Can any game other than D&D still get away with requiring you to buy more than one "core" book in order to be able to play?
RPGPundit
Which other RPGs have tried this approach before?
GURPS borders on it. Theoretically you can play with just Characters but really you need a world book and a tech book and a magic book and the Campaigns book.
Rolemaster really needs Arms Law, Character Law, Spell Law, and Creatures and Treasures. Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplay got it down to one book but it wasn't the best idea IMO. It's just not a game you play because you want less.
I don't know if either of them counts as "getting away with it" Rolemaster's only around in .pdf and pod these days and GURPS is a less profitable side line for SJG.
Dresden Files was released as two book, one for the rules and one for the setting. As the rules are not generic Fate but designed specifically for Dresden I would say they counts as core books.
Sure, you can play the game with just the rules, but by the same token you can D&D with just the PHB.
Shadowrun. You can play from the corebook, but there's a splatbook that's pretty essential for your team specialisation.
Of course... you don't need all the splatbooks. Just your one.
Quote from: RPGPundit;583055Can any game other than D&D still get away with requiring you to buy more than one "core" book in order to be able to play?
RPGPundit
off the top of my head...
Warhammer (after 1st edition)
Star Wars (D6)
Rolemaster
GURPs
nWoD
Dragon Age
Dresden Files
Pathfinder
Imagine
The Burning Wheel
7th Sea
...it's not an approach I like. For me, WHFRP 1E still, this many years later, sets the standard for a "complete" RPG core book. Very few games have managed to rise above the supplement mill approach, though quite a few are at least playable with the main book if you're willing to make up most of the game yourself (which I generally am).
Quote from: Ladybird;583076Shadowrun. You can play from the corebook, but there's a splatbook that's pretty essential for your team specialisation.
Of course... you don't need all the splatbooks. Just your one.
I've played 2e off and on for close to 20 years. Have never bought a single supplement.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583077off the top of my head...
Warhammer (after 1st edition)
Star Wars (D6)
Rolemaster
GURPs
nWoD
Dragon Age
Dresden Files
Pathfinder
Imagine
The Burning Wheel
7th Sea
...it's not an approach I like. For me, WHFRP 1E still, this many years later, sets the standard for a "complete" RPG core book. Very few games have managed to rise above the supplement mill approach, though quite a few are at least playable with the main book if you're willing to make up most of the game yourself (which I generally am).
And this is the issue with discussions of "stand alone" corebook. Many on that list are distinct from D&D in that all the rules needed to play are contained in the corebook, but some people have a perception that they are somehow incomplete, such as:
Warhammer (after 1st edition) - both 2e and 3e have complete rules for play
Star Wars (D6) - has complete rules for play
nWoD - has complete rules for play as mortals
Dragon Age - has complete rules for play up to level 5
The Burning Wheel - the two books that have complete rules for play are purchased as a single item.
Hero 6E tried this, and the reactions were decidedly mixed.
(Also, is volume 1 still out of print?)
Quote from: TristramEvans;583079I've played 2e off and on for close to 20 years. Have never bought a single supplement.
Im with Tristram on this one. Played Shadowrun 2e for a very long time before buying the first supplement (Street Samurai Catalog), and it worked perfectly.
Quote from: Skywalker;583083And this is the issue with discussions of "stand alone" corebook. Many on that list are distinct from D&D in that all the rules needed to play are contained in the corebook, but some people have a perception that they are somehow incomplete, such as:
Warhammer (after 1st edition) - both 2e and 3e have complete rules for play
It's been a long time since I looked at 2e, but with 3e you either need at least 2 books, 3 if you want stats for monsters. More if you want the dice and such. There is the option of the big boxed set which has all you need to play for about 3 players + gm, but about 1/10th of the info in the books without the rules updates.
QuoteStar Wars (D6) - has complete rules for play
Not the 1st edition. 2 books. Unless you don't actually want to play Star Wars, but a generic space game.
QuotenWoD - has complete rules for play as mortals
Okay, but say you want to play ANY of the gamelines: Promethean, Vampire, Changeling. None of these are complete games. Hence "nWoD" , not "mortals".
QuoteDragon Age - has complete rules for play up to level 5
and then...?
QuoteThe Burning Wheel - the two books that have complete rules for play are purchased as a single item.
They can be, or not. Just like you could purchase at various times, for D&D, a boxed set of the Player's Guide and DM's Guide. Two UPCs.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;583085Hero 6E tried this, and the reactions were decidedly mixed.
Did it stop anyone other than me from buying it?
Quote from: TristramEvans;583098It's been a long time since I looked at 2e, but with 3e you either need at least 2 books, 3 if you want stats for monsters. More if you want the dice and such. There is the option of the big boxed set which has all you need to play for about 3 players + gm, but about 1/10th of the info in the books without the rules updates.
Yes, you get all of this if you buy the single box set. The books were released later as an optional path. You are right that for that path, you need to buy several products.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583098Not the 1st edition. 2 books.
I played with just the 1e Star Wars WEG book for years. It requires no other books that I am aware of.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583098Okay, but say you want to play ANY of the gamelines: Promethean, Vampire, Changeling. None of these are complete games. Hence "nWoD" , not "mortals".
I agree that Vampire the Requiem et al are not complete games in one book. But nWoD is a complete rulebook for horror games set in nWoD with mortal PCs.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583098and then...?
All RPGs that have level based advancement have an end point. This is rarely seen as a reason to call them incomplete. Even Dragon Age will have an end point at level 20, which if you applied your criteria would make it technically never complete.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583098They can be, or not. Just like you could purchase at various times, for D&D a boxed set of the Player's Guide and DM's Guide. Two UPCs.
BWHQ sells them as a set, and the split is merely for convenience. Other RPGs are done this way, often contained in a slipcase or some such.
Sure, they may be split in the second hand market but this is no different than if someone ripped out chapters from a rulebook and tried to sell them seperately. I don't think that qualifies the game requiring multiple core products.
