I have played a long time—-mostly 1e and later 5e.
Recently WOTC took another "stand" and explained why Dark Sun is not being remade. In a recent thread on another site, it was asserted that Dark Sun was not original nor in demand anyway. (The only sources I have seen suggest otherwise—-which is congruent with my own assessment).
But the crux is this: evil wizards take slaves. You can fight against it, but they have the upper hand. So the game is triggering? Or will be misused?
The further assertions by some online talking heads is that this is a special kind of evil and we should not make light of it. We "sanitize" it and should explore it more meaningfully if at all. The question of a morning star to the head and other action/adventure staples are exempt for now.
Some are called alarmists when we suggest such avoidances and restrictions are a slippery slope to blandness. It is amazing to watch this shit in real time.
Online discussions about racial ASIs usually were populated by folks who said wtf? Vs . Think if the orc babies! They are afterall standings for minorities in our world! Then the apologists then chime in "well, it's not a good mechanic anyway...we can live without it."
Charms and magic that control others is out. Too reminiscent of sex without consent I guess. "Well it's no fun being out of the game for rounds anyway. I guess no big loss."
Humanoid monsters cannot have alignment tendencies. Too much biological essentialism.
So much taken out of context. (FYI: female drow are large and shiny black like...wait for it...female black widow spiders). Not to worry, we can make them pale blue and misunderstood and as widely divergent as real people).
So now we have rainbow drow that shoot sparkles from their benevolent asses. Again, apologists on the fence make excuses. "No I don't think it's racist but really, more options are not bad. We can give an inch here to keep things moving forward. Also when is Dark Sun being published? My nipples are hard at the prospect!"
It's not. You have accepted appeasement until you have lost options. It's not absurd to think there is a slippery slope! We are near the bottom of it! Prepare for fucking landing!
I have in the past tried to see the bright side, be agreeable. Questioned myself. Maybe I am being too hard headed? And in the end, I regret ever giving an inch anywhere. The implications of this madness are such that we cannot even like Tolkien!
Sauron warped creatures that were largely evil later. He tortured pillaged and conquered. The list goes on. So this stupid logic suggests in a fantasy game we should not even have evil conquerors to fight against. Well we can but we have to make sure they are not too successful or something.
And so here we are. More than than the sjw nut bags, I blame myself and others who in any fucking way tried to be agreeable.
I previously purchased my last WOTC product. And I lament that I have lost options. This for me will be the era of third party purchases. And to that end, if anyone knows a good 5e dark sun conversion I would appreciate a recommendation.
Welcome to the Rebellion, pal.
someone in the OSR needs to make "the Obsidian Helios" or something along those lines.
Greetings!
Indeed, Dapig, I agree with you entirely. I've always been a righteous, Conservative tyrant-barbarian. ;D I've appreciated the objectively, gamist and mechanical changes or options as being fine. (Like changes in AC, adding Feats and gewgaws). All of the social and ideologically-driven crying and diarrhea I have always rejected and been resistant against, precisely because I am *Conservative* and always have viewed such as jumping off of a cliff, on that damned slippery slide you talk about. Damn right, my friend. TO THE BOTTOM we are at!
Way to just sweep in like a B-29 raid, dropping awesome bombs of TRUTH, Dapig. Stay STRONG, and BE FIERCE, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Pundit's World of the Last Sun seems ripe to use and adapt to fill that exact niche (if it needs any changes at all), but it's OSR so you might have to do some conversion.
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 12:35:27 PM
Greetings!
Indeed, Dapig, I agree with you entirely. I've always been a righteous, Conservative tyrant-barbarian. ;D I've appreciated the objectively, gamist and mechanical changes or options as being fine. (Like changes in AC, adding Feats and gewgaws). All of the social and ideologically-driven crying and diarrhea I have always rejected and been resistant against, precisely because I am *Conservative* and always have viewed such as jumping off of a cliff, on that damned slippery slide you talk about. Damn right, my friend. TO THE BOTTOM we are at!
Way to just sweep in like a B-29 raid, dropping awesome bombs of TRUTH, Dapig. Stay STRONG, and BE FIERCE, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
SHARK, Thanks much.
I came here a good while back just done with other forums (fora? Hell I don't know). And over time, I recreated accounts and went back in the mix thinking there needs to be a rational voice out there and hey, 5e discussion is welcome.
And here we are now after playing nice. One domino keeps hitting another. What I am saying is that thinking it's coming is one thing. Watching in real time? Tragic.
Just give them Sudetenland. It will stop.
It turns out the slippery slope is not a fallacy. It's an ironclad, unassailable argument.
Quote from: Dapig on February 26, 2023, 12:07:36 PM
I have in the past tried to see the bright side, be agreeable. Questioned myself.
Am herein lies the problem when one side are decent agreeable folk, and the others are thought police tyrants.
Welcome to the culture war, let's hope we are in time save it.
Quote from: Corolinth on February 26, 2023, 01:56:01 PM
It turns out the slippery slope is not a fallacy. It's an ironclad, unassailable argument.
Depends. Often slippery slope arguments are chicken little nonsense. Not with "progressives" though. The difference is that they
want to go down the slope. Same way here, the SJW
want to do things that they know will make the games bland. They don't care. Hell, they are quite wiling to push someone off the edge, and skip the slope altogether. They just know that they can't always get away with that.
Good call and good decision to drop WotC!
There is so much other, better material out there, you don't need to compromise.
I, for one, see it as a good thing that Dark Sun is too "problematic". Maybe they'll leave it the hell alone. WotC has already fooked up Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, etc.
But then again. The amazing Jeremy Crawford, I think it was, said that WotC is ignoring anything pre-2014 canon, so there is no canon. I'm ignoring WotC entirely now so....I'm good.
The goal of these people is to turn the hobby into "Grey goo" -- Everything is equal, everything is exactly like everything else, no distinctions or qualities, a bland undifferentiated slime. But it's very inclusive.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on February 26, 2023, 04:27:29 PM
I, for one, see it as a good thing that Dark Sun is too "problematic". Maybe they'll leave it the hell alone. WotC has already fooked up Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, etc.
But then again. The amazing Jeremy Crawford, I think it was, said that WotC is ignoring anything pre-2014 canon, so there is no canon. I'm ignoring WotC entirely now so....I'm good.
Don't you worry, someone that seems to have been in charge of the Radiant Citadel has expressed interest in
totally ruining re-imagining Dark Sun for a modern audience.
That's not gonna suck giant monkey balls or anything.
Rainbow Sun campaign setting
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 26, 2023, 04:41:03 PM
Don't you worry, someone that seems to have been in charge of the Radiant Citadel has expressed interest in totally ruining re-imagining Dark Sun for a modern audience.
