Same reason there are men attracted to crazy like catnip. It's the thrill of power possibly being tamed, or at the very least held on long enough to be ridden, like old analogies of "grabbing a tiger by its tail" or "riding the lightning." Survival is not the goal, breeding is not the goal, the rush to dance with the death urge is the goal.

Now guys are pretty well trained to sublimate their crazy into derring-do and violence. So on average other people are only playthings and status currency when they are "behind the wheel" and the rest are passengers or witnesses -- which explains all racing since time immemorial. Since women were often given the realm of social machinations to 'count coup' then you see how a lot of that human death drive energy is sublimated into this allowed and encouraged sphere. Hence a few psychos in your entourage is mad status worth risking your life over.

Humans are way more similar and readable than they wish to appear. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 26, 2023, 08:14:45 AM
Same reason there are men attracted to crazy like catnip. It's the thrill of power possibly being tamed, or at the very least held on long enough to be ridden, like old analogies of "grabbing a tiger by its tail" or "riding the lightning." Survival is not the goal, breeding is not the goal, the rush to dance with the death urge is the goal.

Now guys are pretty well trained to sublimate their crazy into derring-do and violence. So on average other people are only playthings and status currency when they are "behind the wheel" and the rest are passengers or witnesses -- which explains all racing since time immemorial. Since women were often given the realm of social machinations to 'count coup' then you see how a lot of that human death drive energy is sublimated into this allowed and encouraged sphere. Hence a few psychos in your entourage is mad status worth risking your life over.

Humans are way more similar and readable than they wish to appear. 

Greetings!

"The rush to dance with the death urge is the goal."
*Laughing* So true, huh, my friend? Living--or dancing on the edge of the fire...yeah, it's a deep attraction.

Your commentry brought up a particularly sharp and relevant memory for me. When I was in college, I had several professors ask me what my reasons were for joining the Marine Corps, and *volunteering* for the Infantry, and intentionally seeking out th most dangerous missions. Previously, my wife had asked me the same things, when we had first met. On my Marine base, when I was a total beast.

My reasons included pride, tradition, patriotism, and more. A huge motivation though was that I yearned to be at the "Tip of th Spear". I wanted to live my life at maxium speed, pushing everything in me to the limits of that death fire. I wanted to experience the ultimate rush of life on the edges of death and danger. Interestingly, when I asked my wife--girlfriend at the time shortly after our meeting, what brought a good girl like her to a Marine base, full of uber-masculine, old-school Marine animals like me?

She basically said that being around Marines with their macho crazy love for life and death, for doing everything in life with such absolute passion, was irresistable to her. It was primal for her, and so intense that she was simply mezmerized and driven to be around us, and find me. Civilian men, to her, were all boring, weak children by comparison.

Her girlfriends all echoed the same kinds of feelings. It made me laugh at the time, howling in smug glee, even, because I even mentioned, that we Marines didn't give a fuck about Feminism. We all knew women had their place in a relationship and society, and men are men, women are women. Get with the program, or get fucked. We don't give a damn. And we are violent. We are vulgar, we swear every third word, and we drink and smoke. And we are always horn dogs, and wanting to fuck every woman within reach that is willing. We Marines also live in the gym, and love our awesome, strong bodies. We are arrogant and smug in our absolute superiority. And we live each day, driving ourselves in sacrfice and suffering, knowing that every day may be our last. We may well die tomorrow! This is our fate, girl.

She said it's hard for her to explain...but it is all that about us Marines that makes us so attractive and the absolute top of desire.

As I mentioned, at the time, I found her explanations--and her girlfriend's as well--to be howling funny, and perversely the opposite of everything that modern women claimed to be important priorities to them. I thought, well, good. Just like hordes of women that are eager to crawl over broken glass to be with us Marines! Let's see if you can really handle a relationship with a Marine, woman!

