Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 05:29:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
I'd add a note about comedy. S'mon mentioned judging Poul Anderson's _The High Crusade_ was fine as comedy -- but he also cited harem anime fantasies as an example of rubbing the wrong way. While I haven't seen any of them, I suspect harem anime fantasies are also pitched as comedy.

I said harem anime fell into the the 'these people aren't really people' category - "Harem anime fantasies where the hyper-competent female characters all revolve around a singularly un-magnetic, unprepossessing male lead, for instance" - the female characters only exist to service the male fantasy. Or vice versa, in the Reverse Harem Animes a female friend of mine likes. That's not a problem with the Englishmen in The High Crusade. It would be an issue for their alien enemies, if it were a serious book. I read a Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosigan (sp?) SF book where the enemy fit exactly that trope; they seemed entirely un-proactive, barely reactive, existing only for the hero to show off his awesomeness. And that was supposed to be a non-comedy.

I didn't say the harem anime rubbed me up the wrong way, though. I tried to watch one called something like DxD and it bored me, but it didn't annoy me. 

Got it. Sorry for misrepresenting you there.

Trying to keep this on RPGs, I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.


The better games rise above that, of course -- especially with a good GM. I liked SHARK's description of his game. I could see a lot of parallels to my own viking game.

wtf happened to "TLDR"? Or the more polite, "In Summation"?

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 05:29:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
I'd add a note about comedy. S'mon mentioned judging Poul Anderson's _The High Crusade_ was fine as comedy -- but he also cited harem anime fantasies as an example of rubbing the wrong way. While I haven't seen any of them, I suspect harem anime fantasies are also pitched as comedy.

I said harem anime fell into the the 'these people aren't really people' category - "Harem anime fantasies where the hyper-competent female characters all revolve around a singularly un-magnetic, unprepossessing male lead, for instance" - the female characters only exist to service the male fantasy. Or vice versa, in the Reverse Harem Animes a female friend of mine likes. That's not a problem with the Englishmen in The High Crusade. It would be an issue for their alien enemies, if it were a serious book. I read a Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosigan (sp?) SF book where the enemy fit exactly that trope; they seemed entirely un-proactive, barely reactive, existing only for the hero to show off his awesomeness. And that was supposed to be a non-comedy.

I didn't say the harem anime rubbed me up the wrong way, though. I tried to watch one called something like DxD and it bored me, but it didn't annoy me. 

Got it. Sorry for misrepresenting you there.

Trying to keep this on RPGs, I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.


The better games rise above that, of course -- especially with a good GM. I liked SHARK's description of his game. I could see a lot of parallels to my own viking game.

Greetings!

Good to hear, Jhkim. Definitely some parallels! I'm glad you like the campaign I describe.

As for monsters siting in a room for the players to encounter them--*Laughing*--Yeah, that does seem silly, doesn't it? I have random creatures and such encountering the players, of course, but most opponents--let alone actual villains--are definitely tied into some kind of conflict or relationship, whether racial, religious, or political. Dungeons, of course, have their own ecology and inhabitants, though they aren't just sitting there, watching TV.

With romantic characters, yeah, that whole "Dependent" thing--some kind of Flaw, or drawback, right? *Laughing* That wouldn't fly either, oh, geesus, since I was probably in high school. With the women especially--but even the men, providing the "romantic interest" isn't just a strumpet or playboy at a party--I'd get barraged with a thousand questions, and definite expectations for me to deliver. It helps that I emphasize verisimilitude throughout the campaign, and I'm also quite detailed in providing knowledge about many different characters that are in their lives--from family and relatives, to long-time friends, and even more recently met friends or newcomers.

I've found that while such an approach does make more demands on my own time and effort, it all pays off well through increasing verisimilitude and immersion--as well as surprisingly providing literally trainloads of adventure hooks, motivations, secrets, and all that. It all contributes to a kind of process after awhile that writes the campaign on its own, with increasingly *less* of a need for me to create stuff whole-cloth. Pundit has also discussed this kind of dynamic, where the campaign becomes so detailed and internally consistent, that it is almost like being on auto-pilot. It only requires periodic tune-ups and occasional extra-effort interventions from the DM, whenever something really different or unusual occurs, for example.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd. 

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 27, 2023, 07:08:05 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 27, 2023, 04:18:20 PM
There's always been that school of creative thought which specializes in trying to imagine "what Set of Extremely Implausible Circumstances X-Y-Z would make Behaviour Patterns A/B/C justified/sensible/practical?" The entire appeal of the Imperium of Man is that literally everything else in the galaxy is orders of magnitude worse.

It's a bit of an aside, but the Leagues of Votann, as currently written, sort of undercut that. I'm sure GW will change that soon enough.

The Votann are interesting, because they have no real need to fight the Imperium.  If the Imperium went against their economic interests, they would, without a doubt, but existing mostly on the edge of the Galactic Core means they don't have a lot of potential conflict.  The Votann do look to be utterly ruthless though when they want to be.

I could see things get so bad that an Imperium/Aeldari/Votann/Tau alliance forms to fight off the Chaos hordes and the Tyranids.

Women like anti-heroes, the "bad boys" give them cyclical buyer's remorse after every "nice guy" fails to palate cleanse

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:41:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd. 

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* Ah, yes. That male Player sounds like a jackass. However, I can imagine my male players especially would howl in glee, knowing that any NPC woman he became involved with in my campaign--oh yeah. The drama and crazy train would be *EPIC* In a weird way, I would love having some smug troglodyte like that as a Player in my campaign. The comedy relief of watching his trainwreck relationships with women characters would provide roaring entertainment for all of my other players, for sure!

Oh, yes. And your female Player that enjoyed using him and exploiting him for attention, and making him her simping beta orbiter...ahh, yes. *CLASSIC*!! Textbook female behavior on display! You must have been beside yourself howling in laughter, my friend!

You know I would have!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:41:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd. 

I dunno how you got a soft-play Andrew Tate wannabe in your group, but women don't take grovelling from wankers larping at chivalry.

She probably feels that if this clown is willing to waste his energy, a real man worth her time will notice her in due course.

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 04, 2023, 12:13:29 PM

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:41:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd. 

I dunno how you got a soft-play Andrew Tate wannabe in your group, but women don't take grovelling from wankers larping at chivalry.

She probably feels that if this clown is willing to waste his energy, a real man worth her time will notice her in due course.

Greetings!

"A soft-play Andrew Tate wannabe in your group"--*LAUGHING*

Awesome, Dispotatic254!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think, to put it simply, bad boys get things done.  Ladies like that.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on March 05, 2023, 09:43:00 PM
I think, to put it simply, bad boys get things done.  Ladies like that.

Greetings!

Hi there, Cathode Ray! Yeah, I can definitely see that basic principle in action. The women really love being around adventurous, bold men that, as you say, "Get Things Done!". Those men that are lacking in confidence, tending towards being shy, unsure of themselves, socially restrained, or worrying too much about how others around them will think--certainly seem to be less popular choices for many women.

In contrast, the bold, confident, even violent-tempered men that are strong, often loud and direct, typically not paying too much concern to what others think--and instead prefer to take action, and exhorting other men to join them in such bold and often dangerous actions--yeah, the women love men like that. My women players flock to them like Bees going after Honey!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

Can you imagine creating an NPC that is like a version of Andrew Tate? *LAUGHING* Just imagine how the girls would react!

I can just hear all of the howling now!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK