Quote from: Krazz on December 13, 2022, 05:55:46 AM
Stirrups are an important invention that didn't happen until well into the iron age. Plus, wild horses were far too small and weak to take an adult male rider, which is why chariots were initially used. Horse riding may have begun with children, moving on to women and then men as a means of transport, until selective breeding allowed a fully-armoured man to ride one into battle. One possibility of the legends of the Amazons is that there may have been female cavalry units before it was viable for men.

That Amazon theory sounds like an exciting vein to mine both for fiction and gaming. Do you have pointers to a more expansive version.

Osprey books are always an excellent visual reference.


I've used GURPS setting books more with other systems than with GURPS itself, they are usually well-researched and packed with detail.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 13, 2022, 11:42:17 AM

Quote from: Krazz on December 13, 2022, 05:55:46 AM
Stirrups are an important invention that didn't happen until well into the iron age. Plus, wild horses were far too small and weak to take an adult male rider, which is why chariots were initially used. Horse riding may have begun with children, moving on to women and then men as a means of transport, until selective breeding allowed a fully-armoured man to ride one into battle. One possibility of the legends of the Amazons is that there may have been female cavalry units before it was viable for men.

That Amazon theory sounds like an exciting vein to mine both for fiction and gaming. Do you have pointers to a more expansive version.

No, and I can't even find where I found the idea originally, unfortunately. In looking, I did find this video related to the introduction of cavalry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uUk5WGAydI&ab_channel=Lindybeige. According to that, I was wrong about stirrups being important.

Quote from: Vile Traveller on December 13, 2022, 11:45:11 AM
Osprey books are always an excellent visual reference.

Nice. That one is excellent. Maybe I should get myself a copy. 
Yes, I have used Osprey quite extensively here.

Quote from: Krazz on December 13, 2022, 12:13:51 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 13, 2022, 11:42:17 AM

Quote from: Krazz on December 13, 2022, 05:55:46 AM
Stirrups are an important invention that didn't happen until well into the iron age. Plus, wild horses were far too small and weak to take an adult male rider, which is why chariots were initially used. Horse riding may have begun with children, moving on to women and then men as a means of transport, until selective breeding allowed a fully-armoured man to ride one into battle. One possibility of the legends of the Amazons is that there may have been female cavalry units before it was viable for men.

That Amazon theory sounds like an exciting vein to mine both for fiction and gaming. Do you have pointers to a more expansive version.

No, and I can't even find where I found the idea originally, unfortunately. In looking, I did find this video related to the introduction of cavalry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uUk5WGAydI&ab_channel=Lindybeige. According to that, I was wrong about stirrups being important.

That happens with Amazon materials for some reason. I keep looking for a documentary tying a handful of steppe burials of women with war gear and horses to the legends of Amazons and then to people of modern Mongolia (including rare births of genetic throwbacks of blonde, blue-eyed girls). I want to rewatch it (saw it sometime a decade ago) to mine for my stories of the lost daughter of the Amazons, but can't find it.

Quote from: Vile Traveller on December 13, 2022, 11:45:11 AM
Osprey books are always an excellent visual reference.


I've used GURPS setting books more with other systems than with GURPS itself, they are usually well-researched and packed with detail.

I love Osprey books for quick visuals and enough details for verisimilitude.  As for GURPS, if you go back to the boxed versions, that was always a goal of GURPS sourcebooks.

BTW, I use Pinterest as a way to create inspiration boards: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/westtim7/sundaland-rpg-inspiration-board/

Quote from: Trond on December 13, 2022, 01:07:53 AM

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 13, 2022, 12:03:47 AM

Quote from: Trond on December 08, 2022, 07:16:01 PM
It's possible that more limited horseback riding was done earlier like he suggests. Horseback riding is actually a nuts thing to do, until you've seen that it can be done. I would not be surprised if it started as a "dare" or similar to bull leaping.

He does admit he goes a bit earlier than he believes it really occurred in his books for dramatic reasons. He also seems to think there was an extended period of "useful for herding" riding before any warfare riding.  With the early existence of various chariots and warcarts, I suspect there is some piece of tech we're not realizing was vital to cavalry, which seems to only show up in the Iron Age.

A proper saddle some say, or the horse bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually horse breeding that had to progress to a certain level. Also; strangely, some of the earliest depictions in both Egypt and Mesopotamia show riders sitting far back towards the rump of the horse (though some of them might be donkeys, others are definitely horses).

Greetings!

Trond my friend!

Yes, warhorses are a fascinating subject. The various Steppe peoples mastering horses and using them in warfare before anyone else is a certainty. I also think that historical research shows a picture where non-Steppe nations--the civilized kingdoms and empires, the city0states and so on--*didn't* actually embrace warhorses quickly, or in many cases, at all. Even when they considered doing so, embracing such customs evidently could take dozens of years, or even centuries to accomplish.

I'm reminded of the early Han Empire, of China. The Steppe tribes had warhorses for many centuries, and is the chief reason for the Steppe people's fearsome advantages over many civilized kingdoms, including the Han Empire. The Han Empire eventually sent a massive army of several hundred thousand troops to march *thousands of miles away* from the empire's borders, deep into Central Asia to fight a ferocious war in order to gain "The Heavenly Horses".

Eventually, the Steppe Tribes in that area gave the Han Empire 50,000 or a 100,000 of their gorgeous nd mighty steeds in tribute--and as a kind of alliance. The Han Empire then used these horses, along with special knowledge nd training, and worked on building up their own new, Steppe-modelled Cavalry troops, which allowed them to eventually break the power of the Steppe barbarians. (At least for awhile; other challenges and problems would develop with successive emperors). Nonetheless, the Han Empire forged a powerful cavalry force that could defeat the mighty Steppe tribes in war.