That's not gonna suck giant monkey balls or anything.
Yeah, I unfortunately heard that too. But I guess what I'm saying is I'm ignoring anything after 2014. It's not "official" to me, even though WotC owns the IP. I choose to ignore anything 5e. A good game underneath, but WotC has ruined it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 26, 2023, 12:36:43 PM
Pundit's World of the Last Sun seems ripe to use and adapt to fill that exact niche (if it needs any changes at all), but it's OSR so you might have to do some conversion.
The chapter on "The Shithole" in World of the Last Sun is specifically a take on the "Dark Sun" type of fantasy post-apocalypse scarcity everything-is-super-tough setting.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on February 26, 2023, 06:28:07 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 26, 2023, 04:41:03 PM
Don't you worry, someone that seems to have been in charge of the Radiant Citadel has expressed interest in totally ruining re-imagining Dark Sun for a modern audience.
That's not gonna suck giant monkey balls or anything.
Yeah, I unfortunately heard that too. But I guess what I'm saying is I'm ignoring anything after 2014. It's not "official" to me, even though WotC owns the IP. I choose to ignore anything 5e. A good game underneath, but WotC has ruined it.
I bet we can remain uninterested far longer than Hasbro can remain solvent.
Quote from: Dapig on February 26, 2023, 12:49:58 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 12:35:27 PM
Greetings!
Indeed, Dapig, I agree with you entirely. I've always been a righteous, Conservative tyrant-barbarian. ;D I've appreciated the objectively, gamist and mechanical changes or options as being fine. (Like changes in AC, adding Feats and gewgaws). All of the social and ideologically-driven crying and diarrhea I have always rejected and been resistant against, precisely because I am *Conservative* and always have viewed such as jumping off of a cliff, on that damned slippery slide you talk about. Damn right, my friend. TO THE BOTTOM we are at!
Way to just sweep in like a B-29 raid, dropping awesome bombs of TRUTH, Dapig. Stay STRONG, and BE FIERCE, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
SHARK, Thanks much.
I came here a good while back just done with other forums (fora? Hell I don't know). And over time, I recreated accounts and went back in the mix thinking there needs to be a rational voice out there and hey, 5e discussion is welcome.
And here we are now after playing nice. One domino keeps hitting another. What I am saying is that thinking it's coming is one thing. Watching in real time? Tragic.
Just give them Sudetenland. It will stop.
Greetings!
Tragic, indeed, my friend! I know, it feels so weird watching everything be destroyed, right before our eyes. And to the Woke, who love it all, they think it's all great! "What's your problem, bro?" ;D It feels like we are living in a Clown world that has gone insane, and has chosen to drive the entre culture into self-destruction and utter ruin.
"Just give them Sudetenland. It will stop." Yeah, I hear you. It feels so much like that.
As a student of History, I can testify that when cultures go insane like this, and become so corrupt and stupid like we have become--the ending is never pleasant. It never ends well, when you cross a "Rubicon" of corruption and stupidity. You either totally burn out and just rot into nothing; a Tyrant arises and sweeps all the corruption away, but the cost is the culture is entirely transformed into something different; or foreign invaders march in and rape and conquer. One, Two, or Three. There is no being saved, there is no restoration, or reconciliation. Ruin, Tyranny, or slavery and conquest. Any of the three result in the original culture being swept away and destroyed. That's just about where we are at, culturally. That cliff jump is a *long* way down. There is no recovering from that.
However, I would say also that realistically, as a slim ray of hope, there could be some kind of arrangement where a fw "islands" of sanity manage to exist, and carry on some decent form of of our formerly great culture. Having said that, though, even if even that were to somehow occur, the culture is still radically transformed into something else.
For our gaming hobby, maintain your own groups, build strong relationships with like-mind people, and dig in. Hold firm, and fight back against the morons at every opportunity. Push back, loudly, everywhere. Take no prisoners.
GIVE THEM NOTHING! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 07:31:18 PM
...or foreign invaders march in and rape and conquer...
Like Chesty Puller said, "Our country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any America — because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race."
As you say, it seems like we're on the brink of one of these eventualities. After the Stalinist political purges of our nation's military in the wake of the Jan 6 "insurrection" we also no longer meet recruiting goals. The "I hate America" club of nations are fully aware of all of this.
Quote from: Dapig on February 26, 2023, 12:07:36 PM
I have played a long time—-mostly 1e and later 5e.
Recently WOTC took another "stand" and explained why Dark Sun is not being remade. In a recent thread on another site, it was asserted that Dark Sun was not original nor in demand anyway. (The only sources I have seen suggest otherwise—-which is congruent with my own assessment).
But the crux is this: evil wizards take slaves. You can fight against it, but they have the upper hand. So the game is triggering? Or will be misused?
The further assertions by some online talking heads is that this is a special kind of evil and we should not make light of it. We "sanitize" it and should explore it more meaningfully if at all. The question of a morning star to the head and other action/adventure staples are exempt for now.
Fuck 'em. I got a used (and in great condition) original boxed Dark Sun at my FLGS, and bought the POD book from drivethrurpg for good measure.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e
Yeah, WOTC gets a cut, but if they must, they'll get a cut from the edition I prefer. Slavery included as a part of the setting.
Quote from: Zelen on February 26, 2023, 04:36:15 PM
The goal of these people is to turn the hobby into "Grey goo" -- Everything is equal, everything is exactly like everything else, no distinctions or qualities, a bland undifferentiated slime. But it's very inclusive.
They aren't satisfied with just making everything bland in every day life; they must also force people to not even pretend that things are different at a gaming table.
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 26, 2023, 09:49:51 PM
Quote from: Zelen on February 26, 2023, 04:36:15 PM
The goal of these people is to turn the hobby into "Grey goo" -- Everything is equal, everything is exactly like everything else, no distinctions or qualities, a bland undifferentiated slime. But it's very inclusive.
They aren't satisfied with just making everything bland in every day life; they must also force people to not even pretend that things are different at a gaming table.
They just want everyone to feel safe and included at a gaming table, whether you're a chest feeder, have native wisdom, are an Orc, sport a feminine penis, or are a FUCKING CIS HET WHITE MALE RAPIST!
It's called
empathy.Dark Sun always seemed like an interesting setting, even back when all I knew was art and blurbs from adverts. Since then I've learned some lore, and I'm working my way through the novels. My only beef with the novels is they're all about Avengers-level threats, and I'd like more grounded tales set on Athas.
Slippery slope is often misused, as if to mean it's something that will never happen. It's only the case when the two points being compared have nothing to do with each other. But when they share the same logical premises, it's not a slippery slope, it's just a logical inevitability.