The one thing that this does highlight IMO is that though very few publishers create multiple "Core" products in the way D&D does, they do strive for ways to make their customers feel a need to own and buy other products. Its a conflict between the customer's desire to have a complete product and the publisher's desire to sell more product. D&D is different in that it is blatantly honest about the approach and does not try and even provide a single core product.
Fireborn (player/GM split)
Dragon Warriors (Corgi edition; book 1 had the rules for knights and barbarians and general adventuring, book 2 had sorcerer and mystic and magic rules, book 4 had assassin and stealth rules, etc.)
Some foreign examples:
Das Schwarze Auge (fighter/wizard/cleric/GM split)
Midgard (fourth edition; general rules/magic/GM split)
Meikyuu Kingdom (second edition; player/GM split)
Sword World 2.0 (in the BECMI/Dragon Age sense: higher levels in later products)
Quote from: Skywalker;583104Yes, you get all of this if you buy the single box set. The books were released later as an optional path. You are right that for that path, you need to buy several products.
So yes, it's a gameline with multiple "core products", just like D&D, which has also offered starter boxes with the release of almost every edition, and just like WH3E the boxed set has less info than the individual volumes.
QuoteI played with just the 1e Star Wars WEG book for years. It requires no other books that I am aware of.
Then you weren't aware of the second book and just made the stuff up yourself. More on that in a bit....
QuoteI agree that Vampire the Requiem et al are not complete games in one book. But nWoD is a complete rulebook for horror games set in nWoD with mortal PCs.
The acronym nWoD does not refer to The World of Darkness book with rules for playing mortals, it refers to several gamelines including Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, all of which require two core books. Just as oWoD refers to a number of gamelines that did not require two core books to play.
Another example would be the SiliCore gameline, including Heavy Gear and Tribe 8. To play any of the games required the purchase of the setting book ("player's guide") and the SiliCORE main rules.
QuoteAll RPGs that have level based advancement have an end point. This is rarely seen as a reason to call them incomplete. Even Dragon Age will have an end point at level 20, which if you applied your criteria would make it technically never complete.
No, if you applied my criteria, a game that has a stated limit of 20 levels, advertised as such
before releasing the first product, obviously expects players to buy several products to play the whole game.
QuoteBWHQ sells them as a set, and the split is merely for convenience.
So, exactly the same as D&D.
QuoteOther RPGs are done this way, often contained in a slipcase or some such.
Games in slipcases rarely sell the individual volumes seperately, and the slipcase itself has a UPC as an individual product. BW did not have a slipcase, you can purchase the books individually
or with a small strip of cardboard holding them together.
QuoteSure, they may be split in the second hand market but this is no different than if someone ripped out chapters from a rulebook and tried to sell them seperately. I don't think that qualifies the game requiring multiple core products.
No, you could order the individual books seperately. From Diamond. First hand market. And you're still missing another core product, if you want any stats for monsters or any creature besides the 4 character races.
QuoteThe one thing that this does highlight IMO is that though very few publishers create multiple "Core" products in the way D&D does
Actually it highlights the exact opposite. What you're showing is that you're applying completely different standards to D&D and the rest of these products.
You "can" play D&D with just the PG. If you're willing to make up the rest of the game yourself. That's true of all of these games, except Burning Wheel. The "full game rules" however, are not included in the PG, just as they aren't included in any 1 of the books mentioned above.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332The acronym nWoD does not refer to The World of Darkness book with rules for playing mortals, it refers to several gamelines including Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, all of which require two core books.
The mortal line, starting with
The World of Darkness,
is the core game, though. All the others are essentially expansion sets and more detailed campaign settings.
Quote from: GrimGent;583335The mortal line, starting with The World of Darkness, is the core game, though. All the others are essentially expansion sets and more detailed campaign settings.
Nope.
I too pretty much ran Star Wars with just the 1ed rulebook. Over time I somehow acquired a bunch of other WEG Star Wars books but I never really used or even read them.
Of course the way I ran Star Wars was never very Star Warsy or remotely canonical so I'm not sure this counts.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332So yes, it's a gameline with multiple "core products", just like D&D, which has also offered starter boxes with the release of almost every edition, and just like WH3E the boxed set has less info than the individual volumes.
But you can buy WFRP3e in a single product.
I guess an argument could be said that the fact the 3 D&D corebooks can be purchased in a slip case is the same as this, but I think this just goes toward the fact that its really hard to define multiple "core" products.
I personally see the WFRP3e single box as distinct from D&D's 3 core book approach, as the initial release saw WFRP3e only available as a single core product. But I can see how this one is potentially a grey area.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332Then you weren't aware of the second book and just made the stuff up yourself. More on that in a bit....
Are you referring to the Star Wars Sourcebook? If that's the case, then even that book was neither comprehensive nor necessary.
And yes, I have to make a lot of stuff up in any RPG I play, regardless of how many core books it has. That's the nature of the beast. Star Wars WEG1e, however, contained all the rules needed to play in the rulebook and any making stuff up was more examples. Star Wars WEG 1e is a complete core book by any reasonable definition I am aware of.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332The acronym nWoD does not refer to The World of Darkness book with rules for playing mortals, it refers to several gamelines including Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, all of which require two core books. Just as oWoD refers to a number of gamelines that did not require two core books to play.
I am not sure where you got the idea that nWoD does not include mortalsas there is direct support for that play style in the nWoD books themselves. This seems like a self imposed restriction.
But, as said, I agree that playing any Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, does require two books though.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332Another example would be the SiliCore gameline, including Heavy Gear and Tribe 8. To play any of the games required the purchase of the setting book ("player's guide") and the SiliCORE main rules.
I agree in terms of the settings. SilCore, however, was presented as a complete generic system in one book and could be used in and of itself with a setting of your own creation. It is no different from any generic system, like Savage Worlds, with settings attached. Or are we suggesting that Savage Worlds is not a complete core book?
