TheRPGSite

Greetings!

Well, in the Taking Prisoners? thread, I made a comment about one of my campaigns. The Player Characters are one male, and four females. The adventuring group had progressed in the campaign, clearing two dungeons, fighting animals and monsters, and defending their homeland community--nd neighboring communities--from various enemy barbarian tribes. The player character's homeland was more or less also a tribal barbarian society, though gradually becoming more medieval, more sophisticated government bureaucracy, better legal odes, a High Church environment, and a more advanced and sophisticated economy. The player's homeland culture had even developed some orders of knights, as well as having temple-sponsored Paladins. Noble tournaments were a growing tradition, as well as increasingly profitable regional faires, and other kinds of diverse entertainment. Scholarship is growing, and professional schooling is also growing in popularity and is more organized. Part of the advancing economy is an increase in crafting and professional specialization, a well as embracing new ideas, and exchanges of knowledge and learning amongst other, foreign kingdoms and realms. Their particular Danevar Tribe has grown into developing an official Kingdom, having court nobles, and a monarchy that is now several generations old. The kingdom is on it's fourth descended King. The kingdom faces various challenges and threats, but is increasingly unified, organized, and prosperous.

The adventuring group becomes involved with repelling some barbarian raiders. These particular barbarian raiders are similar to barbarian tribal warbands that have fought against the Danevar tribes for several generations now, though they are also different. These particular barbarian raiders are Vandar barbarians, who come from the Vandar lands across the sea. Thus, these Vandar barbarians come by the sea--rowing and sailing their great Dragonships. The Vandar barbarians are tall, mighty giants, pale of skin and often having pale, blonde hair the colour of platinum or golden wheat. The adventuring group is defeated in battle after hard and fierce fighting. The Vandar barbarians decide to take the adventuring group captive, and thus, they are taken away to the Dragonships and carried to the cold, Vandar lands as war booty.

I had initially expected that after surviving being taken as war booty and made slaves, that the adventuring group would organize some kind of escape relatively soon, and make their way into the strange and mysterious wilderness. No doubt, the adventuring group would struggle to survive in the vast wilderness, fighting monsters and wild animals, as well as being acquainted with survival skills and lore in a very harsh and cold forest environment. I also guessed that they would eventually learn lore, make friends with different people and creatures, and make their way overland, escaping from the Vandar lands, and gradually arriving in a new adventuring area. Alternatively, I also made some plans for a more ea-based way of escape, reasoning that the adventuring group would either steal a Dragonship, or somehow craft their own ship, and set sail for returning to their Alben homeland by way of the great sea. I also anticipated some sea-going naval adventures, discovering or landing on some forsaken and monster-filled islands, fighting Vandar raiders at sea, perhaps also fighting some crazy sea monsters, and more.

Such adventures, however, were not to be. At least not in the ways directly that I had imagined, and anticipated.

Instead, the player characters--one guy and four women--proceeded to endure their captivity and new lives as slaves to their Vandar masters. Several gaming sessions were devoted to their new, rugged and brutal lives as slaves, being regularly plundered as booty, occasionally tortured, and routinely humiliated and used in hard labour in dangerous, harsh conditions. Admittedly, the prospect of escape from such a harsh environment and a brutal, foreign and barbarian culture was an imposing endeavor. They didn't speak the Vandar language, the barbarian culture was different, they had no friends, and even if they managed to escape their Vandar masters immediate grasp, where would they go? A forbidding land of epic mountains, dark, ancient forests shrouded in fog and icy mists, and teeming with strange, dangerous monsters awaited them outside the gates of their prison-home, Haedenburg. Haedenburg was a fortified Vandar town, built on a group of hills overlooking a deep and shimmering fiord. The great fiord was flanked by high mountains and sheer cliffs, crusted with glittering ice. Out in the deep, blue, icy cold waters, majestic whales leaped through the waters and made eerie, haunting cries. Flocks of large chattering sea-gulls cried in the skies about them. Out more in the nearby forests, large flocks of black ravens cawed at them frequently, and often seemed to mock them, even while always watching them with their malevolent gaze. Thus, any kind of escape would surely be difficult and very dangerous, and forbidding. I didn't think that pursuing such a plan of escape would be easy. To hope to successfully escape, the adventuring group would simply have to be smart, cunning, and ruthlessly determined. There was a possibility of success.

The adventuring party went from enduring their slavery and life of being booty and grinding, menial labourers, to actively embracing their new lives. The group members each made efforts to learn the Vandor language, as well as eagerly learning Vandar culture and lore. The women went from being terrified, enraged, and humiliated by their Vandar masters, to showing increasing interest and curiosity to learn the ways of the Vandar culture and people. The women began to actively and willingly seek out their Vandar masters for romantic episodes, and engaged them in deeper conversations. The male player, also began shifting from more passive resentment and indifference, to actively pursuing this Volva witch that had enslaved him as her plaything and concubine. Through more weeks and months, the group pursued and cultivated genuine friendships with others around them, with special attention paid to appeasing their Vandar masters, and gaining their approval, confidence, and trust. Labour was now done eagerly, with a drive for excellence and accomplishment. Gradually, their Vandar masters loosened their restrictions as slaves, and also began to reward them.

The adventuring group gained more rewards and better treatment. Strangely, as they prospered and gained in esteem from their Vandar masters, they also gained enemies and rivals. Various other slaves often conspired against them. Some other Vandar barbarians--both men and women--came to embrace a cruel animosity towards them. More weeks and months went by, with increasingly complicated relationships, drama, and adventures amongst their new Vandar community. The adventuring group eventually earned more freedoms and trust, fighting for the Vandar, serving them, and performing their own deeds of loyalty, devotion, and courage. The adventuring group were eventually granted their freedom, and rewarded with armbands of loyalty. Then, they also served alongside their Vandar friends in battle, officially fighting enemy barbarian tribes, Goblins, evil Hags, as well as wild animals and monsters. The adventuring group had forged genuine romantic relationships with prominent and powerful Vandar warlords, as well as embracing friendships with other prominent and important members of the local community. By this time, several years in game-time had passed, and the adventuring group had steadily established an entirely new life at Haedenburg. The adventuring group were no longer slaves and concubines, booty to be tortured, abused, and humiliated. They were honoured, adopted members of the Vandar tribes, and of the community of Haedenburg.

After additional adventure and preparations, the Vandar gathered new warbands together, and assembled a powerful fleet of Dragonships for the upcoming raiding season. The Vandar barbarians would be returning to the shores of Alben. More battle, more booty, and more glory awaited them. The Vandar raiders landed on the Alben shores, and as battles and adventures developed, three members of the adventuring group--a Paladin, a Cleric, and a Barbarian--had chosen to depart from their old group members as well as their new Vandar friends. Seeing their Alben homeland had inspired them with a new change in the thread of their lives, and they had determined that they would return to their homelands, and to their old lives. This episode was especially dramatic, and more than a few tears flowed, as did an angry and passionate debate. The conflict ended though, as the adventuring group had resigned themselves to the departure of their beloved friends and companions. They had forged a new life amongst the Vandar at Haedenburg, with new friends, new lovers, and a new destiny.

I was admittedly surprised that the players--most especially the women--had been so capable of overlooking the brutality, the torture, the plundering, the humiliation--and to embrace their enemies and oppressors as lovers, companions, and friends. Even while the adventuring group served the Vandar, and engaged in battles and warfare and many adventures and struggles, families were being born, and built, and loved. The group had ultimately shown love, loyalty, devotion, and courage, and had been embraced by the Vandar, and even honoured. the Vandar's tribal drums had greeted them, while the Vandar war horns welcomed them into the embrace of a savage world of blood, fire, and steel. The campaign had begun firmly placed within a significantly different milieu, and through the player character's choices and actions, the campaign had transformed into a more barbaric, dark ages milieu, embracing some similar themes, but also distinctly different themes from the earlier, more medieval campaign theme. Their new family relationships, their children, their enemies and rivals, as well as their friends, had all changed. The campaign geography, climate, environment, as well as the social and political landscape, all now had a different texture entirely.

I was also intrigued by how the players had purposefully plotted and determined to go from the more or less bottom of the social hierarchy, to the top. It was like mastering the new social and cultural environment itself was a kind of puzzle-dungeon adventure for them. I, of course, had to change gears thematically, and adjust to a very different social and cultural environment. The players developed their new relationships with an extra zeal for such a harsh, barbaric environment. The laws, the rules, the codes o life, all seemed more primal, and exhilarating. Everything was unpredictable and dangerous. The weather. The climate. The savage, prehistoric, Megalithic animals. The religious and spiritual environment. The mystical ceremonies and strange rituals. The constant inner tribal dramas and social conflicts with numerous other members of the tribal community. The ever-present anticipation that every new game session, every new episode, might be their character's last. The players reveled in the constant plotting, the scheming, the games and ploys of social climbing and competition for social one-upmanship amongst their rivals. the frequent blood feuds and duels of swords or of the mind with hated rivals. The constant striving for glory, for honour, pushed, inspired, and drove the player characters on to ever more terrifying adventures and deeds of valour and loyalty. It has been a very inspiring and awesome campaign!

Circling back to my opening question, however, it also amazes me how even within the context of the game, strange and intriguing  psychological dynamics have often emerged. The male player pursued forging a relationship that was advantageous, socially, but also with an eye towards genuine compatibility. Actual considerations of her--the Volva witch's--particular social status or wealth typically seemed unimportant to the male player. The women players, however, none the less through much giggling as well as more serious emotional attention, actively pursued and cultivated romantic relationships with the most prominent, most violent and ruthless characters within their social reach--in this case, two of the women characters pursued developing relationships with Jarl warlords, violent and ruthless men at almost the very top of the social hierarchy. With the female character playing a barbarian also developing a relationship with a prominent warrior and blacksmith. While the warrior blacksmith was not a Jarl like the others, he is none the less wealthy, prosperous, and broadly socially respected, having considerable status. The woman player playing a mystical Witch character, she embraced a romantic relationship with a prominent and fierce warrior, a lieutenant or Thane and close friend of the two more prominent warrior Jarls. In addition, though, she has also cultivated a solid friendship with the Volva Witch, and also amongst the Vandar Witches of her tribal circle.

Interestingly, the male player character, perhaps romantic competition for his Vandar Volva Witch wasn't as sharp. Mystical Witches can be strange and eccentric, after all. Still, though, his socialization with her is nothing like the constant competition and possessiveness of the women in their romantic relationships. The women players even would jump on sometimes seemingly innocuous statements or behaviors by other women around their favoured lovers, and interpreting them as a wicked scheme to outdo them in gaining favour or access to their fierce barbarian masters and lovers. It was eye-opening and even amusing, to see how ruthless and bloodthirsty the women players could be--especially against other women rivals and enemies that they hated with fiery passion.

I'm also amused that the women players all have Chaotic or Neutral alignments, except for the one woman playing a Paladin. She is, of course, Lawful Good. But damn, she can get crazy close to alignment violations and bloodthirsty sins of revenge and vengeance against her opponents, too! The female Paladin has typically acted with considerable endurance, patience, and long-suffering virtue in seeking to be humble and devout, and a good spiritual example of righteousness and kindness. But when the BS has gotten tallied too much, when the edge is there--and she has felt fully morally justified according to her faith by training at the devout temple--*BOOM*--out coms the swords and blood flows! Cunningly, when she felt that she could not herself morally justify whipping out her sword and running some wicked girl through, she resorted to mind-bogglingly shrewd social plays with other characters--obviously, primed and aimed at her Jarl paramour, or some friendly but loyal warrior lieutenant. They, then, themselves, would confront the enemy woman rival, and have her tortured and executed, or publicly humiliated and condemned into exile, just from two examples I can remember.

Orchestrating a woman rival being socially ostracized, being impoverished, being subjected to public humiliation--oh my god. These are some of the most preferred weapons. And of course, when the Paladin player was unwilling to kill a woman rival or enemy herself--the girlfriends all went crazy together devising plans to bring utter ruin and damnation to such an enemy woman. These strategy sessions can go on for an hour or more with the girls. I have to tell them to zip it up for now, so we can play! *Laughing* The women players can be very ruthless also against male enemy characters--unleashing or orchestrating lethal violence against them has typically been far easier of course.

It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

It has been an awesome and great campaign, and very entertaining, for sure!

