of which I have about 30(?) sourcebooks. I'd play GURPS now if someone wanted to run a campaign, and I'd run it if they wanted to play in one. But Munchkin probably brings in 99% of the revenue for SJGames, which means GURPS' days are probably numbered unless you want to buy Yet Another 12 page PDF about some random bullshit.
EDIT: ^^^seems we're all on the same page here
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2023, 01:11:56 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 27, 2023, 12:57:47 PM
The best overall treatment of combat and weapons I have played with in a game was with GURPS. Honestly the only reason I am not running it nowadays is that support for it is pretty much dead. Fantasy is only supported with powered dungeon romping. Gone are the days of Harkwood & Tredroy. I just don't have the time these days to write everything myself. If I did then there wouldn't be any time to actually play it. I feel really let down by SJG after buying over 60 GURPS books and fourth Ed which I actually liked then ........nothing.
I know I am repeating myself, but GURPS 3rd is the best RPG for gritty fantasy using just the main book. You don't need anything else. When I was a poor school kid and could afford only one book, I got the GURPS basic set and ran many, many games using the solitaire adventure and the caravan one as a template. One of the major appeals were the weapons and combat system, which I felt were vastly better than AD&D during my "Fuck Gygax, fuck TSR" phase. At one point I vowed to only play GURPS forever more which lasted about a couple weeks before I got Rifts...anyway, I ended up selling a complete set of 4th edition hardcovers because I really didn't care for it compared to 3rd. of which I have about 30(?) sourcebooks. I'd play GURPS now if someone wanted to run a campaign, and I'd run it if they wanted to play in one. But Munchkin probably brings in 99% of the revenue for SJGames, which means GURPS' days are probably numbered unless you want to buy Yet Another 12 page PDF about some random bullshit.
EDIT: ^^^seems we're all on the same page here
Another GURPS fan, nice! Yeah, GURPS had weapons of different qualities and even obsidian weapons in the core rulebooks, which really impressed me (at least in 4e; I played 3e more but remember it less). Also has critical hits tables, which I enjoy. And I had a similar experience not being able to buy Supers for some reason and trying to adapt spells to function like powers (which is a thing in 3e Magic).
Unfortunately it seems SJG just isn't keeping up with the times.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 27, 2023, 11:43:25 AM
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2023, 09:29:40 AM
Yeah, that's true. He says they're more trouble than they're worth. But AD&D just isn't Conan, it's also Elric and the Gray Mouser, HP Lovecraft, a little bit of John Carter and Flash Gordon, etc. An amalgam of all the pulp stuff in varying degrees so you have to make concessions in some places. Or just not use Greyhawk, which pretty much means you can't use AD&D without A LOT of work, and in that case you might as well make your own game, as stated. Which is what everyone under the sun does once they get tired of AD&D.
QuoteAnd "realism" is not really the point, I agree.
It is just that some things sticks out like a sore thumb for me. Could be just a matter of taste, since I like medieval weapons, for example. I'm not particularly interested in armor, so if there is something wrong with gambeson, leather or scale, or if there is redundancy in "chain mail", it doesn't bothers me as much as a weak mace.
It's the same reason I get annoyed with how some modern games treat certain weapons, ESPECIALLY shotguns. Half the time I'm wondering if the writers have every used a firearm in their lives...but that's life. Change stuff as needed to fit how you think they should work.
QuoteTake tieflings, for example. Shouldn't be a problem in a game where you fight dragons, or you could BE a balor/dragon originally. And I'm mostly okay with them, but recently they started to bother me, and I've started seeing the value of an all-human campaign. Again, not about realism, but the fact that there are demon-people walking around without notice started to wreck my suspension of disbelief as much as garlic costing 5 gp.
(Again, setting-specific: I'm okay with them in Ravnica, Planescape, etc.)
AD&D stresses humanocentric campaigning because outside of Lord of the Rings most of the important pulp and fantasy characters are human (or human enough); it emulates S&S and pulp fairly well when you use mostly humans. 5th edition D&D has gone the other route and essentially emulates modern videogames like World of Warcraft. It's much more cartoony in appearance and outlook, and crap like tieflings does nothing but stress this aesthetic. I would be okay with stuff like dragonborn and tieflings IF they weren't so fucking ubiquitous and actually acted alien. Instead they're just humans with scales or horns and some Hot Topic clothing; the game starts to feel more like an episode of Three's Company than an epic Kull tale.
5GP garlic is part of a dumb economy meant to get to the good parts of the game; tieflings radically change things to such a degree you're playing cartoon characters instead of adventurers.