I see the approach of SilCore, nWoD, True20, Savage Worlds, GURPS etc as distinct from D&D's 3 core book approach.
As an aside, if we adopted this definition, then D&D would actually require 4 core books to be complete, as it would need a setting book as well. :)
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332No, if you applied my criteria, a game that has a stated limit of 20 levels, advertised as such before releasing the first product, obviously expects players to buy several products to play the whole game.
Expectations of what is to be purchased doesn't impact on the underlying playability of the product. This again goes to the tension between the publisher wanting to sell books by making them seem necessary but also providing a complete game in one product.
In any case, if the OP considers BECMI to be a game with multiple "core" books, then I agree that Dragon Age is of similar nature. I just don't think this is the kind of split the OP was getting at.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332So, exactly the same as D&D.
I am not aware of any distributor that split them up, but if Diamond did so with BWHQ's consent then I agree with you.
As above, would you argue that Dragon Age requires multiple core products solely on the basis it has two books in the box set?
Quote from: TristramEvans;583332Actually it highlights the exact opposite. What you're showing is that you're applying completely different standards to D&D and the rest of these products.
You "can" play D&D with just the PG. If you're willing to make up the rest of the game yourself. That's true of all of these games, except Burning Wheel. The "full game rules" however, are not included in the PG, just as they aren't included in any 1 of the books mentioned above.
FWIW I am not isolating D&D from the underlying urge for publishers create RPGs that make the customer feel a need to purchase more books. There are many RPGs that do this. However, I do think D&D's particular approach, which is what I think the OP is getting at, is not that common.
As said, what constitutes a single "core" product is a more difficult task than I think the OP contemplated. Does the OP want to include the kinds of examples you are raising here? Well, that is over to the OP. If so, great.
I've considered publishing an RPG with Magic: the Gathering's attitudes towards core, editions, and organized play.
Firstly that would mean that any and all products would be playable fresh out of the box but the content would vary (different classes, different tiny settings with adventures, different monsters, etc.). No distinction between the introductory product and the expansion material.
Secondly it would mean a new "edition" (probably more properly called an "expansion") would change everything in terms of content, but keep loose backwards compatibility.
Lastly, organized play could some standard of balance by having the equivalent of "formats." This would be more or less built into the differences in setting between expansions anyway. As with magic, casual play and tournament play need not use the same rules/rulings in all cases.
Quote from: Lynn;583101Did it stop anyone other than me from buying it?
There were some who didn't like the fact that Hero's "core" rules went from one book to two, and decided not to buy them, opting to continue playing 5th edition instead. There were others who declined because of rules changes. I'm not sure which lost them more players.
The trend now is to sell Beginner Editions of RPGs. Ugh! Well, TSR did start this ages ago. But come on! Star Wars is copying Pathfinder with pretty maps products.
Quote from: GrimGent;583335The mortal line, starting with The World of Darkness, is the core game, though. All the others are essentially expansion sets and more detailed campaign settings.
I think it is possible to run/play a game with just the World of Darkness book and various expansions like Second Sight. Hunter the Vigil though offers mortals and augmented mortals on top of The World of Darkness - sort of an imperfect fit because thematically it could have fit as an extension to The World of Darkness.
nWOD is the entire generation, but just because a book has nWOD on it doesn't mean its intended for use only with The World of Darkness.
I found it very irritating to have picked up Slasher, and found that much of it really cannot be used without Hunter the Vigil (one of the hardest of the nWOD original books to find). I guess I should have just relied on how they color code their books.
Quote from: Lynn;583353I think it is possible to run/play a game with just the World of Darkness book and various expansions like Second Sight.
Its possible to run/play a mortals horror game with just the WoD rulebook. I have done it.
Quote from: Lynn;583353I found it very irritating to have picked up Slasher, and found that much of it really cannot be used without Hunter the Vigil (one of the hardest of the nWOD original books to find). I guess I should have just relied on how they color code their books.
WW did that on a number of books and it sucked every time - Skin Changers, Changing Breeds, Book of the Dead etc
Star Wars 1E:
Quote from: TristramEvans;583098Not the 1st edition. 2 books. Unless you don't actually want to play Star Wars, but a generic space game.
I hate to disagree, but 1E only required 1 book. The sourcebook was just that, a sourcebook. The rules were all you needed. I know, I have a copy right next to me.
IRWS
I think argument for Star Wars WEG1e (or at least as I have seen it) is that there isn't much examples of things in the book. You get four ships IIRC and a handful of antagonists.
I have seen the same arguments made of WFRP2e. However, these are both made on a percpetion of what a person needs to run a game. It is the kind of definition that can't be determined objectively and, as such, presents difficulties if you lump it in with the likes of D&D's 3 core book approach.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583338Nope.
You can't seriously be claiming that, say, any campaign of exorcising ghosts or investigating conspiracies, using only the basic game, isn't complete without also adding in
Vampire: The Requiem,
Werewolf: The Forsaken,
Mage: The Awakening, etc.? There's a reason why that sort of thing is called "crossover", especially given White Wolf's toolkit approach. The core book for
VtR is only core material for a
VtR campaign, not every nWoD game ever.
Quote from: Lynn;583353nWOD is the entire generation, but just because a book has nWOD on it doesn't mean its intended for use only with The World of Darkness.
Generally, each nWoD supplement expects familiarity with the main book of its respective line as well as the core rules. So for example, one supplement for
Changeling: The Lost doesn't require reading another, let alone
Vampire: The Requiem. There are some books which are meant for use with practically any line, though.
Quote from: Skywalker;583359Its possible to run/play a mortals horror game with just the WoD rulebook. I have done it.
I played a 1 year oWoD campaign with the free quick start rules & the character sheet from the WW site, the Holy Orders Internet rule supplement (free), a set of fan based discipline and Paths rules and some Jyhad cards.