Have you had women players go for the "Bad Boys"? Have you seen women engage in crazy scheming and ruthless machinations against their enemies or rivals?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK   

I think you provided a 'safe space' for a very common female fantasy.  ;D

No, I've not seen this IMCs that I can recall. I probably don't provide sufficiently sexy bad boy NPCs. Certainly the female players tend to be more into sex and/or romance than the average male player, but I can't recall any real 'tame the bad boy' element. I think it's probably my fault as I can think of at least a couple players who'd likely go for that given the opportunity. My romantic interest male NPCs tend to be more Mr D'Arcy or Ser Jorah Mormont types. One female Goliath PC did hit on a Shadowfey Guardian NPC and they are now a close couple who adventure together, but he's not really a bad boy the way I play him. https://www.5esrd.com/database/creature/shadow-fey-guardian-3pp/ Another player plays a nymphomaniac tiefling, among countless tristes she has an ongoing affair with an NPC noble knight & war hero. Another plays a half orc barbarian who just shags the strongest human male warriors she can find.

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
Have you had women players go for the "Bad Boys"? Have you seen women engage in crazy scheming and ruthless machinations against their enemies or rivals?

I had two similar incidents in my vikings game.

I had a tough warlord visited with a dozen of his troops to the homestead of one of the PCs, in a show of force. Once there, he proposed to her. She was a famed prophetess who had just gotten known from their last adventures. He thought she would be an advantage for his battle. Rather than try to find a way out of it, she said "Hell, yeah, I'll marry you. But here are my terms and you better accept them because I'm a badass prophetess and you don't want to get on my bad side."

On the reverse side from the men, I was surprised when I introduced a forceful widow named Borgny the Sharp-Tongued, who was a bit of a black sheep in her noble family. As her nickname implied, she was famed for her temper. I hadn't expected her as a romantic interest. However, there was a PC who was a non-noble huscarl who had gotten a bunch of loot from adventures, and he decided to propose to her - which would be his way of joining the nobility. That made for a fun and argumentative courtship. So I think the "bad girl" is also a thing for male PCs.

Quote from: S'mon on February 25, 2023, 06:06:48 AM
I think you provided a 'safe space' for a very common female fantasy.  ;D

No, I've not seen this IMCs that I can recall. I probably don't provide sufficiently sexy bad boy NPCs. Certainly the female players tend to be more into sex and/or romance than the average male player, but I can't recall any real 'tame the bad boy' element. I think it's probably my fault as I can think of at least a couple players who'd likely go for that given the opportunity. My romantic interest male NPCs tend to be more Mr D'Arcy or Ser Jorah Mormont types. One female Goliath PC did hit on a Shadowfey Guardian NPC and they are now a close couple who adventure together, but he's not really a bad boy the way I play him. https://www.5esrd.com/database/creature/shadow-fey-guardian-3pp/ Another player plays a nymphomaniac tiefling, among countless tristes she has an ongoing affair with an NPC noble knight & war hero. Another plays a half orc barbarian who just shags the strongest human male warriors she can find.

Greetings!

Hey S'mon! "A *safe space* for a very common female fantasy!" *LAUGHING* Nice! I love it. So funny, my friend! I had expected also the possibility that the Plyers would attempt some bod escape attempt in customary defiance and heroism--but the girls all resisted that temptation. They had determined that they needed to control their emotions, and to be practical. They needed to make sure they survived. Then, they started discussing--and then scheming--how they could really turn this situation round. They saw a few openings, and honed in on them ruthlessly. They'd point weaknesses out to each other, or speculate on other character's motivations--*Laughing*--that supplied me with so many easy plot hooks and character development, it amazes me also how the game sessions took on almost an ability to write themselves, so to speak. It made it easier for me to identify the personalities of many different NPC's in the environment, and play them with their own motivations, attitudes and behaviors. Such fun, too! Having some good players that can really get into their characters can really enhance a game.

Well, the girls would also then go from this "survival mode" to more and more really exercising their manipulation skills! Then, along the way, they also started to get to know different characters better, and they began to like the idea of their characters falling in love with different people. They recognized the social status differences, and also as how they were often viewed as being a kind of exotic, foreign treat--they began to get possessive, and jealous of the native Vandar women that were competing for the various male characters--the "Bad Boys". It was pretty shrewd to watch the girls embrace the Vandar culture--they hyped themselves on all the exotic coolness, all the savage Paganism, but then they also made sure to let various elements of them being foreigners show through, to highlight their "exotic chick" factor. They'd be extra sassy, or become extra intellectual, even philosophical! and all kinds of activities and events to make themselves just a bit more alluring to the Vandar. They also skillfully orchestrated a kind of leverage, incentivizing the Vandar to treat them better--as opposed to just always crushing them as worthless slaves. The women's abilities at being social and cultural chameleons was pretty impressive.

The player characters, of course, were foreigners, and kind of exotic, and appealing. They were *adventurers*, and did have different languages, culture, knowledge, and lore that were also interesting and intriguing to the Vandar. The player characters did, in fact, enjoy some kind of leverage and appeal. They made choices to make themselves even more appealing to embrace. Through time and events, them being given their freedom, and then honoured with armbands and actually being elevated in social status, we, that was huge, too. The players all recognized that in their circumstances, this situation could really build up to them having a pretty good life in Haedenburg with the Vandar. And of course, also savage and exciting. In between all of the soap-opera drama, there were excursions into the mist-shrouded forests, exploring ancient ruins, encountering weird Faerie creatures, demons, and different Norse-flavoured monsters and creatures. I also added in silly episodes where they saved drowning dogs, rescued some of the Vandar tribe's children from evil Goblins, they met a mysterious, talking wolf, and a mystical Tree that could communicate with them telepathically, and in their dreams. Then, there were the spiritual ceremonies with the bonfires, naked people dancing, weird chanting, antler women priestesses, animals being sacrificed to the Pagan gods, weird dreams and visions, all kinds of fun stuff. The players even went crazy talking about all of these details and events throughout the weeks and months, out of the game, chewing on all this stuff. Of course, the player characters also enjoyed inhaling the narcotic smoking herbs being burned in ritual bowls, and getting their own crazy tribal tattoos. Yeah, in some ways, it was like a Dark Ages playground for them. Eating animal hearts, chanting, singing to the gods. Oh, and they also loved interacting with the witches and seers, and learning about Saedyr.

The harsh and brutal environment also had an impact on them. They had girlfriends that died in childbirth; another girlfriend gave birth to her baby, which died within a few months of birth from disease. During the winter, people from the community, as well as family members of some of their friends, fellow slaves, and so on, died in the freezing weather, or out on hunting expeditions. Dealing with the Mega-fauna animals was also thrilling for them, and a definite upcharge in the expected pace of a normal hunting trip, or walk through the forest, or, yeah, even them going on a romantic picnic thing in the woods. Animals were often crazy huge and dangerous. *Laughing* The player characters got into cooking and preparing food, helping with feasts, feeding people from the community, as well as dealing with the weather, diseases, and in many ways, just the harsh struggle just to survive. The player characters came to see that the Vandar were often mean, brutal and harsh bastards in many ways because mere survival in their environment was not necessarily a *daily* challenge, but definitely a seasonal challenge. Each season brought new challenges, new work, new preparations. Always something different to do, to participate in, to help everyone survive and live better. Maybe along the way, also to be happy. The whole tribal environment has grown on them, I think. I kind of laugh about them having what is it, "Stockholm Syndrome"? where they identify with their captors, and then, gradually become one with their captors, they join them, and become them. *shrugs* There's maybe some of that going on, for sure. Somewhere along the way, embracing a new culture--going native!--can be a very real thing. Just like many of the proper British Officers an such "going native" in India! *Laughing*

I think that the player characters really became invested when they had kids together. All five of them, sooner or later, had kids. Then their investment became *fanatical* I think that was really the turning point where there was no going back. They were do or die now, in making this new barbarian culture and town their home. There were different episodes that really highlighted how any kind of threat to the people of Haedenburg, or of the Jarls, became a threat *to them*. As their paramours prospered, as their community prospered, they prospered. Just as meaningfully, the children they were having together would prosper. Now it was on!

Meanwhile, the male payer character, well, his relationship with the Volva Witch, Sevaina, developed along similar pathways, if being somewhat less frought with drama. He still dealt with an occasional rival or enemy, though Sevaina is after all, being a mystical witch, is kind creepy and eccentric. The player character seemed to enjoy the challenge though, as well as the whole exotic factor. They gradually became a kind of "power couple"--she would enchant him, mark him with enchanted tattoos, and he would crush her enemies, or perform better in whatever battle or fight he was in. This of course, elevated and enhanced her own status and prestige, as she was seen as being with a real bad ass. A foreign "Bad Boy" just for her! *Laughing* He also, somewhat calculatingly, recognized that he had to stay on top of his game, to keep making progress, and to keep her devotion and passion on point. He has this thing going pretty well with her, despite the fact that she is definitely on the edge, so to speak. She's dangerous, possessive, vindictive, and hyper-emotional, so he knows he has his work cut out for him. *Laughing* Sevaina is a "Bad Girl"!!

I have this random emotions and random event chart I roll on every few days for her, which then leads into various episodes. Sometimes, these random rolls develop into a genuine adventure, or an honour duel to the death, or some other kind of crazy drama. It's like he is always riding on the back of a crazy, wild horse. Despite him being a strong character and a solid man, he knows he is never really in complete control. She can open the door to all kinds of trainwrecks in a matter of a few moments or hours. Their relationship is often unpredictable too, but perhaps the one saving grace is through the veils of this woman's craziness, she has also become obsessively and fanatically loyal to him. Yes, there's episodes of jealousy, paranoia, and rage, but he knows she would be with him to the last, through Dragon's fire. So, he accepts her crazy tantrums and bizarre visions. Oftentimes, I have to say, its fucking hilarious! I use real-world kind of events and attitudes to inspire me though. *Laughing* You have surely heard of these kinds of women, no doubt! It's weird how they can be absolutely exhilarating and magnetically attractive--while the other part of you knows that trouble is coming for sure, like a shark waiting just under the surface. *Laughing* It's awesome watching his facial expressions and reactions to her behavior or her exclamations, too. He says to me, "So, what does she do now? What trainride is she getting me on this week?" The crazy train! The girls, naturally, love her too! They love having her around with them, because she's always good for some new excitement. Her crazy paranoia is also funny as hell, because she inspires the girls to be paranoid and jealous and crazy too. So, they kind of feed off of each other in provoking more crazy fits. *Laughing*

A female Goliath? Damn, my friend! Goliaths have got to be crazy fun, huh? Can you imagine when this chick goes shopping for clothes? She must love that! Is she like, super mystical? Having a shadow fey lover...Hmmm...that's interesting! So much drama can be had with a suave bastard like that, huh? She sounds awesome, too, S'mon! What class is her Goliath character? I'm surprised that a woman would choose a Goliath as a character. I admit though, some women really do like playing a rougher, kind of outcast character or race. I always have at least one woman that is eager to play a Half-Orc, or a Half-Troll, or that kind of race. They can definitely dig it. And see? You have another woman playing a Half Orc! *Laughing* She shags all the strong male human warriors! *Laughing* Oh my god. That's so in keeping for a Half Orc chick, huh? And, she plays a Half Orc Barbarian. Of course! They love playing barbarians!

And of course, you have a Teifling. I can't say that surprises me, S'mon. Women love playing horny Teiflings! What class is she? She's hooked up with a noble knight and war hero huh? That must be a change of ace for her! Their personalities get along well? I'd think you'd have lots of conflict between two people like that.

Time for me to make some more French Roast coffee!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2023, 01:53:07 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
Have you had women players go for the "Bad Boys"? Have you seen women engage in crazy scheming and ruthless machinations against their enemies or rivals?

I had two similar incidents in my vikings game.

I had a tough warlord visited with a dozen of his troops to the homestead of one of the PCs, in a show of force. Once there, he proposed to her. She was a famed prophetess who had just gotten known from their last adventures. He thought she would be an advantage for his battle. Rather than try to find a way out of it, she said "Hell, yeah, I'll marry you. But here are my terms and you better accept them because I'm a badass prophetess and you don't want to get on my bad side."

On the reverse side from the men, I was surprised when I introduced a forceful widow named Borgny the Sharp-Tongued, who was a bit of a black sheep in her noble family. As her nickname implied, she was famed for her temper. I hadn't expected her as a romantic interest. However, there was a PC who was a non-noble huscarl who had gotten a bunch of loot from adventures, and he decided to propose to her - which would be his way of joining the nobility. That made for a fun and argumentative courtship. So I think the "bad girl" is also a thing for male PCs.

Greetings!

Hey Jhkim! Interesting! That prophetess character sounds like she's so much fun! How has that warlord developed? Has the prophetess helped him become more powerful? What kind of warlord is he? What kind of warriors does he have? What kind of culture are they in?

*Laughing*!!!! Hah! The "Bad Girl" thing! Oh, you KNOW that's right, Jhkim! The "Bad Girls" always get lots of attention! I can see how ensuring that he becomes part of the nobility would be a powerful attraction point. Definitely a strong social and political move. Has he regretted his decisions? Has their relationship continued to get stronger? And, a widow, too. How old is she? Can she have kids? Was having kids important to the player character? What kind of culture are they In? Some cool possibilities thre for sure, Jhkim!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

Of course, if the nice, pleasant and predictable fellow is two standard deviations above the bad boys in wealth, then suddenly the bad boys are just rude and dirty, while the predictable fellow is gentle and well-bred...  ;)

Before someone raises an eyebrow, these are general behaviours, and any single woman may be looking for completely different qualities in her paramours. Yet these standards persist because, at the end of the day, they do confer an evolutionary advantage to the offspring of such an union, regardless of what moral judgement we as rational human beings may make of the situation.

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:19:39 PM
A female Goliath? Damn, my friend! Goliaths have got to be crazy fun, huh? Can you imagine when this chick goes shopping for clothes? She must love that! Is she like, super mystical? Having a shadow fey lover...Hmmm...that's interesting! So much drama can be had with a suave bastard like that, huh? She sounds awesome, too, S'mon! What class is her Goliath character? I'm surprised that a woman would choose a Goliath as a character. I admit though, some women really do like playing a rougher, kind of outcast character or race. I always have at least one woman that is eager to play a Half-Orc, or a Half-Troll, or that kind of race. They can definitely dig it. And see? You have another woman playing a Half Orc! *Laughing* She shags all the strong male human warriors! *Laughing* Oh my god. That's so in keeping for a Half Orc chick, huh? And, she plays a Half Orc Barbarian. Of course! They love playing barbarians!

And of course, you have a Teifling. I can't say that surprises me, S'mon. Women love playing horny Teiflings! What class is she? She's hooked up with a noble knight and war hero huh? That must be a change of ace for her! Their personalities get along well? I'd think you'd have lots of conflict between two people like that.

Time for me to make some more French Roast coffee!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My novelist friend Kimberly (American) plays 8' tall Nathia the Goliath Fighter; Kim is very short and she wanted to be tall for once!  ;D The PCs were in a dungeon and met this stoic 10' tall Shadowfey Guardian, guarding against demonic/undead incursion. Nathia: "Why hello, you long cool drink of water!*wink*" - She swept the poor guy off his feet!  ;D Later she said she did it to see how I'd react, since I had to swiftly turn a nameless elite mook into a developed NPC, Arnor. It worked out really well and added a lot of cool interaction with the Shadow Fey, a dangerous quest to meet the Fey Queen, and a powerful ally to the group.

Jelena is French/Serbian, she plays Greeba the mighty Half-Orc Barbarian & Smith. When she's notcrushing skulls or banging steel, she's banging dudes. Of course only a few men are man enough for the challenge.  ;D I think her favourite is Braltak the Barbarian, who says stuff like "I have waded through a sea of blood to crush you against my manly chest!" - yes a bit of a comedy character, she loves it. She also likes the guard commander Sergeant Stahlen, a somewhat older fellow with an air of competence & confidence.

Clare (English) is an actress, unsurprisingly her PC Moxy is a Tiefling Bard with a truly insatiable appetite for carnal pleasures - including fellow PCs*... recently she's been adventuring in a group with Kevan Blackguard, a Half-Elf Bard played by her IRL friend Jack. The Bard PCs are great rivals, real hate at first sight, amazing cutting barbs - I told them "I'm glad you two are good friends IRL!"
For the heroic NPC knight Sir Palador deVir, Moxy is really the rebound girl after he broke up with Princess Renee Hogarth of Arcata (politics), while Moxy just enjoys handsome male attention - so it seems a mutually beneficial relationship, but not really a serious one.

*Mostly the Paladins, now I think about it.  ;D

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

That was the point I was going to bring up. When you look to what people's deepest instincts incline them towards in a mate, you can explain, I'd say, 96%-97% of those decisions by assuming men are looking for indications of fertility, while women are looking for indications of power. (The reason I say "indications of" is that very often the signs of these things have more impact than conscious knowledge of the reality of them -- which explains both the profitability of cosmetics and cosmetic surgery for women, and the persistent appeal of antisocial or even criminal behaviour for men.)

In a gaming context I don't think I ever saw this dynamic play out myself -- the games I played in involving a significant participation of female players or PCs were all SF or World-of-Darkness type urban fantasy (Vampire, specifically), so none of the female PCs wound up in contexts where that level of decision-making had to operate. But for an interesting alternate perspective on the OP's game situation, I would recommend reading the novel Kushiel's Dart, by Jacqueline Carey -- the main character, who is a courtesan in a Renaissance France-type society of sexual enlightenment, is kidnapped due to political intrigue and sold as a slave to a Scandinavian-Viking type culture, and her experience of having to learn its ways to survive while still preserving her own ideals and desire to escape is a fascinating story of the same situation.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

Of course, if the nice, pleasant and predictable fellow is two standard deviations above the bad boys in wealth, then suddenly the bad boys are just rude and dirty, while the predictable fellow is gentle and well-bred...  ;)

Before someone raises an eyebrow, these are general behaviours, and any single woman may be looking for completely different qualities in her paramours. Yet these standards persist because, at the end of the day, they do confer an evolutionary advantage to the offspring of such an union, regardless of what moral judgement we as rational human beings may make of the situation.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, sir!

"Of course, if the nice, pleasant and predictable fellow is two standard deviations above the bad boys in wealth, then suddenly the bad boys are just rude and dirty, while the predictable fellow is gentle and well-bred...  ;)"

*Laughing* Geesus. I choked on my coffee laughing so much from this. You know the women's double-speak so well! That is sooooo true, Wtrmute! Gentle and well bred! Ahh, damn. That hampster wheel is always running in the women!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on February 25, 2023, 05:58:48 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:19:39 PM
A female Goliath? Damn, my friend! Goliaths have got to be crazy fun, huh? Can you imagine when this chick goes shopping for clothes? She must love that! Is she like, super mystical? Having a shadow fey lover...Hmmm...that's interesting! So much drama can be had with a suave bastard like that, huh? She sounds awesome, too, S'mon! What class is her Goliath character? I'm surprised that a woman would choose a Goliath as a character. I admit though, some women really do like playing a rougher, kind of outcast character or race. I always have at least one woman that is eager to play a Half-Orc, or a Half-Troll, or that kind of race. They can definitely dig it. And see? You have another woman playing a Half Orc! *Laughing* She shags all the strong male human warriors! *Laughing* Oh my god. That's so in keeping for a Half Orc chick, huh? And, she plays a Half Orc Barbarian. Of course! They love playing barbarians!

And of course, you have a Teifling. I can't say that surprises me, S'mon. Women love playing horny Teiflings! What class is she? She's hooked up with a noble knight and war hero huh? That must be a change of ace for her! Their personalities get along well? I'd think you'd have lots of conflict between two people like that.

Time for me to make some more French Roast coffee!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My novelist friend Kimberly (American) plays 8' tall Nathia the Goliath Fighter; Kim is very short and she wanted to be tall for once!  ;D The PCs were in a dungeon and met this stoic 10' tall Shadowfey Guardian, guarding against demonic/undead incursion. Nathia: "Why hello, you long cool drink of water!*wink*" - She swept the poor guy off his feet!  ;D Later she said she did it to see how I'd react, since I had to swiftly turn a nameless elite mook into a developed NPC, Arnor. It worked out really well and added a lot of cool interaction with the Shadow Fey, a dangerous quest to meet the Fey Queen, and a powerful ally to the group.

Jelena is French/Serbian, she plays Greeba the mighty Half-Orc Barbarian & Smith. When she's notcrushing skulls or banging steel, she's banging dudes. Of course only a few men are man enough for the challenge.  ;D I think her favourite is Braltak the Barbarian, who says stuff like "I have waded through a sea of blood to crush you against my manly chest!" - yes a bit of a comedy character, she loves it. She also likes the guard commander Sergeant Stahlen, a somewhat older fellow with an air of competence & confidence.

Clare (English) is an actress, unsurprisingly her PC Moxy is a Tiefling Bard with a truly insatiable appetite for carnal pleasures - including fellow PCs*... recently she's been adventuring in a group with Kevan Blackguard, a Half-Elf Bard played by her IRL friend Jack. The Bard PCs are great rivals, real hate at first sight, amazing cutting barbs - I told them "I'm glad you two are good friends IRL!"
For the heroic NPC knight Sir Palador deVir, Moxy is really the rebound girl after he broke up with Princess Renee Hogarth of Arcata (politics), while Moxy just enjoys handsome male attention - so it seems a mutually beneficial relationship, but not really a serious one.

*Mostly the Paladins, now I think about it.  ;D

Greetings!

*Laughing* Awesome, S'mon! Kim, Jelena, and Clare all sound like riots of fun! That's so cool. They sound crazy funny, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 25, 2023, 06:10:29 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:10:18 AM
It is hilarious though to watch how the women pursue romance in particular with the absolute ruthless "bad boys" available to them, while far more nice, pleasant, predictable male suitors are laughingly *Friend Zoned* and romantically ignored. The "Bad Boys" social confidence, prestige, violent tempers, heroic and often dangerously unpredictable personalities seem to be like irresistible chocolate for the women players.

If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

That was the point I was going to bring up. When you look to what people's deepest instincts incline them towards in a mate, you can explain, I'd say, 96%-97% of those decisions by assuming men are looking for indications of fertility, while women are looking for indications of power. (The reason I say "indications of" is that very often the signs of these things have more impact than conscious knowledge of the reality of them -- which explains both the profitability of cosmetics and cosmetic surgery for women, and the persistent appeal of antisocial or even criminal behaviour for men.)

In a gaming context I don't think I ever saw this dynamic play out myself -- the games I played in involving a significant participation of female players or PCs were all SF or World-of-Darkness type urban fantasy (Vampire, specifically), so none of the female PCs wound up in contexts where that level of decision-making had to operate. But for an interesting alternate perspective on the OP's game situation, I would recommend reading the novel Kushiel's Dart, by Jacqueline Carey -- the main character, who is a courtesan in a Renaissance France-type society of sexual enlightenment, is kidnapped due to political intrigue and sold as a slave to a Scandinavian-Viking type culture, and her experience of having to learn its ways to survive while still preserving her own ideals and desire to escape is a fascinating story of the same situation.

Greetings!

Interesting, Stephen! Kushiel's Dart sounds like a fascinating book! How the hell did you come across that book? I'll have to get that one for sure!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 04:31:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 25, 2023, 01:53:07 PM
I had a tough warlord visited with a dozen of his troops to the homestead of one of the PCs, in a show of force. Once there, he proposed to her. She was a famed prophetess who had just gotten known from their last adventures. He thought she would be an advantage for his battle. Rather than try to find a way out of it, she said "Hell, yeah, I'll marry you. But here are my terms and you better accept them because I'm a badass prophetess and you don't want to get on my bad side."

On the reverse side from the men, I was surprised when I introduced a forceful widow named Borgny the Sharp-Tongued, who was a bit of a black sheep in her noble family. As her nickname implied, she was famed for her temper. I hadn't expected her as a romantic interest. However, there was a PC who was a non-noble huscarl who had gotten a bunch of loot from adventures, and he decided to propose to her - which would be his way of joining the nobility. That made for a fun and argumentative courtship. So I think the "bad girl" is also a thing for male PCs.

Hey Jhkim! Interesting! That prophetess character sounds like she's so much fun! How has that warlord developed? Has the prophetess helped him become more powerful? What kind of warlord is he? What kind of warriors does he have? What kind of culture are they in?

*Laughing*!!!! Hah! The "Bad Girl" thing! Oh, you KNOW that's right, Jhkim! The "Bad Girls" always get lots of attention! I can see how ensuring that he becomes part of the nobility would be a powerful attraction point. Definitely a strong social and political move. Has he regretted his decisions? Has their relationship continued to get stronger? And, a widow, too. How old is she? Can she have kids? Was having kids important to the player character? What kind of culture are they In?

This was a semi-mythic alternate-history where the Icelandic colonies in the New World flourished instead of falling out. The PCs were all members of two neighboring homesteads across the Hudson River from each other, in Piermont and Tarrytown. (This is where I grew up, so it was fun to project it to an alternate past.) They were historically Icelandic. Iceland had technically been Christianized, but they kept all their pagan roots and just added that Christ to their pantheon.

Everyone were farmers / herders on their own homesteads, but in summers they would commonly go on raiding and/or trading missions upriver or along the coast - much like Icelanders. The warlord Melnir still was technically a farmer too, he just had more soldiers than most on his farm. His homestead was in the iron-rich region that is now Redbank, New Jersey, so he made and sold a lot of iron weapons. Melnir was always a part of the background, but I wanted to start introducing wider politics, so I thought his forceful proposal would be an interesting twist.

The widow Borgny the Sharp-Tongued was in her thirties, so still childbearing years, but she had a teenage daughter Vagnhild the Sullen - which added to the fun of Skallagrim's marriage. Their marriage worked out well overall, and Skallagrim became head of his own homestead instead of a carl for someone else. Still, home life was never easy for Skallagrim. Borgny was efficient and aggressive, though, so their homestead did prosper.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 25, 2023, 05:33:17 PM
If you ask an evolutionary psychologist, you'd get an answer that women generally look for "competence" in a mate, which is the ability to acquire resources to nurture their young. And some of the signs of competence are confidence, prestige, and heroic (and perhaps unpredictable) personalities. By contrast, nice, pleasant and predictable does nothing to display a capacity to come out on top should a conflict with another male come up, and that's why these men aren't typically taken seriously as marriage material, all other things being equal.

This would be evolutionarily advantageous -- but that doesn't mean that the brain is necessarily genetically encoded to have those behaviors hard-wired. Both animals and humans have many behaviors and traits that aren't perfect. For example, it would have been great for humans if they could have martial arts genetically hard-coded into our brains, but instead, we have to learn that. Just because a trait would be useful doesn't mean that a species necessarily has that trait.

Humans have a lot of features that aren't great for us. For example, human hips shifted for bipedal walking - which made them worse for childbirth. We have more frequent problems in childbirth than many other mammals. Evolutionary psychology would suggest that men really should be less sexually interested in skinny waifs. They should prefer those who are more likely to have successful healthy births, sturdy women with wide hips. However, that isn't always the case.

There's still a lot to be learned in psychology and neuroscience, so I take it all with a grain of salt. I suspect there's only so much that can be encoded in brain chemistry. We naturally find symmetric features and healthy skin pleasing, but a lot of other details seem to differ from culture to culture. The people considered most attractive to us might not be to a Khoisan hunter-gatherer, and vice-versa.

Quote from: SHARK on February 25, 2023, 08:11:46 PMKushiel's Dart sounds like a fascinating book! How the hell did you come across that book?

I don't remember how I first found the book, but Carey's written a whole series of trilogies in the same world by now -- the setting is basically a fantasy version of Earth where rather than resurrecting and creating Christianity, Yeshua ben Yusuf's blood spilled on the earth to create a divine being called Elua, who wandered the world preaching the message: "Love as thou wilt." Elua's message was so appealing that several angels of the One God Himself left His side to follow Elua, and Elua and the angels eventually settled in a land that came to be called Terre d'Ange (i.e., "Land of Angels"), which is Carey's version of France.

The D'Angelines -- the culture descended from the mortal offspring of these angels -- are more beautiful than normal mortals and are gifted with a religious/magical ritual that unlocks their women's fertility only at the time they choose, giving them effectively perfect birth control and, it can be plausibly inferred, immunity to most STDs. This basically means D'Angeline culture is a complete fantasy of sexual liberation; prostitution is revered as a sacred calling, there is virtually no stigma at all attached to same-sex relations (only on rare occasions where it jeopardizes inheritances), and every style of kink has its own school of erotic philosophy attached to it. Phedre no Delaunay, the heroine of the first trilogy, is the ultimate example of this; she is an anguissette, who experiences pain as pleasure and has a magical gift of healing to help her bear the injuries she incurs with that taste (the red fleck in her iris is the mark which shows this gift, the eponymous "Kushiel's Dart" -- Kushiel is the angel of penitential punishment, who brings mercy through pain).

Now this supposed fantasia has more holes in it than the D'Angelines themselves like to admit, which is one reason the books are a lot more enjoyable to read than one might suspect from this rather Woke-sounding description; the D'Angelines are actually as capable of jealousy, pride, envy, resentment and treachery as any other humans, and the price of "Love as thou wilt" as a philosophy shows its obvious flaws when we see that one major villain's love is intrigue and betrayal for its own sake. But the complexity of Carey's world and characters and the eloquence of her prose still make them a perennial rereading favourite for me.

RE: the OP's thread title.

Because they don't believe they deserve any better.  They secretly believe they deserve to be mistreated.  They expect it to happen.  Even in RPGs.

Quote
Keelia doesn't usually do romance either, but her PC Queale the very serious half-elf Horizon Walker Ranger was successfully courted by Jack's romantic PC Kevan the half-elf Bard, the two PCs are in a committed relationship with their own little sheep farm

Actually Jack just told me his IRL girlfriend doesn't like him doing RPG romance with another real woman, so the two PCs have to break up!  :o

Same reason there are men attracted to crazy like catnip. It's the thrill of power possibly being tamed, or at the very least held on long enough to be ridden, like old analogies of "grabbing a tiger by its tail" or "riding the lightning." Survival is not the goal, breeding is not the goal, the rush to dance with the death urge is the goal.

Now guys are pretty well trained to sublimate their crazy into derring-do and violence. So on average other people are only playthings and status currency when they are "behind the wheel" and the rest are passengers or witnesses -- which explains all racing since time immemorial. Since women were often given the realm of social machinations to 'count coup' then you see how a lot of that human death drive energy is sublimated into this allowed and encouraged sphere. Hence a few psychos in your entourage is mad status worth risking your life over.

Humans are way more similar and readable than they wish to appear.  ;)

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 26, 2023, 08:14:45 AM
Same reason there are men attracted to crazy like catnip. It's the thrill of power possibly being tamed, or at the very least held on long enough to be ridden, like old analogies of "grabbing a tiger by its tail" or "riding the lightning." Survival is not the goal, breeding is not the goal, the rush to dance with the death urge is the goal.

Now guys are pretty well trained to sublimate their crazy into derring-do and violence. So on average other people are only playthings and status currency when they are "behind the wheel" and the rest are passengers or witnesses -- which explains all racing since time immemorial. Since women were often given the realm of social machinations to 'count coup' then you see how a lot of that human death drive energy is sublimated into this allowed and encouraged sphere. Hence a few psychos in your entourage is mad status worth risking your life over.

Humans are way more similar and readable than they wish to appear.  ;)

Greetings!

"The rush to dance with the death urge is the goal." ;D
*Laughing* So true, huh, my friend? Living--or dancing on the edge of the fire...yeah, it's a deep attraction.

Your commentry brought up a particularly sharp and relevant memory for me. When I was in college, I had several professors ask me what my reasons were for joining the Marine Corps, and *volunteering* for the Infantry, and intentionally seeking out th most dangerous missions. Previously, my wife had asked me the same things, when we had first met. On my Marine base, when I was a total beast.

My reasons included pride, tradition, patriotism, and more. A huge motivation though was that I yearned to be at the "Tip of th Spear". I wanted to live my life at maxium speed, pushing everything in me to the limits of that death fire. I wanted to experience the ultimate rush of life on the edges of death and danger. Interestingly, when I asked my wife--girlfriend at the time shortly after our meeting, what brought a good girl like her to a Marine base, full of uber-masculine, old-school Marine animals like me?

She basically said that being around Marines with their macho crazy love for life and death, for doing everything in life with such absolute passion, was irresistable to her. It was primal for her, and so intense that she was simply mezmerized and driven to be around us, and find me. Civilian men, to her, were all boring, weak children by comparison.

Her girlfriends all echoed the same kinds of feelings. It made me laugh at the time, howling in smug glee, even, because I even mentioned, that we Marines didn't give a fuck about Feminism. We all knew women had their place in a relationship and society, and men are men, women are women. Get with the program, or get fucked. We don't give a damn. And we are violent. We are vulgar, we swear every third word, and we drink and smoke. And we are always horn dogs, and wanting to fuck every woman within reach that is willing. We Marines also live in the gym, and love our awesome, strong bodies. We are arrogant and smug in our absolute superiority. And we live each day, driving ourselves in sacrfice and suffering, knowing that every day may be our last. We may well die tomorrow! This is our fate, girl.

She said it's hard for her to explain...but it is all that about us Marines that makes us so attractive and the absolute top of desire.

As I mentioned, at the time, I found her explanations--and her girlfriend's as well--to be howling funny, and perversely the opposite of everything that modern women claimed to be important priorities to them. I thought, well, good. Just like hordes of women that are eager to crawl over broken glass to be with us Marines! Let's see if you can really handle a relationship with a Marine, woman!

I saw the exact same dynamics and motivations play out with all of my Marine buddies at the time, and their girlfriends and fiance's. There were always the packs of eager women, and then there were the focused, determined women that competed to become the main girl, the focus of her Marine's life, at east romantically speaking. The women that became girlfriends typically had to be super-intense, and over-the top crazy to get our attention and win out. Not always really crazy, but intense, and focused, and different, from all the other women.

My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible. Not a party girl or strumpet. And yet--simultaneously, she was also generous, absolutely loyal, and entirely devoted to making me happy in every way possible. She was also intellectual, well-read, smart, and eager to become a gamer. So, that was that. That's how these things go. Part conscious thinking, awareness, intentional stuff, but also some weird biology things pulling and pushing you, driving you under the surface.

Weird. I haven't thought about some of the personal experiences in years.

Very cool insight and commentary, Opaopajr.

Definitely, time for some fresh coffee. I hope everyone's having a good Sunday morning!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

I find it interesting how frequently the "fantasy" of RPGs tracks the realities of the world.  Most people just aren't capable of truly thinking outside themselves.  Hence the girlfriend jealous of a fictional relationship.  Yet, not irrationally so, as close relationships in one context can bleed over into others.  I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.  It's like Agent Smith's explanation of the failure of the first similation in The Matrix: people can't believe in perfect happiness...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2023, 03:32:10 PM
I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

Greetings!

Very true, Stephen! I agree, being able to remain faithful to your spouse and maintaining integrity is critically important to a successful marriage. Faithfulness and integrity are traits that "Bad Boys/Bad Girls" often lack--or find extremely difficult to learn, and to embrace. It's amusing to see how these dynamics and values can also play out in the game. In my "Barbarian Campaign" the players all zoom in on this kind of thing, too. Certainly, it is on all of their minds. I'd at it's equally important for both my male player and the female players--though I would say that for the female players, they are always more dramatic about it. Being paranoid might be hyperbole, but only a bit! ;D Throughout their different relationships, there is always lots of drama and intensity around this stuff. Some demonstrate or express their emotions more intensely to different degrees, of course--but it's always important and pretty motivating, even to what might seem like a more distant, or emotionally aloof player. Over time, even if they don't express it as much, these kinds of relationship dynamics are important and meaningful to them, too.

Yes, of course, I know it's a game and everything--but these games are different. A roleplaying game is not like Monopoly. It just isn't. I have been reminded of this reality on more than on occasion during the campaign. (Other campaigns, too, of course). One instance, one of the female player characters discovered her paramour was *en flagrante* ;D with another woman. Besides all the drama, and the swearing, and some open-mouthed giggling and shrieking amongst them--the *female player* also was crying. She unleashed hot emotions through her character, for sure. Where does the "Player" end, and the "Character" begins? Lots of blurred lines there, and it can get real. Or feel real. The player was *furious* She was seething. The following "screen time" so to speak between her character, the paramour, and *ahem*--the other woman--were intense, as was the ongoing girl bull-session that the other female player characters had with her through ongoing play. My male player's eyes popped wide, as he laughed quietly, nervously, exclaiming, oh, damn. You know the fireworks are gonna fly now!

Later on, the four girls--and the male player--cornered the voluptuous slave girl behind a storage barn. The male player character guarded them and played shotgun. The four women though? Yeah, they beat the other woman senseless. They managed to restrain themselves from killing the beaten woman--but thy definitely wanted to. They were all fierce, and absolutely ruthless. The male player reminded them of the difference in social status, and that the other woman was just doing her thing. She's a slave, just like they all were, previously. The girls pulled their wrath with their fists, and the axe-handles, and managed to heed his caution. But I could see it wasn't easy for her, the most enraged girl, of course--but even her girlfriends all wanted to make the sexy slave girl bleed. They wanted her to suffer. The girls let the sexy slave girl live, but the woman player, her Witch character, told the slave woman that she was going to curse her, and make her fat and ugly, and maybe even curse her womb, so that she would never breed, or if she did, any children she had would all be ugly, horrifying mutants.

Yeah. After that game session, I definitely needed a good cigar. Some of the girls also shrieked and whipped out their cigarettes. Listening to them scream and banter back and forth about the session--all of this out of character--we were having food and unwinding then--but yeah, they get caught up in this game. Very real emotions.

On a personal aside, relating to my earlier story, this episode at the time made me also sympathetic, and darkly amused, as I had a flashback related to what you speak of, about the realities involved. I was dating my wife at the time--we had gotten into a fight, because she didn't want to drive to base, for us to get together. (She lived a good hour's drive away from my base). Still, I had just had a grinding, 10-hour day, humping and doing our thing. I felt that she was being selfish, uncaring, and petty. So, I was feeling angry, hurt, and kind of rejected. In that moment, I suddenly didn't feel like I was a priority for her, which I wasn't used to at all. Normally, I was a total priority for her, like constantly. (She could be super intense, in her own way). Walking back to barracks, my buddy Espinoza comes by, and invites me to join him and three of our buddies to go get some beer and food at the Beach Club. (The Beach Club was an E-Club on our base, right on th beach, too. A combination of a bar, restaurant, and dance club.) On Wednesdays, and the weekends, the place was crawling like a beehive with women. I said sure, fuck it. I hadn't had any chow yet either.