Good points.
- Elric, Gray Mouser, HP Lovecraft, John Carter and Flash Gordon... they don't get tons of magic items either IIRC. But maybe Hawkmoon does! Or Vance characters (not sure).
- Guns: Exactly this! I have much more experience with martial arts (and maybe even math) than guns, which is why I can easily overlook the differences between different guns in modern games, but spend hours trying to daggers and maces to work as I'd like in the game.
- Garlic x tieflings: I'll concede garlic is much easier to ignore and 'fix" than tieflings! :D
Quote from: Slambo on June 27, 2023, 10:11:12 AM
To further this, Appendix N when refrencing Moorcock iirc says Especially Hawkmoon and hawkmoon gets new magic items every book, besides the Black Jewel which is a detriment but is an aspect of the Black Sword he also get, the mad gods amulet, the sword of the dawn. And the runestaff and im probably forgetting a few (not counting the Flamelances since they're hi-tech energy weapons)
Good catch!
"Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; "Hawkmoon" series (esp. the first three books)"
I haven't read it, but I love Elric (and Corum, although I only read a little). Maybe I should check it out.
STORMBRINGER is also a good example. OOH, I love the book and the whole concept of an intelligent sword, OTOH I think D&D takes it to extremes with rtoo many intelligent swords.
Vance characters go from some having just a few magic items to some having mansions full of magical doodads. Especially IOUN stones
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 27, 2023, 11:43:25 AM
- Elric, Gray Mouser, HP Lovecraft, John Carter and Flash Gordon... they don't get tons of magic items either IIRC. But maybe Hawkmoon does! Or Vance characters (not sure).
Well, John Carter, Flash Gordon and most of the HP Lovecraft stories are more sci-fi than fantasy, so the amazing technology is doing the work of magic. Haven't read/seen that much Flash Gordon. John Carter is pretty low tech for sci fi. Aside from the actual interplanatary travel, I think it's mostly just guns, airships and domesticated alien creatures. Lovecraft has a lot of amazing stuff, from lightning guns to brain jars, including some more apparently magical tools like the Elder Sign or the Silver Key, but that stuff is mostly used against the protagonists, rather than by them. The same is true of a character like Conan or Kull. There's lots of magical items in those stories, but the protagonists don't personally wield them. Solomon Kane has his magic staff, but that's it.
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser get a fair few magic items throughout the stories, but they're usually one-offs that are foisted on them by Ningauble and/or Sheelba, and only appear in one story.
Moorcock is usually the odd man out in this conversation. Elric has a tremendous amount of magic at his disposal. Not just Stormbringer (which is absurdly powerful alone), but he also has the Actorios Stone in his ring, which is critical to his ability summon demons and elementals, and later gets the Sad Giant's Shield and the Horn of Fate. That's on top of the various potions he uses throughout the stories, and his own native sorcery and ability to control dragons.
Much as I love the Elric stories, he's probably one of the most overpowered characters in all of fiction. :P
EDIT: It's a general trend in swords-and-sorcery fiction that wizard = bad guy. That's one of the biggest reasons that I argue D&D will never be good at emulating that genre. In instances where you do get wizard protagonists (such as Vance and arguably Elric) the magic items tend to flow a lot more freely.
It may be worth mentioning that in 1E, clubs are essentially free, so within the umbrella of old-school, there is no limit to how low the price of a club can be. Meanwhile, in the real world, you'd need about 600 oz in gold to buy Babe Ruth's first bat. Somewhere in between I'm sure there's a custom pimp cane usable as a baton-style weapon priced right around 5 gp, whatever that is (definitely not a half pound of gold).
The fact is (real life economics) wine is not expensive because good vineyard land is expensive. Rather good vineyard land is expensive because people are willing to pay high prices for wine.
The most salient factor in the prices on adventurer-grade equipment are the prices that PCs are willing to pay for them. The costs of production are going to adapt to that. Sure. Adventurers are a tiny percentage of the population. But I don't think the amount of wealth adventurers deal is insignificant. The pareto rule estimates 80% of wealth will be held by the top 20%, 64% of wealth will be held by the top 4%, and 51.2% of wealth will be held by the top 0.8%. As we often hear, the wealthiest 1% controls more than half the wealth. In the section on finding henchmen in the 1E DMG, there's an intimation that adventures/leveled characters make up 0.5 to 1 percent of the population.
