Just curious to know, what with the sudden rise of interest in publishing Rome based sourcebooks, and full RPGs set in Roman times, I was interested to see if anyone had any musical suggestions for the time period.
Movie soundtracks, interspersed with period-sounding music all welcome.
Quote from: Lawbag;453384Just curious to know, what with the sudden rise of interest in publishing Rome based sourcebooks, and full RPGs set in Roman times, I was interested to see if anyone had any musical suggestions for the time period.
Movie soundtracks, interspersed with period-sounding music all welcome.
I occasionally listened to a number of things when writing BRP Rome...
Spartcus Soundtrack
Ben Hur Soundtrack
Rome TV series Soundtrack
and
Synaulia - Music from ancient Rome
They put me in the mood. Even though the 50's & 60's soundtracks were less than authentic, the dramatic music still evoked childhood memories of watching classic Roman movies.
Does the Gladiator soundtrack do it too, or did it suck? I don't remember off the bat, but have my doubts now that I think of it. Thinking of the way Commodus was portrayed gives me shivers...
Gladiator is a given soundtrack.
A lot of the music in TV series/films is based on the assumption that that is what WE think the music from the era should sound like, rather than what it actually does sound like.
Something like this (http://www.amazon.com/Synaulia-Music-Ancient-Rome-Instruments/dp/B00000DMKM).
Back in the '90s, before Borders cut back on its CD selection, I was able to pick up stuff like that any time I wanted. I have a ton of ancient music, a lot of it is quite beautiful.
Music by the band Dead Can Dance might be something you want to check out. Particularly their albums Aion and The Serpent's Egg.
I like the idea of mixing modern interpretations with classical Roman music, and both Dead Can Dead / Lisa Gerrard works well.
They made soundtracks for the Total War games.
Check out the soundtracks for Rome: Total War. Awesome and epic.
As there are no direct sources of Roman music we will never know what "actual Roman music" sounded like. The best we can get is educated reconstructive interpretations as can be heared on some of the sources mentioned.
Quote from: Blackhand;453420They made soundtracks for the Total War games.
Check out the soundtracks for Rome: Total War. Awesome and epic.
It sure doesn't sound bad, but it's nigh indistinguishable from OSTs for fantasy CRPGs. - Case in point: this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAlMaVYIzqw) sounds like a lesser version of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxkO9Q85EaA). Not to mention the Latin pronounciation in this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irXQid4peS0) makes me cringe.
Just to repeat: it's not bad music, it just doesn't strike me as (for want of a better word) immersive. So while we're at genre-defying music, I'd also recommend having a go at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN-af1-Kcaw).
Quote from: Benoist;453401Does the Gladiator soundtrack do it too, or did it suck? I don't remember off the bat, but have my doubts now that I think of it. Thinking of the way Commodus was portrayed gives me shivers...
It's usual Hans Zimmer fare, who did much, much better in his later years (Dark Knight, Inception - which are absolutely awesome). That said, the last song on that soundtrack is beautiful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHAvjaHtlMA).
And oh, who cares about Commodus - I was impressed they made a bare two lines towards the end of Aurelius'
Meditations into an ok-ish protagonist (Maximus).
Aren't the Romans were fond of pan pipes and flutes?
Drums were used on Galleys, probably in the regular army as well.
Trumpets and horns were used and appear in military, parade and band illustrations.
The Romans used Organs, powered by bellows.
The Kithara, a stringed instrument was the most common musical instrument.
For vocals opera style singing was the norm, and Roman Choral music was renowned in the Mediterranean.
... and they used Harps, of course. Carryover from ancient times.
Quote from: Windjammer;453543And oh, who cares about Commodus - I was impressed they made a bare two lines towards the end of Aurelius' Meditations into an ok-ish protagonist (Maximus).
When Gladiator came out, I had just finished writing a college paper on the meditations. Was really cool to find out there was a new sword and sandals film with Aurelius in it.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;453548When Gladiator came out, I had just finished writing a college paper on the meditations. Was really cool to find out there was a new sword and sandals film with Aurelius in it.