We got to the Beach Club, had some chow, were smoking, and having some drinks. Probably over an hour, maybe close to two hours, just us. The place was nearly deserted, which wasn't too unusual for some Wednesday nights, after all. It was a late blooming Wednesday, and so it was probably around 2000 when the women finally started showing up. Gradually, more and more girls started filtering in. Then the DJ gets busy playing the music, right? I'm at the bar, getting some more drinks for me and my friends. None of us were in "Hunting Mode" and certainly not myself. At the bar, these two cute girls started talking to me. One explains that this is her girlfriend's first time, ever, to a Marine base, and had never dated any Marines. Her girlfriend was shy and you know, kind of dopey and awkward. She was cute, and dressed nice, but I could see she was for real. She was also super sweet, cheerful, and very friendly. I bought her a drink, to make her feel welcomed. Then, some cool song came on, an she asked me if I would dance with her, so she wouldn't feel so dumb and lost? Of course! Gotta do my part to keep the Corp's reputation up for being fun, welcoming, and chivalrous!

So, we danced a few sets. I even told my friend Espinoza that I was being nice, and the girl was super sweet, but I just wanted her to feel welcome and have a good impression. Another drink with Suzie Q, and another fast dance. All fun and cool. Then, a slow song comes on, and Suzie Q lights up, and tugs on my arm, looking up at me. Ok, I said. So, we are out on the floor, and she's close. She was getting tight, and things were feeling warm, for sure. She was holding me tight, her arms moving around my neck. I looked over her shoulder--ten feet away, there was my girlfriend, looking right at me.

*Laughing* Yeah. You know the fireworks hit the wall then. Oh my god. Tears, screaming. Her girlfriend was with her. They had gotten a late start in driving down, because she had changed her mind about being tired rom work, and really wanted to se me, too. So, they got there late, like 2200. Time didn't matter to her typically, we had lots of crazy nights until 0300 or 0400 in the morning. I had to be back in the barracks by 0530. She was always game for late, crazy nights. Obviously, though, I didn't think was coming down, especially after our fight on the phone. (We had to use public phone booths then! *Laughing*). I was harangued and interrogated for *hours* by both my girlfriend, and her girlfriend that came with her. I later found out they had talked to Espinoza, and they had confirmed that everything was casual, and nothing had happened, and I had just been being a nice guy. My girlfriend--lots o tears and rage--she told me she conceded that my intentions were pure--but I had still acted selfishly, and disrespectfully, and disregarded her feelings. She felt *hurt* by what I had done. She said yes, innocent I might be--but I had stupidly played very close to the fire. She also said, even if I was being simple--she KNEW what that other girl wanted! She KNEW what that girl was doing and what she intended, even if I was blind to it! Ok, I get it. I apologized, and survived. ;D Before this, I had never seen her in a hysterical, crying rage. Her girlfriend told me she was seriously tempted to hurt me, somehow. Her girlfriend had that kind of look in her eyes like she wanted to burn me slowly with her cigarettes, and some kind of sharp object. ;D I hadn't seen her girlfriend ever look like that, either. ;D

My girlfriend later proceeded to educate me on the nature of women, and how women behave. She explained that it all begins with her just smiling at me. Then her touching my arm. Then, me buying her a drink. The woman giggling at me, looking at me, talking. Then dancing together. Then moving even closer and *slow dancing* Yeah, all these little things, even if I wasn't aware of it at the time--are part of the woman's recipe. She told me, you need to get it through your head, women pay attention to every little detail, and most every little thing they do towards a man is done for a purpose--to somehow set everything up where she gets you in bed, and she gets into your life! Afterwards, I was careful and intentional about my own behavior, not merely avoiding blowing past stop-lights, but also paying attention to even the *appearance* of guilt or fault on my part. And that women can suddenly become absolutely incoherent when they consider other women being with their man. It can really make them enraged, and for some, can definitely bring out the violent girl. Laws, morals, all that can go right out the window when they think of their man being in the arms of another woman. Like *blink* you're done. It can happen in an instant, or just a few hours, if they simmer on it. Fortunately, my own girlfriend was...more controlled. Good times though. Years later, she could laugh about it.

For the Barbarian Campaign, though, indeed, I've seen how that emotional issues and drama like this can not just be meaningful, but also provoke deep emotional feelings, even tears. Happiness, joy, fear, rage, emotional agony, betrayal. Play the campaign long enough, where they get into their characters, and these emotions can be on full throttle for sure. My plyers also went crazy when they had returned to the Alben shore in an epic raiding mission, and three members of the party chose to return to their homeland and their old life. Geeso. Yeah, my players were enraged and in tears then, too. Truth be told, it was also emotionally challenging also for myself, the emotions were there, but the characters had to be true to who they were. Emotionally intense game sessions are good though!Fantastic! Sometimes crazy, and sometimes not always *comfortable*--but still deep and rewarding. I like complex game play. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK   

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2023, 03:32:10 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

I find it interesting how frequently the "fantasy" of RPGs tracks the realities of the world.  Most people just aren't capable of truly thinking outside themselves.  Hence the girlfriend jealous of a fictional relationship.  Yet, not irrationally so, as close relationships in one context can bleed over into others.  I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.  It's like Agent Smith's explanation of the failure of the first similation in The Matrix: people can't believe in perfect happiness...

Greetings!

Very true, Eirikrautha! Not irrationally so, indeed. We constantly promote the idea that it's a different game, where *you put yourself in the shoes of your character*. Yeah, for those that are good players, and really invested, there will definitely be bleed over on full display.

One of my female players became very sad and crying when her unicorn friend was killed. It's my female player that has a Paladin. Sometimes, I think some events in the game can also really provoke changes in the character, and how they behave and think. After that episode where her Unicorn friend died, the Paladin player has become much more bloodthirsty, ruthless, and dark. She's on some kind of inner soul-journey to bring light and sunshine into the world. Hope and righteousness and all that. While she is a Barbarian Jarl's wife, looking after her own children, and keeping an interested and careful eye on the throne to the barbarian Vandar Kingdom. All while she struggles and resists becoming an absolutely ruthless barbarian princess.

Trying to blend a quasi-Christian ethos with a Pagan barbarian culture firmly in a dark ages of honour, blood feuds, vendettas, ruthless vengeance, scheming, and always trying to secure your family and children in a violent world full of competition and rivals...is challenging. ;D

As for the Woke--thy are entirely brainwashed and corrupted by Marxism. Their whole world view is founded on a Marxist-Utopianism, that is also entirely irrational, atheistic, and specifically and hatefully anti-Christian. Thy themselves are their own "Gods". They, themselves, full of their own pride and self glory, believe they are the arbiters of morality, what is right and wrong, and what is Good and Evil. That is the first Sin, straight out of the Bible, from the Serpent. The Five "I Will's" of the original *Rebellion*

The Woke are disgusting. They twist and corrupt everything they get their hands on, including our gaming. The examples are everywhere in how they corrupt every damned little thing in the game. Races, classes, in-game religion, urban life, everything. Oh my God. It makes me grind my teeth, my friend! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

In a related, but somewhat tangential point to the primary question of "Why Do You Think Women Love the "Bad Boys" So Much?" is that it has been interesting and fun, watching how the players have changed gears mentally as they have adapted to a society and culture that is more *Dark Ages*, and less *Medieval*. Like with encountering a societal economy that is based primarily on a Barter System, with some growing aspects of a "Mixed Economy". I've had to change gears as well. For example, there are no "Taverns". There are no Inns, or Hotels. There are no restaurants, coffee shops, or even really any kind of "Commercial" establishment. Everything is based on barter, trading goods and services, and favours. Bullion of course is acceptable, but even then, that's been primarily used as compensation or a Blacksmith to supply *large* quantities o armour and weapons. Gold and silver coins have some value, of course, but it is more in a kind of abstract representation of wealth, glory, success, and prestige, as a shorthand of value, than having some real kind of specific value attached to whatever kind of coinage in question.

Imagine a society where the social hierarchy is based on:
(1) Warriors
(2) Craftsmen
(3) Farmers
(4) Slaves

Warriors are at the top, though there is only a modest degree of status differential from Craftsmen to Farmers. The more steep degree would be that of the Slaves. However, Dark Ages style of slavery, as generally embraced by the Norse, Slavs, and Celts, was in some ways pretty fluid. YOU too, could become a slave one day if ill fortune befell you, and soon. Likewise, you could be elevated out of the status of being a slave through reward; "purchasing" your way out; or sometimes for a specified time limit, as a form of punishment. Some similarities can also be seen as part o how the Norse Law Codes functioned, in regards to being exiled as a form of legal punishment, and declared as an Outlaw. Being declared an Outlaw was not necessarily a life-time sentence, but could be limited to a few years, say, 3, 5, or 10 years, for example. Being declared an Outlaw for Life, of course, also existed.

As much as the campaign has developed into a brutal, harsh, Dark Ages themed Barbarian campaign--you would also rightly think that such a shift entails a "Low Magic" setting, and which is otherwise also technologically primitive. Such a reasonable assumption however, is also in for some distinct surprises! The Norse, like the Germanic tribes, and the Celts, and the Slavs further east--as well as the Baltic tribal cultures and the Finns--they all embraced a wild, strange, Pagan world that was literally full of magic. Magic, magic spells, magical, supernatural creatures and animals, are seemingly everywhere. Terrifying monsters, and supernatural creatures, as well as various kinds of Faerie creatures and races, as well as dark, evil and wicked demons, are also far more often encountered than is expected, certainly in a "low Magic" campaign, but also, even in a "Normal" magic campaign. It almost seems like a dichotomy--on one hand it's brutal, primitive, and low magic, while on the other hand, it's very HIGH magic. I've sprinkled in Faerie spirits, demons, Forest Gnomes, wicked Hulda women, evil giants, friendly giants, races of savage beastmen, besides megalithic animals. Add these all in, and then dial it up a little more, especially in ancient locations, especially magical or spiritually significant areas, and at spiritually significant times and festivals throughout the year.

Then, of course, there is the importance of Honour. Of a person's Reputation. These two concepts are absolutely crucial social dynamics, and can even feed into influencing how the economy works--for and against an individual, based on what people think of that person's personal honour, Reputation, as well as social status. So, that's something I've had to keep track o and manage, is the social status of each of the Player Characters and NPC's, and how other people evaluate them in regards to their Honour, their Reputation, and then, their overall social status. Even a common Woodsman, say, can carry considerable authority for example, if he has a reputation for being honourable, generous, a man of his word, maybe a *clever* fellow, as well a being manly, strong,  and courageous--despite the fact that his overall social status is modestly viewed at being similar to a farmer in status. The Norse culture has a surprisingly *FLUID* Social culture. Things can change for an individual pretty quickly--but also not necessarily particularly linked to their perceived *wealth*--but often more importantly, things like their courage, their hard work ethic, honesty, good sense of humour, generosity, and things like that, as well as loyalty, trustworthiness, and a sense of good judgment. So, the Players have spent some time getting into that--the Norse value system, and the kinds of behavior, the kinds of attitudes, that are held in the greatest regard, and likewise, the behaviors and attitudes that will bring disapproval, judgment, and even damnation from the local population. That's a process that has been very enjoyable, too, even though it has also been a process over time.

I highly recommend changing campaign styles, grounding a campaign more in ancient, dark ages, and medieval dynamics and foundations, and getting primitive with a barter economy. These changes I have embraced have been very interesting, entertaining, and I believe successful, in changing the campaign experience to something that is definitely more immersive, as well as fun, and deeply engaging.

Good stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

A bit of humour--a friend of mine recently proclaimed to me, "You have DM'd an entirely harsh, brutal, toxic, misogynistic, and hate-filled campaign! You've had your players be grossly humiliated, tortured, raped, and enslaved! Look at all the awful and terrible things you have subjected them to!"

*Laughing*

Strangely, my players have all not only managed to endure all of the terrible harshness and brutality, all of the terrible, toxic masculinity--but they have deeply enjoyed it. They have all enjoyed being treated like physical beasts, appraised and valued and measured emotionally, sexually, physically. Looked at for their strength, how hard they can work, how well they can breed.

The players have had to dig deep, and show real courage, and honour, and loyalty. They have had to fight against strong odds, and to think, and plan, and operate as a strong team. All that stuff, while knowing how everything has consequences. Death, Dishonor, Friendship, or Love. Whatever they at involved with, there are consequences, results, downriver. Their choices matter.

