Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?

Some of us actually preferred 4E to the prior versions of D&D. It was the first time I was ever able to use D&D to play a fantasy wizard that in any way resembled the kinds that actually appear in fiction that wasn't itself derived from D&D and allowed for warriors to pull off cool stunts by default instead of needing to play the "GM May I" game with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities.

It also made entirely non-magic settings with no magic gear something you could just do without needing to houserule anything and let the trope of the swashbuckler-type hero in light/no armor be a thing that wasn't overly penalized by the default mechanics.

Basically it was D&D for all the people who thought D&D was generic fantasy and not a very specific subgenre of limited-shot casters and warriors who could only compete by being decked out like Christmas trees in magic items.

Turns out I never actually got over my initial negative impressions of AD&D (I say again, thank God for Palladium). I just came back to the least D&D version of D&D ever and enjoyed that immensely.

If you really like Dark Sun just run the old version.   Screw 5E too. :-P

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AMSome of us actually preferred 4E to the prior versions of D&D.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?

"GM May I"

All you needed to say.

Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM

In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.

Maybe they can control a Hasbro backed event but they have no control how I use their product outside of that.   Wizards can try to come and stop how I run a game.  I dare them.   they wont like the results.

Quote from: rusty shackleford on February 27, 2023, 04:22:38 AM
Wouldn't want anyone to feel unsafe with slavery in our game that heavily features mass murder of intelligent creatures 

Yep.   Slavery wrong. Killing people because you feel they are bad? No problem

Quote from: Omega on February 27, 2023, 12:43:49 PM

Side topic. I have Curse of Strahd and the woke insertions are mostly nothings. One is so nothing Im not even sure what the fuck the point was. Overall it is surprisingly not a bad presentation.

Van Richten's though. THAT is trash. Some good ideas in there completely lost to the butchering of so many Domains of Dread.

Just a question: Is it possible to work around the woke crap or are they imbedded in a way that you cant ignore them?

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?

"GM May I"

All you needed to say.

A little selective in your quoting. You missed the important caveat... "with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities."

If you've never had some fat fuck of a DM tell you that your fighter can't possibly do something entirely reasonable (ex. jump over a 10' gap with a running start) because it's not something they could do (implication being they believe they are the pinnacle of physical ability) then you're either extremely lucky or a liar (I can't even claim it as a unique experience).

Having actual game mechanics to cover such things without needing to get a delusional fat slob let you perform the sort actions a person capable of benching 300+ pounds and trained in acrobatics and athletics and the use of all types of weapons and armor would be expected to be able to do was immensely useful to avoiding conflicts at the table.

If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?

Some didn't learn the lesson. That is the sad advantage of subverting the 800 pound gorilla of gaming to your Marxist sociopolitical whims.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM
If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.

But who do you think writes RPG rules? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? 

Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?

People bought WotC stuff? 

  You can't have bad guys! You can only have sad guys, misunderstood guys, and "all of you made me do it, you vicious oppressor!" guys.

Dark Sun is too depressing and not reworkable to 'subvert expectations' for the above message. Because reforming evil is hard.

Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2023, 11:59:26 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM
If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.

But who do you think writes RPG rules? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? 

People who are at least self-aware enough to realize that they are probably nowhere near perfect physical specimens... hopefully.

One of the first places I started for my rules was various world records for where to put the upper limits human attributes. 30-35' per second for a dash. 7.5' per second speed swimming. 30' for a world record running long jump and about 7' for a non-flop running high jump. Lifting 600 pounds for maximum human potential (not-counting magic).

Then you just decide if you want those as the actual limits or whether you want Batman/Cinematic limits where they are more your starting limits and PCs can actually reach the mild superhuman levels you see with Batman and similar combatants.

Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 11:10:17 AM

Some didn't learn the lesson. That is the sad advantage of subverting the 800 pound gorilla of gaming to your Marxist sociopolitical whims.

I bought 5e because I wanted to play an official version of D&D.

Played 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.

Bought 4e (IE D&D the MMORPG) which wasnt what I was looking for.

I thought 5e was worth a try,  It's not great but its not horrible.