(When I'm here, for once, why not give my two cents...)
I don't think this is necessarily a political move - but something more worrisome:
For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens. It's reasonable to assume that's going to be their long-term strategy, especially if they continue to have difficulties with their more mature audience. Products like that, ugh-not-gonna-Google-that, "Quest for the Sparkling Tower", or whatever that was called, are not interesting to the Powers That Be because they can be marketed to super-"woke" hipsters on Twitch, and there are no misunderstandings about whether they are "good" in comparison to stuff from other, "designer-managed" companies. --- But they are marketable to kids because they are going to be regarded as conventionally "insurable" and "safe".
In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.
Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:
QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.
That's not acceptable. The suggestion alone is not acceptable. ...And yet, this is where things seem to be going: "Insurable" content, paired with Orwellian terms of use. I'm pretty sure the market is going to regulate that, over time - in that other companies are going to put out material with more humane terms of use, and eventually win the day - but the old D&D brands will give some heartbreak on the way to that. Think about it - the new D&D movie could have been everything; the Powers That Be chose to make it an action comedy aimed at people who're younger than the intended audience of the old Transformers movies. We don't get Bruenor and Drizz't or the Strahd movie that would make oh so much sense; we get "Chris Evans and his Merry Men". Could be that this is somewhat of an error in the search of the smallest common denominator; or, could be that this is strategy.
Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens.
...
In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.
Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:
QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.
That's not acceptable. The suggestion alone is not acceptable. ...And yet, this is where things seem to be going: "Insurable" content, paired with Orwellian terms of use. I'm pretty sure the market is going to regulate that, over time - in that other companies are going to put out material with more humane terms of use, and eventually win the day - but the old D&D brands will give some heartbreak on the way to that. Think about it - the new D&D movie could have been everything; the Powers That Be chose to make it an action comedy aimed at people who're younger than the intended audience of the old Transformers movies. We don't get Bruenor and Drizz't or the Strahd movie that would make oh so much sense; we get "Chris Evans and his Merry Men". Could be that this is somewhat of an error in the search of the smallest common denominator; or, could be that this is strategy.
At least in the USA, it is very hard, bordering on impossible for a teen or pre-teen to enter a legally binding contract (assuming they haven't done the legal paperwork for emancipation and some other uncommon edge cases). WOTC's law department can't be so stupid as to try and do that with a child's work, right? They'd get sued by some IP law firm on contingency looking to clean their clock (plus bad PR).
Now if I create a module (or maybe help my kid publish their work), then yeah, WOTC might be able to make it stick. If my kid does it solo using the family printer (because I don't pay much attention to their hobbies), nope.
Wouldn't want anyone to feel unsafe with slavery in our game that heavily features mass murder of intelligent creatures ::)
Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:
QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.
OGL 1.1 has been binned, though. Obviously they WANT to own everything, but they have given up trying to do so. The 5e SRD is now Creative Commons.
Frankly I think WoTC are more interested in corrupting ('grooming') your teenage daughter, than in owning her IP. But they'd settle for monetising her.
As if the used market needed any more excuses in a bidding war. 8) Oh well, I guess the kids are really good at the piracies, what with how they were raised to spread their manga around. Most of them will not be affected; most likely more unread megabytes on their phones in these times. :(
Quote from: Howard on February 27, 2023, 03:35:49 AM
Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens.
...
In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.
Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:
QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.
That's not acceptable. The suggestion alone is not acceptable. ...And yet, this is where things seem to be going: "Insurable" content, paired with Orwellian terms of use. I'm pretty sure the market is going to regulate that, over time - in that other companies are going to put out material with more humane terms of use, and eventually win the day - but the old D&D brands will give some heartbreak on the way to that. Think about it - the new D&D movie could have been everything; the Powers That Be chose to make it an action comedy aimed at people who're younger than the intended audience of the old Transformers movies. We don't get Bruenor and Drizz't or the Strahd movie that would make oh so much sense; we get "Chris Evans and his Merry Men". Could be that this is somewhat of an error in the search of the smallest common denominator; or, could be that this is strategy.
At least in the USA, it is very hard, bordering on impossible for a teen or pre-teen to enter a legally binding contract (assuming they haven't done the legal paperwork for emancipation and some other uncommon edge cases). WOTC's law department can't be so stupid as to try and do that with a child's work, right? They'd get sued by some IP law firm on contingency looking to clean their clock (plus bad PR).
Now if I create a module (or maybe help my kid publish their work), then yeah, WOTC might be able to make it stick. If my kid does it solo using the family printer (because I don't pay much attention to their hobbies), nope.
I hope you're right, of course. Now, the bad thing, to me, is less what the legal consequences might specifically turn out to be, but the overall impression this gives: Like, they've already done the thing - market stuff to kids, try to sneak in some legal deviltry through the back door. That's pretty unethical, and yet they had no problem doing it.
I haven't been much of a regular client of WotC since the end of 3e. Seeing stuff like this, I'm not inclined to be one, again.
Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 06:05:09 AM
Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
Your teenage daughter writes the best adventure at your local, Hasbro-organized con, and wins a small prize? -- Well, Hasbro's ideal stance on this is, as per http://ogl.battlezoo.com/:
QuoteYou own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.
OGL 1.1 has been binned, though. Obviously they WANT to own everything, but they have given up trying to do so. The 5e SRD is now Creative Commons.
Frankly I think WoTC are more interested in corrupting ('grooming') your teenage daughter, than in owning her IP. But they'd settle for monetising her.
Sorry, didn't see your reply - I'm not sure if we agree about the "corrupting", but, yeah, we very much agree about the "monetizing". FFS, this is
bothering me to a degree that I didn't think it would. As you mention, the problem is not that WotC were not successful - the problem is that they've made it clear what their intentions are.
As a client, why would I trust them ever again? Like, it's not, whatever, like the kids couldn't play RuneQuest, and be rid of those dystopian nightmares.
If you're not concerned about the blatant social engineering of your kids, but hot and bothered about a far-fetched hypothetical theft of a wicked cool adventure, you may have your priorities bass ackwards.
This really should come as no big surprise... Just look at the muck they've been flinging out for 5e over the last couple of years. Nu Ravenloft was a joke.
So I'm only too happy that they have decided to leave Dark Sun alone. Imagine a 'new' setting after those bedwetters got their hands on it. Luckily that won't happen now. :)
Would you even want a remake of "Dark Sun" by the people currently working at WoTC? Better to get no Dark Sun than a ruined/spoiled/worthless version of it.