Each of the players knew, if they didn't figure out the program, their player character would literally be fed to the crabs at the shoreline, trapped inside a cage as the icy waves came to them, or *bloodeagled* by the light of a great bonfire as the barbarians celebrated. They have loved every step and session of the campaign, and have never taken anything personally. They have also been very appreciative of my own efforts devoted to bringing this terrifying world to life for them. They've exclaimed it's like better than any movie, because THEY are in the movie, and yet, the world directs it in all kinds of realistic ways--I'm just the neutral Skald that records their episodes.

I have never used any "Safety Tools" or "Session Zeroes" where we have some kind of emotional struggle session, either. When asked about the campaign, I just told them, adults only, medieval D&D. Lots of war, hatred, sex, crazy magic, and adventures. And heroism, STRENGTH AND HONOUR, and hopefully promoting a world where Good triumphs over Evil, and righteousness can prevail.

That's pretty much how I've always run the campaign, this on as well as others.

My friend laughed, and told me, that's because you have normal adults as players, who are also gamer geeks that love history and mythology, and they trust you.

So, yeah. That's been cool, too. It made me laugh though when he told me, especially about hazing me for not having safety tools and struggle sessions! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 ;) Heh, I like to remind people that humans are a: calculating. social. predator.  :o Higher order thinking, tool using, yet weak in most physical weapons and defenses except for endurance.

There are no permutations where that does not manifest violence somewhere along the way in a world where we must survive. Oh, you can claim peacefulness and pacifism all you want, but life feeds on life. And to amplify our efforts we do it socially. And since we can think in higher orders, we feed upon life with a greater depth of awareness.

This does not protect us at all from ourselves, it just shows greater depths in our malice and masking of it. No, to eschew physical violence only merely prioritizes social, mental, emotional, and spiritual violence to accomplish our goals... and the greater need for conspiracy. Cut off any sphere and watch other spheres develop, raise the stakes and view the need for insidious planning.

Humans are delightfully fun reads.  ;) I do enjoy us so. Enjoying the game of masks, theater, pretend, roleplaying, is a wonderful saunter into that inner/outer space. Just choose your companions well and walk back when done because there's grit and grime you tread on.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM
The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

Quote from: S'mon on February 26, 2023, 05:39:27 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2023, 03:32:10 PM
I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I'm more with Stephen Tannhauser here. RPGs are often unrealistic wish-fulfillment, and that's a good thing. For the topic of this thread -- realistically, if the virtuous knight has a romance with a "bad girl" - it will probably result in tons of fights and a nasty breakup later on with later attempts at revenge.

If the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance. This especially since the player doesn't get the payoff of actual sex, but have to deal with the headaches of breakup and fights. That was how I approached things in my vikings game. There were tense scenes and relationship troubles and fights, but the results were mostly positive. I didn't try to impose realistic consequences for engaging with the "bad boy" / "bad girl". Despite SHARK's words over how barbaric his game is, it seems to me that his game was similar - with PC attempts at romance usually ending up in their favor.

---

I enjoy some grimdark games like Call of Cthulhu, but I think that unrealistic positivity sometimes gets overly badmouthed. There's nothing wrong with a game where virtuous knights fight for the glory of God and eventually win, though mourning those who fell in the struggle. Where a knight may have a romance with the "bad girl" who eventually turns over a new leaf. The same goes for more wokish romances, like LGBT relationships.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
I'm more with Stephen Tannhauser here. RPGs are often unrealistic wish-fulfillment, and that's a good thing. For the topic of this thread -- realistically, if the virtuous knight has a romance with a "bad girl" - it will probably result in tons of fights and a nasty breakup later on with later attempts at revenge.

If the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance.

Hmm. I was wondering why this was making my heard hurt. What's wrong with this picture? Then I realised - you swapped out versimilitude for realistic!

You are smart enough to know that those are not the same things. I expect you just ignored that in order to make the point you wanted to make, rather than being deliberately disingenuous. But it's not a good habit.

Engage with what people actually say. We're talking about the feeling of truthiness that allows for suspension of disbelief, not actual slice-of-life kitchen-sink realism. If we can believe that the shining heroic paragon of virtue at least has a chance to redeem the fallen woman, that meets the versimilitude standard. Of course we know that in our own lives, it rarely works out that way (I certainly know it!). But it's not even something that can't happen/has never happened IRL. People do occasionally reform, even IRL - and that's without encountering a CHA 18 Paladin.

There are real people who have taken the path of SHARK's players' characters - and succeeded.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
The same goes for more wokish romances, like LGBT relationships.

Surely you're not saying that IRL LGBT relationships can't be functional/successful?  ;D

I think most non-woke people don't object to the portrayal of a functional LGBT relationship, but do tend to object to portrayals of them as inherently better and purer than 'cis' heterosexual relationships. More generally, it's the feel that "these people aren't really people". I first noticed it in the 1990s with some of the Star Trek: The Next Generation novels, so a bit before modern Woke culture. But you can get it in a lot of bad fiction, including non-Woke fiction. Harem anime fantasies where the hyper-competent female characters all revolve around a singularly un-magnetic, unprepossessing male lead, for instance.

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 01:22:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
I'm more with Stephen Tannhauser here. RPGs are often unrealistic wish-fulfillment, and that's a good thing. For the topic of this thread -- realistically, if the virtuous knight has a romance with a "bad girl" - it will probably result in tons of fights and a nasty breakup later on with later attempts at revenge.

If the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance.

Hmm. I was wondering why this was making my heard hurt. What's wrong with this picture? Then I realised - you swapped out versimilitude for realistic!

You are smart enough to know that those are not the same things. I expect you just ignored that in order to make the point you wanted to make, rather than being deliberately disingenuous. But it's not a good habit.

Engage with what people actually say. We're talking about the feeling of truthiness that allows for suspension of disbelief, not actual slice-of-life kitchen-sink realism. If we can believe that the shining heroic paragon of virtue at least has a chance to redeem the fallen woman, that meets the versimilitude standard. Of course we know that in our own lives, it rarely works out that way (I certainly know it!). But it's not even something that can't happen/has never happened IRL. People do occasionally reform, even IRL - and that's without encountering a CHA 18 Paladin.

I didn't intend to misrepresent, but I also don't want to get too caught up in semantics. I'll try to bring up some examples to see if we're disagreeing. To be clear, I think it can be a fun choice when an RPG has both:

1) "typical results that are improbable in real life" -- like bad girls turning good,

and

2) "things that can't happen / have never happened in real life" -- like divinely/magically good power in the world

Stephen Tannhauser's example of Kushiel's Dart is a good example of both #1 and #2. Phedre is of divine descent, and has a magical power that effects her relationships - like when she teaches the viking warlord who captures her how to give pleasure to women.

In the RPG world, a paladin or divinely-inspired knight would be an example of #2. A woke-ish example of #2 could be the Blue Rose RPG, where a big part of the politics of Aldis is the Scepter of the Blue Rose that determines (once) if the person touching it is of Light alignment.

---

It seemed to me that Eirikrautha's demand "people must behave like people" was against cases like Phedre in Kushiel's Dart, or the Scepter of the Blue Rose.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 02:06:40 PM
It seemed to me that Eirikrautha's demand "people must behave like people" was against cases like Phedre in Kushiel's Dart, or the Scepter of the Blue Rose.

No. Detect Alignment & such magic is hardly a big* deal. A setting where a Communist society works, because people no longer have actual human motivations, would trigger the feeling, though. Like I said, some depictions of Next Gen era Star Trek trigger that feeling for me. Judging by all the old arguments here, the Blue Rose society may be a marginal case, though I don't know enough to judge. If all the State Commissars are impeccable paragons of virtue, that may be Soviet Realism but it ain't versimilitude.  ;D OTOH fantasies of a somewhat implausibly nice Social Democracy don't in themselves seem any less un-versimilitudinus than fantasies of a somewhat implausibly nice Feudal Monarchy. We can generally buy into "These are the good guys, warts and all." It's when we're told "Everything About These Guys is Perfect - Perfect, I Tell You! When they appear to do bad things, really it's for the Greater Good!" - that certainly sticks in my craw, whether from Left or Right.

*I think the objectors generally felt more that the Magic Deer's definition (the authors' definition) of Light/Good was off, since it didn't align with theirs.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PMIf the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance.

Which is par for the course in gaming generally, it should also be noted -- very few RPGs really tend to enforce what TVTropes calls the "Surprisingly Realistic Outcome" for virtually any in-game endeavour, whether it be the effect of romance on character goals, the psychological trauma of a life of constant violence, the logical legal and economic fallout from the typical PC party's actions, the hubristic temptations of world-shaking magic or artifacts (aside from explicit curses -- I still get a laugh out of the "Major Malevolent Effects" artifact table from 1E DMG), and so on.

That said, as Lo Pan observed in Big Trouble in Little China, "There are always others, are there not? You seem to be one who knows the difficulties between men and women, how seldom it works out ... And yet we all keep trying, like fools!" (giggle)

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 02:32:03 PM
OTOH fantasies of a somewhat implausibly nice Social Democracy don't in themselves seem any less un-versimilitudinus than fantasies of a somewhat implausibly nice Feudal Monarchy. We can generally buy into "These are the good guys, warts and all." It's when we're told "Everything About These Guys is Perfect - Perfect, I Tell You! When they appear to do bad things, really it's for the Greater Good!" - that certainly sticks in my craw, whether from Left or Right.

*I think the objectors generally felt more that the Magic Deer's definition (the authors' definition) of Light/Good was off, since it didn't align with theirs.

You mentioned some TNG-era Star Trek novels that seemed like this to you, but I haven't read any of those. Are there any specific examples from RPGs that come across that way?

Among novels, left-learning stuff that stuck in my craw was Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis novels (aka Lillith's Brood). Though it wasn't so much that the alien Oankali were portrayed as perfect, but that their hideous evil was portrayed as imperfection. Among right-leaning, Poul Anderson's The High Crusade was pretty insane in how it portrayed medieval English as hyper-competent perfection.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 03:08:22 PM
Among right-leaning, Poul Anderson's The High Crusade was pretty insane in how it portrayed medieval English as hyper-competent perfection.

Heh - I read that. As a comedy, I thought it was fine. As a serious tale of the English Master Race's Destiny to Conquer the Galaxy it would have been obnoxious.

I'm struggling to think of specifically RPG examples of 'Obnoxious Perfection'.  I do feel that the versimilitude of WoTC's worldbuilding crossed the thermocline with 5e. The earlier not particularly woke stuff from say 2014-16 isn't any better than the later Woke stuff for me though; it's all terrible.

BTW traditionally I think Obnoxious Perfection was actually more common with Reactionary authors than with Progressive authors, at least in US SF and fantasy. Traditional Progressive attitude tended to be more "We know we're imperfect, but we're trying", where Reactionary authors had a lot of 'Strong Man'  and 'Perfect Society' fantasies. I hear Spinrad's The Iron Dream satirised this Fascistic tendency.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 03:08:22 PM
You mentioned some TNG-era Star Trek novels that seemed like this to you, but I haven't read any of those. Are there any specific examples from RPGs that come across that way?

Oh, I just thought of one - but again it's right-wing, in the US sense of right-liberal. The Reformation Coalition in GDW's Traveller: The New Era (1990) attack other planets and take their stuff, while being presented as moral paragons who like to quote Immanuel Kant.  The attitude rather presages Bush-era Neo-Conservatism. They try to justify it in-universe, but I don't think that helps.

I get the impression that a lot of modern Leftist products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians probably embody this trope, but forgive my not having read them.  ;D

The Imperium of WH40K is an odd one, Games Workshop intended it as an extreme dystopia, but some fanboys do seem to treat it non-ironically as a Very Good Thing. And a lot more do so ironically.

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 03:53:46 PMGames Workshop intended it as an extreme dystopia, but some fanboys do seem to treat it non-ironically as a Very Good Thing.

There's always been that school of creative thought which specializes in trying to imagine "what Set of Extremely Implausible Circumstances X-Y-Z would make Behaviour Patterns A/B/C justified/sensible/practical?" The entire appeal of the Imperium of Man is that literally everything else in the galaxy is orders of magnitude worse. And part of the worldbuilding in Carey's "Kushiel" series is exactly about addressing the reasons why her sexual utopia can't work for humans without supernatural advantages.

The difficulty is when people think that depicting behaviours as working in fantastic settings, because that's the only place they can work, is never done for any reason but to endorse them in reality.

The campaign does sound like a blast, and well-fitted for your players.