Actually, the most impressive reference was the scene in which Commodus strangles Aurelius, and we get prolonged shots at a bust of Socrates. Those shots, and the dialogue which precede them - in which Aurelius and Commodus contrast (what they take to be) their representative virtues, climaxing in Aurelius hugging Commodus with the words 'Your failure as a son are my failures as a father' - is a subtle reference to Plato's dialogue
Meno (sections 94a and following), in which Socrates queries why fathers fail to pass on their virtues to their sons, naming the (obvious) example of Pericles and his two sons. That reference is impossible to get if you aren't already quite familiar with Plato's works. But if you are, that's a real treat, right there.
Damn, just accidentally deleted a post full of links. Basically, look up Euripedes' Orestes and the Song of Seikilos. Also some drama students did the Parodos from Agamemnon in a reconstructed Attic accent which gets across the chanting rhythm of the piece. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEjBEVFRM7)
Quote from: Windjammer;453543And oh, who cares about Commodus - I was impressed they made a bare two lines towards the end of Aurelius' Meditations into an ok-ish protagonist (Maximus).
Well, I care. Commodus didn't deserve such a portrayal in the movie. He wasn't nearly as bad as a Nero or Caligula, actually reigned with his father for three years before he died, and governed afterwards rather well when compared to earlier psychopaths. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus) There's a kind of sad irony in making him a bad guy in a big budget movie, to me. It's like the movie makers just retained Gibbon's idea that the decline of the Roman Empire started with him, which is kind of a shortcut that doesn't mean that he, personally, was somehow worse than all his predecessors combined, and just piled on the clichés of everything that was supposedly wrong with all the emperors on his character for the sake of poetic license.
Quote from: Windjammer;453542It sure doesn't sound bad, but it's nigh indistinguishable from OSTs for fantasy CRPGs. - Case in point: this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAlMaVYIzqw) sounds like a lesser version of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxkO9Q85EaA). Not to mention the Latin pronounciation in this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irXQid4peS0) makes me cringe.
Just to repeat: it's not bad music, it just doesn't strike me as (for want of a better word) immersive. So while we're at genre-defying music, I'd also recommend having a go at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN-af1-Kcaw).
Our points of view probably rest upon how many hours each of us has sunk into those respective games. I've never played Dragon Age.
Also, I thought Latin is a dead language. We don't know how a lot of it was pronounced. So don't look at it like it's Italian. Also, there's an English version of those tracks.
Quote from: Blackhand;453574Also, I thought Latin is a dead language. We don't know how a lot of it was pronounced.
We have pretty reasonable reconstructions. Latin's never stopped being taught or used.
Oh, I don't even need scholarship to realize that the singers in that TW song don't even bother to hide their bloody American accent. So, even if we knew nothing about Latin pronounciation, we'd still know that Latin people didn't have an American accent.
PS. I wish I could illustrate this better, but here's the same point about two modern languages (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wV7NqZk3sk).
I don't have a problem with an American accent.
Would it be better if they had an Italian accent? Would that be authentic enough for your game music?
I lost a full post of links as well, yesterday, after hitting the back button one too many times... I think I need to modify firefox to auto-save fetched form pages.
... Anyway, a few good sources came up on a YouTube search for ancient Roman music... The Romans of course, borrowed heavily from the Greeks, using many of the same musical instruments right up until the end of the Western Empire..
From Augusta Raurica last August
Roman Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4CFhrB5j08&feature=player_profilepage)
Festive Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpW9SGAoZXw&feature=player_profilepage)
Augusta Raurica was a Roman colony in Switzerland on the Rhine that reached a population of 25,000 or so before declining after 300 a.d.
Greek lament, provenance 200-300 a.d. Greece was part of the Roman Empire then...
Greek Lament (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xotPWR5I8RY&feature=related)
This is also Greece, perhaps quite a bit older though, still the same instruments though:
Delphic Paean (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJLZGBYxfbU&feature=related)
Old Roman Chant... This song is not named Gregorian Chant, presumably it was performed in the manner of the Ancient Roman Chants that they were famous for...