There is nothing stopping me from using Dark Sun material from AD&D2e and 3.5 for Savage Pathfinder. I'd rather Wizards not make new Dark Sun content quite frankly. I can make my own well enough.
I think that certain properties are much better off in the hands of third party folks les watered down pablum be the result.
When the drive to not offend takes precedence over the drive to entertain, only blandness can result.
It is disappointing. Not sure why I still had hope but here it is.
The evil wizards can't be too evil. Desperate fights can't be too desperate.
I stopped buying WotC stuff when they made it obvious they would rather have "representation" (whatever the fuck that means) than make useful products. Is this adventure fun? Irrelevant! It has twelve black lesbian elves with degrees in Marxist Theory!
The current batch of writers are either tier 1 garbage or they're so hogtied editorially they are unwillingly producing garbage. Either way they can all fuck off.
I had a typo above. It should have read "third party" not "their party" comrades.
Yes, I have lost all confidence in them handling things other than magic proms and Harry Potter lite stuff.
The issue for me is that the game is supposed to draw on history, myth and archetypes. But since a lot of history is cyclical or has recurring themes, all these folks can see is the most recent connection temporally.
In other words, instead of Egyptian slaves building the pyramids or Romans/Greeks all the current posse can link Dark Sun is apparently the AmericN sour in the 1850s.
So because of that, we have to dump all other historical inspiration. It is really pathological and limiting...
Quote from: Dapig on February 27, 2023, 11:40:33 AM
I had a typo above. It should have read "third party" not "their party" comrades.
Yes, I have lost all confidence in them handling things other than magic proms and Harry Potter lite stuff.
The issue for me is that the game is supposed to draw on history, myth and archetypes. But since a lot of history is cyclical or has recurring themes, all these folks can see is the most recent connection temporally.
In other words, instead of Egyptian slaves building the pyramids or Romans/Greeks all the current posse can link Dark Sun is apparently the AmericN sour in the 1850s.
So because of that, we have to dump all other historical inspiration. It is really pathological and limiting...
As others have said here, they are trying to turn D&D into a product that busy soccer moms and woke hipster dads can buy for their kids without thinking and without the fear of getting canceled by other parents. (Hasbro is a toy company after all.) History is inconvenient to that goal. Which is a shame because kids generally like learning about history, whether fictionalized or actual, in all its brutality, glory, and humanity. In fact, the more messed up it is, the more most kids want to learn about it, in my experience.
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 27, 2023, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Dapig on February 27, 2023, 11:40:33 AM
I had a typo above. It should have read "third party" not "their party" comrades.
Yes, I have lost all confidence in them handling things other than magic proms and Harry Potter lite stuff.
The issue for me is that the game is supposed to draw on history, myth and archetypes. But since a lot of history is cyclical or has recurring themes, all these folks can see is the most recent connection temporally.
In other words, instead of Egyptian slaves building the pyramids or Romans/Greeks all the current posse can link Dark Sun is apparently the AmericN sour in the 1850s.
So because of that, we have to dump all other historical inspiration. It is really pathological and limiting...
As others have said here, they are trying to turn D&D into a product that busy soccer moms and woke hipster dads can buy for their kids without thinking and without the fear of getting canceled by other parents. (Hasbro is a toy company after all.) History is inconvenient to that goal. Which is a shame because kids generally like learning about history, whether fictionalized or actual, in all its brutality, glory, and humanity. In fact, the more messed up it is, the more most kids want to learn about it, in my experience.
Yeah. You can see it come together. More magic proms and Harry potter and less Conan , King Arthur and other cool stuff.
But there is more to it than that. The whole biological essentialism thing and others is surely a politixal thing divorced from marketing.
Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
I don't think this is necessarily a political move - but something more worrisome:
For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens. It's reasonable to assume that's going to be their long-term strategy, especially if they continue to have difficulties with their more mature audience.
In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.
The changes they are making to 6e are clearly pointing to a dumbing down of the game. Spell lists simplified. Druids and summons simplified. Odds are this is just a forerunner of how bad it may get.
It may be that they are not targeting the pre-teens.
They are targeting a lower and lower IQ range.
We see warning signs in 5e Advantage because basic math is just too hard. More and more summons are "fey" or "Spirits" rather than actual creatures. And when they die they just "go home" awwwwww.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 27, 2023, 08:18:48 AM
This really should come as no big surprise... Just look at the muck they've been flinging out for 5e over the last couple of years. Nu Ravenloft was a joke.
So I'm only too happy that they have decided to leave Dark Sun alone. Imagine a 'new' setting after those bedwetters got their hands on it. Luckily that won't happen now. :)
Side topic. I have Curse of Strahd and the woke insertions are mostly nothings. One is so nothing Im not even sure what the fuck the point was. Overall it is surprisingly not a bad presentation.
Van Richten's though. THAT is trash. Some good ideas in there completely lost to the butchering of so many Domains of Dread.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 26, 2023, 12:31:48 PM
someone in the OSR needs to make "the Obsidian Helios" or something along those lines.
There are a few alternatives out there (Chaalt, Last Sun, Cinderheim, Dragon Kinds, etc.) , but I've been thinking of writing my own.
So far, only a couple of posts and vague ideas.
Not sure about the name yet.
Red Sun Rising?
Rise of the Red Sun?
Blues for the Red Sun?
Quote from: Omega on February 27, 2023, 12:38:26 PM
Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
I don't think this is necessarily a political move - but something more worrisome:
For the last few years, there's been a certain push in WotC's marketing to bring D&D to preteens. It's reasonable to assume that's going to be their long-term strategy, especially if they continue to have difficulties with their more mature audience.
In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.
The changes they are making to 6e are clearly pointing to a dumbing down of the game. Spell lists simplified. Druids and summons simplified. Odds are this is just a forerunner of how bad it may get.
It may be that they are not targeting the pre-teens.
They are targeting a lower and lower IQ range.
We see warning signs in 5e Advantage because basic math is just too hard. More and more summons are "fey" or "Spirits" rather than actual creatures. And when they die they just "go home" awwwwww.
Please give me shorter spell lists and simpler summons. I would rather have simple B/X or ACKS spell lists that I can expand with flavour, rather than endless spell lists that already do everything, have "joke" spells or other entries totally inappropriate to the mood if game I'm trying to run, shortcut half the challenges far sooner than I want the party to have a workaround, etc etc.
(Note: I haven't been following 6e, and I don't really intend to, so I guess it's possible they're messing that up somehow? But there's nothing inherently wrong with it.)
Quote from: Omega on February 27, 2023, 12:38:26 PM
We see warning signs in 5e Advantage because basic math is just too hard.
