Quote from: Windjammer;508208So, when combat kicks off, the game suddenly becomes very relaxing for me as a DM. And I love it for that.

I will say that this is my experience from the few times I DM'd 4th Edition. Once the work of actually setting up the encounter is done, everyone becomes a player, even the DM. Not a bad thing, IMO, but it seems to help reinforce the "D&D as boardgame" aspects a bit.

Quote from: Windjammer;508208Ludicrous to take this post as occasion for a serious reply, but off we go.

What's your favourite edition of D&D, and why?

Quote from: Werekoala;508211I will say that this is my experience from the few times I DM'd 4th Edition. Once the work of actually setting up the encounter is done, everyone becomes a player, even the DM. Not a bad thing, IMO, but it seems to help reinforce the "D&D as boardgame" aspects a bit.

Funny, because I had the very same feel GMing pretty much every system - I just try to fight with my NPCs as imaginative, as players are trying to fight with their PCs.

Quote from: Rincewind1;508213Funny, because I had the very same feel GMing pretty much every system - I just try to fight with my NPCs as imaginative, as players are trying to fight with their PCs.

Yes, why indeed should it be more taxing on a human mind to concurrently control a cast of a thousand PCs than a single one of them? Plainly this was not an issue that ever needed resolving.

Quote from: 1989;508212What's your favourite edition of D&D, and why?

3.5. But ever since 2008 I've found myself playing (and DM'ing) it less and less in favour of 4E, for all the reasons outlined above. Let me be clear - I don't think 4E can hold a candle to 3.5 in its glorious splendour. But then all the factors related above kick in, and suddenly my de facto preference swings the other way. (And before you ask - 2E was my first foray into D&D, but that was after I'd been playing a BECMI hack for years.)

Quote from: Rincewind1;508213Funny, because I had the very same feel GMing pretty much every system - I just try to fight with my NPCs as imaginative, as players are trying to fight with their PCs.

True, but since I never used mini's with any other version of D&D, after setting up the dungeon tiles and placing the figures, it FELT more like I was playing a game, if you catch my meaning.

Quote from: Windjammer;508217Yes, why indeed should it be more taxing on a human mind to concurrently control a cast of a thousand PCs than a single one of them? Plainly this was not an issue that ever needed resolving.

For me, it wasn't - and I play quite a lot of war/board games too. But when I play an RPG, I want RPG, not a wargame. When I'm GMing, my NPCs aren't fighting interesting, because they are using Attack #17, but because I devise interesting tactics/gimmicks for them - for example, if there's a mutant with tentacles, he jumps up and uses the tentacles to stick to the ceiling, then next round - falls on a hero. I love devising this shit for my encounters. Or the skeleton the party faces? He delivers a slash to the forehead, causing blood to fall over PC's eyes - -20 to attack rolls.

After a while, PCs also picked up an idea that imaginative and descriptive hits are better then just "I stick him with the sword." And that was done in Warhammer, so you had some skills (such as Strong Attack) to handle the invention for you.

Quote from: Werekoala;508218True, but since I never used mini's with any other version of D&D, after setting up the dungeon tiles and placing the figures, it FELT more like I was playing a game, if you catch my meaning.

I use minis a lot, Werekoala - they help me. Last Saturday, the PCs split into 3 parties, chasing 3 different groups of kobolds. But I mostly use minis (or well, paper cut - outs) as references - I don't use movement mechanics, for example. Just my arbitrary opinion if "you are in charge distance", or not.

Quote from: Werekoala;508218True, but since I never used mini's with any other version of D&D, after setting up the dungeon tiles and placing the figures, it FELT more like I was playing a game, if you catch my meaning.

Really? We commonly used minis with AD&D, and battlemats for Rules Cyclopedia. AD&D was built for minis, that's why all the ranges are in inches.

D&D was literally designed as a miniatures wargame, as add-on rules for Chainmail, a miniatures wargame.

3e didn't suddenly and randomly change the very core experience of D&D by adding (some) rules which are best applied with miniatures in play. D&D was always a miniatures-centric game.

People didn't always play it that way. We didn't always pull out the miniatures. But that's part of the game, and has been since the beginning of the hobby.

I get that, but as I've stated elsewhere, until 4e came out I played D&D since 1979 - without miniatures. Maps, certainly, but no minis.

YMMV, etc. etc.