I saw the exact same dynamics and motivations play out with all of my Marine buddies at the time, and their girlfriends and fiance's. There were always the packs of eager women, and then there were the focused, determined women that competed to become the main girl, the focus of her Marine's life, at east romantically speaking. The women that became girlfriends typically had to be super-intense, and over-the top crazy to get our attention and win out. Not always really crazy, but intense, and focused, and different, from all the other women.

My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible. Not a party girl or strumpet. And yet--simultaneously, she was also generous, absolutely loyal, and entirely devoted to making me happy in every way possible. She was also intellectual, well-read, smart, and eager to become a gamer. So, that was that. That's how these things go. Part conscious thinking, awareness, intentional stuff, but also some weird biology things pulling and pushing you, driving you under the surface.

Weird. I haven't thought about some of the personal experiences in years.

Very cool insight and commentary, Opaopajr.

Definitely, time for some fresh coffee. I hope everyone's having a good Sunday morning!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

I find it interesting how frequently the "fantasy" of RPGs tracks the realities of the world.  Most people just aren't capable of truly thinking outside themselves.  Hence the girlfriend jealous of a fictional relationship.  Yet, not irrationally so, as close relationships in one context can bleed over into others.  I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.  It's like Agent Smith's explanation of the failure of the first similation in The Matrix: people can't believe in perfect happiness...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2023, 03:32:10 PM
I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

Greetings!

Very true, Stephen! I agree, being able to remain faithful to your spouse and maintaining integrity is critically important to a successful marriage. Faithfulness and integrity are traits that "Bad Boys/Bad Girls" often lack--or find extremely difficult to learn, and to embrace. It's amusing to see how these dynamics and values can also play out in the game. In my "Barbarian Campaign" the players all zoom in on this kind of thing, too. Certainly, it is on all of their minds. I'd at it's equally important for both my male player and the female players--though I would say that for the female players, they are always more dramatic about it. Being paranoid might be hyperbole, but only a bit! Throughout their different relationships, there is always lots of drama and intensity around this stuff. Some demonstrate or express their emotions more intensely to different degrees, of course--but it's always important and pretty motivating, even to what might seem like a more distant, or emotionally aloof player. Over time, even if they don't express it as much, these kinds of relationship dynamics are important and meaningful to them, too.

Yes, of course, I know it's a game and everything--but these games are different. A roleplaying game is not like Monopoly. It just isn't. I have been reminded of this reality on more than on occasion during the campaign. (Other campaigns, too, of course). One instance, one of the female player characters discovered her paramour was *en flagrante* with another woman. Besides all the drama, and the swearing, and some open-mouthed giggling and shrieking amongst them--the *female player* also was crying. She unleashed hot emotions through her character, for sure. Where does the "Player" end, and the "Character" begins? Lots of blurred lines there, and it can get real. Or feel real. The player was *furious* She was seething. The following "screen time" so to speak between her character, the paramour, and *ahem*--the other woman--were intense, as was the ongoing girl bull-session that the other female player characters had with her through ongoing play. My male player's eyes popped wide, as he laughed quietly, nervously, exclaiming, oh, damn. You know the fireworks are gonna fly now!

Later on, the four girls--and the male player--cornered the voluptuous slave girl behind a storage barn. The male player character guarded them and played shotgun. The four women though? Yeah, they beat the other woman senseless. They managed to restrain themselves from killing the beaten woman--but thy definitely wanted to. They were all fierce, and absolutely ruthless. The male player reminded them of the difference in social status, and that the other woman was just doing her thing. She's a slave, just like they all were, previously. The girls pulled their wrath with their fists, and the axe-handles, and managed to heed his caution. But I could see it wasn't easy for her, the most enraged girl, of course--but even her girlfriends all wanted to make the sexy slave girl bleed. They wanted her to suffer. The girls let the sexy slave girl live, but the woman player, her Witch character, told the slave woman that she was going to curse her, and make her fat and ugly, and maybe even curse her womb, so that she would never breed, or if she did, any children she had would all be ugly, horrifying mutants.