It's less that math is hard and more that math (particularly all the +1s and +2s on a d20 check) is less likely to actually be interesting.
I used to think as you do while developing my system. I much preferred static modifers for things. However, because of my stated position of "question everything" I vowed to at least give advantage/disadvantage a test.
I'm still a little bummed that my static modifiers got nuked so horribly. The moment I knew it was all over was when, at a critical moment one of the players rolled a 3 on the die (they needed an 11+) and it looked like a TPK, but then was reminded they had advantage...
They did their second roll. Wouldn't you know it? Natural Twenty. The day was saved and it was all anyone could talk about. Nothing less than a +8 bonus would have made a difference in that outcome... there was no way any level of static bonuses was going to compete with that endorphin hit.
Indeed, it was one of the player's comments that really made me understand the appeal (they were unfamiliar with 5e so their choice of description was really telling). They said they really enjoyed having the "saving throw vs. failure" in the game.
Saving Throw vs. Failure. When seen through that lens it's not "the math is too hard" it's "this is another dramatic moment in the gameplay."
"I screwed up, but maybe this next roll can save me."
The "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat" (and visa versa) are moments in the gameplay where memories can happen. No one remembers the attack that was going to hit anyway or the near certain failure that fails. But they for damned sure remember the moment they were saved from certain defeat or when clear victory was snatched away.
That is the power and advantage of the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanics... not really making the math easier (which is arguable... the probability for multiple dice is usually harder to grokk the odds for than static modifiers to a single die).
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
Some of us actually preferred 4E to the prior versions of D&D. It was the first time I was ever able to use D&D to play a fantasy wizard that in any way resembled the kinds that actually appear in fiction that wasn't itself derived from D&D and allowed for warriors to pull off cool stunts by default instead of needing to play the "GM May I" game with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities.
It also made entirely non-magic settings with no magic gear something you could just do without needing to houserule anything and let the trope of the swashbuckler-type hero in light/no armor be a thing that wasn't overly penalized by the default mechanics.
Basically it was D&D for all the people who thought D&D was generic fantasy and not a very specific subgenre of limited-shot casters and warriors who could only compete by being decked out like Christmas trees in magic items.
Turns out I never actually got over my initial negative impressions of AD&D (I say again, thank God for Palladium). I just came back to the least D&D version of D&D ever and enjoyed that immensely.
If you really like Dark Sun just run the old version. Screw 5E too. :-P
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AMSome of us actually preferred 4E to the prior versions of D&D.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FkPMwTWvKadCG4%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=77a4bed24c733a784dcd260bddeffe1d9a89351f7c077187107096bd3dfb5f2b&ipo=images)
(https://goodman-games.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/DCC_DyingEarth_Cover_SR.jpg)
Quote from: Rafael on February 27, 2023, 03:19:53 AM
In difference to most of you, I've almost never cared/been seriously upset about most gaming industry stuff; I'm pretty worried about this situation, though: The push towards a pre-teen audience comes with WotC's push to tighten the legal conditions of using their products in a public space.
Maybe they can control a Hasbro backed event but they have no control how I use their product outside of that. Wizards can try to come and stop how I run a game. I dare them. they wont like the results.
Quote from: rusty shackleford on February 27, 2023, 04:22:38 AM
Wouldn't want anyone to feel unsafe with slavery in our game that heavily features mass murder of intelligent creatures ::)
Yep. Slavery wrong. Killing people because you feel they are bad? No problem
Quote from: Omega on February 27, 2023, 12:43:49 PM
Side topic. I have Curse of Strahd and the woke insertions are mostly nothings. One is so nothing Im not even sure what the fuck the point was. Overall it is surprisingly not a bad presentation.
Van Richten's though. THAT is trash. Some good ideas in there completely lost to the butchering of so many Domains of Dread.
Just a question: Is it possible to work around the woke crap or are they imbedded in a way that you cant ignore them?
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 08:59:09 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
"GM May I"
All you needed to say.
A little selective in your quoting. You missed the important caveat... "with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities."
If you've never had some fat fuck of a DM tell you that your fighter can't possibly do something entirely reasonable (ex. jump over a 10' gap with a running start) because it's not something they could do (implication being they believe they are the pinnacle of physical ability) then you're either extremely lucky or a liar (I can't even claim it as a unique experience).
Having actual game mechanics to cover such things without needing to get a delusional fat slob let you perform the sort actions a person capable of benching 300+ pounds and trained in acrobatics and athletics and the use of all types of weapons and armor would be expected to be able to do was immensely useful to avoiding conflicts at the table.
If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
Some didn't learn the lesson. That is the sad advantage of subverting the 800 pound gorilla of gaming to your Marxist sociopolitical whims.
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM
If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.
But who do you think writes RPG rules?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? ;D
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
People bought WotC stuff? ;)
:( You can't have bad guys! You can only have sad guys, misunderstood guys, and "all of you made me do it, you vicious oppressor!" guys.
Dark Sun is too depressing and not reworkable to 'subvert expectations' for the above message. Because reforming evil is hard. :-[
Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2023, 11:59:26 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM
If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.
But who do you think writes RPG rules? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? ;D
People who are at least self-aware enough to realize that they are probably nowhere near perfect physical specimens... hopefully.
One of the first places I started for my rules was various world records for where to put the upper limits human attributes. 30-35' per second for a dash. 7.5' per second speed swimming. 30' for a world record running long jump and about 7' for a non-flop running high jump. Lifting 600 pounds for maximum human potential (not-counting magic).
Then you just decide if you want those as the actual limits or whether you want Batman/Cinematic limits where they are more your starting limits and PCs can actually reach the mild superhuman levels you see with Batman and similar combatants.
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 11:10:17 AM
Some didn't learn the lesson. That is the sad advantage of subverting the 800 pound gorilla of gaming to your Marxist sociopolitical whims.
I bought 5e because I wanted to play an official version of D&D.
Played 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.
Bought 4e (IE D&D the MMORPG) which wasnt what I was looking for.
I thought 5e was worth a try, It's not great but its not horrible.
Quote from: Zelen on February 26, 2023, 04:58:36 PM
Rainbow Sun campaign setting
This made me chuckle :D
Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 11:10:17 AM
Some didn't learn the lesson. That is the sad advantage of subverting the 800 pound gorilla of gaming to your Marxist sociopolitical whims.
I bought 5e because I wanted to play an official version of D&D.
Played 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.
Bought 4e (IE D&D the MMORPG) which wasnt what I was looking for.
I thought 5e was worth a try, It's not great but its not horrible.
WotC views its customers as a captive audience that they can milk for profit because they own the D&D IP. Looking at your buying history that you posted, they were right.