Subsequently I bought Mage, some clan books and a Sabbat book but aside from Mage, which soes have some complex ideas about use of magic, I never really used the others apart from mining for ideas.
If a system is clear and simple and uses a universal mechanic then most of the rest of the book is setting and GM guidance.
Take a typical d20 rule book. Core mechanic roll a d20 add modifiers to hit a target number. There are classes and levels. HPs grow over time (maybe with limits) and weapons do HP damage.
That is basically it you don't need any more rules. You can drop that format into a Wild west game, a horror game , whatever. Its why there was a huge boom in d20 games.
Same is true of most systems.
The stuff that makes systems unique is the IP stuff that sells books. So D&D has 3 main things that add rules
i) More classes with mechanical variation
ii) More monsters
iii) More class abilities - feats, spells, kits etc
Monsters are easy to homebrew but the other two aren't because balance and compatibility come into play.
I am a bit fan of toolkits to show how the designers create these things to allow DMs to create their own but I don't need to make money selling games so ...
Individually the D&D core books are £20, half the price of most other corebooks.
Quote from: GrimGent;583416You can't seriously be claiming that, say, any campaign of exorcising ghosts or investigating conspiracies, using only the basic game, isn't complete without also adding in Vampire: The Requiem, Werewolf: The Forsaken, Mage: The Awakening, etc.? There's a reason why that sort of thing is called "crossover", especially given White Wolf's toolkit approach. The core book for VtR is only core material for a VtR campaign, not every nWoD game ever.
Hey, the man said "Nope". I think that settles it.
Quote from: Skywalker;583371I think argument for Star Wars WEG1e (or at least as I have seen it) is that there isn't much examples of things in the book. You get four ships IIRC and a handful of antagonists.
Contrast that to 2e RE and I think you might begin to understand the criticism.
A Star Wars game isn't just any old 'make it up as you go' science fiction thing. There are preconceived notions about a lot of the characters, vehicles, etc, which are inherent to the setting. If you're running the game for casual fans, okay fine. If you're running the game for people who know as much or more than you do about the setting, having "that's what the book says" to fall back on is a HUGE time saver.
Quote from: GrimGent;583416Generally, each nWoD supplement expects familiarity with the main book of its respective line as well as the core rules. So for example, one supplement for Changeling: The Lost doesn't require reading another, let alone Vampire: The Requiem. There are some books which are meant for use with practically any line, though.
Right. What Im talking about is a book titled:
World of Darkness Slashers
This is not a book for World of Darkness only, but for Hunter the Vigil. Much of the book requires that you have Hunter the Vigil because it builds on the rules that are only available in Hunter the Vigil.
I also have World of Darkness Second Sight. That works with the World of Darkness only book and builds only on that book (with some small reference to the other themed books).
Poor decision making or false advertising? WW engaged in one of them.
Quote from: Lynn;583449What Im talking about is a book titled:
World of Darkness Slashers
Oh, it's the title that you found confusing. True, I don't really see the reasoning behind adding in that "WoD", since even in advance everyone kept talking about it as a
Hunter supplement.
Second Sight is obviously one of the "blue books" for the core line: no ambiguity there.
Quote from: mcbobbo;583439Contrast that to 2e RE and I think you might begin to understand the criticism.
I think its a valid criticism of an RPG. But I just don't think its valid to call Star Wars WEG 1e incomplete.
Quote from: Skywalker;583525I think its a valid criticism of an RPG. But I just don't think its valid to call Star Wars WEG 1e incomplete.
I concur. Just because you don't have official stats for every piece of technolgy and every race that made an appearance in the movies doesn't mean you can't play a "complete" game of Star Wars.
Quote from: Technomancer;583529I concur. Just because you don't have official stats for every piece of technolgy and every race that made an appearance in the movies doesn't mean you can't play a "complete" game of Star Wars.
That seems like a bit of a gap between what was in the book and what I remember expecting to have.
Quote from: GrimGent;583416You can't seriously be claiming that, say, any campaign of exorcising ghosts or investigating conspiracies, using only the basic game, isn't complete without also adding in Vampire: The Requiem, Werewolf: The Forsaken, Mage: The Awakening, etc.?
Nope, never claimed anything of the sort. I brought up the nWoD, which
includes all the gamelines mentioned. And then I clarified that was what I was talking about. If you want to talk about Wod: Mortals as an individual game, that simply has nothing to do with anything I said.
Quote from: Skywalker;583525I think its a valid criticism of an RPG. But I just don't think its valid to call Star Wars WEG 1e incomplete.
It's a game about a specific setting that breaks the information on that game into one book covering the rules, and one book covering the setting. It's not necessary to have both books to play the game, but they are both core products of the original WEG Star Wars gameline.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583540I brought up the nWoD, which includes all the gamelines mentioned.
Right: the new WoD is, obviously, the default setting in which all the games take place. (As
Autumn Nightmares puts it:
"The World of Darkness is a horror setting, but Changeling: The Lost is not solely a horror game.") But then, the same applies to every line in the
old WoD, as well, with only the difference that it didn't feature a single core book for the basic rules.
Quote from: Skywalker;583342But you can buy WFRP3e in a single product. I guess an argument could be said that the fact the 3 D&D corebooks can be purchased in a slip case is the same as this, but I think this just goes toward the fact that its really hard to define multiple "core" products.
Let's try this again. You could buy a boxed set with enough rules to get you started playing D&D. These have been offered with every edition of the game so far, except when BD&D and AD&D first made the split:
(http://www.d-20games.co.uk/images/RedBox.jpg)
(http://blog.binkystick.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/dnd_16ed.jpg)
(http://www.drosi.de/md/md100248a.jpg)
or you can buy the PG, DMG, and MM as separate books. These books contain a vast amount of info not available in the boxed sets.
With WHFRP3E, you can buy the boxed set with enough rules to get you started playing, or you can buy the PG, GMG, and MM as separate books. These books contain a vast amount of info not available in the boxed set.
I'm not seeing any difference here.
QuoteIn any case, if the OP considers BECMI to be a game with multiple "core" books, then I agree that Dragon Age is of similar nature. I just don't think this is the kind of split the OP was getting at.
Fair enough, that also is a slightly different approach, one spearheaded by D&D when it first became "Basic".
QuoteAs above, would you argue that Dragon Age requires multiple core products solely on the basis it has two books in the box set?
QuoteI see the approach of SilCore, nWoD, True20, Savage Worlds, GURPS etc as distinct from D&D's 3 core book approach.
I agree the approach is different. In this case, the gamelines revolve around 1rules-set (although in GURPs case, it's still 2 core products). So, if we're going to strictly define it not as games that require more than one book, rather games that specifically follow the path of D&D where there is a seperate player's guide with the core rules for the game and chargen, a GM's guide with the rules for running the game, that can be purchased seperately, even if they are, like D&D, often also offered together in one boxed set (I have only seen 2 RPGs making use of slipcases in the last 30 years, so I'd just as soon see those as variations on a boxed set).
It is a different approach, however, and of the ones mentioned so far in the post WH3E is the only one that exactly mirrors D&D's approach. There are a few other games, but it tends to be something identified with D&D-like fantasy gamelines specifically. The rather dreadful Fantasy Heartbreaker Imagine RPG did it, as did many of the awful d20 variations.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583541It's a game about a specific setting that breaks the information on that game into one book covering the rules, and one book covering the setting. It's not necessary to have both books to play the game, but they are both core products of the original WEG Star Wars gameline.
Again, are you referring to the Star Wars Sourcebook? If so, I don't think that book was intended to be used the way you have suggested. It was an expansion of the Star Wars WEG1e rulebook with more examples. It was not a setting book for Star Wars IMO
Quote from: TristramEvans;583548Let's try this again. You could buy a boxed set with enough rules to get you started playing D&D.
Good point on the Black Box set shown. That came out at the same time as the initial three books and had PC creation rules IIRC. If that is right then I think it is analagous, though the fact that WFRP3e released the box set a year or so in advance of the books is still a significant factor.
In terms of the other two, the material presented in them differed from the three core books as they lacked the PC creation rules from the RPG, so I don't think they are analogous to the WFRP3e's approach. They are intended to provide a preview and not a complete RPG.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583548With WHFRP3E, you can buy the boxed set with enough rules to get you started playing, or you can buy the PG, GMG, and MM as separate books. These books contain a vast amount of info not available in the boxed set.
I disagree with your assessment here. The box set for WFRP3e contained all the substantial rules for play that were found in those books. The books, which were released years after, added material, such as new careers, subsystems, monster etc, which are not needed to play the game.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583548So, if we're going to strictly define it not as games that require more than one book, rather games that specifically follow the path of D&D where there is a seperate player's guide with the core rules for the game and chargen, a GM's guide with the rules for running the game, that can be purchased seperately, even if they are, like D&D, often also offered together in one boxed set (I have only seen 2 RPGs making use of slipcases in the last 30 years, so I'd just as soon see those as variations on a boxed set).
It seems the OP has bailed on clarifying his question :)
Quote from: Skywalker;583550Again, are you referring to the Star Wars Sourcebook? If so, I don't think that book was intended to be used the way you have suggested. It was an expansion of the Star Wars WEG1e rulebook with more examples. It was not a setting book for Star Wars IMO
Which one had stats for all the major characters in the setting?
Quote from: TristramEvans;583553Which one had stats for all the major characters in the setting?
You don't need stats of major characters to play the Star Wars RPG.
Quote from: Skywalker;583554You don't need stats of major characters to play the Star Wars RPG.
You also don't need the DMG or M&M to play D&D. So what the OP meant was obviously not limited to just the book with the basic or enough rules to play if you're willing to make up the rest.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583558You also don't need the DMG or M&M to play D&D. So what the OP meant was obviously not limited to just the book with the basic or enough rules to play if you're willing to make up the rest.
In AD&D1e, the rules for combat were in the DMG. In D&D3e IIRC and 4e, rules for awarding XP are in the DMG. Also, magic items are an integral part of how the system operates in D&D3e and were contained in the DMG.
I kind of agree with you on the MM, though I think missing monsters in D&D is a magnitude of difference from missing notable NPCs in Star Wars.
FWIW I agree that you could play D&D with just the PHB, but the stuff that you are making up aren't examples of the rules in operation, but core operating rules themselves.
Quote from: Skywalker;583562FWIW I agree that you could play D&D with just the PHB, but the stuff that you are making up aren't examples of the rules in operation, but core operating rules themselves.
No, I don't think you can safely determine magic items to be 'core operating rules'. What about low-magic settings? They're every bit as much flavor as the 'examples' left out of the Star Wars book.
Further, I don't think you can safely do any 'branded' setting without including all the major points under that brand. Doesn't matter if it is Star Wars, Star Trek, Buffy, or whatnot. You need to either touch all the bases lightly, or limit the campaign to the 'starter' material.
If we were talking about the D6 system, uncoupled from Star Wars the RPG, that would be different.
Quote from: mcbobbo;583566No, I don't think you can safely determine magic items to be 'core operating rules'. What about low-magic settings? They're every bit as much flavor as the 'examples' left out of the Star Wars book.
Its a gray area. For AD&D1e and 2e, I think you have a strong argument. However, D&D3e does make assumptions about the magic items in how the rules operate. So, I think the argument is less stronger there. In D&D4e, the magic item rules were moved to the PHB, though the assumptions of how they would be used are in the DMG.
Notable NPCs are not an assumption in terms of how the Star Wars WEG1e rules operate.
Quote from: mcbobbo;583566Further, I don't think you can safely do any 'branded' setting without including all the major points under that brand. Doesn't matter if it is Star Wars, Star Trek, Buffy, or whatnot. You need to either touch all the bases lightly, or limit the campaign to the 'starter' material.
