Greetings!

Well, in the Taking Prisoners? thread, I made a comment about one of my campaigns. The Player Characters are one male, and four females. The adventuring group had progressed in the campaign, clearing two dungeons, fighting animals and monsters, and defending their homeland community--nd neighboring communities--from various enemy barbarian tribes. The player character's homeland was more or less also a tribal barbarian society, though gradually becoming more medieval, more sophisticated government bureaucracy, better legal odes, a High Church environment, and a more advanced and sophisticated economy. The player's homeland culture had even developed some orders of knights, as well as having temple-sponsored Paladins. Noble tournaments were a growing tradition, as well as increasingly profitable regional faires, and other kinds of diverse entertainment. Scholarship is growing, and professional schooling is also growing in popularity and is more organized. Part of the advancing economy is an increase in crafting and professional specialization, a well as embracing new ideas, and exchanges of knowledge and learning amongst other, foreign kingdoms and realms. Their particular Danevar Tribe has grown into developing an official Kingdom, having court nobles, and a monarchy that is now several generations old. The kingdom is on it's fourth descended King. The kingdom faces various challenges and threats, but is increasingly unified, organized, and prosperous.

The adventuring group becomes involved with repelling some barbarian raiders. These particular barbarian raiders are similar to barbarian tribal warbands that have fought against the Danevar tribes for several generations now, though they are also different. These particular barbarian raiders are Vandar barbarians, who come from the Vandar lands across the sea. Thus, these Vandar barbarians come by the sea--rowing and sailing their great Dragonships. The Vandar barbarians are tall, mighty giants, pale of skin and often having pale, blonde hair the colour of platinum or golden wheat. The adventuring group is defeated in battle after hard and fierce fighting. The Vandar barbarians decide to take the adventuring group captive, and thus, they are taken away to the Dragonships and carried to the cold, Vandar lands as war booty.

I had initially expected that after surviving being taken as war booty and made slaves, that the adventuring group would organize some kind of escape relatively soon, and make their way into the strange and mysterious wilderness. No doubt, the adventuring group would struggle to survive in the vast wilderness, fighting monsters and wild animals, as well as being acquainted with survival skills and lore in a very harsh and cold forest environment. I also guessed that they would eventually learn lore, make friends with different people and creatures, and make their way overland, escaping from the Vandar lands, and gradually arriving in a new adventuring area. Alternatively, I also made some plans for a more ea-based way of escape, reasoning that the adventuring group would either steal a Dragonship, or somehow craft their own ship, and set sail for returning to their Alben homeland by way of the great sea. I also anticipated some sea-going naval adventures, discovering or landing on some forsaken and monster-filled islands, fighting Vandar raiders at sea, perhaps also fighting some crazy sea monsters, and more.

Such adventures, however, were not to be. At least not in the ways directly that I had imagined, and anticipated.

Instead, the player characters--one guy and four women--proceeded to endure their captivity and new lives as slaves to their Vandar masters. Several gaming sessions were devoted to their new, rugged and brutal lives as slaves, being regularly plundered as booty, occasionally tortured, and routinely humiliated and used in hard labour in dangerous, harsh conditions. Admittedly, the prospect of escape from such a harsh environment and a brutal, foreign and barbarian culture was an imposing endeavor. They didn't speak the Vandar language, the barbarian culture was different, they had no friends, and even if they managed to escape their Vandar masters immediate grasp, where would they go? A forbidding land of epic mountains, dark, ancient forests shrouded in fog and icy mists, and teeming with strange, dangerous monsters awaited them outside the gates of their prison-home, Haedenburg. Haedenburg was a fortified Vandar town, built on a group of hills overlooking a deep and shimmering fiord. The great fiord was flanked by high mountains and sheer cliffs, crusted with glittering ice. Out in the deep, blue, icy cold waters, majestic whales leaped through the waters and made eerie, haunting cries. Flocks of large chattering sea-gulls cried in the skies about them. Out more in the nearby forests, large flocks of black ravens cawed at them frequently, and often seemed to mock them, even while always watching them with their malevolent gaze. Thus, any kind of escape would surely be difficult and very dangerous, and forbidding. I didn't think that pursuing such a plan of escape would be easy. To hope to successfully escape, the adventuring group would simply have to be smart, cunning, and ruthlessly determined. There was a possibility of success.

The adventuring party went from enduring their slavery and life of being booty and grinding, menial labourers, to actively embracing their new lives. The group members each made efforts to learn the Vandor language, as well as eagerly learning Vandar culture and lore. The women went from being terrified, enraged, and humiliated by their Vandar masters, to showing increasing interest and curiosity to learn the ways of the Vandar culture and people. The women began to actively and willingly seek out their Vandar masters for romantic episodes, and engaged them in deeper conversations. The male player, also began shifting from more passive resentment and indifference, to actively pursuing this Volva witch that had enslaved him as her plaything and concubine. Through more weeks and months, the group pursued and cultivated genuine friendships with others around them, with special attention paid to appeasing their Vandar masters, and gaining their approval, confidence, and trust. Labour was now done eagerly, with a drive for excellence and accomplishment. Gradually, their Vandar masters loosened their restrictions as slaves, and also began to reward them.