There were several foundational problems that faced the ancient Chinese. Firstly, the horses bred and raised natively throughout China were small, and were simply not the same kind of fierce nd strong horses that the Steppe barbarians possessed. No amount of training could--or would change that fact. Yes, the ancient Chinese had tried, many times, over many years, and had always been met with failure. The Chinese horses were smaller, weak, had less endurance, and simply did not have the warlike temperament that the Steppe horses had. Secondly, the natural grasses and horse-feed available to the Chinese was again--inadequate. Yes, even the horse-feed in civilized ancient China was different from--and inferior to--the horse-feed that the Steppe barbarians raised their horses with. Thirdly, again, after many years of research and investigation--and losing hundreds of thousands of troops being slaughtered by the Steppe barbarians in battle--the Han Emperor's wise men had discovered that besides the other problems--the actual soil itself in China was poor for feeding and nourishing the "Heavenly Horses". The "Heavenly Horses" didn't like anything the Chinese horse-masters and cavalry troops fed them, again, regardless of their sincere efforts. Captured Steppe horses eventually grew weak, lazy, and died. Fourthly, Cavalry Doctrine, Training, and Organization. This subset of problems were institutional, and required Imperial Authority to show favour and patronage to forming a new Cavalry Force, funding it, training it, and having the troops well-trained, and well-led by fierce Horse generals.

Eventually, the "Heavenly Horses" were brought back safely to the Han Empire. But also, barbarian horsemasters, horse-breeders, and instructors. In addition, entire caravans of the favoured steppe-grasses and other feed mixtures were brought to the empire, and stored. This was accompanied by caravans of native Steppe soil, as well as gardeners and herdsmen. The Han Empire created special pastures and formed areas to actually sustain--and create--a kind of soil from which to grow a variety of grasses and horsefeeds that were acceptable to the mighty Steppe horses. THEN, a proper breeding program was instituted and strictly followed and supervised by Imperial Officers. This stuff was *State Secret* level of importance, of the highest national security in importance. The emperor made any tampering or betrayal punishable by torture and death.

The Han Empire needed to basically raise a giant system of horse farms that could sustain a force of 500,000 "Heavenly Horses". The Han Empire did all of this, formed a powerful cavalry army, to go along with several traditional Infantry armies, and fought a savage and ruthless campaign against the Xiong-Nu tribes, and eventually broke their power over the people of China. This epic achievement allowed the Han Empire--The Tang Empire--to settle, and fortify the "Great Corridor". The "Great Corridor" is a fairly narrow but hundreds of miles long area of land that cuts through the Steppes and deserts in the North-West of China, connecting China to Central Asia, and is a main terminus point for the Silk Road traveling from all lands beyond China to the West--Persia, India, Russia, Scandinavia, Europe, and the Mediterranean.

This epic, victorious war really put the Tang Empire on the map, and allowed the Han Empire to flourish and grow strong and prosperous for centuries.

It definitely provides insight into the great struggles between the nomadic tribes of the Steppes, and the civilized kingdoms, and the many facets and problems that the Tang Empire had to go through and solve simply to possess enough of the right kind of horses to even have a competitive cavalry force that could give the Tang Empire a fighting chance against the mighty Steppe tribes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 08, 2022, 02:08:03 PM

Quote from: Trond on December 08, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
One quick note: horseback riding is NOT common. Horses are used for pulling carts and chariots.
So the riding skill should be translated as "charioteering".
The Hatti are considered especially skilled charioteers.

There is a UK fantasy author, Dan Davis, writing a fantasy series in late Neo-lithic/Early Bronze Age. He's got several good videos on what we know about early horse domestication, including one about early horse riding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMHqp0M0T4Q

I took some inspiration from it for the first short story I published at No More Than 51 Bad Stories.

Greetings!

I also highly recommend Dan Davis. His books, his videos are interesting, and very enjoyable. Dan Davis embraces some solid scholarship and research.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I just found out that Egypt definitely had horseback riders in their army by the 1300s BC, but even then it was mostly or only as fast messengers (in addition to chariots, which had been in use for quite some time already). My setting is loosely based around (very roughly) 1500-1400 BC, while filling some gaps with info from later periods. Not that historical accuracy is the prime concern, but I am using history of a relatively under-utilized period as inspiration here, so horses were used mostly for pulling wagons or chariots.

One thing I'm thinking a bit about now (though I'll be traveling soon) is the RUNES of Runequest. I think I will start with symbols for the gods: maybe a bull's head for Diktaios, and double axe for Potnia.

As a related note, Minoans used both hieroglyphs as well as Linear A, and later probably Linear B though this was mostly Mycenaeans. But I like the simplicity of Linear B for game use. I can see images here that look a bit like the head of a bull (towards lower right) and a double axe (far upper left):

I have been brainstorming this setting a bit more. Feel free to use.

In the mountains of Ekhinira the people are largely primitive shepherds, some also owning plots of farmland. These are proud people, often hospitable but easily offended, and fickle in their allegiance to the cities. They generally live in small stone huts, and are usually lightly armed (bronze daggers and axes are common). Many of these can be good sources of tales and fables of the creatures, spirits, and ghosts of the hills.

I'm just seeing this thread now. I had a hankering for something like this myself, then read a few reviews of an Osprey RPG called Jackals that looks interesting. I'd probably tinker with its setting myself, but the adventuring conceit seems like it might easily transfer to homebrewed Ancients settings.