Now that is a horrible thing for me to say, but it fits with what you posted and hundreds of thousands of TTRPG players believe. Since 5E is considered official D&D (the 800 Pound Gorilla of Gaming) having it be owned and subverted by social Marxist assholes to push an agenda is a very powerful use of that brand recognition.
I called it quits with 4E because it was demonstrated to me that WotC wanted my money and not necessarily my patronage as a customer. Seeing how they used the Coordinated Play program members as brownshirts to ensure that D&D was the only game to play at most FLGS told me that this newer breed of Official D&D didn't want me as a target demographic. That doesn't make me better or more aware, it just means that I am less tolerant of corporate driven bullshit than most others.
Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcademicOptimisticAxolotl-max-1mb.gif)
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 28, 2023, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcademicOptimisticAxolotl-max-1mb.gif)
I'm not GhostNinja but had a similar experience - gave up 3.5 because it was so overcomplicated. And I went to play GURPS!
Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 28, 2023, 08:22:49 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 28, 2023, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcademicOptimisticAxolotl-max-1mb.gif)
I'm not GhostNinja but had a similar experience - gave up 3.5 because it was so overcomplicated. And I went to play GURPS!
If you didn't sell your books and quit gaming, you didn't have a similar experience.
NONONONONO!! You can't abandon WoTC! They aren't done disappointing you yet! Plus certainly you still have money they can burn!
Stop being problematic, slave!
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 08:59:09 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
"GM May I"
All you needed to say.
A little selective in your quoting. You missed the important caveat... "with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities."
If you've never had some fat fuck of a DM tell you that your fighter can't possibly do something entirely reasonable (ex. jump over a 10' gap with a running start) because it's not something they could do (implication being they believe they are the pinnacle of physical ability) then you're either extremely lucky or a liar (I can't even claim it as a unique experience).
Having actual game mechanics to cover such things without needing to get a delusional fat slob let you perform the sort actions a person capable of benching 300+ pounds and trained in acrobatics and athletics and the use of all types of weapons and armor would be expected to be able to do was immensely useful to avoiding conflicts at the table.
If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.
A bad GM can fuck up every game from Prince Valiant to Phoenix Command, designing to idiot-proof a game is futile. Seriously, look back at what you wrote - It's dripping with bitter venom from bad GM experiences. Sorry, those experiences are not universal. If I have a session with a GM I don't like or disagree with, I don't return.
I've seen High School athletes do an 8ft Standing Long Jump, so yeah a fighter with good stats not being able to do a 10ft Running Long Jump is asinine. That's got nothing to do with where a GM sits on Rulings vs. Rules and where systems move that slider.
You could just as easily have a GM go crazy with RAW interpretations that obviously aren't RAI. Or you could have a system where what was actually happening in the setting didn't really matter as long as the rules were followed (like the infamous tripping of oozes in 4e).
But, as much as I have written about 4e on this board, I was pointing to not trusting WotC after what they pulled with the GSL and the run up to 4e.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 28, 2023, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on February 28, 2023, 01:43:14 PMPlayed 3.5 before but it was so overcomplicated that I quit the game I was in, sold my books and actually stopped gaming for a time.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcademicOptimisticAxolotl-max-1mb.gif)
'
One Hundred percent. I was a player but we had to stop and check the rulebook because of confusion on the rules. 3.5 is way over complicated. I believe it was written by people who wanted to turn D&D into a wargame instead of an RPG
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 01, 2023, 10:03:50 AM
3.5 is way over complicated. I believe it was written by people who wanted to turn D&D into a wargame instead of an RPG
I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.
"Too complex" doesn't mean "too complex to understand or play." It's shorthand for "The complexity is not well chosen."
3E went from something I enjoyed well enough to something that I didn't over time. To be fair, though, I don't think it's over complicated. However, it is a great example, to me, of what people mean when they talk about "complexity budgets" in games. As in, you only get so much complexity. Where and how you use it matters. Naturally, I think that part of the problem with 3E is that the designers didn't budget their complexity. They just put in whatever made sense to them. Pulling back on a little complexity here or there, because some hardnose complexity auditor made them justify each inclusion, would have probably meant the game kept almost its entire feature set, with notably less complexity.
And that's pretty well true of 3E as a whole. Designed somewhat well, developed reasonably well, edited for typos fair, edited for content, poor. Which is why 3.5 would have been a lot better received if they had simple backed away from some of the complexity that wasn't adding enough bang for its cost, and then done a better game editing job on the final product. Would have been backwards compatible, too. The fact that 3.5 did remove some "not worth it" complexity got overrun by all the nit picky complexity introduced for no good reason. Of course, game editing is hard work, and they wouldn't have been able to sell a new set of books while pretending that they didn't put out a new version.
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 06:31:04 PM
WotC views its customers as a captive audience that they can milk for profit because they own the D&D IP. Looking at your buying history that you posted, they were right.
I guess I cannot argue this fact. You are right.
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 06:31:04 PMNow that is a horrible thing for me to say, but it fits with what you posted and hundreds of thousands of TTRPG players believe. Since 5E is considered official D&D (the 800 Pound Gorilla of Gaming) having it be owned and subverted by social Marxist assholes to push an agenda is a very powerful use of that brand recognition.
Yes. I currently have the core set and tashas and xanathars and that is it for the WOTC books. Have a couple third party books and have no interest in buying anything else Now that I know about the OSR I am looking at a few of those systems to switch to and get fully away from "Official D&D"[/quote]
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 28, 2023, 06:31:04 PMI called it quits with 4E because it was demonstrated to me that WotC wanted my money and not necessarily my patronage as a customer. Seeing how they used the Coordinated Play program members as brownshirts to ensure that D&D was the only game to play at most FLGS told me that this newer breed of Official D&D didn't want me as a target demographic. That doesn't make me better or more aware, it just means that I am less tolerant of corporate driven bullshit than most others.
I 100% agree with this.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 10:13:21 AM
I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.
It felt to me like they were trying to turn it into a wargame instead of it being a role playing game.
Quote from: crkrueger on March 01, 2023, 08:42:39 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 10:25:44 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 08:59:09 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 28, 2023, 08:04:39 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
"GM May I"
All you needed to say.
A little selective in your quoting. You missed the important caveat... "with people who's understanding of what a human can do is judged by their own capabilities."
If you've never had some fat fuck of a DM tell you that your fighter can't possibly do something entirely reasonable (ex. jump over a 10' gap with a running start) because it's not something they could do (implication being they believe they are the pinnacle of physical ability) then you're either extremely lucky or a liar (I can't even claim it as a unique experience).
