Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 26, 2023, 12:36:43 PM
Pundit's World of the Last Sun seems ripe to use and adapt to fill that exact niche (if it needs any changes at all), but it's OSR so you might have to do some conversion.

The chapter on "The Shithole" in World of the Last Sun is specifically a take on the "Dark Sun" type of fantasy post-apocalypse scarcity everything-is-super-tough setting.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on February 26, 2023, 06:28:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 26, 2023, 04:41:03 PM
Don't you worry, someone that seems to have been in charge of the Radiant Citadel has expressed interest in totally ruining re-imagining Dark Sun for a modern audience.

That's not gonna suck giant monkey balls or anything.

Yeah, I unfortunately heard that too. But I guess what I'm saying is I'm ignoring anything after 2014. It's not "official" to me, even though WotC owns the IP. I choose to ignore anything 5e. A good game underneath, but WotC has ruined it.

I bet we can remain uninterested far longer than Hasbro can remain solvent.

Quote from: Dapig on February 26, 2023, 12:49:58 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 12:35:27 PM
Greetings!

Indeed, Dapig, I agree with you entirely. I've always been a righteous, Conservative tyrant-barbarian. I've appreciated the objectively, gamist and mechanical changes or options as being fine. (Like changes in AC, adding Feats and gewgaws). All of the social and ideologically-driven crying and diarrhea I have always rejected and been resistant against, precisely because I am *Conservative* and always have viewed such as jumping off of a cliff, on that damned slippery slide you talk about. Damn right, my friend. TO THE BOTTOM we are at!

Way to just sweep in like a B-29 raid, dropping awesome bombs of TRUTH, Dapig. Stay STRONG, and BE FIERCE, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK, Thanks much. 

I came here a good while back just done with other forums (fora?  Hell I don't know).  And over time, I recreated accounts and went back in the mix thinking there needs to be a rational voice out there and hey, 5e discussion is welcome.

And here we are now after playing nice.  One domino keeps hitting another.  What I am saying is that thinking it's coming is one thing.  Watching in real time?  Tragic. 

Just give them Sudetenland.  It will stop.

Greetings!

Tragic, indeed, my friend! I know, it feels so weird watching everything be destroyed, right before our eyes. And to the Woke, who love it all, they think it's all great! "What's your problem, bro?" It feels like we are living in a Clown world that has gone insane, and has chosen to drive the entre culture into self-destruction and utter ruin.

"Just give them Sudetenland. It will stop." Yeah, I hear you. It feels so much like that.

As a student of History, I can testify that when cultures go insane like this, and become so corrupt and stupid like we have become--the ending is never pleasant. It never ends well, when you cross a "Rubicon" of corruption and stupidity. You either totally burn out and just rot into nothing; a Tyrant arises and sweeps all the corruption away, but the cost is the culture is entirely transformed into something different; or foreign invaders march in and rape and conquer. One, Two, or Three. There is no being saved, there is no restoration, or reconciliation. Ruin, Tyranny, or slavery and conquest. Any of the three result in the original culture being swept away and destroyed. That's just about where we are at, culturally. That cliff jump is a *long* way down. There is no recovering from that.

However, I would say also that realistically, as a slim ray of hope, there could be some kind of arrangement where a fw "islands" of sanity manage to exist, and carry on some decent form of of our formerly great culture. Having said that, though, even if even that were to somehow occur, the culture is still radically transformed into something else.

For our gaming hobby, maintain your own groups, build strong relationships with like-mind people, and dig in. Hold firm, and fight back against the morons at every opportunity. Push back, loudly, everywhere. Take no prisoners.

GIVE THEM NOTHING!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 07:31:18 PM
...or foreign invaders march in and rape and conquer...

Like Chesty Puller said, "Our country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any America — because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race."

As you say, it seems like we're on the brink of one of these eventualities. After the Stalinist political purges of our nation's military in the wake of the Jan 6 "insurrection" we also no longer meet recruiting goals. The "I hate America" club of nations are fully aware of all of this.

Quote from: Dapig on February 26, 2023, 12:07:36 PM
I have played a long time—-mostly 1e and later 5e.