Yeah. After that game session, I definitely needed a good cigar. Some of the girls also shrieked and whipped out their cigarettes. Listening to them scream and banter back and forth about the session--all of this out of character--we were having food and unwinding then--but yeah, they get caught up in this game. Very real emotions.

On a personal aside, relating to my earlier story, this episode at the time made me also sympathetic, and darkly amused, as I had a flashback related to what you speak of, about the realities involved. I was dating my wife at the time--we had gotten into a fight, because she didn't want to drive to base, for us to get together. (She lived a good hour's drive away from my base). Still, I had just had a grinding, 10-hour day, humping and doing our thing. I felt that she was being selfish, uncaring, and petty. So, I was feeling angry, hurt, and kind of rejected. In that moment, I suddenly didn't feel like I was a priority for her, which I wasn't used to at all. Normally, I was a total priority for her, like constantly. (She could be super intense, in her own way). Walking back to barracks, my buddy Espinoza comes by, and invites me to join him and three of our buddies to go get some beer and food at the Beach Club. (The Beach Club was an E-Club on our base, right on th beach, too. A combination of a bar, restaurant, and dance club.) On Wednesdays, and the weekends, the place was crawling like a beehive with women. I said sure, fuck it. I hadn't had any chow yet either.

We got to the Beach Club, had some chow, were smoking, and having some drinks. Probably over an hour, maybe close to two hours, just us. The place was nearly deserted, which wasn't too unusual for some Wednesday nights, after all. It was a late blooming Wednesday, and so it was probably around 2000 when the women finally started showing up. Gradually, more and more girls started filtering in. Then the DJ gets busy playing the music, right? I'm at the bar, getting some more drinks for me and my friends. None of us were in "Hunting Mode" and certainly not myself. At the bar, these two cute girls started talking to me. One explains that this is her girlfriend's first time, ever, to a Marine base, and had never dated any Marines. Her girlfriend was shy and you know, kind of dopey and awkward. She was cute, and dressed nice, but I could see she was for real. She was also super sweet, cheerful, and very friendly. I bought her a drink, to make her feel welcomed. Then, some cool song came on, an she asked me if I would dance with her, so she wouldn't feel so dumb and lost? Of course! Gotta do my part to keep the Corp's reputation up for being fun, welcoming, and chivalrous!

So, we danced a few sets. I even told my friend Espinoza that I was being nice, and the girl was super sweet, but I just wanted her to feel welcome and have a good impression. Another drink with Suzie Q, and another fast dance. All fun and cool. Then, a slow song comes on, and Suzie Q lights up, and tugs on my arm, looking up at me. Ok, I said. So, we are out on the floor, and she's close. She was getting tight, and things were feeling warm, for sure. She was holding me tight, her arms moving around my neck. I looked over her shoulder--ten feet away, there was my girlfriend, looking right at me.

*Laughing* Yeah. You know the fireworks hit the wall then. Oh my god. Tears, screaming. Her girlfriend was with her. They had gotten a late start in driving down, because she had changed her mind about being tired rom work, and really wanted to se me, too. So, they got there late, like 2200. Time didn't matter to her typically, we had lots of crazy nights until 0300 or 0400 in the morning. I had to be back in the barracks by 0530. She was always game for late, crazy nights. Obviously, though, I didn't think was coming down, especially after our fight on the phone. (We had to use public phone booths then! *Laughing*). I was harangued and interrogated for *hours* by both my girlfriend, and her girlfriend that came with her. I later found out they had talked to Espinoza, and they had confirmed that everything was casual, and nothing had happened, and I had just been being a nice guy. My girlfriend--lots o tears and rage--she told me she conceded that my intentions were pure--but I had still acted selfishly, and disrespectfully, and disregarded her feelings. She felt *hurt* by what I had done. She said yes, innocent I might be--but I had stupidly played very close to the fire. She also said, even if I was being simple--she KNEW what that other girl wanted! She KNEW what that girl was doing and what she intended, even if I was blind to it! Ok, I get it. I apologized, and survived. Before this, I had never seen her in a hysterical, crying rage. Her girlfriend told me she was seriously tempted to hurt me, somehow. Her girlfriend had that kind of look in her eyes like she wanted to burn me slowly with her cigarettes, and some kind of sharp object. I hadn't seen her girlfriend ever look like that, either.

My girlfriend later proceeded to educate me on the nature of women, and how women behave. She explained that it all begins with her just smiling at me. Then her touching my arm. Then, me buying her a drink. The woman giggling at me, looking at me, talking. Then dancing together. Then moving even closer and *slow dancing* Yeah, all these little things, even if I wasn't aware of it at the time--are part of the woman's recipe. She told me, you need to get it through your head, women pay attention to every little detail, and most every little thing they do towards a man is done for a purpose--to somehow set everything up where she gets you in bed, and she gets into your life! Afterwards, I was careful and intentional about my own behavior, not merely avoiding blowing past stop-lights, but also paying attention to even the *appearance* of guilt or fault on my part. And that women can suddenly become absolutely incoherent when they consider other women being with their man. It can really make them enraged, and for some, can definitely bring out the violent girl. Laws, morals, all that can go right out the window when they think of their man being in the arms of another woman. Like *blink* you're done. It can happen in an instant, or just a few hours, if they simmer on it. Fortunately, my own girlfriend was...more controlled. Good times though. Years later, she could laugh about it.

For the Barbarian Campaign, though, indeed, I've seen how that emotional issues and drama like this can not just be meaningful, but also provoke deep emotional feelings, even tears. Happiness, joy, fear, rage, emotional agony, betrayal. Play the campaign long enough, where they get into their characters, and these emotions can be on full throttle for sure. My plyers also went crazy when they had returned to the Alben shore in an epic raiding mission, and three members of the party chose to return to their homeland and their old life. Geeso. Yeah, my players were enraged and in tears then, too. Truth be told, it was also emotionally challenging also for myself, the emotions were there, but the characters had to be true to who they were. Emotionally intense game sessions are good though!Fantastic! Sometimes crazy, and sometimes not always *comfortable*--but still deep and rewarding. I like complex game play.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK   

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2023, 03:32:10 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 26, 2023, 01:57:29 PMAnd we are always horn dogs, and wanting to (bonk) every woman within reach that is willing.

...My girlfriend at the time--later the wife--got my attention by being a good girl, by being strongly conservative, and pretty traditional. A Christian girl. Also mature and responsible.

The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

I find it interesting how frequently the "fantasy" of RPGs tracks the realities of the world.  Most people just aren't capable of truly thinking outside themselves.  Hence the girlfriend jealous of a fictional relationship.  Yet, not irrationally so, as close relationships in one context can bleed over into others.  I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.  It's like Agent Smith's explanation of the failure of the first similation in The Matrix: people can't believe in perfect happiness...

Greetings!

Very true, Eirikrautha! Not irrationally so, indeed. We constantly promote the idea that it's a different game, where *you put yourself in the shoes of your character*. Yeah, for those that are good players, and really invested, there will definitely be bleed over on full display.

One of my female players became very sad and crying when her unicorn friend was killed. It's my female player that has a Paladin. Sometimes, I think some events in the game can also really provoke changes in the character, and how they behave and think. After that episode where her Unicorn friend died, the Paladin player has become much more bloodthirsty, ruthless, and dark. She's on some kind of inner soul-journey to bring light and sunshine into the world. Hope and righteousness and all that. While she is a Barbarian Jarl's wife, looking after her own children, and keeping an interested and careful eye on the throne to the barbarian Vandar Kingdom. All while she struggles and resists becoming an absolutely ruthless barbarian princess.

Trying to blend a quasi-Christian ethos with a Pagan barbarian culture firmly in a dark ages of honour, blood feuds, vendettas, ruthless vengeance, scheming, and always trying to secure your family and children in a violent world full of competition and rivals...is challenging.