The adventuring group gained more rewards and better treatment. Strangely, as they prospered and gained in esteem from their Vandar masters, they also gained enemies and rivals. Various other slaves often conspired against them. Some other Vandar barbarians--both men and women--came to embrace a cruel animosity towards them. More weeks and months went by, with increasingly complicated relationships, drama, and adventures amongst their new Vandar community. The adventuring group eventually earned more freedoms and trust, fighting for the Vandar, serving them, and performing their own deeds of loyalty, devotion, and courage. The adventuring group were eventually granted their freedom, and rewarded with armbands of loyalty. Then, they also served alongside their Vandar friends in battle, officially fighting enemy barbarian tribes, Goblins, evil Hags, as well as wild animals and monsters. The adventuring group had forged genuine romantic relationships with prominent and powerful Vandar warlords, as well as embracing friendships with other prominent and important members of the local community. By this time, several years in game-time had passed, and the adventuring group had steadily established an entirely new life at Haedenburg. The adventuring group were no longer slaves and concubines, booty to be tortured, abused, and humiliated. They were honoured, adopted members of the Vandar tribes, and of the community of Haedenburg.

After additional adventure and preparations, the Vandar gathered new warbands together, and assembled a powerful fleet of Dragonships for the upcoming raiding season. The Vandar barbarians would be returning to the shores of Alben. More battle, more booty, and more glory awaited them. The Vandar raiders landed on the Alben shores, and as battles and adventures developed, three members of the adventuring group--a Paladin, a Cleric, and a Barbarian--had chosen to depart from their old group members as well as their new Vandar friends. Seeing their Alben homeland had inspired them with a new change in the thread of their lives, and they had determined that they would return to their homelands, and to their old lives. This episode was especially dramatic, and more than a few tears flowed, as did an angry and passionate debate. The conflict ended though, as the adventuring group had resigned themselves to the departure of their beloved friends and companions. They had forged a new life amongst the Vandar at Haedenburg, with new friends, new lovers, and a new destiny.

I was admittedly surprised that the players--most especially the women--had been so capable of overlooking the brutality, the torture, the plundering, the humiliation--and to embrace their enemies and oppressors as lovers, companions, and friends. Even while the adventuring group served the Vandar, and engaged in battles and warfare and many adventures and struggles, families were being born, and built, and loved. The group had ultimately shown love, loyalty, devotion, and courage, and had been embraced by the Vandar, and even honoured. the Vandar's tribal drums had greeted them, while the Vandar war horns welcomed them into the embrace of a savage world of blood, fire, and steel. The campaign had begun firmly placed within a significantly different milieu, and through the player character's choices and actions, the campaign had transformed into a more barbaric, dark ages milieu, embracing some similar themes, but also distinctly different themes from the earlier, more medieval campaign theme. Their new family relationships, their children, their enemies and rivals, as well as their friends, had all changed. The campaign geography, climate, environment, as well as the social and political landscape, all now had a different texture entirely.

I was also intrigued by how the players had purposefully plotted and determined to go from the more or less bottom of the social hierarchy, to the top. It was like mastering the new social and cultural environment itself was a kind of puzzle-dungeon adventure for them. I, of course, had to change gears thematically, and adjust to a very different social and cultural environment. The players developed their new relationships with an extra zeal for such a harsh, barbaric environment. The laws, the rules, the codes o life, all seemed more primal, and exhilarating. Everything was unpredictable and dangerous. The weather. The climate. The savage, prehistoric, Megalithic animals. The religious and spiritual environment. The mystical ceremonies and strange rituals. The constant inner tribal dramas and social conflicts with numerous other members of the tribal community. The ever-present anticipation that every new game session, every new episode, might be their character's last. The players reveled in the constant plotting, the scheming, the games and ploys of social climbing and competition for social one-upmanship amongst their rivals. the frequent blood feuds and duels of swords or of the mind with hated rivals. The constant striving for glory, for honour, pushed, inspired, and drove the player characters on to ever more terrifying adventures and deeds of valour and loyalty. It has been a very inspiring and awesome campaign!

Circling back to my opening question, however, it also amazes me how even within the context of the game, strange and intriguing  psychological dynamics have often emerged. The male player pursued forging a relationship that was advantageous, socially, but also with an eye towards genuine compatibility. Actual considerations of her--the Volva witch's--particular social status or wealth typically seemed unimportant to the male player. The women players, however, none the less through much giggling as well as more serious emotional attention, actively pursued and cultivated romantic relationships with the most prominent, most violent and ruthless characters within their social reach--in this case, two of the women characters pursued developing relationships with Jarl warlords, violent and ruthless men at almost the very top of the social hierarchy. With the female character playing a barbarian also developing a relationship with a prominent warrior and blacksmith. While the warrior blacksmith was not a Jarl like the others, he is none the less wealthy, prosperous, and broadly socially respected, having considerable status. The woman player playing a mystical Witch character, she embraced a romantic relationship with a prominent and fierce warrior, a lieutenant or Thane and close friend of the two more prominent warrior Jarls. In addition, though, she has also cultivated a solid friendship with the Volva Witch, and also amongst the Vandar Witches of her tribal circle.

