Quote from: Zelen on February 26, 2023, 04:58:36 PM
Rainbow Sun campaign setting

This made me chuckle

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 11:10:17 AM

Some didn't learn the lesson. That is the sad advantage of subverting the 800 pound gorilla of gaming to your Marxist sociopolitical whims.

I bought 5e because I wanted to play an official version of D&D.

Played 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.

Bought 4e (IE D&D the MMORPG) which wasnt what I was looking for.

I thought 5e was worth a try,  It's not great but its not horrible.

WotC views its customers as a captive audience that they can milk for profit because they own the D&D IP. Looking at your buying history that you posted, they were right.

Now that is a horrible thing for me to say, but it fits with what you posted and hundreds of thousands of TTRPG players believe. Since 5E is considered official D&D (the 800 Pound Gorilla of Gaming) having it be owned and subverted by social Marxist assholes to push an agenda is a very powerful use of that brand recognition.

I called it quits with 4E because it was demonstrated to me that WotC wanted my money and not necessarily my patronage as a customer. Seeing how they used the Coordinated Play program members as brownshirts to ensure that D&D was the only game to play at most FLGS told me that this newer breed of Official D&D didn't want me as a target demographic. That doesn't make me better or more aware, it just means that I am less tolerant of corporate driven bullshit than most others.

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 28, 2023, 06:43:16 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.

I'm not GhostNinja but had a similar experience - gave up 3.5 because it was so overcomplicated. And I went to play GURPS!

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 28, 2023, 08:22:49 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 28, 2023, 06:43:16 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.

I'm not GhostNinja but had a similar experience - gave up 3.5 because it was so overcomplicated. And I went to play GURPS!

If you didn't sell your books and quit gaming, you didn't have a similar experience.

NONONONONO!! You can't abandon WoTC! They aren't done disappointing you yet! Plus certainly you still have money they can burn!

Stop being problematic, slave!

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?

"GM May I"

All you needed to say.

A little selective in your quoting. You missed the important caveat... "with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities."

If you've never had some fat fuck of a DM tell you that your fighter can't possibly do something entirely reasonable (ex. jump over a 10' gap with a running start) because it's not something they could do (implication being they believe they are the pinnacle of physical ability) then you're either extremely lucky or a liar (I can't even claim it as a unique experience).

Having actual game mechanics to cover such things without needing to get a delusional fat slob let you perform the sort actions a person capable of benching 300+ pounds and trained in acrobatics and athletics and the use of all types of weapons and armor would be expected to be able to do was immensely useful to avoiding conflicts at the table.

If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.

A bad GM can fuck up every game from Prince Valiant to Phoenix Command, designing to idiot-proof a game is futile.  Seriously, look back at what you wrote - It's dripping with bitter venom from bad GM experiences.  Sorry, those experiences are not universal.  If I have a session with a GM I don't like or disagree with, I don't return.

I've seen High School athletes do an 8ft Standing Long Jump, so yeah a fighter with good stats not being able to do a 10ft Running Long Jump is asinine.  That's got nothing to do with where a GM sits on Rulings vs. Rules and where systems move that slider.

You could just as easily have a GM go crazy with RAW interpretations that obviously aren't RAI.  Or you could have a system where what was actually happening in the setting didn't really matter as long as the rules were followed (like the infamous tripping of oozes in 4e).

But, as much as I have written about 4e on this board, I was pointing to not trusting WotC after what they pulled with the GSL and the run up to 4e.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 28, 2023, 06:43:16 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.

'

One Hundred percent.  I was a player but we had to stop and check the rulebook because of confusion on the rules.   3.5 is way over complicated.  I believe it was written by people who wanted to turn D&D into a wargame instead of an RPG

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 01, 2023, 10:03:50 AM
3.5 is way over complicated.  I believe it was written by people who wanted to turn D&D into a wargame instead of an RPG

I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.

"Too complex" doesn't mean "too complex to understand or play."  It's shorthand for "The complexity is not well chosen."

3E went from something I enjoyed well enough to something that I didn't over time.  To be fair, though, I don't think it's over complicated.  However, it is a great example, to me, of what people mean when they talk about "complexity budgets" in games.  As in, you only get so much complexity.  Where and how you use it matters.  Naturally, I think that part of the problem with 3E is that the designers didn't budget their complexity.  They just put in whatever made sense to them.  Pulling back on a little complexity here or there, because some hardnose complexity auditor made them justify each inclusion, would have probably meant the game kept almost its entire feature set, with notably less complexity.