Recently WOTC took another "stand" and explained why Dark Sun is not being remade.  In a recent thread on another site, it was asserted that Dark Sun was not original nor in demand anyway.  (The only sources I have seen suggest otherwise—-which is congruent with my own assessment).

But the crux is this: evil wizards take slaves.  You can fight against it, but they have the upper hand.  So the game is triggering? Or will be misused?

The further assertions by some online talking heads is that this is a special kind of evil and we should not make light of it.  We "sanitize" it and should explore it more meaningfully if at all.  The question of a morning star to the head and other action/adventure staples are exempt for now. 

Fuck 'em. I got a used (and in great condition) original boxed Dark Sun at my FLGS, and bought the POD book from drivethrurpg for good measure.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e

Yeah, WOTC gets a cut, but if they must, they'll get a cut from the edition I prefer. Slavery included as a part of the setting.

Quote from: Zelen on February 26, 2023, 04:36:15 PM
The goal of these people is to turn the hobby into "Grey goo" -- Everything is equal, everything is exactly like everything else, no distinctions or qualities, a bland undifferentiated slime. But it's very inclusive.

They aren't satisfied with just making everything bland in every day life; they must also force people to not even pretend that things are different at a gaming table.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 26, 2023, 09:49:51 PM

Quote from: Zelen on February 26, 2023, 04:36:15 PM
The goal of these people is to turn the hobby into "Grey goo" -- Everything is equal, everything is exactly like everything else, no distinctions or qualities, a bland undifferentiated slime. But it's very inclusive.

They aren't satisfied with just making everything bland in every day life; they must also force people to not even pretend that things are different at a gaming table.

They just want everyone to feel safe and included at a gaming table, whether you're a chest feeder, have native wisdom, are an Orc, sport a feminine penis, or are a FUCKING CIS HET WHITE MALE RAPIST!

It's called empathy.



Dark Sun always seemed like an interesting setting, even back when all I knew was art and blurbs from adverts. Since then I've learned some lore, and I'm working my way through the novels. My only beef with the novels is they're all about Avengers-level threats, and I'd like more grounded tales set on Athas.

Slippery slope is often misused, as if to mean it's something that will never happen. It's only the case when the two points being compared have nothing to do with each other. But when they share the same logical premises, it's not a slippery slope, it's just a logical inevitability.

(When I'm here, for once, why not give my two cents...)

I don't think this is necessarily a political move - but something more worrisome:

For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens. It's reasonable to assume that's going to be their long-term strategy, especially if they continue to have difficulties with their more mature audience. Products like that, ugh-not-gonna-Google-that, "Quest for the Sparkling Tower", or whatever that was called, are not interesting to the Powers That Be because they can be marketed to super-"woke" hipsters on Twitch, and there are no misunderstandings about whether they are "good" in comparison to stuff from other, "designer-managed" companies. --- But they are marketable to kids because they are going to be regarded as conventionally "insurable" and "safe".

In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.

Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:

QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.

That's not acceptable. The suggestion alone is not acceptable. ...And yet, this is where things seem to be going: "Insurable" content, paired with Orwellian terms of use. I'm pretty sure the market is going to regulate that, over time - in that other companies are going to put out material with more humane terms of use, and eventually win the day - but the old D&D brands will give some heartbreak on the way to that. Think about it - the new D&D movie could have been everything; the Powers That Be chose to make it an action comedy aimed at people who're younger than the intended audience of the old Transformers movies. We don't get Bruenor and Drizz't or the Strahd movie that would make oh so much sense; we get "Chris Evans and his Merry Men". Could be that this is somewhat of an error in the search of the smallest common denominator; or, could be that this is strategy.

Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM


For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens.

...

In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.

Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:

QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.