Inveni David Servum Meum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK_C_vIa43o)
The Title translates to I have found my servant David. Jewish? Early Christian?
Finally some music for comparison...
Sumerian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H8_13x3JaI)
Parthian or Sassanid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7gvbTGdnk)
Egyptian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBmWXmn11YE&feature=related)
(Modern) Omar Faruk Tekbilek
Song of the Pharoahs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWErSfJWzzo&feature=related)
I Claudius tried it's best to stick with contempary archaeologist's view of early Imperial Roman music including a kickass theme tune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKwaCTfa1EE) but also including this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tebTGIddPDk&feature=related)
Run Fellini's Satryicon in the background. I doubt there's a soundtrack for it, but the language itself adds to the atmo anyway. IIRC the language is Italian, but it, the ambient noise and music and just the film in general are just so fitting IMO. I especially like the bit where the new Emperor's forces march forward or the public baths (Hail the Caesar! Hail the Caesar!).
Gladiator is a bit...soft but works fine for airy moments. HBO's Rome is great for harder stuffs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation
While Latin class was more writing based than say a living language, we certainly did our fair share of speaking Classical Latin (as in the formal stuff spoken in the Late Republic/Early Imperial times). I also remember a professional reading of Cicero's speeches. It's not the same as either Vulgar Latin or Italian, but has some similarities.
Very good for making speeches or the type of poetry used back then. I tend to wave arms and hands about! Main thing is a hard c, no hard v, it's a sharper Italian in a way.
Can't recall what the RCC uses for when they speak Latin nor what was/is used for the Catholic Masses and whatnot.
sidenote: recently picked up Green Ronin's Rome book, Eternal Rome IIRC? through Alliance distro, for $5 or under. It's marked LTD, but I got mine in under 2 weeks! Good fodder esp. for cheap!
Quote from: Ian Warner;453719I Claudius tried it's best to stick with contempary archaeologist's view of early Imperial Roman music including a kickass theme tune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKwaCTfa1EE) but also including this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tebTGIddPDk&feature=related)
I, Claudius is awesome. I have the DVDs and watch them regularly with my wife, who also has been a huge fan since childhood like myself. The books are really good too.
Quote from: Benoist;453869I, Claudius is awesome. I have the DVDs and watch them regularly with my wife, who also has been a huge fan since childhood like myself. The books are really good too.
That was a great mini-series. Loved Hurt as Caligula.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;453871That was a great mini-series. Loved Hurt as Caligula.
I just watched the entire series again last week, actually. :D
I think it's Derek Jacobi's best role. I really love the whole cast. I even forgive Brian Blessed for being himself so much. LOL
Quote from: Benoist;453876I just watched the entire series again last week, actually. :D
I think it's Derek Jacobi's best role. I really love the whole cast. I even forgive Brian Blessed for being himself so much. LOL
And lets not forget Sian Phillips as the treacherous Livia. Now that's Lawful Evil!
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;453885And lets not forget Sian Phillips as the treacherous Livia. Now that's Lawful Evil!
Totally. She is absolutely fabulous. Love to hate her.
Quote from: Benoist;453876I just watched the entire series again last week, actually. :D
I think it's Derek Jacobi's best role. I really love the whole cast. I even forgive Brian Blessed for being himself so much. LOL
My Classics Teacher thinks Blessed was massively miscast as Augustus was supposed to be a scrawny little shit but I quite like him. Especially this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhsY5XEqTWY)
I tend to go for more of an exotic/dramatic fantasy vibe for my game music, and have a "Roman Mix" on my iPad for gaming consisting of the following soundtracks:
Batman Begins
The Fountain
Passion: Music From the Last Temptation of Christ (Peter Gabriel, Milos Forman film version)
The Passion of the Christ (Mel Gibson film)
Troy
Rome
Spartacus
Ben-Hur
300
and the following albums:
In the Garden of Pharoahs, Popul Vuh
On Land, Brian Eno
Quote from: Ian Warner;453944My Classics Teacher thinks Blessed was massively miscast as Augustus was supposed to be a scrawny little shit but I quite like him. Especially this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhsY5XEqTWY)
I can't imagine the series without Blessed. I don't know much about the real augustus, and I assume you teacher is correct in terms of accuracy. But Blessed just worked so well in that role.