And that's pretty well true of 3E as a whole.  Designed somewhat well, developed reasonably well, edited for typos fair, edited for content, poor.  Which is why 3.5 would have been a lot better received if they had simple backed away from some of the complexity that wasn't adding enough bang for its cost, and then done a better game editing job on the final product.  Would have been backwards compatible, too.  The fact that 3.5 did remove some "not worth it" complexity got overrun by all the nit picky complexity introduced for no good reason.  Of course, game editing is hard work, and they wouldn't have been able to sell a new set of books while pretending that they didn't put out a new version. 

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 06:31:04 PM

WotC views its customers as a captive audience that they can milk for profit because they own the D&D IP. Looking at your buying history that you posted, they were right.

I guess I cannot argue this fact.  You are right.

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 06:31:04 PMNow that is a horrible thing for me to say, but it fits with what you posted and hundreds of thousands of TTRPG players believe. Since 5E is considered official D&D (the 800 Pound Gorilla of Gaming) having it be owned and subverted by social Marxist assholes to push an agenda is a very powerful use of that brand recognition.

Yes.  I currently have the core set and tashas and xanathars and that is it for the WOTC books.  Have a couple third party books and have no interest in buying anything else  Now that I know about the OSR I am looking at a few of those systems to switch to and get fully away from "Official D&D"[/quote]

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 06:31:04 PMI called it quits with 4E because it was demonstrated to me that WotC wanted my money and not necessarily my patronage as a customer. Seeing how they used the Coordinated Play program members as brownshirts to ensure that D&D was the only game to play at most FLGS told me that this newer breed of Official D&D didn't want me as a target demographic. That doesn't make me better or more aware, it just means that I am less tolerant of corporate driven bullshit than most others.

I 100% agree with this.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 10:13:21 AM

I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.

It felt to me like they were trying to turn it into a wargame instead of it being a role playing game.

Quote from: crkrueger on March 01, 2023, 08:42:39 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?

"GM May I"

All you needed to say.

A little selective in your quoting. You missed the important caveat... "with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities."

If you've never had some fat fuck of a DM tell you that your fighter can't possibly do something entirely reasonable (ex. jump over a 10' gap with a running start) because it's not something they could do (implication being they believe they are the pinnacle of physical ability) then you're either extremely lucky or a liar (I can't even claim it as a unique experience).

Having actual game mechanics to cover such things without needing to get a delusional fat slob let you perform the sort actions a person capable of benching 300+ pounds and trained in acrobatics and athletics and the use of all types of weapons and armor would be expected to be able to do was immensely useful to avoiding conflicts at the table.

If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.

A bad GM can fuck up every game from Prince Valiant to Phoenix Command, designing to idiot-proof a game is futile.  Seriously, look back at what you wrote - It's dripping with bitter venom from bad GM experiences.  Sorry, those experiences are not universal.  If I have a session with a GM I don't like or disagree with, I don't return.

I've seen High School athletes do an 8ft Standing Long Jump, so yeah a fighter with good stats not being able to do a 10ft Running Long Jump is asinine.  That's got nothing to do with where a GM sits on Rulings vs. Rules and where systems move that slider.

You could just as easily have a GM go crazy with RAW interpretations that obviously aren't RAI.  Or you could have a system where what was actually happening in the setting didn't really matter as long as the rules were followed (like the infamous tripping of oozes in 4e).

But, as much as I have written about 4e on this board, I was pointing to not trusting WotC after what they pulled with the GSL and the run up to 4e.

It all depends on how much gear/weight the fighter has on when they attempt the jump of 10 feet.

If they are like a high school student in shorts, then 10 feet should be no problem.

If they are wearing plate armor and carrying 20 pounds of gear, then it's doubtful that they will be able to jump the 10 feet.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 01, 2023, 11:30:05 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 10:13:21 AM

I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.

It felt to me like they were trying to turn it into a wargame instead of it being a role playing game.

Yeah, I think there were definitely elements of that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 11:34:00 AM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 01, 2023, 11:30:05 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 10:13:21 AM

I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.

It felt to me like they were trying to turn it into a wargame instead of it being a role playing game.

Yeah, I think there were definitely elements of that.

I did not think the fiddly stuff was worth it.  I have played wargames and pretend to be literate...so comprehension was not a problem.  Slowing things down to recall little conditional bonuses from feats and prestige classes seemed anticlimactic.

It was ok but not worth it to dm.