At what point must setting be included to make an RPG a complete RPG though? This cannot be objectively answered, so it makes it difficult to use as a gauge for anything but a generic settingless RPG where it is irrelevant.
For example, Star Wars WEG 1e does include elements of the Star Wars setting and storymaking in the core book. At what point does that get gauged to be sufficient or insufficient to provide completeness? FWIW if you throw setting contained in the book in isolation into the mix then I would say that Star Wars Sourcebook is insufficient to provide completeness. It would be a poor setting book and doesn't cover all the major points IMO
You don't need any of the main characters from the movies for a Star Wars game to be "Star Wars". There is enough flavor in the template descriptions, examples, and sample adventures that with the 1E rulebook you could almost play a game of "Star Wars" without ever having seen the movies.
I can assure you I have played several games of "real" Star Wars with just the rule book.
Quote from: Skywalker;583562I kind of agree with you on the MM, though I think missing monsters in D&D is a magnitude of difference from missing notable NPCs in Star Wars.
The difference is that everything in the
Star Wars Sourcebook can be found in the 1st Edition core rulebook: Starship stats? Droids? Aliens? Equipment? NPCs? The core rulebook has all of these things. The
Sourcebook only served to expand your options in this areas.
By contrast, if you don't have the MM for 2E and 3E you don't have any monster stats at all. There's a major component of the game that's entirely missing.
Quote from: mcbobbo;583566No, I don't think you can safely determine magic items to be 'core operating rules'. What about low-magic settings? They're every bit as much flavor as the 'examples' left out of the Star Wars book.
No, actually, this is another big difference: There are PHB class abilities in 3E that you can't use unless you own the DMG and the MM. Sure, we could hypothesize some house ruled version of 3E in which those class abilities doesn't exist. But that would be completely inverted from the
Star Wars example (where you would need to add house rules in order to make the
Sourcebook a required volume).
Quote from: Technomancer;583577You don't need any of the main characters from the movies for a Star Wars game to be "Star Wars". There is enough flavor in the template descriptions, examples, and sample adventures that with the 1E rulebook you could almost play a game of "Star Wars" without ever having seen the movies.
I can assure you I have played several games of "real" Star Wars with just the rule book.
That a person can play a game with just the rules from one book is not in question, as this is not contrary to the format of D&D. The big difference between the two is that D&D is a genre game. It has no specific setting, rather an implied setting. If the game in question was a culture game, like Tekumel, then the game would not be "complete" with just the rules, if no information was given on the setting. Star Wars has a specific setting. The majority of the information on that setting and how it translates into game terms are in the Star Wars sourcebook, thus it is a core product. A person "could " play a Star Wars game with any generic system if they wanted, depending on what they were willing to invent on their own.
What makes a gamebook "complete" is an argument that's as old as online forums, so obviously I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me, but my assesment of what constitutes a "core product" of a gameline is what books are required to provide all the information and rules needed to run the game as the game was intended to be played by the authors.
Quote from: Skywalker;583562In AD&D1e, the rules for combat were in the DMG.
In brown box D&D the rules for combat were in another product of the buyer's choice. And you could also, at the time AD&D was published, buy the "complete rules" for play in one boxed set.
QuoteIn D&D3e IIRC and 4e, rules for awarding XP are in the DMG.
But the game is playable without these. The DM can make these up as he sees fit, or the players can play 1st level characters without needing the other product, basically fulflilling the same standards you applied to the Dragon Age boxed set 1.
QuoteAlso, magic items are an integral part of how the system operates in D&D3e and were contained in the DMG.
You're saying it was impossible to play 3e without magic items rules? I disagree.
QuoteI kind of agree with you on the MM, though I think missing monsters in D&D is a magnitude of difference from missing notable NPCs in Star Wars.
Yet you don't consider the monster manuals of any other RPG besides D&D to be "core products"?
Again, the problem is that you're constantly altering your standards depending on what game you're talking about. If lacking the rules for creating magic items is a loss of "core operating rules" in D&D, how is the same not applicable to Burning Wheel? If you consider the MM a core product of D&D , how is that not also true of WHFRP 2e, or any other number of games?
The OP may not be clarifying, but you certainly can at least come up with your own standards for what constitutes a core product and stick with them, so at least we'd be able to say "okay, here we disagree", rather than the somewhat nonsensical approach of holding every RPG to completely different standards than the game its being compared to.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583743Star Wars has a specific setting. The majority of the information on that setting and how it translates into game terms are in the Star Wars sourcebook, thus it is a core product. A person "could " play a Star Wars game with any generic system if they wanted, depending on what they were willing to invent on their own.
My view as well.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583743That a person can play a game with just the rules from one book is not in question, as this is not contrary to the format of D&D. The big difference between the two is that D&D is a genre game. It has no specific setting, rather an implied setting. If the game in question was a culture game, like Tekumel, then the game would not be "complete" with just the rules, if no information was given on the setting. Star Wars has a specific setting. The majority of the information on that setting and how it translates into game terms are in the Star Wars sourcebook, thus it is a core product. A person "could " play a Star Wars game with any generic system if they wanted, depending on what they were willing to invent on their own.
What makes a gamebook "complete" is an argument that's as old as online forums, so obviously I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me, but my assesment of what constitutes a "core product" of a gameline is what books are required to provide all the information and rules needed to run the game as the game was intended to be played by the authors.
Whatever, dude. There is enough info on the setting in just the rule book to play Star Wars, without making anything up (other than maybe NPC write-ups). Just because some parts of the setting are not in the main rule book does not mean there is not enough there to play Star Wars. That's like saying a WW2 game is incomplete without stats for every ship, tank, airplane, and firearm. I suppose that's a valid point of view, if not very reasonable in my view.
Quote from: Technomancer;583762That's like saying a WW2 game is incomplete without stats for every ship, tank, airplane, and firearm. I suppose that's a valid point of view, if not very reasonable in my view.
Of course it isn't very reasonable - you designed it as such, to support your argument.
My expectation would be that every vehicle, race, and piece of equipment
featured in the three movies would be detailed. Not every piece of scenery, but everything that gets actual screen time, influences the plot, etc. Because chances are you're going to want to emulate this at some point. This would be the entire reason for using that setting over a generic one.
It might help to cover what is actually in that first edition book. Anyone still have one? I'm pretty sure I don't, but I can check when I get home.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583745And you could also, at the time AD&D was published, buy the "complete rules" for play in one boxed set.
I assume you are referring to B/X or BECMI D&D? If so, then yeah, I think there is an argument to say that they were complete games. Assuming you don't apply the definition you applied to Dragon Age of course.
I also think there would be an argument that these are distinct from AD&D, but I think that's for another thread.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583745But the game is playable without these. The DM can make these up as he sees fit, or the players can play 1st level characters without needing the other product, basically fulflilling the same standards you applied to the Dragon Age boxed set 1.
No. When core rules are missing then its incomplete. That's the case, if you play without the DMG and arguably the MM but not Dragon Age.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583745You're saying it was impossible to play 3e without magic items rules? I disagree.
I am saying that D&D3e is incomplete without magic items given that their use was an assumption of the core rules. The DMG also has other core rules that make it incomplete with the PHB alone.
On saying that, I agree, you can play D&D with just the PHB. Hell, you could do it without any books I imagine. But you would be doing so with several core rules missing or replaced. The ability to RPG with a book alone doesn't dictate whether the RPG incomplete or not in one book.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583745Yet you don't consider the monster manuals of any other RPG besides D&D to be "core products"?
I would consider that there are other RPGs where having monsters would be a core rule. I can't recall any of those not that don't have at least some monsters in the core book though.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583745If lacking the rules for creating magic items is a loss of "core operating rules" in D&D, how is the same not applicable to Burning Wheel? If you consider the MM a core product of D&D , how is that not also true of WHFRP 2e, or any other number of games?
If the rules operate on the assumption that magic items are used, then its an issue. That's not the case in WFRP or many other games.
Okay, so if it were possible to pirate a PDF of this 1987 production, and I'm not saying it is or isn't, a person might make the case that there are exactly five ships in the 1e game.
There's no Y-Wing, no Star Destroyer, no Tie Interceptor, no Slave 1, etc. (Note the Y-Wing does appear later, in an adventure...)
And this list is far less than 'every' ship in the setting. These are just those featured prominently in the films. If you wanted to use the provided Millennium Falcon stats to recreate the escape from Tatooine in the first film, how do you do that without making things up? How many hits from a Star Destroyer can it take? What if the players want to attack it and bring it down, like in RoTJ? Is it possible? Do you railroad it away as 'impossible'? Vis-a-vis Boba Fett (or similar bounty hunter).
There are also exactly three 'stock characters'.
Finally, the only representation of races are the three or four character templates.
It isn't impossible to play out the movies with just this book, but isn't anything close to an ideal situation either. You get a small handful of examples and that's it.
As said above, I think it is a valid criticism that Star Wars WEG1e does not have much "stuff" in the core book. That is equally valid of the Star Wars Sourcebook too. But I don't think its a valid criticism to say its incomplete in the same way that the PHB is incomplete.
Quote from: Skywalker;583783As said above, I think it is a valid criticism that Star Wars WEG1e does not have much "stuff" in the core book. That is equally valid of the Star Wars Sourcebook too. But I don't think its a valid criticism to say its incomplete in the same way that the PHB is incomplete.
If you hold both books to the same standard, then you're probably right.
Though, I don't find it reasonable to do that, for reasons already discussed. Chiefly they have different goals.
Quote from: mcbobbo;583785Though, I don't find it reasonable to do that, for reasons already discussed. Chiefly they have different goals.
I am not sure what's unreasonable about it.
Saying that the Star Wars WEG1e doesn't have much stuff in it and the PHB is an incomplete rulebook is more informative as a criticism than trying to lump this all into a single category of "they are incomplete".
Quote from: Technomancer;583762That's like saying a WW2 game is incomplete without stats for every ship, tank, airplane, and firearm. I suppose that's a valid point of view, if not very reasonable in my view.
Not every one, but more than 1 or 2, yes. I also would say that a WW@ game is incomplete if it has no rules for mass combat (I'm looking at you Godlike).
Chaosium's RuneQuest II was always a three-book game.
You needed the core rules, Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror to play.
Quote from: TristramEvans;583077off the top of my head...
Warhammer (after 1st edition)
Star Wars (D6)
Rolemaster
GURPs
nWoD
Dragon Age
Dresden Files
Pathfinder
Imagine
The Burning Wheel
7th Sea
...it's not an approach I like. For me, WHFRP 1E still, this many years later, sets the standard for a "complete" RPG core book. Very few games have managed to rise above the supplement mill approach, though quite a few are at least playable with the main book if you're willing to make up most of the game yourself (which I generally am).
I'm talking about games that are being sold today (2012); are there any that require some kind of combo of books (ie. PHB + DMG + MM) to be playable at all, that are doing well, other than D&D?
So for example, from your answers many are irrelevant. WFRP 3e is a single product. Star Wars has no current edition. Rolemaster is basically dead. I don't remember if GURPS 4e absolutely needs both player and GM books to be run (I know it had both)? nWoD is a single standalone book. Is 7th sea in print?!
You're right, of course, about Pathfinder.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;584285I'm talking about games that are being sold today (2012); are there any that require some kind of combo of books (ie. PHB + DMG + MM) to be playable at all, that are doing well, other than D&D?
So for example, from your answers many are irrelevant. WFRP 3e is a single product. Star Wars has no current edition. Rolemaster is basically dead. I don't remember if GURPS 4e absolutely needs both player and GM books to be run (I know it had both)? nWoD is a single standalone book. Is 7th sea in print?!
You're right, of course, about Pathfinder.
RPGPundit
The answer to the implied question is Arrows of Indra should probably be a single book and not be split into 3.
I think you could get away with a Player book and a GM book that combined monsters and GM stuff but you would need to put the whole thing in a box which increases production costs a great deal.
Quote from: jibbajibba;584288The answer to the implied question is Arrows of Indra should probably be a single book and not be split into 3.
I think you could get away with a Player book and a GM book that combined monsters and GM stuff but you would need to put the whole thing in a box which increases production costs a great deal.
LOL. Please, there is no plan to release Arrows of Indra as anything other than a single book. There was no "implied question" to this thread. Maybe there was an "implied statement", which would be that I don't believe that a game can be released these days with more than one "core product" requirement, excepting D&D and Pathfinder.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jibbajibba;584288The answer to the implied question is Arrows of Indra should probably be a single book and not be split into 3.
I think you could get away with a Player book and a GM book that combined monsters and GM stuff but you would need to put the whole thing in a box which increases production costs a great deal.
We always release our products as a single book (though we are not averse to releasing monster, rules and setting supplements to products down the road). For Arrows of Indra we have no plans for the three book approach and the topic has never been raised by Pundit or anyone else involved. The only thing different about it from previous releases,in terms of format, is its size. Though our other books usually reach about 110 pages, Arrows of Indra will be closer to 190 to accomodate its content.
In future we may release other 190 page book but have no plans to offer games split into three volumes or make use of boxed sets (for our purposes boxed sets are simpy impractical).
Quote from: RPGPundit;584522LOL. Please, there is no plan to release Arrows of Indra as anything other than a single book. There was no "implied question" to this thread. Maybe there was an "implied statement", which would be that I don't believe that a game can be released these days with more than one "core product" requirement, excepting D&D and Pathfinder.
RPGPundit
It;'s certainly not a format I like nor appreciate. But then, single volume RPgs have been getting more and more lax as to what is considered "complete" as the supplement-mill print strategy is pretty much implied, to the point that I don't think the world will see anything like WHFRP 1E again in my lifetime.
For as much love as it recieves on the forums, WHFRP 2e was a slap in the face to fans.
Quote from: TristramEvans;584604It;'s certainly not a format I like nor appreciate. But then, single volume RPgs have been getting more and more lax as to what is considered "complete" as the supplement-mill print strategy is pretty much implied, to the point that I don't think the world will see anything like WHFRP 1E again in my lifetime.
For as much love as it recieves on the forums, WHFRP 2e was a slap in the face to fans.
What do you think was missing from WFRP 2e in the corebook?
As for me, every single game I've written is very much complete in one book.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Skywalker;583371I think argument for Star Wars WEG1e (or at least as I have seen it) is that there isn't much examples of things in the book. You get four ships IIRC and a handful of antagonists.
There was actually six ships; an X-wing, a TIE Fighter, a stock Freighter, the
Millenium Falcon, an Imperial Customs Frigate, and a Y-wing in the back adventure.
Quote from: mcbobbo;583439Contrast that to 2e RE and I think you might begin to understand the criticism.
A Star Wars game isn't just any old 'make it up as you go' science fiction thing. There are preconceived notions about a lot of the characters, vehicles, etc, which are inherent to the setting. If you're running the game for casual fans, okay fine. If you're running the game for people who know as much or more than you do about the setting, having "that's what the book says" to fall back on is a HUGE time saver.
In '87, there was a lot less of an "equipment checklist" than there is in 2012.
The main complaint I would have had, is there was no ground vehicles in the original main book; no speeder bikes, snowspeeders, cloud cars, or Imperial Walkers.
I always found the
Rebellion and
Imperial sourcebooks more useful than a lot of the other books, because they were equipment splatbooks, with better organiztion and more gear than the main sourcebook. But neither are "core" books in my mind.
Quote from: RPGPundit;583055Can any game other than D&D still get away with requiring you to buy more than one "core" book in order to be able to play?
RPGPundit
When I designed Shadow, Sword & Spell, I did not go with multiple books. Yes, I have Basic and Expert, but for me, Basic is all you really need to run the game. Expert just gives you more options to add on to the game.
I think the days of requiring a gamer or GM to have multiple books to play a game are over.
Richard
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;584528We always release our products as a single book (though we are not averse to releasing monster, rules and setting supplements to products down the road). For Arrows of Indra we have no plans for the three book approach and the topic has never been raised by Pundit or anyone else involved. The only thing different about it from previous releases,in terms of format, is its size. Though our other books usually reach about 110 pages, Arrows of Indra will be closer to 190 to accomodate its content.
In future we may release other 190 page book but have no plans to offer games split into three volumes or make use of boxed sets (for our purposes boxed sets are simpy impractical).
Are we married too 190 pages? I do not trust you page counting abilities. ;-)
Richard
Quote from: RI2;585046Are we married too 190 pages? I do not trust you page counting abilities. ;-)
Richard
No, it is a rough figure at this stage :)
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;585047No, it is a rough figure at this stage :)
Good, because SoG nearly killed my eyes. :)
Richard
Quote from: RI2;585045When I designed Shadow, Sword & Spell, I did not go with multiple books. Yes, I have Basic and Expert, but for me, Basic is all you really need to run the game. Expert just gives you more options to add on to the game.
I think the days of requiring a gamer or GM to have multiple books to play a game are over.
Richard
Is your basic set something that allows ongoing play for an entire campaign's worth, or is it something like "good for levels 1-2, then you need expert"?
RPGPundit
We're about to release Sixcess Core. It's a single book, multi-genre, universal, D6-based, dice-pool system.
Setting books will be released but are only needed if you want to play in that particular setting.
There is no "default" genre or setting in Sixcess Core. You can build whatever world you want and have at it.
We're about to kickstart Sixcess Core (first week of October 2012). There's a thread elsewhere asking questions on how to make our kickstarter better.