As for the Woke--thy are entirely brainwashed and corrupted by Marxism. Their whole world view is founded on a Marxist-Utopianism, that is also entirely irrational, atheistic, and specifically and hatefully anti-Christian. Thy themselves are their own "Gods". They, themselves, full of their own pride and self glory, believe they are the arbiters of morality, what is right and wrong, and what is Good and Evil. That is the first Sin, straight out of the Bible, from the Serpent. The Five "I Will's" of the original *Rebellion*

The Woke are disgusting. They twist and corrupt everything they get their hands on, including our gaming. The examples are everywhere in how they corrupt every damned little thing in the game. Races, classes, in-game religion, urban life, everything. Oh my God. It makes me grind my teeth, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

In a related, but somewhat tangential point to the primary question of "Why Do You Think Women Love the "Bad Boys" So Much?" is that it has been interesting and fun, watching how the players have changed gears mentally as they have adapted to a society and culture that is more *Dark Ages*, and less *Medieval*. Like with encountering a societal economy that is based primarily on a Barter System, with some growing aspects of a "Mixed Economy". I've had to change gears as well. For example, there are no "Taverns". There are no Inns, or Hotels. There are no restaurants, coffee shops, or even really any kind of "Commercial" establishment. Everything is based on barter, trading goods and services, and favours. Bullion of course is acceptable, but even then, that's been primarily used as compensation or a Blacksmith to supply *large* quantities o armour and weapons. Gold and silver coins have some value, of course, but it is more in a kind of abstract representation of wealth, glory, success, and prestige, as a shorthand of value, than having some real kind of specific value attached to whatever kind of coinage in question.

Imagine a society where the social hierarchy is based on:
(1) Warriors
(2) Craftsmen
(3) Farmers
(4) Slaves

Warriors are at the top, though there is only a modest degree of status differential from Craftsmen to Farmers. The more steep degree would be that of the Slaves. However, Dark Ages style of slavery, as generally embraced by the Norse, Slavs, and Celts, was in some ways pretty fluid. YOU too, could become a slave one day if ill fortune befell you, and soon. Likewise, you could be elevated out of the status of being a slave through reward; "purchasing" your way out; or sometimes for a specified time limit, as a form of punishment. Some similarities can also be seen as part o how the Norse Law Codes functioned, in regards to being exiled as a form of legal punishment, and declared as an Outlaw. Being declared an Outlaw was not necessarily a life-time sentence, but could be limited to a few years, say, 3, 5, or 10 years, for example. Being declared an Outlaw for Life, of course, also existed.

As much as the campaign has developed into a brutal, harsh, Dark Ages themed Barbarian campaign--you would also rightly think that such a shift entails a "Low Magic" setting, and which is otherwise also technologically primitive. Such a reasonable assumption however, is also in for some distinct surprises! The Norse, like the Germanic tribes, and the Celts, and the Slavs further east--as well as the Baltic tribal cultures and the Finns--they all embraced a wild, strange, Pagan world that was literally full of magic. Magic, magic spells, magical, supernatural creatures and animals, are seemingly everywhere. Terrifying monsters, and supernatural creatures, as well as various kinds of Faerie creatures and races, as well as dark, evil and wicked demons, are also far more often encountered than is expected, certainly in a "low Magic" campaign, but also, even in a "Normal" magic campaign. It almost seems like a dichotomy--on one hand it's brutal, primitive, and low magic, while on the other hand, it's very HIGH magic. I've sprinkled in Faerie spirits, demons, Forest Gnomes, wicked Hulda women, evil giants, friendly giants, races of savage beastmen, besides megalithic animals. Add these all in, and then dial it up a little more, especially in ancient locations, especially magical or spiritually significant areas, and at spiritually significant times and festivals throughout the year.