Interestingly, the male player character, perhaps romantic competition for his Vandar Volva Witch wasn't as sharp. Mystical Witches can be strange and eccentric, after all. Still, though, his socialization with her is nothing like the constant competition and possessiveness of the women in their romantic relationships. The women players even would jump on sometimes seemingly innocuous statements or behaviors by other women around their favoured lovers, and interpreting them as a wicked scheme to outdo them in gaining favour or access to their fierce barbarian masters and lovers. It was eye-opening and even amusing, to see how ruthless and bloodthirsty the women players could be--especially against other women rivals and enemies that they hated with fiery passion.

I'm also amused that the women players all have Chaotic or Neutral alignments, except for the one woman playing a Paladin. She is, of course, Lawful Good. But damn, she can get crazy close to alignment violations and bloodthirsty sins of revenge and vengeance against her opponents, too! The female Paladin has typically acted with considerable endurance, patience, and long-suffering virtue in seeking to be humble and devout, and a good spiritual example of righteousness and kindness. But when the BS has gotten tallied too much, when the edge is there--and she has felt fully morally justified according to her faith by training at the devout temple--*BOOM*--out coms the swords and blood flows! Cunningly, when she felt that she could not herself morally justify whipping out her sword and running some wicked girl through, she resorted to mind-bogglingly shrewd social plays with other characters--obviously, primed and aimed at her Jarl paramour, or some friendly but loyal warrior lieutenant. They, then, themselves, would confront the enemy woman rival, and have her tortured and executed, or publicly humiliated and condemned into exile, just from two examples I can remember.

Orchestrating a woman rival being socially ostracized, being impoverished, being subjected to public humiliation--oh my god. These are some of the most preferred weapons. And of course, when the Paladin player was unwilling to kill a woman rival or enemy herself--the girlfriends all went crazy together devising plans to bring utter ruin and damnation to such an enemy woman. These strategy sessions can go on for an hour or more with the girls. I have to tell them to zip it up for now, so we can play! *Laughing* The women players can be very ruthless also against male enemy characters--unleashing or orchestrating lethal violence against them has typically been far easier of course.

It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

It has been an awesome and great campaign, and very entertaining, for sure!

Have you had women players go for the "Bad Boys"? Have you seen women engage in crazy scheming and ruthless machinations against their enemies or rivals?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK   

I think you provided a 'safe space' for a very common female fantasy. 

No, I've not seen this IMCs that I can recall. I probably don't provide sufficiently sexy bad boy NPCs. Certainly the female players tend to be more into sex and/or romance than the average male player, but I can't recall any real 'tame the bad boy' element. I think it's probably my fault as I can think of at least a couple players who'd likely go for that given the opportunity. My romantic interest male NPCs tend to be more Mr D'Arcy or Ser Jorah Mormont types. One female Goliath PC did hit on a Shadowfey Guardian NPC and they are now a close couple who adventure together, but he's not really a bad boy the way I play him. https://www.5esrd.com/database/creature/shadow-fey-guardian-3pp/ Another player plays a nymphomaniac tiefling, among countless tristes she has an ongoing affair with an NPC noble knight & war hero. Another plays a half orc barbarian who just shags the strongest human male warriors she can find.

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
Have you had women players go for the "Bad Boys"? Have you seen women engage in crazy scheming and ruthless machinations against their enemies or rivals?

I had two similar incidents in my vikings game.

I had a tough warlord visited with a dozen of his troops to the homestead of one of the PCs, in a show of force. Once there, he proposed to her. She was a famed prophetess who had just gotten known from their last adventures. He thought she would be an advantage for his battle. Rather than try to find a way out of it, she said "Hell, yeah, I'll marry you. But here are my terms and you better accept them because I'm a badass prophetess and you don't want to get on my bad side."

On the reverse side from the men, I was surprised when I introduced a forceful widow named Borgny the Sharp-Tongued, who was a bit of a black sheep in her noble family. As her nickname implied, she was famed for her temper. I hadn't expected her as a romantic interest. However, there was a PC who was a non-noble huscarl who had gotten a bunch of loot from adventures, and he decided to propose to her - which would be his way of joining the nobility. That made for a fun and argumentative courtship. So I think the "bad girl" is also a thing for male PCs.

Quote from: S'mon on February 25, 2023, 06:06:48 AM
I think you provided a 'safe space' for a very common female fantasy. 

No, I've not seen this IMCs that I can recall. I probably don't provide sufficiently sexy bad boy NPCs. Certainly the female players tend to be more into sex and/or romance than the average male player, but I can't recall any real 'tame the bad boy' element. I think it's probably my fault as I can think of at least a couple players who'd likely go for that given the opportunity. My romantic interest male NPCs tend to be more Mr D'Arcy or Ser Jorah Mormont types. One female Goliath PC did hit on a Shadowfey Guardian NPC and they are now a close couple who adventure together, but he's not really a bad boy the way I play him. https://www.5esrd.com/database/creature/shadow-fey-guardian-3pp/ Another player plays a nymphomaniac tiefling, among countless tristes she has an ongoing affair with an NPC noble knight & war hero. Another plays a half orc barbarian who just shags the strongest human male warriors she can find.

Greetings!