Quote from: Benoist;453876I just watched the entire series again last week, actually. :D
I think it's Derek Jacobi's best role. I really love the whole cast. I even forgive Brian Blessed for being himself so much. LOL
I have been meaning to watch the series again sometime soon. At some point I'd love to run a court intrigue game with a similar setting.
Quote from: Ian Warner;453719I Claudius tried it's best to stick with contempary archaeologist's view of early Imperial Roman music including a kickass theme tune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKwaCTfa1EE) but also including this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tebTGIddPDk&feature=related)
That is one of the most astounding moments of the entire series. Where you are just jaw-droppingly blown away by just how absolutely out of his mind Caligula really is. I remember the first time I saw that, as well as the reactions of friends I've shown I Claudius to later.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ian Warner;453944My Classics Teacher thinks Blessed was massively miscast as Augustus was supposed to be a scrawny little shit but I quite like him. Especially this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhsY5XEqTWY)
Physically miscast? Probably, yes. But in terms of gravitas, Blessed's casting was a work of genius. Few other actors could have captured Augustus so well.
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;454098Physically miscast? Probably, yes. But in terms of gravitas, Blessed's casting was a work of genius. Few other actors could have captured Augustus so well.
RPGpundit
I have to agree with you there.
Blessed really shines at making Augustus charismatic but when he decides to mean business he is immensely formidable.
Damnit, you people are going to get me to watch I, Claudius again for the first time in yonks.
This is a good thing! :hatsoff:
As is Brian Blessed in anything!
Quote from: RPGPundit;454098Physically miscast? Probably, yes. But in terms of gravitas, Blessed's casting was a work of genius. Few other actors could have captured Augustus so well.
RPGpundit
I agree. Blessed plays Blessed very well. It was a stroke of casting genius to have thought that Blessed might have blended well as Augustus. Reading Robert Graves' book, I can see how they thought about this. The passages that describe Augustus as a large child who never really grew up when Claudius talks about his teachers and childhood and how Postumus became the "King" of the kids in college really makes me think of the way Blessed portrayed the character.
I think there's more to say about the format the TV series adopted, and the need to condense so much material into 13 units like this, which led to a whole series of shortcuts whose victims started with the complex multifaceted personality of Augustus as depicted in the book, rather than just go on a assumption that Blessed doesn't "fit" Augustus. He does, in a peculiar way.
Quote from: Cole;454134Blessed really shines at making Augustus charismatic but when he decides to mean business he is immensely formidable.
Augustus and Aggripa dancing around each other playing at being friends (which they really are), while at the same time each trying to get what they want (being part of the Imperial family for Aggripa, getting his friend back to soothe the crowds of Rome angry at Marcellus's death for Augustus) out of each other. Blessed's acting with his eyes is terrific. It's a brilliant scene.
Quote from: RPGPundit;454098Physically miscast? Probably, yes. But in terms of gravitas, Blessed's casting was a work of genius. Few other actors could have captured Augustus so well.
RPGpundit
I agree. Augustus did after all have a Charisma that was in contrast to his rather unimpresive looks and I think in history there are few people that could have written a book that my Latin Master said you can crudely translate as "How fucking Awesome is Augustus? By Augustus"
Slightly off-topic, I'm a bit of a folky, so my brother bought me a cassette of Viking Music for Christmas. It consisted of a bunch of musicians who had studied old music and has reconstructed what kind of music the Vikings would have listened to.
All I can say is that music has come a long way since.
So, I wouldn't go for authentic music of the time - Roman music was probably nowhere near as good as we think it might have been.
Quote from: soltakss;454576Slightly off-topic, I'm a bit of a folky, so my brother bought me a cassette of Viking Music for Christmas. It consisted of a bunch of musicians who had studied old music and has reconstructed what kind of music the Vikings would have listened to.
All I can say is that music has come a long way since.
So, I wouldn't go for authentic music of the time - Roman music was probably nowhere near as good as we think it might have been.
I once bought a music of the Byzantine Empire CD, and it was some pretty discordant stuff. Don't know how authentic it was, but I actually had players requesting it be turned off. Can't say I blame them either.
Quote from: soltakss;454576Slightly off-topic, I'm a bit of a folky, so my brother bought me a cassette of Viking Music for Christmas. It consisted of a bunch of musicians who had studied old music and has reconstructed what kind of music the Vikings would have listened to.
All I can say is that music has come a long way since.
So, I wouldn't go for authentic music of the time - Roman music was probably nowhere near as good as we think it might have been.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;454581I once bought a music of the Byzantine Empire CD, and it was some pretty discordant stuff. Don't know how authentic it was, but I actually had players requesting it be turned off. Can't say I blame them either.
So far I haven't heared reconstructed "ancient" music that was actually pleasant to listen to, to me. In this case I prefer to go for getting a certain atmosphere across, rather than semi-authenticity. We'll never know what the real thing sounded like anyway.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;454581I once bought a music of the Byzantine Empire CD, and it was some pretty discordant stuff. Don't know how authentic it was, but I actually had players requesting it be turned off. Can't say I blame them either.
Most music before the development of polyphony sounds extremely weird to people raised listening to western music.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;454683Most music before the development of polyphony sounds extremely weird to people raised listening to western music.
The thing is I like world music (and I like Gregorian Chant--which I believe is Monophony rather than polyphany). This stuff sounded like the music from Hy-Brasil in Erik the Viking.
Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;454667So far I haven't heard reconstructed "ancient" music that was actually pleasant to listen to, to me. In this case I prefer to go for getting a certain atmosphere across, rather than semi-authenticity. We'll never know what the real thing sounded like anyway.
In this case, it happens to be your cultural bias that is both defining and interfering with the reconstructed "ancient" music. Up thread, I posted a couple video clips from a group that was playing at Augusta Raurica. I picked those particular clips to add to this, because they had selected all of the instruments that were in use at the time of the late empire, which is well documented. They were playing in the remains of the forum in an ancient roman city. I had other clips collected from live outdoor performances from the ruins in Cologne, as well as from Italy, And Spain too, but heard significantly more cultural biases in those performances, so did not opt to link them here.
They appeared to be playing in a very relaxed manner, such as one would expect from street performers, ad-libbing, and even pausing to adjust both the tempo and the rythm. It would be very similar to say, a small group gathering in the forum to play on market day afternoon for a few coins...
The exact Roman melodies preferred and played in ancient times are unknown, however the sound itself, the music, would be instantly familiar to anyone in 200 a.d. that happened to stroll by the forum.
If you listened to either of those videos than you indeed know what the real thing sounds like. You would instantly be able to recognize the Roman songs, and be able to pick them out from say, Egyptian songs, or Parthian songs, or Sumerian music. You could even tell the difference from Greek music, because the Greeks used fewer instruments than the Romans, so the sound was different. Doesn't take an expert to listen, it just takes someone willing to listen.
It never ceases to amaze me, how much modern folk look down on the achievements of their predecessors, especially when it wasn't documented. Come to think of it, Exactly when does proper documentation determine authenticity?
The Egyptian, the Parthian, and the Sumerian songs are an accurate reconstruction because they were based on written and recorded ancient songs.
It is lamentable that modern music has ruined your ear, if not, ...your willingness to hear.
P.S. Augusta Raurica did not fall to any attack from the Germans. It was destroyed in an earthquake, and then abandoned by the Romans as a viable colony location.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;454688The thing is I like world music (and I like Gregorian Chant--which I believe is Monophony rather than polyphany). This stuff sounded like the music from Hy-Brasil in Erik the Viking.
Ugh. Might just've been crappy stuff.
Quote from: GameDaddy;454838In this case, it happens to be your cultural bias that is both defining and interfering with the reconstructed "ancient" music. (...)
It is lamentable that modern music has ruined your ear, if not, ...your willingness to hear.(..)
Could also just be that my personal taste in music is incompatible with this reconstructed "ancient" music. I also happen to not enjoy opera and the majority of classical music. I do enjoy some non-western and traditional types of music but not all.
Also, I take into account my players' enjoyment of the music I use in my games ;). Games are still primarily meant to be a fun pass-time.
Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;454868Games are still primarily meant to be a fun pastime.
Indeed. I could comprehend gamers defining original music, or reconstructions of original music, as
badwrongfun or
not fun if it, say for example, encouraged the players to commit violent acts, or otherwise engage themselves in present day fits of crime, and depravity and so on.
I find it both amusing and entertaining however, when the ancient music is defined as
incompatible with personal taste, or just simply
crappy.
Yes, we have lots of modern instruments, we have electric guitars, and synthesizers capable of making just about any sound imaginable. Yes, as a culture we have a better comprehensive understanding of music. Whether we'll be able to keep this over time though, is highly debatable.
I have to admit, I'm also a bit confused about the part where we as gamers only choose to recreate and add just the parts of history that our players would prefer, as opposed to what actually was, because what was, appears to have lesser qualities than what is now.
Don't we have Disney to do that for us?
One of the reasons Original D&D has remained attractive to me over the years is due to the fact players have to randomly roll up characters. The original Judges Guild variant went so far as to even have the players roll up their alignment.
The concept originally was for the players to step into the places or roles of these fictional characters to take on the fantastic and extraordinary with a set of attributes, skills, and abilities, complete with some of the disadvantages as well.
A Fighter, possessing a Strength of 5 for example, would very quickly have to find an entirely new method of fighting, in the face of a horde of Orcs. Going straight in and standing toe-to-toe with the other fighters was a less than ideal fighting option, so movement, ranged attacks, improvised weapons, and unique weapons, are all very much some new options the weak fighter would need to consider or he/she would die.
Chosen stats, and choosing every facet of character development which has become the norm in roleplaying, severely curtails the development of these new options. It (the rules themselves) limits and focuses the players creativity, not just the GM's.
So too, by omitting actual relevant detail, especially when it comes to historical settings. As a GM, shouldn't you be the one setting aside your personal preferences so that your players may gain a deeper understanding of his/her character, and the environment that character is in?
Quote from: GameDaddy;454838In this case, it happens to be your cultural bias that is both defining and interfering with the reconstructed "ancient" music.
and
Quote from: GameDaddy;454838It is lamentable that modern music has ruined your ear, if not, ...your willingness to hear.
While not directed at my original comment, this does make some assumptions.
I have listened to a fair amount of non-modern music and a lot that doesn't use the polyphonic system. Some isn't to my taste, but I have enjoyed a lot of what I heard. Reconstructions of ancient music, however, haven't really appealed to me. Perhaps the reconstructions I have listened to haven't been the best. I don't think that my ear has been ruined by modern music - I can listen to a lot of traditional music that has an odd sound to me, but which I like.
Quote from: soltakss;454914(...)While not directed at my original comment, this does make some assumptions.
I have listened to a fair amount of non-modern music and a lot that doesn't use the polyphonic system. Some isn't to my taste, but I have enjoyed a lot of what I heard. Reconstructions of ancient music, however, haven't really appealed to me. Perhaps the reconstructions I have listened to haven't been the best. I don't think that my ear has been ruined by modern music - I can listen to a lot of traditional music that has an odd sound to me, but which I like.
I was trying to state more or less the same when I said they were
incompatible with my personal taste. I listened to it... and didn't like it. That's all.
As already said, there's a lot of supposition involved in this sort of thing, and here you may as well just put on whatever you think sounds apropos.
RPGPundit