Then, of course, there is the importance of Honour. Of a person's Reputation. These two concepts are absolutely crucial social dynamics, and can even feed into influencing how the economy works--for and against an individual, based on what people think of that person's personal honour, Reputation, as well as social status. So, that's something I've had to keep track o and manage, is the social status of each of the Player Characters and NPC's, and how other people evaluate them in regards to their Honour, their Reputation, and then, their overall social status. Even a common Woodsman, say, can carry considerable authority for example, if he has a reputation for being honourable, generous, a man of his word, maybe a *clever* fellow, as well a being manly, strong,  and courageous--despite the fact that his overall social status is modestly viewed at being similar to a farmer in status. The Norse culture has a surprisingly *FLUID* Social culture. Things can change for an individual pretty quickly--but also not necessarily particularly linked to their perceived *wealth*--but often more importantly, things like their courage, their hard work ethic, honesty, good sense of humour, generosity, and things like that, as well as loyalty, trustworthiness, and a sense of good judgment. So, the Players have spent some time getting into that--the Norse value system, and the kinds of behavior, the kinds of attitudes, that are held in the greatest regard, and likewise, the behaviors and attitudes that will bring disapproval, judgment, and even damnation from the local population. That's a process that has been very enjoyable, too, even though it has also been a process over time.

I highly recommend changing campaign styles, grounding a campaign more in ancient, dark ages, and medieval dynamics and foundations, and getting primitive with a barter economy. These changes I have embraced have been very interesting, entertaining, and I believe successful, in changing the campaign experience to something that is definitely more immersive, as well as fun, and deeply engaging.

Good stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

A bit of humour--a friend of mine recently proclaimed to me, "You have DM'd an entirely harsh, brutal, toxic, misogynistic, and hate-filled campaign! You've had your players be grossly humiliated, tortured, raped, and enslaved! Look at all the awful and terrible things you have subjected them to!"

*Laughing*

Strangely, my players have all not only managed to endure all of the terrible harshness and brutality, all of the terrible, toxic masculinity--but they have deeply enjoyed it. They have all enjoyed being treated like physical beasts, appraised and valued and measured emotionally, sexually, physically. Looked at for their strength, how hard they can work, how well they can breed.

The players have had to dig deep, and show real courage, and honour, and loyalty. They have had to fight against strong odds, and to think, and plan, and operate as a strong team. All that stuff, while knowing how everything has consequences. Death, Dishonor, Friendship, or Love. Whatever they at involved with, there are consequences, results, downriver. Their choices matter.

Each of the players knew, if they didn't figure out the program, their player character would literally be fed to the crabs at the shoreline, trapped inside a cage as the icy waves came to them, or *bloodeagled* by the light of a great bonfire as the barbarians celebrated. They have loved every step and session of the campaign, and have never taken anything personally. They have also been very appreciative of my own efforts devoted to bringing this terrifying world to life for them. They've exclaimed it's like better than any movie, because THEY are in the movie, and yet, the world directs it in all kinds of realistic ways--I'm just the neutral Skald that records their episodes.

I have never used any "Safety Tools" or "Session Zeroes" where we have some kind of emotional struggle session, either. When asked about the campaign, I just told them, adults only, medieval D&D. Lots of war, hatred, sex, crazy magic, and adventures. And heroism, STRENGTH AND HONOUR, and hopefully promoting a world where Good triumphs over Evil, and righteousness can prevail.

That's pretty much how I've always run the campaign, this on as well as others.

My friend laughed, and told me, that's because you have normal adults as players, who are also gamer geeks that love history and mythology, and they trust you.

So, yeah. That's been cool, too. It made me laugh though when he told me, especially about hazing me for not having safety tools and struggle sessions! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

  Heh, I like to remind people that humans are a: calculating. social. predator.  Higher order thinking, tool using, yet weak in most physical weapons and defenses except for endurance.

There are no permutations where that does not manifest violence somewhere along the way in a world where we must survive. Oh, you can claim peacefulness and pacifism all you want, but life feeds on life. And to amplify our efforts we do it socially. And since we can think in higher orders, we feed upon life with a greater depth of awareness.

