Quote from: Greentongue;1119732Sounds like that has to go on my reading list pronto!

Also explains a lot about most of the world and where we will be if there is ever a Mega Crash.

Well keep in mind that the Industrial Revolution is as much about social and philosophical ideas as well as technology. If there is a mega crash the aftermath will be it own thing because these ideas are not going to go away.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1119541I suspect that's because modern Third World countries - including the one that I just finished living in for eight years - are practically defined by their failed institutions whereas Western Europeans ultimately succeeded because of their/our successful institutions (I will leave the authors of "Why Nations Fail" to make the academic argument).

One of the many interesting things about the failures of the Philippines is that you get to see Dark Ages, pre-Reformation Catholicism in action. Much of the success of the West was built on the Reformation and I think the experiences of the modern Philippines confirm this.

Interesting. What does pre-Reformation Catholicism look like anyway?

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom...Much of the success of the West was built on the Reformation...

Most likely it is the other way around. The hostility of civil powers played a significant role. One of the chief means employed in promoting the spread of the Reformation was the use of violence by the princes and municipal authorities. The Reformation occurred after the development of the modern state, not before.

Quote from: GameDaddyInteresting. What does pre-Reformation Catholicism look like anyway?

Here are some of my notes on the medieval church:

Compared to today, there was far greater emphasis on acquiring divine favor through mechanical means such as charms, pilgrimages, holy images, and the relics of saints. The most cherished relics of all were those associated with Christ and the Virgin Mary. In its emphasis on the supernatural powers of material objects, popular belief carried a residue from long-ago days of pagan magic.

The great shortcoming of the high medieval Church was not gross corruption but rather a creeping complacency that resulted sometimes in a shallow, mechanical attitude toward the Christian religious life and an obsession with ecclesiastical property.

The Church played a vital role in the operation of tenth- and early-eleventh-century society, but it was usually subordinate to the lay ruling class.

Eleventh century bishops were inclined to regard themselves as a brotherhood of spiritual leaders, exercising much local autonomy and wide powers of jurisdiction, under a papacy that guided them only very gently from a respectful distance.

From the lay standpoint it was an effective administrative tool, but from the spiritual standpoint it was sometimes inadequate and even corrupt.

Monasteries all too frequently ignored the strict Benedictine Rule and some priests had concubines, and many had wives.

Lay lords often sold bishoprics and abbacies to unworthy, self-seeking churchmen, who then recouped the purchase price by exploiting their tenants and subordinates. This commerce was known as simony.

In general reformers fell into two groups:

One consisted of moderates who sought to eliminate simony, enforce clerical celibacy, and improve the moral caliber of churchmen, but without challenging the Church's traditional collaboration with kings and princes.

The second group was much more radical, its goal being to demolish the tradition of the lay control and to rebuild society on the pattern of the papal monarchy theory.

During the twelfth century, the papacy lost much of its former zealous reform spirit as it evolved into a huge, complex administrative institution.

The Franciscans and the Dominicans emerged in the 13th century, a more compassionate and effective response to heresy than the inquisition (the Roman inquisition represented the medieval church at its most repressive).

The waning of papal authority stemmed from an ever-widening gulf between papal government and the spiritual thirst of ordinary Christians combined with the hostility to Catholic internationalism on the part of increasingly powerful centralized kingdoms such as England and France.

Looking at the high medieval Church from the broadest possible perspective we see a religious institution with a cohesion, independence, and political leverage unmatched in all history.

The impact of medieval Christianity on our modern world is too pervasive and complex to be precisely measured. But it may be more than coincidence that the civilization that has transformed the globe emerged from a society that possessed, in the words of Sir Richard Southern, "the most elaborate and thoroughly integrated system of religious thought and practice the world has ever known."

Quote from: GameDaddy;1119749Interesting. What does pre-Reformation Catholicism look like anyway?

More idols. More corruption. More indulgences for sale. More secrecy. More pagan.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1119790Most likely it is the other way around. The hostility of civil powers played a significant role. One of the chief means employed in promoting the spread of the Reformation was the use of violence by the princes and municipal authorities. The Reformation occurred after the development of the modern state, not before. (snip)

I can understand why you would say that and agree in part. However, I would argue - as the authors of Why Nations Fail essentially do - that the success of the West was built on the multitude of successful, fit-for-purpose, competing institutions which clashed over ideas and, to a certain extent, held each other accountable while limiting each other's power and/or influence. That allowed, inter alia, the classical liberal tradition to flourish (which is the antithesis of the oxymoron of American liberalism) and so we saw civilisation flourish.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1119790Here are some of my notes on the medieval church:

Compared to today, there was far greater emphasis on acquiring divine favor through mechanical means such as charms, pilgrimages, holy images, and the relics of saints. The most cherished relics of all were those associated with Christ and the Virgin Mary. In its emphasis on the supernatural powers of material objects, popular belief carried a residue from long-ago days of pagan magic.

The great shortcoming of the high medieval Church was not gross corruption but rather a creeping complacency that resulted sometimes in a shallow, mechanical attitude toward the Christian religious life and an obsession with ecclesiastical property.

The Church played a vital role in the operation of tenth- and early-eleventh-century society, but it was usually subordinate to the lay ruling class.

Eleventh century bishops were inclined to regard themselves as a brotherhood of spiritual leaders, exercising much local autonomy and wide powers of jurisdiction, under a papacy that guided them only very gently from a respectful distance.

From the lay standpoint it was an effective administrative tool, but from the spiritual standpoint it was sometimes inadequate and even corrupt.

Monasteries all too frequently ignored the strict Benedictine Rule and some priests had concubines, and many had wives.

Lay lords often sold bishoprics and abbacies to unworthy, self-seeking churchmen, who then recouped the purchase price by exploiting their tenants and subordinates. This commerce was known as simony.

In general reformers fell into two groups:

One consisted of moderates who sought to eliminate simony, enforce clerical celibacy, and improve the moral caliber of churchmen, but without challenging the Church's traditional collaboration with kings and princes.

The second group was much more radical, its goal being to demolish the tradition of the lay control and to rebuild society on the pattern of the papal monarchy theory.

During the twelfth century, the papacy lost much of its former zealous reform spirit as it evolved into a huge, complex administrative institution.

The Franciscans and the Dominicans emerged in the 13th century, a more compassionate and effective response to heresy than the inquisition (the Roman inquisition represented the medieval church at its most repressive).

The waning of papal authority stemmed from an ever-widening gulf between papal government and the spiritual thirst of ordinary Christians combined with the hostility to Catholic internationalism on the part of increasingly powerful centralized kingdoms such as England and France.

Looking at the high medieval Church from the broadest possible perspective we see a religious institution with a cohesion, independence, and political leverage unmatched in all history.

The impact of medieval Christianity on our modern world is too pervasive and complex to be precisely measured. But it may be more than coincidence that the civilization that has transformed the globe emerged from a society that possessed, in the words of Sir Richard Southern, "the most elaborate and thoroughly integrated system of religious thought and practice the world has ever known."

Everything you said here is true.  However, you also can't ignore the deep richness of medieval Catholicism that gave a significant and detailed spiritual life to the average commoner.  There was tremendous pushback against the Reformation because it destroyed both a great deal of the social welfare aspects of the Church, and because it wiped out an enormous amount of religious life's color and vibrancy. It's hard to imagine today how it would have looked like when a group of theocratic intellectuals stripped your local cathedral of icons and saints and sacraments and rituals that seemed immemorial.

Intellectually, I'm more pro-reformation than anti. But I can certainly feel a lot of sympathy with just how devastating it must have been for the average believer.