Quote from: Windjammer;508208

This reminds me of the character sheets in the most recent Gamma World game. I think the combo of a simple sheet with cards is a winner.  Sadly, i think there is so much hate and suspicion in regards to cards that it is an innovation that will never be all that popular.

Quote from: Werekoala;508226I get that, but as I've stated elsewhere, until 4e came out I played D&D since 1979 - without miniatures. Maps, certainly, but no minis.

That's cool. I'm not trying to jump down your throat or anything. I apologize if it seemed that way.

I was just responding to the general theme of "3e introduced minis to a game where they had never been before!" coming from some of the posters. (Not you, admittedly.) I just wanted to set the record straight.

Again, I apologize if it seemed like I was criticizing you unfairly.

EDIT: Though, sometimes we didn't use miniatures, just dice. Dice on a table, with cans and folded/crumpled pieces of paper for terrain.

Folks, that's gaming.

Prior to the release of 4e using minis was cool one way or the other, since then, however, we've all had to sign anti-mini purity oaths.

Quote from: Aos;508232Prior to the release of 4e using minis was cool one way or the other, since then, however, we've all had to sign anti-mini purity oaths.

I must've missed the memo then.

Quote from: Aos;508229This reminds me of the character sheets in the most recent Gamma World game. I think the combo of a simple sheet with cards is a winner.  Sadly, i think there is so much hate and suspicion in regards to cards that it is an innovation that will never be all that popular.

It's a damn pity, because RPG's can learn a lot from other types of games when it comes to accessibility. Out of any given book, a player probably only needs to know a couple of pages worth of text in play, and it's worth putting that essential information right in front of them to speed up play.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;508231EDIT: Though, sometimes we didn't use miniatures, just dice. Dice on a table, with cans and folded/crumpled pieces of paper for terrain.

Folks, that's gaming.

Whenever I know I'll need minis for something, I make little cardboard box-shaped vehicles, or standup tri-fold tokens (Leading to a statement from one of my regular players, after we'd finished character gen and I got the felt pens out, "We have now entered the arts and crafts portion of the evening"). Stickmen are great, easy to draw, and plenty enough for a game; a stack of plain index cards, set of pens and some double-sided sticky tape comes to well under a tenner, and will last you ages. Maybe not as visually impressive, but given the price difference, I'm fine with that.

Quote from: Ladybird;508234It's a damn pity, because RPG's can learn a lot from other types of games when it comes to accessibility. Out of any given book, a player probably only needs to know a couple of pages worth of text in play, and it's worth putting that essential information right in front of them to speed up play.

And I'd rather say it's damn good thing. When I'm RPing, all I want to see at table are a bunch of dice, paper sheets, character sheets, pencils & pens, and probably some miniatures & maps. And a laptop from which GM will be playing the music/show an occasional picture.

Everything else is a needless fiddly bit, that I want in my board games, but not in my RPGs. That's why I disliked Warhammer 3e so much - I could tolerate the dice system, which itself is good (just...not for the Warhammer, as it's much more "epic"), but the bajillion of tokens, cards and spines?

Too damn much.

The paper cut - out minis were nice though.

Quote from: Rincewind1;508235And I'd rather say it's damn good thing. When I'm RPing, all I want to see at table are a bunch of dice, paper sheets, character sheets, pencils & pens, and probably some miniatures & maps. And a laptop from which GM will be playing the music/show an occasional picture.

Everything else is a needless fiddly bit, that I want in my board games, but not in my RPGs. That's why I disliked Warhammer 3e so much - I could tolerate the dice system, which itself is good (just...not for the Warhammer, as it's much more "epic"), but the bajillion of tokens, cards and spines?

WFRP1 pretty much already puts all of a player's essential information right in front of them, though - character sheets are incredibly readable (Most d100 games are, BRP is even better just because of those % signs). We've got four-page sheets with the last two being an explanation of what our skills do, and checkboxes (Along with a text box for skills on the front page); there's literally nothing else I need to know in order to play (It's a bit different for our wizzie, but even then, five minutes with Paint Shop Pro and the PDF will print him a sheet of all his spells, and he's good to go).

The big problems come for characters/games with lists of Talents, Feats, Spells, intricate mechanics, Disciplines, what-have-you that don't fit easily on a character sheet. You need some sort of quick-reference for that, just to stop play slowing down while things are looked up; I've got quick sheets for most types of action in Shadowrun 3 and 4 lying around, for example.

I agree with you on WFRP3 being a bit too much, though - I really liked playing it, but it's just too much for where we play, we don't have the space.