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My frustration - Between PF2e and 5e, I stick with 5e

Started by kaliburnuz, September 20, 2023, 05:54:30 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

kaliburnuz

I really wanted to love PF2e.

I bought many books, read through all, DMed and played.
I originally left 5e due to OGL scandal + the woke community and I jumped to PF2e and it's intrinsically Golarion, mostly due to the dark subjects covered in the 1e and the quality of the crpgs released.

But man I was wrong

The level of wokeness in the Pathfinder 2e material and their community is soooo over the top that 5e and wotc don't come even closer.
The way they "cleared" their setting, by removing slavery and a bunch of """problematic""" suff due to an open letter from a SJW, it just baffles me.

I don't usually have a problem with gay character, I don't really care, as long as they make sense in the environment and setting where they are. But Paizo forces this bar so much that becomes almost a joke: In Knights of the Lastwall for example you have paladins with the pride flag on their Armor in the midst of a undead apocalypse. Lesbians and gays everywhere reaffirming what they are and their pronouns in a dire situation where everyone should think about how to live another day and what to eat, not about an useless thing as your sexual badge.

The new book, firelands, when introducing NPCs they write in brackets how they identify and their pronouns. Like who gives a fuck. They are pirates that originally fought for the abolition of slavery (and as they retcon they lost their entire purpose, so now their goal is to help people who were slaves.....but isn't this for their government or whatever to do?)

Clerics can even channel queer stuff and don't get me started on their community. They talk much more about being queer and queer representation than anything else, and of course due to this Paizo will force this even more. It's just a goddamn queer game with no evil at all in the setting. It's ridiculous. Their community is pathetic and if you have any idea different from them you are doomed and probably kicked from any server.

Apart from that, there are sooooo many rules, so many feats, skills classes, races and etc etc etc etc. That becomes really hard for both DMs and players to keep track of everything as levels go up.

The way I like to play my games is to have a mainstream one over the top with power and a more OSR one. My to go for OSR would be always DCC, which is the king.
I wish my mainstream one would be PF2e, but screw them and their queer characters.

5e is more simple, I got my material in DND Beyond and to be honest I have a lot of fun with my friends when playing and at least (they are woke AF) they are not as woke queer power as Paizo.

Anyway sold all my paizo books and never buying again.

Glad at least in this community I can open up about my opinions.

See ya

BadApple

I feel you.  I won't do any modern Paizo or WOTC product.  I would recommend you look outside of those two systems.  Here's a few things to look at.

OSE is an excellent drop-in replacement for either of those while making it very easy to adapt any material you currently own.  A lot of modern players think OSR games are harder or more complex to run compared to 5e but that isn't the case; it's easier.  I'd also recommend you look at ICRPG for some house rules to use with OSE.  (ICRPG is fully playable as a stand alone but it has a very different feel.)  If you're hesitant, you can download the SRD for free to read the rules before committing.  There are also plenty of youtube vids that cover it.

Lion and Dragon is very excellent as well.  It is, by it's nature, somewhat different than a typical D&D game but it's still feels and plays like D&D.  It is an OSR game so it's compatible with any other OSR adventures or supplements as well as being easy to convert 5e material to.

Lately, I've been using Sword of Cepheus to run fantasy.  My table has really been enjoying it.  It's based on Traveller so it's not compatible at all with D&D derived materials so any conversion takes effort on the part of the GM.  That said, it's a skills list game rather than a level based game.  PC progression is more linear without the massive power jumps seen in 5e so threats at the start of the game remain threat for longer. 

I always recommend you do some research before you jump into any new system.  It sucks to dump a bunch of money on something that you find unsatisfying. 
>Blade Runner RPG
Terrible idea, overwhelming majority of ttrpg players can't pass Voight-Kampff test.
    - Anonymous

GhostNinja

I second OSE.   I am running it and I love it.   The more I run 5e the more I hate it.   