Having actual game mechanics to cover such things without needing to get a delusional fat slob let you perform the sort actions a person capable of benching 300+ pounds and trained in acrobatics and athletics and the use of all types of weapons and armor would be expected to be able to do was immensely useful to avoiding conflicts at the table.
If you've never experienced PC death because a GM said your 18/54 Strength PC can't possibly jump a 10' gap with a running start (after you've already committed to the jump) because his lazy inflated ass couldn't accomplish the same, count your blessings and don't mock those who prefer the foundation of rules over rulings by idiots.
A bad GM can fuck up every game from Prince Valiant to Phoenix Command, designing to idiot-proof a game is futile. Seriously, look back at what you wrote - It's dripping with bitter venom from bad GM experiences. Sorry, those experiences are not universal. If I have a session with a GM I don't like or disagree with, I don't return.
I've seen High School athletes do an 8ft Standing Long Jump, so yeah a fighter with good stats not being able to do a 10ft Running Long Jump is asinine. That's got nothing to do with where a GM sits on Rulings vs. Rules and where systems move that slider.
You could just as easily have a GM go crazy with RAW interpretations that obviously aren't RAI. Or you could have a system where what was actually happening in the setting didn't really matter as long as the rules were followed (like the infamous tripping of oozes in 4e).
But, as much as I have written about 4e on this board, I was pointing to not trusting WotC after what they pulled with the GSL and the run up to 4e.
It all depends on how much gear/weight the fighter has on when they attempt the jump of 10 feet.
If they are like a high school student in shorts, then 10 feet should be no problem.
If they are wearing plate armor and carrying 20 pounds of gear, then it's doubtful that they will be able to jump the 10 feet.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 01, 2023, 11:30:05 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 10:13:21 AM
I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.
It felt to me like they were trying to turn it into a wargame instead of it being a role playing game.
Yeah, I think there were definitely elements of that.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 11:34:00 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 01, 2023, 11:30:05 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 01, 2023, 10:13:21 AM
I always felt it had too many player doodads and tactical combat options, etc. I've never been a fan of 3.5 myself or pathfinder.
It felt to me like they were trying to turn it into a wargame instead of it being a role playing game.
Yeah, I think there were definitely elements of that.
I did not think the fiddly stuff was worth it. I have played wargames and pretend to be literate...so comprehension was not a problem. Slowing things down to recall little conditional bonuses from feats and prestige classes seemed anticlimactic.
It was ok but not worth it to dm.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 10:34:21 AM
"Too complex" doesn't mean "too complex to understand or play." It's shorthand for "The complexity is not well chosen."
3E went from something I enjoyed well enough to something that I didn't over time. To be fair, though, I don't think it's over complicated. However, it is a great example, to me, of what people mean when they talk about "complexity budgets" in games. As in, you only get so much complexity. Where and how you use it matters. Naturally, I think that part of the problem with 3E is that the designers didn't budget their complexity. They just put in whatever made sense to them. Pulling back on a little complexity here or there, because some hardnose complexity auditor made them justify each inclusion, would have probably meant the game kept almost its entire feature set, with notably less complexity.
And that's pretty well true of 3E as a whole. Designed somewhat well, developed reasonably well, edited for typos fair, edited for content, poor. Which is why 3.5 would have been a lot better received if they had simple backed away from some of the complexity that wasn't adding enough bang for its cost, and then done a better game editing job on the final product. Would have been backwards compatible, too. The fact that 3.5 did remove some "not worth it" complexity got overrun by all the nit picky complexity introduced for no good reason. Of course, game editing is hard work, and they wouldn't have been able to sell a new set of books while pretending that they didn't put out a new version.
Some really good insight here, but I do have to disagree with one little thing. The designers didn't accidentally include too much complexity. They did it on purpose. One of the stated goals for Monte Cook (as he revealed in his infamous interview) was to reward system mastery. And, I think in his mind and the minds of lots of players and designers, that meant making the mechanics of the game sizable enough that players really have to dedicate time and effort to choose the "best" options (or, at least, options that are not radically less powerful or impactful as the other available choices). Now, I'm not saying that rules density equals a requirement for system mastery (look at "Go," a game with a handful of rules, but one that is incredibly difficult to master). But I think that Cook and others
did think that way, or at least they were only capable of creating the need for system mastery via rules bloat (I've never understood the praise Cook gets as an RPG designer... he's competent, but not a "master" craftsman or anything). So I think that what you describe is accurate, except for the motivation. And that motivation is part of what soured those of us who grew up on TSR D&D towards WotC from the beginning. And then there was 4e...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:34:49 PM
...
Some really good insight here, but I do have to disagree with one little thing. The designers didn't accidentally include too much complexity. They did it on purpose. One of the stated goals for Monte Cook (as he revealed in his infamous interview) was to reward system mastery. And, I think in his mind and the minds of lots of players and designers, that meant making the mechanics of the game sizable enough that players really have to dedicate time and effort to choose the "best" options (or, at least, options that are not radically less powerful or impactful as the other available choices). Now, I'm not saying that rules density equals a requirement for system mastery (look at "Go," a game with a handful of rules, but one that is incredibly difficult to master). But I think that Cook and others did think that way, or at least they were only capable of creating the need for system mastery via rules bloat (I've never understood the praise Cook gets as an RPG designer... he's competent, but not a "master" craftsman or anything). So I think that what you describe is accurate, except for the motivation. And that motivation is part of what soured those of us who grew up on TSR D&D towards WotC from the beginning. And then there was 4e...
Yeah, this is what I remember too ol Monte saying. And it did sour me. Took me too long to realize the why but you hit the nail on the head.
I for one fully support D&D going super gay woke, I'm talking having Crawford and his husband do a self insertion for a gay wedding for the cover of the 6E Player handbook. Removal of character classes, you can build whatever character you want, slimmed down combat rules with modules enforcing social settling of conflict, Orcs are the smartest bestest ever and elves and dwarves fuck like minks and are totally into each other. I want to see D&D get burned down to the ground by listening to the moronic left. The sooner D&D goes broke, the sooner the IP will be sold to someone who ain't woke.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 01, 2023, 07:34:49 PM
Some really good insight here, but I do have to disagree with one little thing. The designers didn't accidentally include too much complexity. They did it on purpose. One of the stated goals for Monte Cook (as he revealed in his infamous interview) was to reward system mastery. And, I think in his mind and the minds of lots of players and designers, that meant making the mechanics of the game sizable enough that players really have to dedicate time and effort to choose the "best" options (or, at least, options that are not radically less powerful or impactful as the other available choices). Now, I'm not saying that rules density equals a requirement for system mastery (look at "Go," a game with a handful of rules, but one that is incredibly difficult to master). But I think that Cook and others did think that way, or at least they were only capable of creating the need for system mastery via rules bloat (I've never understood the praise Cook gets as an RPG designer... he's competent, but not a "master" craftsman or anything). So I think that what you describe is accurate, except for the motivation. And that motivation is part of what soured those of us who grew up on TSR D&D towards WotC from the beginning. And then there was 4e...