Hey S'mon! "A *safe space* for a very common female fantasy!" *LAUGHING* Nice! I love it. So funny, my friend! I had expected also the possibility that the Plyers would attempt some bod escape attempt in customary defiance and heroism--but the girls all resisted that temptation. They had determined that they needed to control their emotions, and to be practical. They needed to make sure they survived. Then, they started discussing--and then scheming--how they could really turn this situation round. They saw a few openings, and honed in on them ruthlessly. They'd point weaknesses out to each other, or speculate on other character's motivations--*Laughing*--that supplied me with so many easy plot hooks and character development, it amazes me also how the game sessions took on almost an ability to write themselves, so to speak. It made it easier for me to identify the personalities of many different NPC's in the environment, and play them with their own motivations, attitudes and behaviors. Such fun, too! Having some good players that can really get into their characters can really enhance a game.

Well, the girls would also then go from this "survival mode" to more and more really exercising their manipulation skills! Then, along the way, they also started to get to know different characters better, and they began to like the idea of their characters falling in love with different people. They recognized the social status differences, and also as how they were often viewed as being a kind of exotic, foreign treat--they began to get possessive, and jealous of the native Vandar women that were competing for the various male characters--the "Bad Boys". It was pretty shrewd to watch the girls embrace the Vandar culture--they hyped themselves on all the exotic coolness, all the savage Paganism, but then they also made sure to let various elements of them being foreigners show through, to highlight their "exotic chick" factor. They'd be extra sassy, or become extra intellectual, even philosophical! and all kinds of activities and events to make themselves just a bit more alluring to the Vandar. They also skillfully orchestrated a kind of leverage, incentivizing the Vandar to treat them better--as opposed to just always crushing them as worthless slaves. The women's abilities at being social and cultural chameleons was pretty impressive.

The player characters, of course, were foreigners, and kind of exotic, and appealing. They were *adventurers*, and did have different languages, culture, knowledge, and lore that were also interesting and intriguing to the Vandar. The player characters did, in fact, enjoy some kind of leverage and appeal. They made choices to make themselves even more appealing to embrace. Through time and events, them being given their freedom, and then honoured with armbands and actually being elevated in social status, we, that was huge, too. The players all recognized that in their circumstances, this situation could really build up to them having a pretty good life in Haedenburg with the Vandar. And of course, also savage and exciting. In between all of the soap-opera drama, there were excursions into the mist-shrouded forests, exploring ancient ruins, encountering weird Faerie creatures, demons, and different Norse-flavoured monsters and creatures. I also added in silly episodes where they saved drowning dogs, rescued some of the Vandar tribe's children from evil Goblins, they met a mysterious, talking wolf, and a mystical Tree that could communicate with them telepathically, and in their dreams. Then, there were the spiritual ceremonies with the bonfires, naked people dancing, weird chanting, antler women priestesses, animals being sacrificed to the Pagan gods, weird dreams and visions, all kinds of fun stuff. The players even went crazy talking about all of these details and events throughout the weeks and months, out of the game, chewing on all this stuff. Of course, the player characters also enjoyed inhaling the narcotic smoking herbs being burned in ritual bowls, and getting their own crazy tribal tattoos. Yeah, in some ways, it was like a Dark Ages playground for them. Eating animal hearts, chanting, singing to the gods. Oh, and they also loved interacting with the witches and seers, and learning about Saedyr.

The harsh and brutal environment also had an impact on them. They had girlfriends that died in childbirth; another girlfriend gave birth to her baby, which died within a few months of birth from disease. During the winter, people from the community, as well as family members of some of their friends, fellow slaves, and so on, died in the freezing weather, or out on hunting expeditions. Dealing with the Mega-fauna animals was also thrilling for them, and a definite upcharge in the expected pace of a normal hunting trip, or walk through the forest, or, yeah, even them going on a romantic picnic thing in the woods. Animals were often crazy huge and dangerous. *Laughing* The player characters got into cooking and preparing food, helping with feasts, feeding people from the community, as well as dealing with the weather, diseases, and in many ways, just the harsh struggle just to survive. The player characters came to see that the Vandar were often mean, brutal and harsh bastards in many ways because mere survival in their environment was not necessarily a *daily* challenge, but definitely a seasonal challenge. Each season brought new challenges, new work, new preparations. Always something different to do, to participate in, to help everyone survive and live better. Maybe along the way, also to be happy. The whole tribal environment has grown on them, I think. I kind of laugh about them having what is it, "Stockholm Syndrome"? where they identify with their captors, and then, gradually become one with their captors, they join them, and become them. *shrugs* There's maybe some of that going on, for sure. Somewhere along the way, embracing a new culture--going native!--can be a very real thing. Just like many of the proper British Officers an such "going native" in India! *Laughing*

I think that the player characters really became invested when they had kids together. All five of them, sooner or later, had kids. Then their investment became *fanatical* I think that was really the turning point where there was no going back. They were do or die now, in making this new barbarian culture and town their home. There were different episodes that really highlighted how any kind of threat to the people of Haedenburg, or of the Jarls, became a threat *to them*. As their paramours prospered, as their community prospered, they prospered. Just as meaningfully, the children they were having together would prosper. Now it was on!