I don't buy any WOTC products anymore since they clearly hate me and other gamers like me.

I would suggest looking at the free Old School Essentials basic rules.  They are free and can be found here:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/272802/OldSchool-Essentials-Basic-Rules
Ghostninja

Svenhelgrim

Thirded for OSE.  I introduced some friends at work to rpg's and I used OSE.  They loved it!  It is a simple and easy system, and you can houserule it if you feel the need (I use individual initiative). 

My main gaming group is firmly entrenched in 5e.  They are addicted to the power and survivability.  So I have to hammer them pretty hard to challenge them. 

I have also been looking at Castles & Crusades.  I bought the books years ago and I love the art.  The system seems like a stripped down 3e with no feats, and a skill system tacked on. 


rytrasmi

Yeah fuck those guys. Paladins with pride flags is insane.

Check out Hyperborea. It's AD&D style OSR with zero wokeness.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

Crusader X

#5
No WotC and Paizo for me.

Castles & Crusades is good as a 5e/Pathfinder alternative.  OSE is good for even older school play.

Greg Gillespie is very much not woke.  Back his new Dragonslayer Kickstarter here!.  The game is a mix between B/X and 1st Edition D&D, so it too is old school.

Shadowdark is also not woke, and is another good 5e alternative.  The game's creator, Kelsey, is gay, but there is nothing woke in the Shadowdark rules, and I've never seen her get political or push any type of agenda online.  I have no problem supporting her.

Effete


BadApple

Actually, we've all been offering up stand-ins for D&D 5e.  Maybe a solid break from it for a while is what you need.  Let me suggest a couple of my favorites.

Traveller - A scifi game about going from planet to planet picking up odd jobs and trying not to space yourself.  The Cepheus Engine SRD (a fully working clone) is free online here: https://www.orffenspace.com/cepheus-srd/index.html

Starwars D6 - Considered by many to be one of the best RPGs of all time.  It was written before the prequels and the source books are the basis of the extended universe.  You can get it all here: http://www.d6holocron.com/

Cyberpunk 2020 - The original dark future role playing game and still the best in my opinion.  It's tight and complex while still flowing very well.  Definitely will get your adrenaline going in combat.  The Interlock Unlimited version is excellent and can be gotten here: http://datafortress2020.com/InterlockUnlimited.html
>Blade Runner RPG
Terrible idea, overwhelming majority of ttrpg players can't pass Voight-Kampff test.
    - Anonymous

ForgottenF

Pathfinder 2 is one in a very short list of games I couldn't even make myself read. Some combination of the terrible layout, oversaturated art design and convoluted rules causes my eyes to slide right off of the page.

If you are looking for an alternative that still counts as mainstream, quite a few people are still playing Pathfinder 1, which was largely spared Paizo dropping a woke bomb on their whole setting, by virtue of already being dead.

The next choice would probably be Savage Worlds. It requires a significant adjustment for players used to D&d, but it's a good system and still being supported
Playing: Mongoose Traveller 2e
Running: Dolmenwood
Planning: Warlock!, Savage Worlds (Lankhmar and Flash Gordon), Kogarashi

Scooter

Quote from: kaliburnuz on September 20, 2023, 05:54:30 AM
I really wanted to love PF2e.

I bought many books, read through all, DMed and played.
I originally left 5e due to OGL scandal + the woke community and I jumped to PF2e and it's intrinsically Golarion, mostly due to the dark subjects covered in the 1e and the quality of the crpgs released.



Both systems suck and both companies are too libtard infested to give money to.
There is no saving throw vs. stupidity

Jam The MF

Quote from: kaliburnuz on September 20, 2023, 05:54:30 AM
I really wanted to love PF2e.

I bought many books, read through all, DMed and played.
I originally left 5e due to OGL scandal + the woke community and I jumped to PF2e and it's intrinsically Golarion, mostly due to the dark subjects covered in the 1e and the quality of the crpgs released.

But man I was wrong

The level of wokeness in the Pathfinder 2e material and their community is soooo over the top that 5e and wotc don't come even closer.
The way they "cleared" their setting, by removing slavery and a bunch of """problematic""" suff due to an open letter from a SJW, it just baffles me.

I don't usually have a problem with gay character, I don't really care, as long as they make sense in the environment and setting where they are. But Paizo forces this bar so much that becomes almost a joke: In Knights of the Lastwall for example you have paladins with the pride flag on their Armor in the midst of a undead apocalypse. Lesbians and gays everywhere reaffirming what they are and their pronouns in a dire situation where everyone should think about how to live another day and what to eat, not about an useless thing as your sexual badge.

The new book, firelands, when introducing NPCs they write in brackets how they identify and their pronouns. Like who gives a fuck. They are pirates that originally fought for the abolition of slavery (and as they retcon they lost their entire purpose, so now their goal is to help people who were slaves.....but isn't this for their government or whatever to do?)

Clerics can even channel queer stuff and don't get me started on their community. They talk much more about being queer and queer representation than anything else, and of course due to this Paizo will force this even more. It's just a goddamn queer game with no evil at all in the setting. It's ridiculous. Their community is pathetic and if you have any idea different from them you are doomed and probably kicked from any server.

Apart from that, there are sooooo many rules, so many feats, skills classes, races and etc etc etc etc. That becomes really hard for both DMs and players to keep track of everything as levels go up.

The way I like to play my games is to have a mainstream one over the top with power and a more OSR one. My to go for OSR would be always DCC, which is the king.
I wish my mainstream one would be PF2e, but screw them and their queer characters.

5e is more simple, I got my material in DND Beyond and to be honest I have a lot of fun with my friends when playing and at least (they are woke AF) they are not as woke queer power as Paizo.

Anyway sold all my paizo books and never buying again.

Glad at least in this community I can open up about my opinions.

See ya


Yes.  You CAN open up here.  And that, is wonderful.  If a person was minded to play Pathfinder; there are many volumes of content available on the used market, for 1E.  I have a bunch of books for 1E, and they don't have that nonsense in them.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Scooter

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 20, 2023, 06:49:31 PM

The next choice would probably be Savage Worlds. It requires a significant adjustment for players used to D&d, but it's a good system and still being supported

Naw. just run C&C.  No adjustment needed for people who have been playing D&D.  Plus all the players get free PHB PDFs.
There is no saving throw vs. stupidity

tenbones

What I hear: "I care less about D&D as a fantasy genre itself, but I care more about the mechanics which is what I'm actually playing."


Scooter

Quote from: tenbones on September 22, 2023, 10:14:36 AM
What I hear: "I care less about D&D as a fantasy genre itself, but I care more about the mechanics which is what I'm actually playing."

No, you are misinterpreting it.  Or delusional.  As the GENRE is TTFRPG  NOT TT tactical combat game.  Get it now?
There is no saving throw vs. stupidity

KindaMeh

Quote from: Scooter on September 22, 2023, 11:00:49 AM
Quote from: tenbones on September 22, 2023, 10:14:36 AM
What I hear: "I care less about D&D as a fantasy genre itself, but I care more about the mechanics which is what I'm actually playing."

No, you are misinterpreting it.  Or delusional.  As the GENRE is TTFRPG  NOT TT tactical combat game.  Get it now?

I don't quite get what you're saying here, Scooter. I do agree that as of 4e or maybe even 3e the latter (board-game-esque tactical combat gaming) has been the dominant part of commercialized D&D, and arguably to its detriment.

But also I don't get how this connects to what tenbones said. I think (?) he's talking about how the original poster seems to want mechanics over left wing setting ideology when making a choice with respect to game?

Or are you advocating C&C as simply the proper (?)  mechanical choice due to some of the tactical combat gaming lean of 5e and the like? As well as how inculcated with values 5e has become?