I am amused by the specification of consequences, however, because when I ran a similar thing as a one-off for one player (with the intent that it would be a side adventure during some time when the main group wasn't available), she also earned her way up the hierarchy to favored slave status, was allowed to demonstrate her herb-lore and the like...and then poisoned the cask of sacred mead right before a ritual feast, cut the throats of every drugged warrior, set fire to the village and picked off the survivors with a previously-stashed bow and arrows, then vanished into the woods to raid and harass other not-Viking communities, where she continued to poison wells, burn fields, and otherwise used the knowledge of the culture that she had gained as a how-to of how to take it apart.

There were a few key differences.  The first being that it was a one-player temporary adventure, so it lacked the key social component and mutual interplay that your players had.  The second is that the PC had a strong national identity, and wasn't willing to let herself be broken down and remade as a not-Viking thrall (and that she trusted that she wouldn't get killed in a solo temporary adventure and that help would arrive when the group reconvened).

But I am amused at how exactly a lot of the themes got mirrored in this case; just as your PCs needed to adapt to a foreign harsh culture or die, my not-Vikings need to understand that there were PCs in the nation they were raiding, and that who they thought was a simple slave could turn into an utterly focused, utterly ruthless, and utterly deadly murdering monster.  They fucked around, and found out.

It also amused me how totally my player bought into the social structures of honor and used them as guides to what she could get away with doing, because no one would think that anyone would be stone-cold psycho enough to systematically murder kids out foraging as a means to both demoralize a town and cut them off from a vital low-effort resources, which meant that there was no actual commonly-agreed on way to deal with the problem of someone doing just that.

It also dawned on me after the adventure, to my delight, that what the PC had done was use the actual lessons of the not-Vikings and historic actual Vikings.  She used her superior (and supernatural) knowledge of the woodland and ability to navigate through trackless wilderness just like the Viking used their superior seamanship and navigation to keep a moat between her and coordinated hostile response, and just as the historic Vikings attacked lesser-defended areas rich and loot and then faded away, so did she do the same (only with murder instead of pillage as her goal).  But considering neither I nor the PC had planned the comparison, I was really happy that I could draw it later, and nearly get an earnest-but-not-wise NPC murdered when he glowingly spoke to her and referred to her campaign of terror and guerilla warfare as "being a better <not-Viking> than the <not-Vikings>."

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 27, 2023, 04:18:20 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 03:53:46 PMGames Workshop intended it as an extreme dystopia, but some fanboys do seem to treat it non-ironically as a Very Good Thing.

There's always been that school of creative thought which specializes in trying to imagine "what Set of Extremely Implausible Circumstances X-Y-Z would make Behaviour Patterns A/B/C justified/sensible/practical?" The entire appeal of the Imperium of Man is that literally everything else in the galaxy is orders of magnitude worse. And part of the worldbuilding in Carey's "Kushiel" series is exactly about addressing the reasons why her sexual utopia can't work for humans without supernatural advantages.

The difficulty is when people think that depicting behaviours as working in fantastic settings, because that's the only place they can work, is never done for any reason but to endorse them in reality.

I'd partly agree with this -- but on the other hand, I'm wary about judging people for engaging in fantasy because it's in principle about endorsing such in real life. An extreme of that is saying that killing orcs is endorsing killing in reality.

I'd add a note about comedy. S'mon mentioned judging Poul Anderson's _The High Crusade_ was fine as comedy -- but he also cited harem anime fantasies as an example of rubbing the wrong way. While I haven't seen any of them, I suspect harem anime fantasies are also pitched as comedy.

Fantasy and/or comedy falls into a grey area, where I'm more open to the work than if it came across as politically serious, but it can also cross a line to the point of grating. And the line for where it grates is going to vary based on one's culture and politics.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
I'd add a note about comedy. S'mon mentioned judging Poul Anderson's _The High Crusade_ was fine as comedy -- but he also cited harem anime fantasies as an example of rubbing the wrong way. While I haven't seen any of them, I suspect harem anime fantasies are also pitched as comedy.

I said harem anime fell into the the 'these people aren't really people' category - "Harem anime fantasies where the hyper-competent female characters all revolve around a singularly un-magnetic, unprepossessing male lead, for instance" - the female characters only exist to service the male fantasy. Or vice versa, in the Reverse Harem Animes a female friend of mine likes. That's not a problem with the Englishmen in The High Crusade. It would be an issue for their alien enemies, if it were a serious book. I read a Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosigan (sp?) SF book where the enemy fit exactly that trope; they seemed entirely un-proactive, barely reactive, existing only for the hero to show off his awesomeness. And that was supposed to be a non-comedy.

I didn't say the harem anime rubbed me up the wrong way, though. I tried to watch one called something like DxD and it bored me, but it didn't annoy me.  ;D

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 05:29:34 PM
existing only for the hero to show off his awesomeness.

As you might imagine, I avoid this trope in my GMing. My games do tend to have a high PC kill count.  ;D Some players can find it dispiriting, but most relish the challenge, and the sense of achievement when they win.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 05:08:57 PMI'd partly agree with this -- but on the other hand, I'm wary about judging people for engaging in fantasy because it's in principle about endorsing such in real life. An extreme of that is saying that killing orcs is endorsing killing in reality.

I'd actually agree with that -- my fault for being a little over-verbose. There is a line between indulging in fantasy and endorsing an analogous reality, and I think most sane players know it and can be trusted to know it.

The Woke simply try to exploit the fact that the line between fantasy and reality can be confused to appoint themselves moral arbiters of how any given fantasy should approach that line.

QuoteI'd add a note about comedy. ...Fantasy and/or comedy falls into a grey area, where I'm more open to the work than if it came across as politically serious, but it can also cross a line to the point of grating. And the line for where it grates is going to vary based on one's culture and politics.

Also agreed; and as above, the problem is not so much the existence of such a line as the arrogance involved in any one group daring to appoint themselves arbiters of how everyone else chooses to approach it.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 27, 2023, 04:18:20 PM
There's always been that school of creative thought which specializes in trying to imagine "what Set of Extremely Implausible Circumstances X-Y-Z would make Behaviour Patterns A/B/C justified/sensible/practical?" The entire appeal of the Imperium of Man is that literally everything else in the galaxy is orders of magnitude worse.

It's a bit of an aside, but the Leagues of Votann, as currently written, sort of undercut that. I'm sure GW will change that soon enough.

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 01:22:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
I'm more with Stephen Tannhauser here. RPGs are often unrealistic wish-fulfillment, and that's a good thing. For the topic of this thread -- realistically, if the virtuous knight has a romance with a "bad girl" - it will probably result in tons of fights and a nasty breakup later on with later attempts at revenge.

If the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance.

Hmm. I was wondering why this was making my heard hurt. What's wrong with this picture? Then I realised - you swapped out versimilitude for realistic!

You are smart enough to know that those are not the same things. I expect you just ignored that in order to make the point you wanted to make, rather than being deliberately disingenuous. But it's not a good habit.

Engage with what people actually say. We're talking about the feeling of truthiness that allows for suspension of disbelief, not actual slice-of-life kitchen-sink realism. If we can believe that the shining heroic paragon of virtue at least has a chance to redeem the fallen woman, that meets the versimilitude standard. Of course we know that in our own lives, it rarely works out that way (I certainly know it!). But it's not even something that can't happen/has never happened IRL. People do occasionally reform, even IRL - and that's without encountering a CHA 18 Paladin.

There are real people who have taken the path of SHARK's players' characters - and succeeded.

Greetings!

Yes, definitely, my friend! I have always believed that verisimilitude is critically important element that really raises the RPG above and beyond different, standard "Games". Dynamic effects, actions, reactions, and consequences that are, if sometime also fantastic, also plausible. I often remind my players that "Truth is stranger than Fiction."

The Adventuring Group

Khaeden (M) Danevar Human, Barbarian; Romantically involved with Sevaina, a mystical and prominent Volva.

Margeba (F) Danevar Human, Witch; Romantically involved with Thostar, a veteran warrior and friend of Jarl Hardrad and Jarl Vorgen.
Gelda (F) Samben/Haadrim (Half Troll) Barbarian; Romantically involved with Finndir the Blacksmith and warrior, also a friend of Jarl Hardrad and Jarl Vorgen.
Ksenya (F) High Elf, Sorceress; Romantically involved with Hardrad, a prominent Jarl, sworn in service to the powerful Chieftain, Kalbar.
Dorlogga (F) Samben Human, Paladin; Romantically involved with Vorgen, a powerful Jarl, sworn in service to the Chieftain, Kalbar. The Jarl Vorgen is also a loyal and steadfast friend of Jarl Hardrad.

NPC Members of the Adventuring Group
Ghalden (M) Samben Human, Paladin; Befriended and romantically involved with Polaga, a mystical volva, and friend of Sevaina. Unbeknowst by Ghalden, the Volva Polaga was pregnant by him, and gave birth to a set of twin daughters--named Ghaandra and Polanya.
Varwulf (M) Danevar Human, Cleric; Befriended by Halvar, a mystical Gothi that travels throughout the land. The Gothi Halvar is also a friend of Jarl Hardrad, Jarl Vorgen, and the Chieftain Kalbar. Varwulf became involved in a romantic relationship with Jhaandi, a noble warrior woman and sister of Jarl Vorgen.
Oggdan (M) Danevar Human, Barbarian; Befriended and romantically involved with Lyuba, a slave-girl and household member of Finndir the Blacksmith. Lyuba becomes pregnant with Oggdan's child, and gives birth to their son, named Oggwulf, Son of Oggdan.

I don't over-saturate game scenes with absolutely historically-based sadism and brutal gore, for example. I do, however, layer verisimilitude and historical realism, like adding good spices to a meal. There was one episode where assassins from a rival, neighboring kingdom had infiltrated Haedenburg, and had attempted to assassinate the two Jarls--and the player characters. In the ensuing craziness, two of the player character's children--one from the Elf Sorceress, Ksenya, and one from the female Paladin. Dorlogga--were kidnapped by members of the assassin team. What followed from that was a frantic pursuit through the town, out into the dark forest, and eventually a three-day pursuit that ended in a climactic fight at some clifftop ruins, overlooking the crashing shores of the sea, far below. The children were going to be sacrificed to the Dark Gods. The player characters were  victorious against the assassins, and rescued their children. There was an evil witch that was in league with the assassins, and was conducting the sacrificial ceremony, raising her glittering dagger high to plunge it into the crying children.

The player characters willingly had the evil witch burned alive on a bonfire. Later on, through investigations, interrogations, and some torture sessions, the player characters had discovered that the teams of assassins had not acted alone--they had had help from traitors in their midst. A member of Jarl Vorgen's Warband, Ganwulf,--was the lover to Sigbruna the Witch--who is a companion, friend, and apprentice of the Player Character Witch, Margeba. Ganwulf and Sigbruna had conspired together to coordinate with the assassin teams by providing knowledge of floorplans and guard security--and by distracting loyal guards at selected, key times.

The Player Characters supervised the ritual ceremony where Ganwulf and Sigbruna were *Blood-Eagled*and sacrificed to the Vandar's Pagan gods.

I periodically exhort the players to always remember, that Thandor is not our modern world. It is similar, but nonetheless, a fantasy world. I tell them to always remember and to focus that you are YOUR CHARACTER, in a dark, primitive, medieval world. The families, the culture, the expectations, the economy, the way of life, everything--is radically different. Quite aside from, and in addition to the magic, the monsters, and different supernatural and spiritual dynamics. I've told them to get your mind INTO the mind, the soul, the consciousness, of YOUR CHARACTER. Everything your character believes, eels, thinks, and values, their behavior, and actions, let it flow. Gradually, as you "Get to Know" this character of yours, you will be able to "step into them" like putting on a different set of clothes. It will become easier and easier for you over time.

*Laughing* They've done very well. They have exclaimed it's like, playing in Thandor is like a drug, and a food. Absolutely exciting, delicious, and mind-blowing.

I've asked them, why didn't they seek to escape? Why have they chosen to join the Vandar? The players have explained to me that the Vandar--just like our own historical Norse--are compelling. They are not simple, caricatures, but deep, and complex. They have reasons for doing what they do. They have a primitive, brutal culture that has been established through long centuries of time--hundreds and hundreds of years--and thrive in a harsh and dangerous land. The climate, the land, the monsters--the other tribes--all make them harsh and brutal. What would being nice and peaceful get them? It would get them killed or enslaved. Or just eaten! So, they have grown to admire, empathize, and identify with the Vandar.

Now you have them being friends, sharing danger in battle, struggles in survival, and having children together. Forging love and bonding and relationships, so it has all become their new home, and their new family. 

I think that level of investment and engagement goes along with--and is hugely inspired by verisimilitude. Which I think is a DM's huge responsibility and obligation. The DM has a lot of work cut out for them, for sure. But it I very rewarding, especially when you have a really good group of players.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Somewhat off-topic, so please forgive me for this...

