Impressive scholarly work there. You must be aware of Dr. Cline's book about the Bronze Age collapse. I find it a fascinating read. Was considering to create a campaign around it someday.

Quote from: blackstone on December 08, 2022, 07:45:01 AM
Impressive scholarly work there. You must be aware of Dr. Cline's book about the Bronze Age collapse. I find it a fascinating read. Was considering to create a campaign around it someday.

Oh yes that's an interesting topic that I have looked into, I have to read that book though. Right now I'm flipping through the Iliad and Odyssey again (it's been a long time) to see if I can find some useful mythical bits there.

One quick note: horseback riding is NOT common. Horses are used for pulling carts and chariots.
So the riding skill should be translated as "charioteering".
The Hatti are considered especially skilled charioteers.

Quote from: Trond on December 08, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
One quick note: horseback riding is NOT common. Horses are used for pulling carts and chariots.
So the riding skill should be translated as "charioteering".
The Hatti are considered especially skilled charioteers.

There is a UK fantasy author, Dan Davis, writing a fantasy series in late Neo-lithic/Early Bronze Age. He's got several good videos on what we know about early horse domestication, including one about early horse riding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMHqp0M0T4Q

I took some inspiration from it for the first short story I published at No More Than 51 Bad Stories.

Also, on chariots, how are you portraying them as being used in warfare? I know this is a bit of a continuous issue.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 08, 2022, 02:09:02 PM
Also, on chariots, how are you portraying them as being used in warfare? I know this is a bit of a continuous issue.

Good question! I have an issue of Ancient Warfare on this somewhere.
Although there might be a large scale battle in there, I don't think it will be that much of it. We'll see. From what I remember in the Iliad, high ranking warriors  seem to come storming in on chariots, probably breaking up battle formation by threatening to trample them, and then the warriors often hop off and fight. I bet all sorts of situations would happen in real life; trampling people, throwing javelins from the chariot or shooting arrows, as well as highly armored warriors simply being transported into the battlefield.

My setting features elephants and water buffalo as the main working animals as there are no horses.

They pose their own unique challenges. They can't be domesticated so they need to be captured and trained and it can take decades before elephants are mature enough to take part in battle.

Quoting some articles I found about war elephants:

QuoteTo sum up: elephants were powerful, but by no means unstoppable weapons in war. While a well-deployed corps of war elephants could pose a very tough tactical problem to an enemy army, well-trained infantry could overcome elephants at a fraction of the logistic and economic cost. Elephants remained in long-term use as weapons where they were both cheaper, but also crucially where their display reinforced the power and prestige of warrior-aristocrats and especially kings.

Since the technology level of my setting is roughly that of the Bronze age 'well-trained infantry' is not a common thing, many armies usually consisting of part timers led by a handful of full time warriors. Also the terrain of the area consists of a lot of jungles, forests, swamps and savannah which might better suit elephants.

https://sundaland-rpg-setting.blogspot.com/2020/12/shout-out-war-elephants.html

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 08, 2022, 02:08:03 PM

Quote from: Trond on December 08, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
One quick note: horseback riding is NOT common. Horses are used for pulling carts and chariots.
So the riding skill should be translated as "charioteering".
The Hatti are considered especially skilled charioteers.

There is a UK fantasy author, Dan Davis, writing a fantasy series in late Neo-lithic/Early Bronze Age. He's got several good videos on what we know about early horse domestication, including one about early horse riding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMHqp0M0T4Q

I took some inspiration from it for the first short story I published at No More Than 51 Bad Stories.

Couple of random thoughts: I do find it very odd that Mesopotamians and Egyptians don't depict riding until the 800s BC if there were supposedly skilled mounted warriors around on the steppes for thousands of years before that. How did they keep them out?

It's possible that more limited horseback riding was done earlier like he suggests. Horseback riding is actually a nuts thing to do, until you've seen that it can be done. I would not be surprised if it started as a "dare" or similar to bull leaping.

Also: in Norway we have Sami (Lapps) who have long traditions with reindeer herding, but never riding them. In central Asia reindeer herders do ride them. Not sure if they ever fought while riding reindeer though.

So maybe horseback riding was known in one area but not another, but the moment it was turned into an effective weapon it probably spread pretty fast.

(all of this also makes me wonder about statements that zebras can't possibly be ridden, maybe if they just underwent all the gradual habituation and  breeding of horses they could have been. The culture of doing so just never spread until the horse was already available)

Quote from: TimothyWestwind on December 08, 2022, 04:56:44 PM
My setting features elephants and water buffalo as the main working animals as there are no horses.

They pose their own unique challenges. They can't be domesticated so they need to be captured and trained and it can take decades before elephants are mature enough to take part in battle.

Quoting some articles I found about war elephants:

QuoteTo sum up: elephants were powerful, but by no means unstoppable weapons in war. While a well-deployed corps of war elephants could pose a very tough tactical problem to an enemy army, well-trained infantry could overcome elephants at a fraction of the logistic and economic cost. Elephants remained in long-term use as weapons where they were both cheaper, but also crucially where their display reinforced the power and prestige of warrior-aristocrats and especially kings.

Since the technology level of my setting is roughly that of the Bronze age 'well-trained infantry' is not a common thing, many armies usually consisting of part timers led by a handful of full time warriors. Also the terrain of the area consists of a lot of jungles, forests, swamps and savannah which might better suit elephants.

https://sundaland-rpg-setting.blogspot.com/2020/12/shout-out-war-elephants.html

BTW war elephants are one of those cool things about a setting in the Hellenistic age (also India of course).

Religious sanctuaries are often placed on mountain peaks.

Oracles are a big thing in this setting, and I imagine that some such sanctuaries were the dwellings of oracles with messages from gods.
Offerings of wine, good food, magic items, or other resources for the sanctuary would probably be expected.

Quote from: Trond on December 08, 2022, 07:16:01 PM
It's possible that more limited horseback riding was done earlier like he suggests. Horseback riding is actually a nuts thing to do, until you've seen that it can be done. I would not be surprised if it started as a "dare" or similar to bull leaping.

He does admit he goes a bit earlier than he believes it really occurred in his books for dramatic reasons. He also seems to think there was an extended period of "useful for herding" riding before any warfare riding.  With the early existence of various chariots and warcarts, I suspect there is some piece of tech we're not realizing was vital to cavalry, which seems to only show up in the Iron Age.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 13, 2022, 12:03:47 AM

Quote from: Trond on December 08, 2022, 07:16:01 PM
It's possible that more limited horseback riding was done earlier like he suggests. Horseback riding is actually a nuts thing to do, until you've seen that it can be done. I would not be surprised if it started as a "dare" or similar to bull leaping.

He does admit he goes a bit earlier than he believes it really occurred in his books for dramatic reasons. He also seems to think there was an extended period of "useful for herding" riding before any warfare riding.  With the early existence of various chariots and warcarts, I suspect there is some piece of tech we're not realizing was vital to cavalry, which seems to only show up in the Iron Age.

A proper saddle some say, or the horse bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually horse breeding that had to progress to a certain level. Also; strangely, some of the earliest depictions in both Egypt and Mesopotamia show riders sitting far back towards the rump of the horse (though some of them might be donkeys, others are definitely horses). 

Stirrups are an important invention that didn't happen until well into the iron age. Plus, wild horses were far too small and weak to take an adult male rider, which is why chariots were initially used. Horse riding may have begun with children, moving on to women and then men as a means of transport, until selective breeding allowed a fully-armoured man to ride one into battle. One possibility of the legends of the Amazons is that there may have been female cavalry units before it was viable for men.

I wonder if sitting on an animal was seen as slightly crazy/foolhardy and not entirely dignified for a while (i.e. in the Bronze Age). And as a side question; I wonder who is the first ruler/king to appear depicted on horseback? The first I can think of is Alexander the Great.

Quote from: Trond on December 13, 2022, 01:07:53 AM
A proper saddle some say, or the horse bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually horse breeding that had to progress to a certain level. Also; strangely, some of the earliest depictions in both Egypt and Mesopotamia show riders sitting far back towards the rump of the horse (though some of them might be donkeys, others are definitely horses).

He has an entire other video just on breeding and possible origin of the larger modern horse. It was pretty interesting.