Quote from: TristramEvans;583332The acronym nWoD does not refer to The World of Darkness book with rules for playing mortals, it refers to several gamelines including Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, all of which require two core books.

The mortal line, starting with The World of Darkness, is the core game, though. All the others are essentially expansion sets and more detailed campaign settings.

Quote from: GrimGent;583335The mortal line, starting with The World of Darkness, is the core game, though. All the others are essentially expansion sets and more detailed campaign settings.

Nope.

I too pretty much ran Star Wars with just the 1ed rulebook. Over time I somehow acquired a bunch of other WEG Star Wars books but I never really used  or even read them.

Of course the way I ran Star Wars was never very Star Warsy or remotely canonical so I'm not sure this counts.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583332So yes, it's a gameline with multiple "core products", just like D&D, which has also offered starter boxes with the release of almost every edition, and just like WH3E the boxed set has less info than the individual volumes.

But you can buy WFRP3e in a single product.

I guess an argument could be said that the fact the 3 D&D corebooks can be purchased in a slip case is the same as this, but I think this just goes toward the fact that its really hard to define multiple "core" products.

I personally see the WFRP3e single box as distinct from D&D's 3 core book approach, as the initial release saw WFRP3e only available as a single core product. But I can see how this one is potentially a grey area.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583332Then you weren't aware of the second book and just made the stuff up yourself. More on that in a bit....

Are you referring to the Star Wars Sourcebook? If that's the case, then even that book was neither comprehensive nor necessary.

And yes, I have to make a lot of stuff up in any RPG I play, regardless of how many core books it has. That's the nature of the beast. Star Wars WEG1e, however, contained all the rules needed to play in the rulebook and any making stuff up was more examples. Star Wars WEG 1e is a complete core book by any reasonable definition I am aware of.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583332The acronym nWoD does not refer to The World of Darkness book with rules for playing mortals, it refers to several gamelines including Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, all of which require two core books. Just as oWoD refers to a number of gamelines that did not require two core books to play.

I am not sure where you got the idea that nWoD does not include mortalsas there is direct support for that play style in the nWoD books themselves. This seems like a self imposed restriction.

But, as said, I agree that playing any Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, does require two books though.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583332Another example would be the SiliCore gameline, including Heavy Gear and Tribe 8. To play any of the games required the purchase of the setting book ("player's guide") and the SiliCORE main rules.

I agree in terms of the settings. SilCore, however, was presented as a complete generic system in one book and could be used in and of itself with a setting of your own creation.  It is no different from any generic system, like Savage Worlds, with settings attached. Or are we suggesting that Savage Worlds is not a complete core book?

I see the approach of SilCore, nWoD, True20, Savage Worlds, GURPS etc as distinct from D&D's 3 core book approach.

As an aside, if we adopted this definition, then D&D would actually require 4 core books to be complete, as it would need a setting book as well.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583332No, if you applied my criteria, a game that has a stated limit of 20 levels, advertised as such before releasing the first product, obviously expects players to buy several products to play the whole game.

Expectations of what is to be purchased doesn't impact on the underlying playability of the product. This again goes to the tension between the publisher wanting to sell books by making them seem necessary but also providing a complete game in one product.

In any case, if the OP considers BECMI to be a game with multiple "core" books, then I agree that Dragon Age is of similar nature. I just don't think this is the kind of split the OP was getting at.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583332So, exactly the same as D&D.

I am not aware of any distributor that split them up, but if Diamond did so with BWHQ's consent then I agree with you.

As above, would you argue that Dragon Age requires multiple core products solely on the basis it has two books in the box set?

Quote from: TristramEvans;583332Actually it highlights the exact opposite. What you're showing is that you're applying completely different standards to D&D and the rest of these products.

You "can" play D&D with just the PG. If you're willing to make up the rest of the game yourself. That's true of all of these games, except Burning Wheel. The "full game rules" however, are not included in the PG, just as they aren't included in any 1 of the books mentioned above.

FWIW I am not isolating D&D from the underlying urge for publishers create RPGs that make the customer feel a need to purchase more books. There are many RPGs that do this. However, I do think D&D's particular approach, which is what I think the OP is getting at, is not that common.

As said, what constitutes a single "core" product is a more difficult task than I think the OP contemplated. Does the OP want to include the kinds of examples you are raising here? Well, that is over to the OP. If so, great.

I've considered publishing an RPG with Magic: the Gathering's attitudes towards core, editions, and organized play.

Firstly that would mean that any and all products would be playable fresh out of the box but the content would vary (different classes, different tiny settings with adventures, different monsters, etc.). No distinction between the introductory product and the expansion material.

Secondly it would mean a new "edition" (probably more properly called an "expansion") would change everything in terms of content, but keep loose backwards compatibility.

Lastly, organized play could some standard of balance by having the equivalent of "formats." This would be more or less built into the differences in setting between expansions anyway. As with magic, casual play and tournament play need not use the same rules/rulings in all  cases.

Quote from: Lynn;583101Did it stop anyone other than me from buying it?

There were some who didn't like the fact that Hero's "core" rules went from one book to two, and decided not to buy them, opting to continue playing 5th edition instead. There were others who declined because of rules changes. I'm not sure which lost them more players.

The trend now is to sell Beginner Editions of RPGs.  Ugh!  Well, TSR did start this ages ago.  But come on!  Star Wars is copying Pathfinder with pretty maps products.

Quote from: GrimGent;583335The mortal line, starting with The World of Darkness, is the core game, though. All the others are essentially expansion sets and more detailed campaign settings.

I think it is possible to run/play a game with just the World of Darkness book and various expansions like Second Sight. Hunter the Vigil though offers mortals and augmented mortals on top of The World of Darkness - sort of an imperfect fit because thematically it could have fit as an extension to The World of Darkness.

nWOD is the entire generation, but just because a book has nWOD on it doesn't mean its intended for use only with The World of Darkness.

I found it very irritating to have picked up Slasher, and found that much of it really cannot be used without Hunter the Vigil (one of the hardest of the nWOD original books to find). I guess I should have just relied on how they color code their books.

Quote from: Lynn;583353I think it is possible to run/play a game with just the World of Darkness book and various expansions like Second Sight.

Its possible to run/play a mortals horror game with just the WoD rulebook. I have done it.

Quote from: Lynn;583353I found it very irritating to have picked up Slasher, and found that much of it really cannot be used without Hunter the Vigil (one of the hardest of the nWOD original books to find). I guess I should have just relied on how they color code their books.

WW did that on a number of books and it sucked every time - Skin Changers, Changing Breeds, Book of the Dead etc

Star Wars 1E:

Quote from: TristramEvans;583098Not the 1st edition. 2 books. Unless you don't actually want to play Star Wars, but a generic space game.

I hate to disagree, but 1E only required 1 book. The sourcebook was just that, a sourcebook. The rules were all you needed. I know, I have a copy right next to me.

IRWS

I think argument for Star Wars WEG1e (or at least as I have seen it) is that there isn't much examples of things in the book. You get four ships IIRC and a handful of antagonists.

I have seen the same arguments made of WFRP2e. However, these are both made on a percpetion of what a person needs to run a game. It is the kind of definition that can't be determined objectively and, as such, presents difficulties if you lump it in with the likes of D&D's 3 core book approach.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583338Nope.

You can't seriously be claiming that, say, any campaign of exorcising ghosts or investigating conspiracies, using only the basic game, isn't complete without also adding in Vampire: The Requiem, Werewolf: The Forsaken, Mage: The Awakening, etc.? There's a reason why that sort of thing is called "crossover", especially given White Wolf's toolkit approach. The core book for VtR is only core material for a VtR campaign, not every nWoD game ever.

Quote from: Lynn;583353nWOD is the entire generation, but just because a book has nWOD on it doesn't mean its intended for use only with The World of Darkness.

Generally, each nWoD supplement expects familiarity with the main book of its respective line as well as the core rules. So for example, one supplement for Changeling: The Lost doesn't require reading another, let alone Vampire: The Requiem. There are some books which are meant for use with practically any line, though.

Quote from: Skywalker;583359Its possible to run/play a mortals horror game with just the WoD rulebook. I have done it.

I played a 1 year oWoD campaign with the free quick start rules & the character sheet from the WW site, the Holy Orders Internet rule supplement (free), a set of fan based discipline and Paths rules and some Jyhad cards.

Subsequently I bought Mage, some clan books and a Sabbat book but aside from Mage, which soes have some complex ideas about use of magic, I never really used the others apart from mining for ideas.

If a system is clear and simple and uses a universal mechanic then most of the rest of the book is setting and GM guidance.

Take a typical d20 rule book. Core mechanic roll a d20 add modifiers to hit a target number. There are classes and levels. HPs grow over time (maybe with limits) and weapons do HP damage.

That is basically it you don't need any more rules. You can drop that format into a Wild west game, a horror game , whatever. Its why there was a huge boom in d20 games.
Same is true of most systems.

The stuff that makes systems unique is the IP stuff that sells books. So D&D has 3 main things that add rules
i) More classes with mechanical variation
ii) More monsters
iii) More class abilities -  feats, spells, kits etc

Monsters are easy to homebrew but the other two aren't because balance and compatibility come into play.
I am a bit fan of toolkits to show how the designers create these things to allow DMs to create their own but I don't need to make money selling games so ...

Individually the D&D core books are £20, half the price of most other corebooks.

Quote from: GrimGent;583416You can't seriously be claiming that, say, any campaign of exorcising ghosts or investigating conspiracies, using only the basic game, isn't complete without also adding in Vampire: The Requiem, Werewolf: The Forsaken, Mage: The Awakening, etc.? There's a reason why that sort of thing is called "crossover", especially given White Wolf's toolkit approach. The core book for VtR is only core material for a VtR campaign, not every nWoD game ever.

Hey, the man said "Nope". I think that settles it.