Meanwhile, the male payer character, well, his relationship with the Volva Witch, Sevaina, developed along similar pathways, if being somewhat less frought with drama. He still dealt with an occasional rival or enemy, though Sevaina is after all, being a mystical witch, is kind creepy and eccentric. The player character seemed to enjoy the challenge though, as well as the whole exotic factor. They gradually became a kind of "power couple"--she would enchant him, mark him with enchanted tattoos, and he would crush her enemies, or perform better in whatever battle or fight he was in. This of course, elevated and enhanced her own status and prestige, as she was seen as being with a real bad ass. A foreign "Bad Boy" just for her! *Laughing* He also, somewhat calculatingly, recognized that he had to stay on top of his game, to keep making progress, and to keep her devotion and passion on point. He has this thing going pretty well with her, despite the fact that she is definitely on the edge, so to speak. She's dangerous, possessive, vindictive, and hyper-emotional, so he knows he has his work cut out for him. *Laughing* Sevaina is a "Bad Girl"!!

I have this random emotions and random event chart I roll on every few days for her, which then leads into various episodes. Sometimes, these random rolls develop into a genuine adventure, or an honour duel to the death, or some other kind of crazy drama. It's like he is always riding on the back of a crazy, wild horse. Despite him being a strong character and a solid man, he knows he is never really in complete control. She can open the door to all kinds of trainwrecks in a matter of a few moments or hours. Their relationship is often unpredictable too, but perhaps the one saving grace is through the veils of this woman's craziness, she has also become obsessively and fanatically loyal to him. Yes, there's episodes of jealousy, paranoia, and rage, but he knows she would be with him to the last, through Dragon's fire. So, he accepts her crazy tantrums and bizarre visions. Oftentimes, I have to say, its fucking hilarious! I use real-world kind of events and attitudes to inspire me though. *Laughing* You have surely heard of these kinds of women, no doubt! It's weird how they can be absolutely exhilarating and magnetically attractive--while the other part of you knows that trouble is coming for sure, like a shark waiting just under the surface. *Laughing* It's awesome watching his facial expressions and reactions to her behavior or her exclamations, too. He says to me, "So, what does she do now? What trainride is she getting me on this week?" The crazy train! The girls, naturally, love her too! They love having her around with them, because she's always good for some new excitement. Her crazy paranoia is also funny as hell, because she inspires the girls to be paranoid and jealous and crazy too. So, they kind of feed off of each other in provoking more crazy fits. *Laughing*

A female Goliath? Damn, my friend! Goliaths have got to be crazy fun, huh? Can you imagine when this chick goes shopping for clothes? She must love that! Is she like, super mystical? Having a shadow fey lover...Hmmm...that's interesting! So much drama can be had with a suave bastard like that, huh? She sounds awesome, too, S'mon! What class is her Goliath character? I'm surprised that a woman would choose a Goliath as a character. I admit though, some women really do like playing a rougher, kind of outcast character or race. I always have at least one woman that is eager to play a Half-Orc, or a Half-Troll, or that kind of race. They can definitely dig it. And see? You have another woman playing a Half Orc! *Laughing* She shags all the strong male human warriors! *Laughing* Oh my god. That's so in keeping for a Half Orc chick, huh? And, she plays a Half Orc Barbarian. Of course! They love playing barbarians!

And of course, you have a Teifling. I can't say that surprises me, S'mon. Women love playing horny Teiflings! What class is she? She's hooked up with a noble knight and war hero huh? That must be a change of ace for her! Their personalities get along well? I'd think you'd have lots of conflict between two people like that.

Time for me to make some more French Roast coffee!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2023, 01:53:07 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
Have you had women players go for the "Bad Boys"? Have you seen women engage in crazy scheming and ruthless machinations against their enemies or rivals?

I had two similar incidents in my vikings game.

I had a tough warlord visited with a dozen of his troops to the homestead of one of the PCs, in a show of force. Once there, he proposed to her. She was a famed prophetess who had just gotten known from their last adventures. He thought she would be an advantage for his battle. Rather than try to find a way out of it, she said "Hell, yeah, I'll marry you. But here are my terms and you better accept them because I'm a badass prophetess and you don't want to get on my bad side."

On the reverse side from the men, I was surprised when I introduced a forceful widow named Borgny the Sharp-Tongued, who was a bit of a black sheep in her noble family. As her nickname implied, she was famed for her temper. I hadn't expected her as a romantic interest. However, there was a PC who was a non-noble huscarl who had gotten a bunch of loot from adventures, and he decided to propose to her - which would be his way of joining the nobility. That made for a fun and argumentative courtship. So I think the "bad girl" is also a thing for male PCs.

Greetings!

Hey Jhkim! Interesting! That prophetess character sounds like she's so much fun! How has that warlord developed? Has the prophetess helped him become more powerful? What kind of warlord is he? What kind of warriors does he have? What kind of culture are they in?

*Laughing*!!!! Hah! The "Bad Girl" thing! Oh, you KNOW that's right, Jhkim! The "Bad Girls" always get lots of attention! I can see how ensuring that he becomes part of the nobility would be a powerful attraction point. Definitely a strong social and political move. Has he regretted his decisions? Has their relationship continued to get stronger? And, a widow, too. How old is she? Can she have kids? Was having kids important to the player character? What kind of culture are they In? Some cool possibilities thre for sure, Jhkim!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

Of course, if the nice, pleasant and predictable fellow is two standard deviations above the bad boys in wealth, then suddenly the bad boys are just rude and dirty, while the predictable fellow is gentle and well-bred... 

Before someone raises an eyebrow, these are general behaviours, and any single woman may be looking for completely different qualities in her paramours. Yet these standards persist because, at the end of the day, they do confer an evolutionary advantage to the offspring of such an union, regardless of what moral judgement we as rational human beings may make of the situation.