That's not acceptable. The suggestion alone is not acceptable. ...And yet, this is where things seem to be going: "Insurable" content, paired with Orwellian terms of use. I'm pretty sure the market is going to regulate that, over time - in that other companies are going to put out material with more humane terms of use, and eventually win the day - but the old D&D brands will give some heartbreak on the way to that. Think about it - the new D&D movie could have been everything; the Powers That Be chose to make it an action comedy aimed at people who're younger than the intended audience of the old Transformers movies. We don't get Bruenor and Drizz't or the Strahd movie that would make oh so much sense; we get "Chris Evans and his Merry Men". Could be that this is somewhat of an error in the search of the smallest common denominator; or, could be that this is strategy.

At least in the USA, it is very hard, bordering on impossible for a teen or pre-teen to enter a legally binding contract (assuming they haven't done the legal paperwork for emancipation and some other uncommon edge cases). WOTC's law department can't be so stupid as to try and do that with a child's work, right? They'd get sued by some IP law firm on contingency looking to clean their clock (plus bad PR).

Now if I create a module (or maybe help my kid publish their work), then yeah, WOTC might be able to make it stick. If my kid does it solo using the family printer (because I don't pay much attention to their hobbies), nope.

Wouldn't want anyone to feel unsafe with slavery in our game that heavily features mass murder of intelligent creatures 

Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:

QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.

OGL 1.1 has been binned, though. Obviously they WANT to own everything, but they have given up trying to do so. The 5e SRD is now Creative Commons.

Frankly I think WoTC are more interested in corrupting ('grooming') your teenage daughter, than in owning her IP. But they'd settle for monetising her.

As if the used market needed any more excuses in a bidding war.  Oh well, I guess the kids are really good at the piracies, what with how they were raised to spread their manga around. Most of them will not be affected; most likely more unread megabytes on their phones in these times. 

Quote from: Howard on February 27, 2023, 03:35:49 AM

Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM


For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens.

...

In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.

Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:

QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.

That's not acceptable. The suggestion alone is not acceptable. ...And yet, this is where things seem to be going: "Insurable" content, paired with Orwellian terms of use. I'm pretty sure the market is going to regulate that, over time - in that other companies are going to put out material with more humane terms of use, and eventually win the day - but the old D&D brands will give some heartbreak on the way to that. Think about it - the new D&D movie could have been everything; the Powers That Be chose to make it an action comedy aimed at people who're younger than the intended audience of the old Transformers movies. We don't get Bruenor and Drizz't or the Strahd movie that would make oh so much sense; we get "Chris Evans and his Merry Men". Could be that this is somewhat of an error in the search of the smallest common denominator; or, could be that this is strategy.

At least in the USA, it is very hard, bordering on impossible for a teen or pre-teen to enter a legally binding contract (assuming they haven't done the legal paperwork for emancipation and some other uncommon edge cases). WOTC's law department can't be so stupid as to try and do that with a child's work, right? They'd get sued by some IP law firm on contingency looking to clean their clock (plus bad PR).

Now if I create a module (or maybe help my kid publish their work), then yeah, WOTC might be able to make it stick. If my kid does it solo using the family printer (because I don't pay much attention to their hobbies), nope.

I hope you're right, of course. Now, the bad thing, to me, is less what the legal consequences might specifically turn out to be, but the overall impression this gives: Like, they've already done the thing - market stuff to kids, try to sneak in some legal deviltry through the back door. That's pretty unethical, and yet they had no problem doing it.

I haven't been much of a regular client of WotC since the end of 3e. Seeing stuff like this, I'm not inclined to be one, again.

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 06:05:09 AM

Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:

QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.

OGL 1.1 has been binned, though. Obviously they WANT to own everything, but they have given up trying to do so. The 5e SRD is now Creative Commons.

Frankly I think WoTC are more interested in corrupting ('grooming') your teenage daughter, than in owning her IP. But they'd settle for monetising her.

Sorry, didn't see your reply - I'm not sure if we agree about the "corrupting", but, yeah, we very much agree about the "monetizing". FFS, this is bothering me to a degree that I didn't think it would. As you mention, the problem is not that WotC were not successful - the problem is that they've made it clear what their intentions are.

As a client, why would I trust them ever again? Like, it's not, whatever, like the kids couldn't play RuneQuest, and be rid of those dystopian nightmares.