...but this thread happened to be posted at a time when I'm rethinking barbarians in fantasy fiction, so the old mind is a-spinning, and I just want to say that I feel that the barbarian is perhaps the purest form of fantasy in fantasy fiction and gaming, even more so than wizards. 

Why do I feel this?  Let's look back at our early childhoods.  How many of us knew people who could run faster, jump higher, or pick up more things when we were in our toddler and early childhood years?  How many of us bragged around the water fountain at school that our dads could drink the whole ocean?  How many of us balked at the seemingly nonsensical rules that were expected in civilized society, as we learned them and were punished if we talked in class, played with toys in church, and so forth?  Who had friends, cousins, siblings, or parents who loved sneaking up on you and giving you a quick start?  How many of us loved the outdoors, wanted to know all the animals and things, and had to be forced into the tub?  How many of us were bullied, or wrestled with older kids who always won?

The barbarian archetype captures the essence of those feelings, and presents us with a physically capable, unbound by society, hero.  You can jump, climb, run, swim, and do any physical thing better than a non-barbarian.  You're never surprised, and, in fact, can punish those who surprise you.  You're strong, capable, and a brilliant fighter.  You can survive outdoors without ever having to come in and bathe and put on civilized clothes.  Your code, your ethos, your very morality is *yours*, not one foisted upon you by civilization, but those things which you hold dear and true and sacred.  You act, you don't react.  Swift, capable, and free, you are what you wanted to be as a small child.

That is why I feel that it is the purest form of fantasy.  The wizard fantasy comes later in development, as you learn that the rules are there, so seek to find ways to break the rules.  The barbarian fantasy comes from early yearnings to be as fast, strong, wise, and free as you feel your favorite adult role models are.

There's a lot of power in the barbarian archetype.  Shame that it's been reduced to semi-magical berserker in much fiction and almost all RPGS, instead of the anthros unbound that it truly is.

Quote from: robertliguori on February 27, 2023, 04:36:49 PM
The campaign does sound like a blast, and well-fitted for your players.

I am amused by the specification of consequences, however, because when I ran a similar thing as a one-off for one player (with the intent that it would be a side adventure during some time when the main group wasn't available), she also earned her way up the hierarchy to favored slave status, was allowed to demonstrate her herb-lore and the like...and then poisoned the cask of sacred mead right before a ritual feast, cut the throats of every drugged warrior, set fire to the village and picked off the survivors with a previously-stashed bow and arrows, then vanished into the woods to raid and harass other not-Viking communities, where she continued to poison wells, burn fields, and otherwise used the knowledge of the culture that she had gained as a how-to of how to take it apart.

There were a few key differences.  The first being that it was a one-player temporary adventure, so it lacked the key social component and mutual interplay that your players had.  The second is that the PC had a strong national identity, and wasn't willing to let herself be broken down and remade as a not-Viking thrall (and that she trusted that she wouldn't get killed in a solo temporary adventure and that help would arrive when the group reconvened).

But I am amused at how exactly a lot of the themes got mirrored in this case; just as your PCs needed to adapt to a foreign harsh culture or die, my not-Vikings need to understand that there were PCs in the nation they were raiding, and that who they thought was a simple slave could turn into an utterly focused, utterly ruthless, and utterly deadly murdering monster.  They fucked around, and found out.

It also amused me how totally my player bought into the social structures of honor and used them as guides to what she could get away with doing, because no one would think that anyone would be stone-cold psycho enough to systematically murder kids out foraging as a means to both demoralize a town and cut them off from a vital low-effort resources, which meant that there was no actual commonly-agreed on way to deal with the problem of someone doing just that.

It also dawned on me after the adventure, to my delight, that what the PC had done was use the actual lessons of the not-Vikings and historic actual Vikings.  She used her superior (and supernatural) knowledge of the woodland and ability to navigate through trackless wilderness just like the Viking used their superior seamanship and navigation to keep a moat between her and coordinated hostile response, and just as the historic Vikings attacked lesser-defended areas rich and loot and then faded away, so did she do the same (only with murder instead of pillage as her goal).  But considering neither I nor the PC had planned the comparison, I was really happy that I could draw it later, and nearly get an earnest-but-not-wise NPC murdered when he glowingly spoke to her and referred to her campaign of terror and guerilla warfare as "being a better <not-Viking> than the <not-Vikings>."

Greetings!

Thanks Robertliqouri! Yes, the campaign is a real blast for sure!

Your campaign there sounds interesting and fun! As I mentioned earlier, in this campaign, I too, had expected the players to take a very different track! *Laughing* Surprise, surprise!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 05:29:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
I'd add a note about comedy. S'mon mentioned judging Poul Anderson's _The High Crusade_ was fine as comedy -- but he also cited harem anime fantasies as an example of rubbing the wrong way. While I haven't seen any of them, I suspect harem anime fantasies are also pitched as comedy.

I said harem anime fell into the the 'these people aren't really people' category - "Harem anime fantasies where the hyper-competent female characters all revolve around a singularly un-magnetic, unprepossessing male lead, for instance" - the female characters only exist to service the male fantasy. Or vice versa, in the Reverse Harem Animes a female friend of mine likes. That's not a problem with the Englishmen in The High Crusade. It would be an issue for their alien enemies, if it were a serious book. I read a Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosigan (sp?) SF book where the enemy fit exactly that trope; they seemed entirely un-proactive, barely reactive, existing only for the hero to show off his awesomeness. And that was supposed to be a non-comedy.

I didn't say the harem anime rubbed me up the wrong way, though. I tried to watch one called something like DxD and it bored me, but it didn't annoy me.  ;D

Got it. Sorry for misrepresenting you there.

Trying to keep this on RPGs, I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.


The better games rise above that, of course -- especially with a good GM. I liked SHARK's description of his game. I could see a lot of parallels to my own viking game.

wtf happened to "TLDR"? Or the more polite, "In Summation"?

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 05:29:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
I'd add a note about comedy. S'mon mentioned judging Poul Anderson's _The High Crusade_ was fine as comedy -- but he also cited harem anime fantasies as an example of rubbing the wrong way. While I haven't seen any of them, I suspect harem anime fantasies are also pitched as comedy.

I said harem anime fell into the the 'these people aren't really people' category - "Harem anime fantasies where the hyper-competent female characters all revolve around a singularly un-magnetic, unprepossessing male lead, for instance" - the female characters only exist to service the male fantasy. Or vice versa, in the Reverse Harem Animes a female friend of mine likes. That's not a problem with the Englishmen in The High Crusade. It would be an issue for their alien enemies, if it were a serious book. I read a Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosigan (sp?) SF book where the enemy fit exactly that trope; they seemed entirely un-proactive, barely reactive, existing only for the hero to show off his awesomeness. And that was supposed to be a non-comedy.

I didn't say the harem anime rubbed me up the wrong way, though. I tried to watch one called something like DxD and it bored me, but it didn't annoy me.  ;D

Got it. Sorry for misrepresenting you there.

Trying to keep this on RPGs, I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.


The better games rise above that, of course -- especially with a good GM. I liked SHARK's description of his game. I could see a lot of parallels to my own viking game.

Greetings!

Good to hear, Jhkim. Definitely some parallels! I'm glad you like the campaign I describe.

As for monsters siting in a room for the players to encounter them--*Laughing*--Yeah, that does seem silly, doesn't it? I have random creatures and such encountering the players, of course, but most opponents--let alone actual villains--are definitely tied into some kind of conflict or relationship, whether racial, religious, or political. Dungeons, of course, have their own ecology and inhabitants, though they aren't just sitting there, watching TV.

With romantic characters, yeah, that whole "Dependent" thing--some kind of Flaw, or drawback, right? *Laughing* That wouldn't fly either, oh, geesus, since I was probably in high school. With the women especially--but even the men, providing the "romantic interest" isn't just a strumpet or playboy at a party--I'd get barraged with a thousand questions, and definite expectations for me to deliver. It helps that I emphasize verisimilitude throughout the campaign, and I'm also quite detailed in providing knowledge about many different characters that are in their lives--from family and relatives, to long-time friends, and even more recently met friends or newcomers.

I've found that while such an approach does make more demands on my own time and effort, it all pays off well through increasing verisimilitude and immersion--as well as surprisingly providing literally trainloads of adventure hooks, motivations, secrets, and all that. It all contributes to a kind of process after awhile that writes the campaign on its own, with increasingly *less* of a need for me to create stuff whole-cloth. Pundit has also discussed this kind of dynamic, where the campaign becomes so detailed and internally consistent, that it is almost like being on auto-pilot. It only requires periodic tune-ups and occasional extra-effort interventions from the DM, whenever something really different or unusual occurs, for example.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd.  ;D

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 27, 2023, 07:08:05 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 27, 2023, 04:18:20 PM
There's always been that school of creative thought which specializes in trying to imagine "what Set of Extremely Implausible Circumstances X-Y-Z would make Behaviour Patterns A/B/C justified/sensible/practical?" The entire appeal of the Imperium of Man is that literally everything else in the galaxy is orders of magnitude worse.

It's a bit of an aside, but the Leagues of Votann, as currently written, sort of undercut that. I'm sure GW will change that soon enough.

The Votann are interesting, because they have no real need to fight the Imperium.  If the Imperium went against their economic interests, they would, without a doubt, but existing mostly on the edge of the Galactic Core means they don't have a lot of potential conflict.  The Votann do look to be utterly ruthless though when they want to be.

I could see things get so bad that an Imperium/Aeldari/Votann/Tau alliance forms to fight off the Chaos hordes and the Tyranids.

Women like anti-heroes, the "bad boys" give them cyclical buyer's remorse after every "nice guy" fails to palate cleanse

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:41:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd.  ;D

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* Ah, yes. That male Player sounds like a jackass. However, I can imagine my male players especially would howl in glee, knowing that any NPC woman he became involved with in my campaign--oh yeah. The drama and crazy train would be *EPIC* In a weird way, I would love having some smug troglodyte like that as a Player in my campaign. The comedy relief of watching his trainwreck relationships with women characters would provide roaring entertainment for all of my other players, for sure!

Oh, yes. And your female Player that enjoyed using him and exploiting him for attention, and making him her simping beta orbiter...ahh, yes. *CLASSIC*!! Textbook female behavior on display! You must have been beside yourself howling in laughter, my friend!

You know I would have!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:41:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd.  ;D

I dunno how you got a soft-play Andrew Tate wannabe in your group, but women don't take grovelling from wankers larping at chivalry.

She probably feels that if this clown is willing to waste his energy, a real man worth her time will notice her in due course.

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 04, 2023, 12:13:29 PM

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:41:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I feel like it is pretty common for RPGs to have enemies that only exist for PCs to kill and take the loot of -- with little agency or thought of their own. This depends on how the GM runs them, of course. Still, it is in my experience common for there to be monsters that sit in a room until the PCs open the door and then kill them. Likewise for romance, a number of games have sideplot romantic interests that tend to be tokens of a PC -- like a "Dependent NPC" girlfriend disadvantage for the Champions/HERO System, or "Dependent" in GURPS.

Yes, I agree. Most players love that even my goblins have agency, I often get praise. Most feel that way about romantic interest NPCs too. One male player could not accept that the female NPCs his PC was involved with did not exist purely to service his sexual fantasies, though. In fact he got so obnoxious I eventually had to boot him from the game. He was the longtime simp/stalker of a female player, she had first asked* me to let him into my player group many years ago, but she had grown tired of his antics (he took it badly when her PC got involved with another PC) and by this time she was quite happy for me to 'let him go'.

*She said she felt sorry for him. I'd expect it was a mix of that, and enjoying the attention. Women are odd.  ;D

I dunno how you got a soft-play Andrew Tate wannabe in your group, but women don't take grovelling from wankers larping at chivalry.

She probably feels that if this clown is willing to waste his energy, a real man worth her time will notice her in due course.

Greetings!

"A soft-play Andrew Tate wannabe in your group"--*LAUGHING*

Awesome, Dispotatic254!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think, to put it simply, bad boys get things done.  Ladies like that.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on March 05, 2023, 09:43:00 PM
I think, to put it simply, bad boys get things done.  Ladies like that.

Greetings!

Hi there, Cathode Ray! Yeah, I can definitely see that basic principle in action. The women really love being around adventurous, bold men that, as you say, "Get Things Done!". Those men that are lacking in confidence, tending towards being shy, unsure of themselves, socially restrained, or worrying too much about how others around them will think--certainly seem to be less popular choices for many women.

In contrast, the bold, confident, even violent-tempered men that are strong, often loud and direct, typically not paying too much concern to what others think--and instead prefer to take action, and exhorting other men to join them in such bold and often dangerous actions--yeah, the women love men like that. My women players flock to them like Bees going after Honey!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

Can you imagine creating an NPC that is like a version of Andrew Tate? *LAUGHING* Just imagine how the girls would react!

I can just hear all of the howling now!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK