So,

I took a look at MSPE again, great system, lots going on with it.

The pistol damage looks fine, plenty lethal but a lucky man could take a few shots (and an unlucky one go down in one).

But the rifles and assault rifles, ay...

Damage comes straight off Con.  The average character, including PCs, has a Con of 10-11.  Once you hit Con 0 then unless you get medical attention you die.

So far so good.

A Browning 9MM does 3d6 damage,  now I'm no gun bunny but that sounds fine to me.  A .357 magnum does 4d6+1, if you're lucky you could just take 5 points but on average most people are going to be dying if they get shot and don't get urgent medical attention.

So far, still so good.

A .30-06 does 7d6 damage, an AK-47 does 6d6+2 and that's assuming no autofire, the M16 does a relatively meagre 4d6 but the Browning FAL AR does a meaty 9d6+1, which means that even on a minimum roll the average person has no chance of surviving.

And well, that seems excessive, people do actually get shot by AK-47 and FALs and live, hell even children sometimes.  Anyone else found the gun damage a bit puissant?  Anyone ever tried to adjust it?

All comments welcome.

I generally like the damage where it is. I trust minimal damage rolls to be those unusual situations where people take bullets and survive.

However--for lightening damage to suit the sory you want to tell, you could knock a few damage dice off the guns you think are overloaded, without really impacting any other system. Or--what I've doon in the past is call for a save on Constitution or Luck to remain concious a little longer than the rules allow, if the target has a final task to complete, or if medical assistance is imminent. You could institute some roll based on Con to reduce damage, if you simply wanted PCs to be able to take more shots.

Lethality of gunfire is overrated.

Anything save a shot to the heart or certain parts of the brain will leave you basically intact.

Quote from: SettembriniLethality of gunfire is overrated.

Anything save a shot to the heart or certain parts of the brain will leave you basically intact.

Agreed, but what's needed are rules for the panic/fear effect being shot will cause.

That said, yes, the rules for rifles and such does seem excessive.  The leap from the 3-4d6 range up to the 7-9d6 range is a bit much, when the real improvement should be in range and penetration.

!i!

Quote from: BalbinusSo,

I took a look at MSPE again, great system, lots going on with it.

The pistol damage looks fine, plenty lethal but a lucky man could take a few shots (and an unlucky one go down in one).

But the rifles and assault rifles, ay...

Damage comes straight off Con.  The average character, including PCs, has a Con of 10-11.  Once you hit Con 0 then unless you get medical attention you die.

So far so good.

A Browning 9MM does 3d6 damage,  now I'm no gun bunny but that sounds fine to me.  A .357 magnum does 4d6+1, if you're lucky you could just take 5 points but on average most people are going to be dying if they get shot and don't get urgent medical attention.

So far, still so good.

A .30-06 does 7d6 damage, an AK-47 does 6d6+2 and that's assuming no autofire, the M16 does a relatively meagre 4d6 but the Browning FAL AR does a meaty 9d6+1, which means that even on a minimum roll the average person has no chance of surviving.

And well, that seems excessive, people do actually get shot by AK-47 and FALs and live, hell even children sometimes.  Anyone else found the gun damage a bit puissant?  Anyone ever tried to adjust it?

All comments welcome.

MSPE Gun damage is based on bullet weight and muzzle velocity, but the equation is biased in favour of weight over speed so high velocity small caliber rifle rounds can do less damage than pistols.
Wait until you see that stats for a .50cal M2 machine gun. Something like 48d6 IIRC

I remember an early effort of mine to substitute D12 for 2d6 and D20 for 4d6 to reduce the absoulte minimum damage, but it never got to playtesting stage.
If you rework the damage equation you might get a more realistic scaling of bullet damage, but working with in the framework of MSPE/T&Ts D6 based mechanic limits you to classing weapons into Light/Medium/Heavy damage groups or giving ridiculous, unsurvivable damage ratings to heavy weapons.

Buddy of mine was assaulted by a kid with a pocket pistol--.22 or .25. Something itty bitty. He was a very large, dense dude, and he was determined not to lose his wallet, so he made up his mind to "lean into" the shots and take the pistol. Which he did. Now--I know this kind of thing happens. The town I live in is heavily military, so I've met no shortage of gunshot recipients. I grew up in the south, so I and any number of friends have had hunting accidents. So--I know that injuries from knives and guns are survivable.

Given that, I still prefer that gun damage in rpgs scale to the severe side. Partly because you seldom roll maxed out dice, and also because I like for PCs to have to plan for violence a little. Where will cover be? Who's going to help if I'm hit? Even an itty bitty round can jam in a joint or cause some serious bleeding. If I'm playing anything remotely realistic, I like for gunplay (however unavoidable) to be employed reluctantly.

If I'm not going for realism, I like using damage scales and mook rules and things like Hong Kong Action Theater! It's different challenges. I like how MSPE feels pretty realistic with simple rules and little GM homework.


Anyhoo--keeping that simplicity in mind--If you want something like that in MSPE, you could leave everything as is for the mutants and outlaw bikers. As we know from the movie Streets of Fire, motorcycles explode when hit by carbine rounds, so that will work with gun vs. vehicle combats. For increased PC survivability/heroism, have them roll on their CON. You could do "every point over is a point you can take off your damage." Or "whatever SR level you make up to is the number of dice you can roll to reduce damage." I like the second, because it seems more exciting. Obviously, you could make the same roll on Luck, or whatever you like. Either way, keep it to one roll, or just lower the damage on the rifles. That piece isn't interlocked with any other piece that would cause any problems.

Quote from: stu2000Given that, I still prefer that gun damage in rpgs scale to the severe side. Partly because you seldom roll maxed out dice...

The real issue at hand, though, is that the MSPE and T&T system uses increasingly large pools of d6s to represent greater damage potential.  The fallout of this is that the minimum damage increases unrealistically.  I recall this happening when my friends and I were playing Tunnels & Trolls a lot -- the joke we had amongst ourselves was that, after a certain point on the experience scale, you couldn't use harsh language for fear of killing someone.  Ultimately, it was simply a concession we made to play with an otherwise romping-good fun game.

!i!

Quote from: BalbinusSo,

I took a look at MSPE again, great system, lots going on with it.

The pistol damage looks fine, plenty lethal but a lucky man could take a few shots (and an unlucky one go down in one).

But the rifles and assault rifles, ay...

Damage comes straight off Con.  The average character, including PCs, has a Con of 10-11.  Once you hit Con 0 then unless you get medical attention you die.

So far so good.

A Browning 9MM does 3d6 damage,  now I'm no gun bunny but that sounds fine to me.  A .357 magnum does 4d6+1, if you're lucky you could just take 5 points but on average most people are going to be dying if they get shot and don't get urgent medical attention.

So far, still so good.

A .30-06 does 7d6 damage, an AK-47 does 6d6+2 and that's assuming no autofire, the M16 does a relatively meagre 4d6 but the Browning FAL AR does a meaty 9d6+1, which means that even on a minimum roll the average person has no chance of surviving.

And well, that seems excessive, people do actually get shot by AK-47 and FALs and live, hell even children sometimes.  Anyone else found the gun damage a bit puissant?  Anyone ever tried to adjust it?

All comments welcome.

If nothing else high damage/lethality keeps people from metagameing and just wading out in to fire. In the real world you'll seek cover. (With exceptions as noted by stu2000)
But if your going for a more cinematic effect lessening damage would be good.
As for the damages you listed. From my personal experience. A .30-06 and the FN FAL chambered for 7.62x51mm should do the same damage. Velocity, penetration, and energy are close enough. To justify idenical damage dice. I would keep the AK (chambered for 7.62x39mm) where its at. As it fires a larger bullet (as compared to the M-16 chamberde for 5.56x45mm) which has better penetrative abilities and damage potential. I also like the 5.56 being significatly lower. But then again I've never been very impressed with 5.56 round. Course I'm a big bore kind of guy. I think it was a mistake moving from a battle rifle (like an M-14, G3, and etc) to an assault rifle. (like the M-16, L85A1, and etc). Sorry I'm starting to ramble now.

Balbinus, help me out with something that I think will have a bearing on the discussion.  I don't have the MSPE rules (yet -- I just ordered a copy :deflated: ), but I do own T&T, which I understand works in the same manner for the most part.

In T&T combat is resolved by comparing the total hits scored by each side, subtracting the lower total from the higher, and applying the remainder to the side that scored the lower total.  Thus, even though someone may come at you wielding unholy death with a minimum roll of 14, you stand a very good chance of mitigating this result by means of whatever you roll.  How does this compare with MSPE?  Is there a similar means of mitigating gunfire?  I mean, I can actually see my way through to accepting that a totally undefended gunshot (no seeking cover, no volleys of suppressive fire, etc.) from a large bore longarm will kill an average character outright.  However, if my taking cover and firing off a couple of rounds that force my opponent to flinch or seek cover as well will have an affect on the damage his bullets can deal, then maybe the ratings aren't too crazy.

!i!

MSPE gun combat is resolved the same as T&T ranged combat. You roll an SR against a difficulty. If you hit, the person takes damage. No way to mitigate it unless you have armor.

To hit someone in MSPE with a gun, seemed difficult. You need to cross index your movement, your target's movement and then distance. The SRs just seemed really high. Or did I read the tables incorrectly?

Thanks!
Eric

Enelson is correct on the gun combat rules.

And guys, I'm not aiming at cinematic, I'm aiming for realism.  And realistically getting shot by an AK-47 may well leave you dying but it can also be survived.  The problem isn't that the guns are realistically lethal and I want a more cinematic game, the problem is that I want a realistic game and the longarms are ludicrously deadly even on a minimum damage roll.

Ian's got the point, I've no issue with the average shot killing someone, my issue is with the minimum possible damage still killing people because life really isn't like that.

Hmm...a six-sided d5?  Rolled results are 0-1-2-3-4-5.  Minimum rolled damage can be as low as zero.

!i!

Am I the only person here who hasn't got a damn clue what the hell game you guys are talking about? MSPE? :confused:

Mercenaries Spies and Private Eyes

Quote from: Elliot WilenMercenaries Spies and Private Eyes

Ah. I want to say I've never heard of it, but I'm certain that isn't entirely accurate.  The name has that distinctive ring of familiarity.

Anyway, i return you all to your regularly scheduled conversation RE: this 'MSPE'...




In other words, carry on