I don't really disagree with any of that. I wasn't really addressing motivation, though I can see how it would seem that I was. Rather, my point is that
unless complexity is actively and consciously policed, it will grow out of control. An attitude of, "it doesn't matter, just throw it in there," versus, "throw it in there on purpose," isn't functionally different from my perspective. Well, except that as you allude, someone with the former might hesitate when play testing and thoughtful review of the results didn't match expectations. Except that they didn't do a good job with either the testing or the review--ergo we are back to it just didn't matter.
Better motivations might have made a big difference in the 3.5 changes, however. Assuming that the WotC sales plan could have been overcome.
I think Cook is an OK designer and a very good developer. What he needs, however, is a good editor and a good boss to throw the brakes on when his imagination runs away with things.
I think it's good to remember that 3.0/3.5 were wildly successful and popular, ran for years, sold a ton of books, and is still regularly played. So don't confuse not liking design choices with them being poor design choices.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 01, 2023, 09:41:47 PM
I think it's good to remember that 3.0/3.5 were wildly successful and popular, ran for years, sold a ton of books, and is still regularly played. So don't confuse not liking design choices with them being poor design choices.
Of course they have some good design choices. In a game that big, it's not all or nothing. There's two different standards when discussing these things though:
1. Does it do what it sets out to do such that people can use it as intended?
2. How well does it go beyond that?
The first tells you if people used it and enjoyed it. By that token, 3E is a mixed bag. It pretty much works as intended for levels 1-7 (whatever one thinks about that intention), sort of does if you keep it under tight control and/or house rule it a lot around levels 8-13, and then rapidly breaks down after that. If that sounds harsh, well remember that most D&D games tend to do better in the earlier levels. So it isn't like 3E is grossly poor by that standard.
The second is constructive criticism on what could have been. to me, the most damning thing of the whole 3E arc is how slapdash 3.5 forward was handled. Yeah, they did some things that worked better. But they achieved that by throwing a lot of stuff against the wall to see what would stick. It's effective, but there's nothing "thoughtful" about it at all.
D&D being a kind of hybrid RPG/Tactical Wargame was actually my favorite part of 3.0/3.5
If I just wanted an RPG I'd choose...well, most things that aren't D&D. But some rpg wedded to minis and tactical map positioning? That was kind of neat.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 09:59:22 PM
So it isn't like 3E is grossly poor by that standard.
I definitely find 3e to be grossly poor at high level compared to
every other D&D edition. It really is a standout.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 01, 2023, 07:47:14 PM
I for one fully support D&D going super gay woke, I'm talking having Crawford and his husband do a self insertion for a gay wedding for the cover of the 6E Player handbook. Removal of character classes, you can build whatever character you want, slimmed down combat rules with modules enforcing social settling of conflict, Orcs are the smartest bestest ever and elves and dwarves fuck like minks and are totally into each other. I want to see D&D get burned down to the ground by listening to the moronic left. The sooner D&D goes broke, the sooner the IP will be sold to someone who ain't woke.
Bold added by me. What's kind of funny is that the OG editions (1E and 2E) did make note of concepts like parley in encounters and that not every encounter had to be a fight. Sometimes you wanted to save your resources for a later battle.
I know that's not what you meant, of course, but the juxtaposition amuses me.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2023, 08:02:46 AM
Bold added by me. What's kind of funny is that the OG editions (1E and 2E) did make note of concepts like parley in encounters and that not every encounter had to be a fight. Sometimes you wanted to save your resources for a later battle.
I know that's not what you meant, of course, but the juxtaposition amuses me.
All Combat All The Time is something I associate with WoTC D&D - 3e, and especially 4e. 5e rowed back on it a bit, but it's still more combat-centric than OD&D in the core.
Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 08:29:07 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2023, 08:02:46 AM
Bold added by me. What's kind of funny is that the OG editions (1E and 2E) did make note of concepts like parley in encounters and that not every encounter had to be a fight. Sometimes you wanted to save your resources for a later battle.
I know that's not what you meant, of course, but the juxtaposition amuses me.
All Combat All The Time is something I associate with WoTC D&D - 3e, and especially 4e. 5e rowed back on it a bit, but it's still more combat-centric than OD&D in the core.
Well, if combats take most of your gaming time to resolve, it would seem that way, regardless of what you tried to do. Which granted, feeds into the way people handle things, the same way that needing to save resources encourages you to save them. My point being, that you could take a party of, say, AD&D 1st level characters through the Caves of Chaos, and then do the same with a party of 3E 1st level characters. Level them according to the rules. Have all the role play decisions be exactly the same (somehow despite the incentives). And you'd still spend a lot more of your game time in the latter in combat, even running away and negotiating.
"Whaddya mean we gotta talk to this lynx?? The last monster we talked to ate half of the party!"
Quote from: Baron on March 03, 2023, 02:55:01 PM
"Whaddya mean we gotta talk to this lynx?? The last monster we talked to ate half of the party!"
This is where monster knowledge comes into play. Some monsters can be negotiated with, others cannot. Some can be outwitted easily, others... well, you might wanna play it straight with them.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2023, 04:09:29 PM
Quote from: Baron on March 03, 2023, 02:55:01 PM
"Whaddya mean we gotta talk to this lynx?? The last monster we talked to ate half of the party!"
This is where monster knowledge comes into play. Some monsters can be negotiated with, others cannot. Some can be outwitted easily, others... well, you might wanna play it straight with them.
This is where what the PC knows vs what the Player knows comes into play. Your PC might (and quite often does) know way less than you do.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2023, 04:09:29 PM
Quote from: Baron on March 03, 2023, 02:55:01 PM
"Whaddya mean we gotta talk to this lynx?? The last monster we talked to ate half of the party!"
This is where monster knowledge comes into play. Some monsters can be negotiated with, others cannot. Some can be outwitted easily, others... well, you might wanna play it straight with them.
Geez, you challenge ONE winged lion chick to a riddle contest, and they never let you forget it!
Quote from: crkrueger on February 28, 2023, 07:43:36 AM
People still bought WotC stuff after 4e?
5e Was not 4e or 3e. It feels more in line with 2e in some ways. Not everyone likes the hyper complexity of 3e.