This does not protect us at all from ourselves, it just shows greater depths in our malice and masking of it. No, to eschew physical violence only merely prioritizes social, mental, emotional, and spiritual violence to accomplish our goals... and the greater need for conspiracy. Cut off any sphere and watch other spheres develop, raise the stakes and view the need for insidious planning.

Humans are delightfully fun reads.  I do enjoy us so. Enjoying the game of masks, theater, pretend, roleplaying, is a wonderful saunter into that inner/outer space. Just choose your companions well and walk back when done because there's grit and grime you tread on.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 26, 2023, 02:31:33 PM
The clash here illuminating one of the critical points: Being willing to keep your word to a chosen spouse, and not bonk every potentially willing partner thereafter regardless of how much one might want to, is also a critical requirement for a healthy and civilized marriage, on both sides. But that trustworthiness and loyalty is a trait not typically found in genuinely "bad" (i.e. sexually appealing but personally unreliable) people, which is what produces the ego-boosting fantasy of being The One who can turn the "bad boy"/"bad girl" Good.

RPGing being all about wish-fulfillment fantasy to begin with, there's nothing wrong with playing out that fantasy more than any other, as long as the difficulties of trying to do it in reality are never forgotten.

Quote from: S'mon on February 26, 2023, 05:39:27 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 26, 2023, 03:32:10 PM
I often think that we could shorten the definition of "verisimilitude" down to "people must behave like people."  Which is why so many of the woke changes to RPGs feel so stupid and hollow.  Because woke is predicated on the idea that people can be "fixed"; that the major problems in the world stem from nurture, not nature.  Hence they build worlds of "perfect" people, that seem unrealistic to us at a fundamental level.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I'm more with Stephen Tannhauser here. RPGs are often unrealistic wish-fulfillment, and that's a good thing. For the topic of this thread -- realistically, if the virtuous knight has a romance with a "bad girl" - it will probably result in tons of fights and a nasty breakup later on with later attempts at revenge.

If the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance. This especially since the player doesn't get the payoff of actual sex, but have to deal with the headaches of breakup and fights. That was how I approached things in my vikings game. There were tense scenes and relationship troubles and fights, but the results were mostly positive. I didn't try to impose realistic consequences for engaging with the "bad boy" / "bad girl". Despite SHARK's words over how barbaric his game is, it seems to me that his game was similar - with PC attempts at romance usually ending up in their favor.

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I enjoy some grimdark games like Call of Cthulhu, but I think that unrealistic positivity sometimes gets overly badmouthed. There's nothing wrong with a game where virtuous knights fight for the glory of God and eventually win, though mourning those who fell in the struggle. Where a knight may have a romance with the "bad girl" who eventually turns over a new leaf. The same goes for more wokish romances, like LGBT relationships.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
I'm more with Stephen Tannhauser here. RPGs are often unrealistic wish-fulfillment, and that's a good thing. For the topic of this thread -- realistically, if the virtuous knight has a romance with a "bad girl" - it will probably result in tons of fights and a nasty breakup later on with later attempts at revenge.

If the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance.

Hmm. I was wondering why this was making my heard hurt. What's wrong with this picture? Then I realised - you swapped out versimilitude for realistic!

You are smart enough to know that those are not the same things. I expect you just ignored that in order to make the point you wanted to make, rather than being deliberately disingenuous. But it's not a good habit.

Engage with what people actually say. We're talking about the feeling of truthiness that allows for suspension of disbelief, not actual slice-of-life kitchen-sink realism. If we can believe that the shining heroic paragon of virtue at least has a chance to redeem the fallen woman, that meets the versimilitude standard. Of course we know that in our own lives, it rarely works out that way (I certainly know it!). But it's not even something that can't happen/has never happened IRL. People do occasionally reform, even IRL - and that's without encountering a CHA 18 Paladin.

There are real people who have taken the path of SHARK's players' characters - and succeeded.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
The same goes for more wokish romances, like LGBT relationships.

Surely you're not saying that IRL LGBT relationships can't be functional/successful? 

I think most non-woke people don't object to the portrayal of a functional LGBT relationship, but do tend to object to portrayals of them as inherently better and purer than 'cis' heterosexual relationships. More generally, it's the feel that "these people aren't really people". I first noticed it in the 1990s with some of the Star Trek: The Next Generation novels, so a bit before modern Woke culture. But you can get it in a lot of bad fiction, including non-Woke fiction. Harem anime fantasies where the hyper-competent female characters all revolve around a singularly un-magnetic, unprepossessing male lead, for instance.

Quote from: S'mon on February 27, 2023, 01:22:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
I'm more with Stephen Tannhauser here. RPGs are often unrealistic wish-fulfillment, and that's a good thing. For the topic of this thread -- realistically, if the virtuous knight has a romance with a "bad girl" - it will probably result in tons of fights and a nasty breakup later on with later attempts at revenge.

If the GM tries to enforce realistic consequences to romance in the game, the result is that players simply won't want to have in-game romance.

Hmm. I was wondering why this was making my heard hurt. What's wrong with this picture? Then I realised - you swapped out versimilitude for realistic!

You are smart enough to know that those are not the same things. I expect you just ignored that in order to make the point you wanted to make, rather than being deliberately disingenuous. But it's not a good habit.

Engage with what people actually say. We're talking about the feeling of truthiness that allows for suspension of disbelief, not actual slice-of-life kitchen-sink realism. If we can believe that the shining heroic paragon of virtue at least has a chance to redeem the fallen woman, that meets the versimilitude standard. Of course we know that in our own lives, it rarely works out that way (I certainly know it!). But it's not even something that can't happen/has never happened IRL. People do occasionally reform, even IRL - and that's without encountering a CHA 18 Paladin.

I didn't intend to misrepresent, but I also don't want to get too caught up in semantics. I'll try to bring up some examples to see if we're disagreeing. To be clear, I think it can be a fun choice when an RPG has both:

1) "typical results that are improbable in real life" -- like bad girls turning good,

and

2) "things that can't happen / have never happened in real life" -- like divinely/magically good power in the world

Stephen Tannhauser's example of Kushiel's Dart is a good example of both #1 and #2. Phedre is of divine descent, and has a magical power that effects her relationships - like when she teaches the viking warlord who captures her how to give pleasure to women.

In the RPG world, a paladin or divinely-inspired knight would be an example of #2. A woke-ish example of #2 could be the Blue Rose RPG, where a big part of the politics of Aldis is the Scepter of the Blue Rose that determines (once) if the person touching it is of Light alignment.

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It seemed to me that Eirikrautha's demand "people must behave like people" was against cases like Phedre in Kushiel's Dart, or the Scepter of the Blue Rose.

Quote from: jhkim on February 27, 2023, 02:06:40 PM
It seemed to me that Eirikrautha's demand "people must behave like people" was against cases like Phedre in Kushiel's Dart, or the Scepter of the Blue Rose.

No. Detect Alignment & such magic is hardly a big* deal. A setting where a Communist society works, because people no longer have actual human motivations, would trigger the feeling, though. Like I said, some depictions of Next Gen era Star Trek trigger that feeling for me. Judging by all the old arguments here, the Blue Rose society may be a marginal case, though I don't know enough to judge. If all the State Commissars are impeccable paragons of virtue, that may be Soviet Realism but it ain't versimilitude.  OTOH fantasies of a somewhat implausibly nice Social Democracy don't in themselves seem any less un-versimilitudinus than fantasies of a somewhat implausibly nice Feudal Monarchy. We can generally buy into "These are the good guys, warts and all." It's when we're told "Everything About These Guys is Perfect - Perfect, I Tell You! When they appear to do bad things, really it's for the Greater Good!" - that certainly sticks in my craw, whether from Left or Right.

*I think the objectors generally felt more that the Magic Deer's definition (the authors' definition) of Light/Good was off, since it didn't align with theirs.