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:19:39 PM
A female Goliath? Damn, my friend! Goliaths have got to be crazy fun, huh? Can you imagine when this chick goes shopping for clothes? She must love that! Is she like, super mystical? Having a shadow fey lover...Hmmm...that's interesting! So much drama can be had with a suave bastard like that, huh? She sounds awesome, too, S'mon! What class is her Goliath character? I'm surprised that a woman would choose a Goliath as a character. I admit though, some women really do like playing a rougher, kind of outcast character or race. I always have at least one woman that is eager to play a Half-Orc, or a Half-Troll, or that kind of race. They can definitely dig it. And see? You have another woman playing a Half Orc! *Laughing* She shags all the strong male human warriors! *Laughing* Oh my god. That's so in keeping for a Half Orc chick, huh? And, she plays a Half Orc Barbarian. Of course! They love playing barbarians!

And of course, you have a Teifling. I can't say that surprises me, S'mon. Women love playing horny Teiflings! What class is she? She's hooked up with a noble knight and war hero huh? That must be a change of ace for her! Their personalities get along well? I'd think you'd have lots of conflict between two people like that.

Time for me to make some more French Roast coffee!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My novelist friend Kimberly (American) plays 8' tall Nathia the Goliath Fighter; Kim is very short and she wanted to be tall for once!  The PCs were in a dungeon and met this stoic 10' tall Shadowfey Guardian, guarding against demonic/undead incursion. Nathia: "Why hello, you long cool drink of water!*wink*" - She swept the poor guy off his feet!  Later she said she did it to see how I'd react, since I had to swiftly turn a nameless elite mook into a developed NPC, Arnor. It worked out really well and added a lot of cool interaction with the Shadow Fey, a dangerous quest to meet the Fey Queen, and a powerful ally to the group.

Jelena is French/Serbian, she plays Greeba the mighty Half-Orc Barbarian & Smith. When she's notcrushing skulls or banging steel, she's banging dudes. Of course only a few men are man enough for the challenge.  I think her favourite is Braltak the Barbarian, who says stuff like "I have waded through a sea of blood to crush you against my manly chest!" - yes a bit of a comedy character, she loves it. She also likes the guard commander Sergeant Stahlen, a somewhat older fellow with an air of competence & confidence.

Clare (English) is an actress, unsurprisingly her PC Moxy is a Tiefling Bard with a truly insatiable appetite for carnal pleasures - including fellow PCs*... recently she's been adventuring in a group with Kevan Blackguard, a Half-Elf Bard played by her IRL friend Jack. The Bard PCs are great rivals, real hate at first sight, amazing cutting barbs - I told them "I'm glad you two are good friends IRL!"
For the heroic NPC knight Sir Palador deVir, Moxy is really the rebound girl after he broke up with Princess Renee Hogarth of Arcata (politics), while Moxy just enjoys handsome male attention - so it seems a mutually beneficial relationship, but not really a serious one.

*Mostly the Paladins, now I think about it. 

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

That was the point I was going to bring up. When you look to what people's deepest instincts incline them towards in a mate, you can explain, I'd say, 96%-97% of those decisions by assuming men are looking for indications of fertility, while women are looking for indications of power. (The reason I say "indications of" is that very often the signs of these things have more impact than conscious knowledge of the reality of them -- which explains both the profitability of cosmetics and cosmetic surgery for women, and the persistent appeal of antisocial or even criminal behaviour for men.)

In a gaming context I don't think I ever saw this dynamic play out myself -- the games I played in involving a significant participation of female players or PCs were all SF or World-of-Darkness type urban fantasy (Vampire, specifically), so none of the female PCs wound up in contexts where that level of decision-making had to operate. But for an interesting alternate perspective on the OP's game situation, I would recommend reading the novel Kushiel's Dart, by Jacqueline Carey -- the main character, who is a courtesan in a Renaissance France-type society of sexual enlightenment, is kidnapped due to political intrigue and sold as a slave to a Scandinavian-Viking type culture, and her experience of having to learn its ways to survive while still preserving her own ideals and desire to escape is a fascinating story of the same situation.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

Of course, if the nice, pleasant and predictable fellow is two standard deviations above the bad boys in wealth, then suddenly the bad boys are just rude and dirty, while the predictable fellow is gentle and well-bred... 

Before someone raises an eyebrow, these are general behaviours, and any single woman may be looking for completely different qualities in her paramours. Yet these standards persist because, at the end of the day, they do confer an evolutionary advantage to the offspring of such an union, regardless of what moral judgement we as rational human beings may make of the situation.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, sir!

"Of course, if the nice, pleasant and predictable fellow is two standard deviations above the bad boys in wealth, then suddenly the bad boys are just rude and dirty, while the predictable fellow is gentle and well-bred...  "

*Laughing* Geesus. I choked on my coffee laughing so much from this. You know the women's double-speak so well! That is sooooo true, Wtrmute! Gentle and well bred! Ahh, damn. That hampster wheel is always running in the women!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on February 25, 2023, 05:58:48 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:19:39 PM
A female Goliath? Damn, my friend! Goliaths have got to be crazy fun, huh? Can you imagine when this chick goes shopping for clothes? She must love that! Is she like, super mystical? Having a shadow fey lover...Hmmm...that's interesting! So much drama can be had with a suave bastard like that, huh? She sounds awesome, too, S'mon! What class is her Goliath character? I'm surprised that a woman would choose a Goliath as a character. I admit though, some women really do like playing a rougher, kind of outcast character or race. I always have at least one woman that is eager to play a Half-Orc, or a Half-Troll, or that kind of race. They can definitely dig it. And see? You have another woman playing a Half Orc! *Laughing* She shags all the strong male human warriors! *Laughing* Oh my god. That's so in keeping for a Half Orc chick, huh? And, she plays a Half Orc Barbarian. Of course! They love playing barbarians!

And of course, you have a Teifling. I can't say that surprises me, S'mon. Women love playing horny Teiflings! What class is she? She's hooked up with a noble knight and war hero huh? That must be a change of ace for her! Their personalities get along well? I'd think you'd have lots of conflict between two people like that.

Time for me to make some more French Roast coffee!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My novelist friend Kimberly (American) plays 8' tall Nathia the Goliath Fighter; Kim is very short and she wanted to be tall for once!  The PCs were in a dungeon and met this stoic 10' tall Shadowfey Guardian, guarding against demonic/undead incursion. Nathia: "Why hello, you long cool drink of water!*wink*" - She swept the poor guy off his feet!  Later she said she did it to see how I'd react, since I had to swiftly turn a nameless elite mook into a developed NPC, Arnor. It worked out really well and added a lot of cool interaction with the Shadow Fey, a dangerous quest to meet the Fey Queen, and a powerful ally to the group.

Jelena is French/Serbian, she plays Greeba the mighty Half-Orc Barbarian & Smith. When she's notcrushing skulls or banging steel, she's banging dudes. Of course only a few men are man enough for the challenge.  I think her favourite is Braltak the Barbarian, who says stuff like "I have waded through a sea of blood to crush you against my manly chest!" - yes a bit of a comedy character, she loves it. She also likes the guard commander Sergeant Stahlen, a somewhat older fellow with an air of competence & confidence.

Clare (English) is an actress, unsurprisingly her PC Moxy is a Tiefling Bard with a truly insatiable appetite for carnal pleasures - including fellow PCs*... recently she's been adventuring in a group with Kevan Blackguard, a Half-Elf Bard played by her IRL friend Jack. The Bard PCs are great rivals, real hate at first sight, amazing cutting barbs - I told them "I'm glad you two are good friends IRL!"
For the heroic NPC knight Sir Palador deVir, Moxy is really the rebound girl after he broke up with Princess Renee Hogarth of Arcata (politics), while Moxy just enjoys handsome male attention - so it seems a mutually beneficial relationship, but not really a serious one.

*Mostly the Paladins, now I think about it. 

Greetings!

*Laughing* Awesome, S'mon! Kim, Jelena, and Clare all sound like riots of fun! That's so cool. They sound crazy funny, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 25, 2023, 06:10:29 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

That was the point I was going to bring up. When you look to what people's deepest instincts incline them towards in a mate, you can explain, I'd say, 96%-97% of those decisions by assuming men are looking for indications of fertility, while women are looking for indications of power. (The reason I say "indications of" is that very often the signs of these things have more impact than conscious knowledge of the reality of them -- which explains both the profitability of cosmetics and cosmetic surgery for women, and the persistent appeal of antisocial or even criminal behaviour for men.)

In a gaming context I don't think I ever saw this dynamic play out myself -- the games I played in involving a significant participation of female players or PCs were all SF or World-of-Darkness type urban fantasy (Vampire, specifically), so none of the female PCs wound up in contexts where that level of decision-making had to operate. But for an interesting alternate perspective on the OP's game situation, I would recommend reading the novel Kushiel's Dart, by Jacqueline Carey -- the main character, who is a courtesan in a Renaissance France-type society of sexual enlightenment, is kidnapped due to political intrigue and sold as a slave to a Scandinavian-Viking type culture, and her experience of having to learn its ways to survive while still preserving her own ideals and desire to escape is a fascinating story of the same situation.

Greetings!

Interesting, Stephen! Kushiel's Dart sounds like a fascinating book! How the hell did you come across that book? I'll have to get that one for sure!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:31:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2023, 01:53:07 PM
I had a tough warlord visited with a dozen of his troops to the homestead of one of the PCs, in a show of force. Once there, he proposed to her. She was a famed prophetess who had just gotten known from their last adventures. He thought she would be an advantage for his battle. Rather than try to find a way out of it, she said "Hell, yeah, I'll marry you. But here are my terms and you better accept them because I'm a badass prophetess and you don't want to get on my bad side."

On the reverse side from the men, I was surprised when I introduced a forceful widow named Borgny the Sharp-Tongued, who was a bit of a black sheep in her noble family. As her nickname implied, she was famed for her temper. I hadn't expected her as a romantic interest. However, there was a PC who was a non-noble huscarl who had gotten a bunch of loot from adventures, and he decided to propose to her - which would be his way of joining the nobility. That made for a fun and argumentative courtship. So I think the "bad girl" is also a thing for male PCs.

Hey Jhkim! Interesting! That prophetess character sounds like she's so much fun! How has that warlord developed? Has the prophetess helped him become more powerful? What kind of warlord is he? What kind of warriors does he have? What kind of culture are they in?

*Laughing*!!!! Hah! The "Bad Girl" thing! Oh, you KNOW that's right, Jhkim! The "Bad Girls" always get lots of attention! I can see how ensuring that he becomes part of the nobility would be a powerful attraction point. Definitely a strong social and political move. Has he regretted his decisions? Has their relationship continued to get stronger? And, a widow, too. How old is she? Can she have kids? Was having kids important to the player character? What kind of culture are they In?

This was a semi-mythic alternate-history where the Icelandic colonies in the New World flourished instead of falling out. The PCs were all members of two neighboring homesteads across the Hudson River from each other, in Piermont and Tarrytown. (This is where I grew up, so it was fun to project it to an alternate past.) They were historically Icelandic. Iceland had technically been Christianized, but they kept all their pagan roots and just added that Christ to their pantheon.

Everyone were farmers / herders on their own homesteads, but in summers they would commonly go on raiding and/or trading missions upriver or along the coast - much like Icelanders. The warlord Melnir still was technically a farmer too, he just had more soldiers than most on his farm. His homestead was in the iron-rich region that is now Redbank, New Jersey, so he made and sold a lot of iron weapons. Melnir was always a part of the background, but I wanted to start introducing wider politics, so I thought his forceful proposal would be an interesting twist.

The widow Borgny the Sharp-Tongued was in her thirties, so still childbearing years, but she had a teenage daughter Vagnhild the Sullen - which added to the fun of Skallagrim's marriage. Their marriage worked out well overall, and Skallagrim became head of his own homestead instead of a carl for someone else. Still, home life was never easy for Skallagrim. Borgny was efficient and aggressive, though, so their homestead did prosper.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM
If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

This would be evolutionarily advantageous -- but that doesn't mean that the brain is necessarily genetically encoded to have those behaviors hard-wired. Both animals and humans have many behaviors and traits that aren't perfect. For example, it would have been great for humans if they could have martial arts genetically hard-coded into our brains, but instead, we have to learn that. Just because a trait would be useful doesn't mean that a species necessarily has that trait.

Humans have a lot of features that aren't great for us. For example, human hips shifted for bipedal walking - which made them worse for childbirth. We have more frequent problems in childbirth than many other mammals. Evolutionary psychology would suggest that men really should be less sexually interested in skinny waifs. They should prefer those who are more likely to have successful healthy births, sturdy women with wide hips. However, that isn't always the case.

There's still a lot to be learned in psychology and neuroscience, so I take it all with a grain of salt. I suspect there's only so much that can be encoded in brain chemistry. We naturally find symmetric features and healthy skin pleasing, but a lot of other details seem to differ from culture to culture. The people considered most attractive to us might not be to a Khoisan hunter-gatherer, and vice-versa.

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 08:11:46 PMKushiel's Dart sounds like a fascinating book! How the hell did you come across that book?

I don't remember how I first found the book, but Carey's written a whole series of trilogies in the same world by now -- the setting is basically a fantasy version of Earth where rather than resurrecting and creating Christianity, Yeshua ben Yusuf's blood spilled on the earth to create a divine being called Elua, who wandered the world preaching the message: "Love as thou wilt." Elua's message was so appealing that several angels of the One God Himself left His side to follow Elua, and Elua and the angels eventually settled in a land that came to be called Terre d'Ange (i.e., "Land of Angels"), which is Carey's version of France.

The D'Angelines -- the culture descended from the mortal offspring of these angels -- are more beautiful than normal mortals and are gifted with a religious/magical ritual that unlocks their women's fertility only at the time they choose, giving them effectively perfect birth control and, it can be plausibly inferred, immunity to most STDs. This basically means D'Angeline culture is a complete fantasy of sexual liberation; prostitution is revered as a sacred calling, there is virtually no stigma at all attached to same-sex relations (only on rare occasions where it jeopardizes inheritances), and every style of kink has its own school of erotic philosophy attached to it. Phedre no Delaunay, the heroine of the first trilogy, is the ultimate example of this; she is an anguissette, who experiences pain as pleasure and has a magical gift of healing to help her bear the injuries she incurs with that taste (the red fleck in her iris is the mark which shows this gift, the eponymous "Kushiel's Dart" -- Kushiel is the angel of penitential punishment, who brings mercy through pain).

Now this supposed fantasia has more holes in it than the D'Angelines themselves like to admit, which is one reason the books are a lot more enjoyable to read than one might suspect from this rather Woke-sounding description; the D'Angelines are actually as capable of jealousy, pride, envy, resentment and treachery as any other humans, and the price of "Love as thou wilt" as a philosophy shows its obvious flaws when we see that one major villain's love is intrigue and betrayal for its own sake. But the complexity of Carey's world and characters and the eloquence of her prose still make them a perennial rereading favourite for me.

RE: the OP's thread title.

Because they don't believe they deserve any better.  They secretly believe they deserve to be mistreated.  They expect it to happen.  Even in RPGs.

Quote
Keelia doesn't usually do romance either, but her PC Queale the very serious half-elf Horizon Walker Ranger was successfully courted by Jack's romantic PC Kevan the half-elf Bard, the two PCs are in a committed relationship with their own little sheep farm

Actually Jack just told me his IRL girlfriend doesn't like him doing RPG romance with another real woman, so the two PCs have to break up!