Adventurers aren't the entire economy. But they are half of it. And I think that's what you find in 1E. I think it's done an admirable job of handling both realistic and mythical levels of play, and doing it under one system so you can walk through from one to the other in the zero-to-hero system. And the in-game economy likewise hybridizes the economy that makes sense when it centers around adventurers while also having a normal economy. You can see this when the 1E DMG gets into the prices of hirelings. The going rate for unskilled labor is 1 gp per month. But a Blacksmith is 30 gp per month, and an armorer 100 gp per month. There's definitely an intentional telescoping effect.
Quote from: Lunamancer on June 28, 2023, 08:17:00 AM
It may be worth mentioning that in 1E, clubs are essentially free, so within the umbrella of old-school, there is no limit to how low the price of a club can be. Meanwhile, in the real world, you'd need about 600 oz in gold to buy Babe Ruth's first bat. Somewhere in between I'm sure there's a custom pimp cane usable as a baton-style weapon priced right around 5 gp, whatever that is (definitely not a half pound of gold).
The fact is (real life economics) wine is not expensive because good vineyard land is expensive. Rather good vineyard land is expensive because people are willing to pay high prices for wine.
The most salient factor in the prices on adventurer-grade equipment are the prices that PCs are willing to pay for them. The costs of production are going to adapt to that. Sure. Adventurers are a tiny percentage of the population. But I don't think the amount of wealth adventurers deal is insignificant. The pareto rule estimates 80% of wealth will be held by the top 20%, 64% of wealth will be held by the top 4%, and 51.2% of wealth will be held by the top 0.8%. As we often hear, the wealthiest 1% controls more than half the wealth. In the section on finding henchmen in the 1E DMG, there's an intimation that adventures/leveled characters make up 0.5 to 1 percent of the population.
Adventurers aren't the entire economy. But they are half of it. And I think that's what you find in 1E. I think it's done an admirable job of handling both realistic and mythical levels of play, and doing it under one system so you can walk through from one to the other in the zero-to-hero system. And the in-game economy likewise hybridizes the economy that makes sense when it centers around adventurers while also having a normal economy. You can see this when the 1E DMG gets into the prices of hirelings. The going rate for unskilled labor is 1 gp per month. But a Blacksmith is 30 gp per month, and an armorer 100 gp per month. There's definitely an intentional telescoping effect.
Yes this is all linked to what I was talking about when a relatively large hoard of wealth coughed up from a dungeon is brought to town that is normally fairly cash poor. Everyone in that area will be doing whatever they can to get their hands on as much of that gold as they can. The more remote the locale ( and thus the least competition) the higher prices will increase for unique goods and services. Simple economics in action. Even in todays world with consumer protection laws there are instances of localized price hiking during a crisis. Even products no one really needs skyrocket if there is a hint of an upcoming scarcity. Remember a few years back when Hostess was getting sold that the Twinkie was getting discontinued. Boxes of Twinkies were being sold on E-bay for outrageous prices-and selling.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 08:11:00 PM
In our own civilized world, it is absurd to think that something as mundane as a sword could be worth more than its weight in gold. In a fantasy realm where a good sword is not so common and there is danger everywhere, and gold is rather common due to so much of it being injected into the economy by adventurers, it is easy to imagine a good sword being worth more than its weight in gold.
This would be true if a good sword was not so common, but in most milieus everyone and their dog carries a sword, up to and including the town militia.
That said, you aren't wrong that a fantasy world is just that- a fantasy world, and all money if fiat when you break it down to nuts and bolts. A world in which gold is the principal specie is not more fantastic than one in which a wizard can shoot fire from his fingertips and dragons can fly.
I like the silver standard because it actually gives silver and copper some use in the game world, rather than being left behind as 'too valueless to carry out.' The other thing I do is NOT use electrum as coinage, because to me, for the average joe in the game world, it would be too difficult to discern the gold content of the coin, thereby making it next to impossible to determine its actual value.
Quote from: jmarso on June 30, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 08:11:00 PM
In our own civilized world, it is absurd to think that something as mundane as a sword could be worth more than its weight in gold. In a fantasy realm where a good sword is not so common and there is danger everywhere, and gold is rather common due to so much of it being injected into the economy by adventurers, it is easy to imagine a good sword being worth more than its weight in gold.
This would be true if a good sword was not so common, but in most milieus everyone and their dog carries a sword, up to and including the town militia.
That said, you aren't wrong that a fantasy world is just that- a fantasy world, and all money if fiat when you break it down to nuts and bolts. A world in which gold is the principal specie is not more fantastic than one in which a wizard can shoot fire from his fingertips and dragons can fly.
I like the silver standard because it actually gives silver and copper some use in the game world, rather than being left behind as 'too valueless to carry out.' The other thing I do is NOT use electrum as coinage, because to me, for the average joe in the game world, it would be too difficult to discern the gold content of the coin, thereby making it next to impossible to determine its actual value.
Greetings!
Interesting. In historical Carthage, the Empire of Carthage actually minted electrum coins as part of its economy. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on June 30, 2023, 05:05:28 PM
Greetings!
Interesting. In historical Carthage, the Empire of Carthage actually minted electrum coins as part of its economy. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm going to have to research that a bit just for fun. Carthage was a big enough city-state that I presume they must have had a standard of weights and measures that the citizenry had some trust in.
Semper Fi!
Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 24, 2023, 10:55:28 AMencumbrance preventing hauling a lot of treasure out
I've been playing the survival game
The Long Dark recently. You can carry 30kg normally, or 35kg if you're "well-fed" (haven't starved in the last 3 days, takes work to keep up). This declines if you're fatigued. Clothing sufficient to stave off a blizzard is 10-15kg or so. So you've got 20-25kg at most to carry tools, firestarting gear, and so on. In practice that's another 10-12kg. So really you have 5-10kg of extra stuff you can carry.
You can actually carry up to 45/50kg in all, so 15kg over that normal 30/35kg limit... but you're slooooooow. And your character grunts as they're tramping through the snow. This is a huge test of your patience, and so you naturally start looking for things to dump. But maybe sometimes you really need that stuff, so you put up with it.
In a tabletop rpg, players are spared the personal experience of this sort of tedium, so you have to have stricter rules on it. Otherwise every player will declare that their character is some sort of uber-stoic spartan. "I will carry 200lbs for 100 miles on nothing but iron rations every day."
Quote from: VisionStormOR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns.
As I said, you can have whatever kind of game you like. I'm just saying that game rules are designed
as a whole, like a car engine. You can't take out part of the engine and then complain it doesn't work. You start fiddling around in there, at some point you either break the thing completely or you've made a new engine.
You want a different engine, that's fine. But the engine you need for a tractor is different to the one you need for a drag racer. Different game styles need different rule sets. That's why I've written rpgs, I wanted a system that did different things to any I'd seen, or emphasised this or that more.
Quote from: VisionStormAlso the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and -
The main one's the training rule. That's once a level. That shouldn't be happening every session, so I don't think it can reasonably be called "micromanaging," which implies something more constant like Limberg coming by your desk multiple times a day.
Quote from: ExploderwizardIn our own civilized world, it is absurd to think that something as mundane as a sword could be worth more than its weight in gold
My wedding ring has gold in it, and cost more than its weight in gold. Cost of materials + cost of labour + profit = final cost.
That said, I like a silver standard with more historically-analogous coin weights. I just like the atmosphere that gives in play. In movie terms, more like
Conan and less like
The Hobbit. Low fantasy rather than high.
Quote from: jmarsoin most milieus everyone and their dog carries a sword, up to and including the town militia.
And a silver standard can make this less so. Again, not objectively good, just my personal taste. Funnily enough, historically the
scabbard cost more than the sword!
Anyway, I like settings where the men-at-arms at least start as guys with gambeson, spear and shield. One rule I add to help this is "shield wall" - you get AC+1 for each person at your side, so +2 for the guys in the middle, +1 for the flank guys. Needs a "sergeant" in charge, someone with HD1 or more - including a PC or henchman, of course. Kobolds etc can't do it. In other words, I've made tactics more important than gear. That takes AD&D1e a tiny bit back towards its wargaming roots.
Quote from: jmarso on July 01, 2023, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: SHARK on June 30, 2023, 05:05:28 PM
Greetings!
Interesting. In historical Carthage, the Empire of Carthage actually minted electrum coins as part of its economy. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm going to have to research that a bit just for fun. Carthage was a big enough city-state that I presume they must have had a standard of weights and measures that the citizenry had some trust in.
Semper Fi!
Sunday, July 2, 2023
Greetings!
Hey there, Jmarso! SEMPER FI, INDEED!
Yeah, the Empire of Carthage built their empire that embraced most of North Africa, Iberia, parts of Gaul, as well as the Beleric Islands, the island of Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica. They had many cities, and advanced, sophisticate towns. The Carthaginians also used insurance policies and advanced banking systems and investments, especially for ships and shipborne trade and cargo. An investor in Alexandria, for example, could go and get reimbursed for their investments in cargo lost in a fleet off the Pillars of Hercules, or through piracy or warfare. The Carthaginians had the Silver Shekel, which was the standard currency, as well as Gold Staters, and an advanced coin-based economy. The Carthaginians minted their coins with a relief symbol of a Palm Tree on one side, and an Elephant, or the face of their great mother goddess, Tanit, depicted on the obverse side of the coin. Very nice, and very sophisticated. Over some time, they also had bronze coins, of lower denominations, and the Electrum coin which was an alloy of silver and gold, which served as an in-between value coin between the Silver Shekel and the Gold Stater.
The Carthaginians are an often historically neglected pillar of Western Civilization, right there during the action with Egypt, ancient Greece, and the Roman Empire. Before the celebrated Roman Empire, there was the gorgeous and stunning and advanced civilization of the Empire of Carthage. Carthage had paved roads, sophisticate cisterns, water reservoirs, advanced irrigation systems—as well as civic plumbing and sewer systems—long before Rome. When Rome was nothing more than some, mud-covered town of barbarians—the people of Carthage were using fine civic plumbing, drinking piped-in fresh water, and eating fruits brought to them from thousands of miles away. They were also living in gigantic, six-story high sophisticate stone and marble apartment buildings in the great and beautiful plazas of Carthage—and many other cities and towns of the Empire of Carthage. In recent decades, archaeologists have discovered a modest town in North Africa—not a huge, important town—but a modest town—which featured marble flooring inlays, individual, private bathrooms, sewer systems, water reservoirs, and more, for every individual house—not just for the wealthy elite—but for everyone. Carthage developed industrial mining on metal ores— a system not equaled until the 19th Century, A.D. The Carthaginian contributions to exploration, discovery, finance, government, engineering, are enormous— and much of what made Rome great—came from inspirations from Carthage.
Carthage also pioneered the IKEA-like system of pre-fabricated ships—allowing the Carthaginians to produce and assemble fleets of 300 warships every 45 days. Anyone else required at least 6 months or more to even come close to such an accomplishment—an also with much higher cost—as they had to pay expensive engineers and shipbuilders—whereas Carthage did not. Carthage could use skeleton teams of engineers, supervising normal labourers, thus saving immensely on the cost involved for every warship. The Carthaginians also developed an advanced system of manufacturing—coordinating specialized labour and craftsmen, on a mass scale—to provide immense supply of a whole range of specialized consumer goods, and storage and transporting these huge deliveries from where the factories and shops were organized, to transport such goods thousands of miles away, on reliable, constant schedules. Kitchen goods, furniture, urns, tools, clothing, shoes, boots, religious icons, incense, spices, and more—such as Garum—and huge wax-sealed amphora of salted fish—were produced in mass quantities, organized, and shipped half way around the world on a regular basis—and while also tailoring each such goods to the colours and styles desired by several different cultural and ethnic markets—again, all routinely accomplished by the Carthaginians before 400 B.C.
Egypt, Greece, and Rome were all great—but also remember Carthage. Remember that Carthage took much of what those civilizations had accomplished—and improved upon them. Furthermore, Carthage pioneered many innovations, technologies, systems, and techniques unequaled by any other civilization. Much of Rome's greatness, and subsequent systems developed and embraced through the Dark Ages, and the Middle Ages, were rooted within inspiration from Carthage.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 02, 2023, 12:24:59 AM
And a silver standard can make this less so. Again, not objectively good, just my personal taste. Funnily enough, historically the scabbard cost more than the sword!
And by the 15th century longbows cost more than most swords, while a quiver of arrows cost more than the bow. ;D
Swords were not uncommon because they were expensive; although they seem to have been fairly uncommon & expensive in dark ages northern europe. They were fairly uncommon because they're not a very good primary weapon. So they were used as side arms, and generally only the upper classes needed a side arm. The main advantage of swords is that you can wear them comfortably.
Quote from: S'mon on July 02, 2023, 03:01:11 AM
Swords were not uncommon because they were expensive; although they seem to have been fairly uncommon & expensive in dark ages northern europe. They were fairly uncommon because they're not a very good primary weapon. So they were used as side arms, and generally only the upper classes needed a side arm. The main advantage of swords is that you can wear them comfortably.
It must be time to crack out good old Lindy Beige.
It's a long time since there were enough people running around with either for this to be properly-established either way, I think. All I'm certain of is that while Lindy Beige is interesting to watch on YouTube, he'd be a total pain in the arse at the game table.
I love me some Lindy and some Matt Easton. ;D