Quote from: Venka on April 27, 2025, 07:39:29 PMThis is your actual answer.  If the game has randomization as the "default" but has an order that clearly dictates some manner of non-random (either "arrange random stats to taste" or "point buy" or "matrix") as "optional", then rest assured 98% of the testing was with the "optional" builds.

Frankly, it's generally better to tell the players to make their stats then pick class or skills or whatever.  Since all the randomness in play has already happened (there may be later rolls for skills or bonus stats or money), the player will naturally go back and forth as needed, depending on the character generation method. 

For a solid combination of this, check out Stars Without Number and Worlds Without Number, which want you to roll, then let you stamp a 14 anywhere if you do, but have a matrix build option instead, and then you start making other decisions- some of which might involve dice.  It's a very good order and extremely well written.

That doesn't cut it for me. You can't instruct people in the main rulebook to do something that doesn't make sense, then excuse it because in the options, they suggest ways that it might be more sensible.

In this instance it wasn't just stats, there's entire origins and careers stuff which is randomly generated as well, so any concept you come up with could be rapidly rendered completely irrelevant by what you roll afterwards.

Coming up with a concept, then rolling all that stuff is completely illogical. You should be rolling all that stuf, then afterwards trying to make sense of it with a concept that ties it all together.

Quote from: Venka on April 27, 2025, 07:39:29 PMThat's not a sin nor error.  It's a great virtue.  There's three great reasons to do this.

1- Random is fundamentally less able to get you to something you want that point-build or matrix.  There must be compensation for this, in the form of a higher average.  Not just a higher envelope, but a higher average. 
2- Because even a pretty generous method like AD&D 1e's default method (and 5e's default method) of 4d6, drop lowest, six times, arrange to taste, will still often enough produce something not great at all, having a higher average actually makes this way less likely.  The average must be higher for this reason too. 
3- People who are willing to entrust their fate to the dice deserve a chance to roll an amazing score.  Cowards who want point buy do not.  I say all this as someone who hates rolling for stats and always pushes point buy.

I've never seen a game with matrix or point buy that gives crappy characters.  I'll freely admit my field of experience may be less than yours (or everyone in the thread for that matter) on this topic, but making worse characters than the average roll is 100% how you have to design point buy or matrix.

I don't think that's a virtue at all. Especially when paired with signature characters from the source material who are better than anything you could generate with the non-random options. Or any option at all (see WEG Star Wars and everything White Wolf did back in the day for good examples of this).

In the case I was looking at, the genuine non-random option would give you only mediocre characters compared to the random.

Greetings!

I generally prefer 4d6 drop the lowest, down the line for character stats. This usually results in relatively competent characters that can effectively fulfill any Character Class. The added advantage is that uber Characters are actually pretty unusual, and thus rightfully prized. It also establishes as mentioned an effective norm, while also characters having some inferior stat ability are also, while not a constant, are also reasonably common.

This also has a knock-on effect in the long term, as Characters can look forward through level increases or magic towards obtaining one or more stat abilities in the range of 16 to 18. This kind of "ceiling" also reinforces a dynamic where Characters may be Heroic--but not Super Heroes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 28, 2025, 08:30:36 AMGreetings!

I generally prefer 4d6 drop the lowest, down the line for character stats. This usually results in relatively competent characters that can effectively fulfill any Character Class. The added advantage is that uber Characters are actually pretty unusual, and thus rightfully prized. It also establishes as mentioned an effective norm, while also characters having some inferior stat ability are also, while not a constant, are also reasonably common.

This also has a knock-on effect in the long term, as Characters can look forward through level increases or magic towards obtaining one or more stat abilities in the range of 16 to 18. This kind of "ceiling" also reinforces a dynamic where Characters may be Heroic--but not Super Heroes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For clarity, this isn't about the merits of random chargen, or the specifics of how to apply it.

Rather, games which direct you first to come up with a character concept, then take you through highly random stat/career generation, which can then make said concept irrelevant.

Quote from: Kiero on April 28, 2025, 09:22:59 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 28, 2025, 08:30:36 AMGreetings!

I generally prefer 4d6 drop the lowest, down the line for character stats. This usually results in relatively competent characters that can effectively fulfill any Character Class. The added advantage is that uber Characters are actually pretty unusual, and thus rightfully prized. It also establishes as mentioned an effective norm, while also characters having some inferior stat ability are also, while not a constant, are also reasonably common.

This also has a knock-on effect in the long term, as Characters can look forward through level increases or magic towards obtaining one or more stat abilities in the range of 16 to 18. This kind of "ceiling" also reinforces a dynamic where Characters may be Heroic--but not Super Heroes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For clarity, this isn't about the merits of random chargen, or the specifics of how to apply it.

Rather, games which direct you first to come up with a character concept, then take you through highly random stat/career generation, which can then make said concept irrelevant.

Greetings!

Right. Thank you, Kiero. Games that front-load the Character Concept before rolling for stat abilities seems to be stupid to me. The subsequent stat abilities generated may establish a Character that isn't just a bit straying from the ideal, but stupidly different and incompatible. That, then, makes whatever the preconceived Character Concept a pointless waste of time and energy.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 28, 2025, 09:47:16 AMGreetings!

Right. Thank you, Kiero. Games that front-load the Character Concept before rolling for stat abilities seems to be stupid to me. The subsequent stat abilities generated may establish a Character that isn't just a bit straying from the ideal, but stupidly different and incompatible. That, then, makes whatever the preconceived Character Concept a pointless waste of time and energy.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The game that prompted me to post this thread tells you to come up with a concept. Then does random stats. Followed by random origin/social class. Followed by random prior career.

All three of those will generate a completely different concept to whatever you dreamt up with at the start.

Quote from: SHARK on April 28, 2025, 08:30:36 AM...This usually results in relatively competent characters that can effectively fulfill any Character Class.

I've always thought having Class minimums were silly, better to just allow them to be non-optimal at their chosen class.
I came up with this option about the time the Unearthed Arcana Barbarian dropped. Stupid class.

We fixed this by playing games that let you assign your stats and abilities.  You build your character.  There are no random rolls during character creation.

Tiny D6, Dungeons & Delvers Dice Pool, Star Wars D6/Mini-Six Bare Bones, Pocket Fantasy, Kogarashi/True D6, or even Bugbears & Borderlands. 

Mini-Six, Pocket Fantasy, and Bugbears & Borderlands are all free as well.

Quote from: Ruprecht on April 28, 2025, 09:23:41 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 28, 2025, 08:30:36 AM...This usually results in relatively competent characters that can effectively fulfill any Character Class.

I've always thought having Class minimums were silly, better to just allow them to be non-optimal at their chosen class.
I came up with this option about the time the Unearthed Arcana Barbarian dropped. Stupid class.

Greetings!

Yeah, Ruprecht!

That's right! I like how the 4d6 drop lowest typically creates a few 10's, a few 12's, and a few 14's, 15's, or 16's, which, when you think about Class Prime Requisites, well, it means you can basically be whatever class you want. No need to have prime minimums, which I also have done away with. Even if you had 12's and 14's across the board, while not optimal, I think you are good to go for whatever.

Also, think about it. 9-12 are the Human average. That means 13 to say, 16, are the band width for very skilled professionals. 17 and 18 are like, Olympic-level achievements, and extremely rare. Obviously, less so for 17, and more so for 18's. Which I happen to think is just fine as a solid arrangement of ability scores. People with 6's, 7's, and 8's yes are likely laughed at by most people, while people with 16's, 17's, and 18's are the show-stoppers. The in between scores are the normal people, and then the professionals and badasses. *Laughing*

I tend to view most Adventurers as more or less normal or somewhat above average people, with capacity to become someone exceptional, professional, and heroic.

Coincidentally, it is also an offshoot of why I also like the Class and Level approach. Most of the average and retarded adventurers--while still able to become adventurers--are likely to die and be eaten or retire by 5th level. This means that most of the people rocking at 6th level and higher--well, you can bet good money they are exceptional in every way, and likely extremely dangerous people. By 6th level and above, these people are absolute professionals, lucky, very experienced, and shrewd, cunning, and ruthless.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK