Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is out and I've read over the first two parts. The second of these is on elves. I don't really like much of what I'm reading. Too much of it seems like it is trying to make elves 1000x more special than any other race. We find out that Gruumsh penetrated Corellon and that all elves come from what dripped out of Corellon after that. The much-advertised multi/trans/non-sexual bit about the "primal" elves is here, and so too is an emo vibe that all elves (except Drow) are desperately seeking forgiveness from Corellon. Did I mention that the elves all go in for reincarnation with a stint of solitary confinement in their afterlife? I'm just not really seeing anything in the elf section that I want to add to my game. What's really funny is that the in-world voices try to patch together the takes on elves from all of the existing D&D worlds and then...come up with this stuff which doesn't really fit with any of them?
OTOH, the Blood War section was OK. Nothing really too original, but also not bad. I'd rather have them keep with the old than drop some "hawt newness" on familiar aspects of D&D.
#notallelves
To be serious for a moment, I can see me really leaning into the body-horror aspect of the new elven evolution. As much as I don't like it, it'll weaponise up nicely to deploy on my players.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1039931We find out that Gruumsh penetrated Corellon and that all elves come from what dripped out of Corellon after that. e
Um...what words
exactly do they use? The idea of Gruumsh wounding Corellon and elves being born from his blood goes back to 1E (I don't own D&DG, but Roger Moore's article on "The elven point of view", as reprinted in
Best of Dragon III, makes reference to it).
QuoteDid I mention that the elves all go in for reincarnation with a stint of solitary confinement in their afterlife?
Hmm...sounds like Tolkien, although the Professor's probably too conservative, monarchist/minarchist, gender-essentialist, and just plain Catholic for the WotC crowd these days :) Then again, it could also be part of pushing the elves in a more fey, less incarnate direction.
QuoteI'm just not really seeing anything in the elf section that I want to add to my game. What's really funny is that the in-world voices try to patch together the takes on elves from all of the existing D&D worlds and then...come up with this stuff which doesn't really fit with any of them?
It's the
Complete Book of Elves all over again! :)
Penetrated Corellon? Gruumsh stabbed Corellon in battle and Elves were born from Corellon's Blood. If you're suggesting it's metaphorical, that would mean the Elves are born of Rape and I doubt we're getting that from WotC.
You should watch Jeremy Crawford's video about the Drow.
"and so, some of them, they begin to respond to the call of the Light within themselves, and that often for me is one of the most interesting stories you can tell with the Drow. The story of a person who is raised up in a totally corrupt culture, that proudly tramples the downtrodden, that enslaves other peoples - yet you are a person who stands up against it, who says "no more"." :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;1039940Penetrated Corellon? Gruumsh stabbed Corellon in battle and Elves were born from Corellon's Blood. If you're suggesting it's metaphorical, that would mean the Elves are born of Rape and I doubt we're getting that from WotC.
You should watch Jeremy Crawford's video about the Drow.
"and so, some of them, they begin to respond to the call of the Light within themselves, and that often for me is one of the most interesting stories you can tell with the Drow. The story of a person who is raised up in a totally corrupt culture, that proudly tramples the downtrodden, that enslaves other peoples - yet you are a person who stands up against it, who says "no more"." :D
Given how Drow culture is usually shown, they would say "no more"
very briefly.
Corellon was wounded by Gruumsh and made to bleed, with the blood shed from this becoming the primal elves. Note that Corellon "took pleasure from every encounter with the other divine beings of the multiverse" and as he was able to be anything from a breeze to a beam of light to a flame, he must have chosen to take a form that could bleed when he let Gruumsh get so close. The book also says that there are many ways the story was told, so I choose the most fucked up way since I find some amusement in Gruumsh being the 'baby-daddy' of the elves.:p
The elf chapter also takes a very convoluted way of explaining the Fey Ancestry trait since (most) elf lines are not from the Feywild but are instead from Arvandor which is a lot like the Feywild so some of them like the Feywild, but hey the Feywild actually causes them to hit their menopause early so maybe do go there, and there's always Evermeet so yeah...
Like I said, convoluted.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1039940Penetrated Corellon? Gruumsh stabbed Corellon in battle and Elves were born from Corellon's Blood. If you're suggesting it's metaphorical, that would mean the Elves are born of Rape and I doubt we're getting that from WotC.
You should watch Jeremy Crawford's video about the Drow.
"and so, some of them, they begin to respond to the call of the Light within themselves, and that often for me is one of the most interesting stories you can tell with the Drow. The story of a person who is raised up in a totally corrupt culture, that proudly tramples the downtrodden, that enslaves other peoples - yet you are a person who stands up against it, who says "no more"." :D
Now I'm envisioning Drow in hoodies swinging bike locks.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1039955Now I'm envisioning Drow in hoodies swinging bike locks.
Eberron did it.
Didn't they?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1039955Now I'm envisioning Drow in hoodies swinging bike locks.
Elf-tifa?
I really want to like this book but Jesus Fucking Christ it is so overwritten. The whole "Freelancers writing for a penny a word desperately trying to fill enough pages to justify a hardcover" style of mainstream RPG writing needs to end.
It easily could have been half the length.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1039955Now I'm envisioning Drow in hoodies swinging bike locks.
Quote from: Thornhammer;1039976Elf-tifa?
No, that would be the genderfluid elves going after the intolerant [strike]Nazi[/strike] Drow.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1039955Now I'm envisioning Drow in hoodies swinging bike locks.
Which led me to envisioning them snapping their fingers in rhythm and starting to dance while the leader sings. I expect the Drow would love Grease.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1039979I really want to like this book but Jesus Fucking Christ it is so overwritten. The whole "Freelancers writing for a penny a word desperately trying to fill enough pages to justify a hardcover" style of mainstream RPG writing needs to end.
It easily could have been half the length.
The repetition in the Halfling and Gnome chapter was pretty bad.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1039979I really want to like this book but Jesus Fucking Christ it is so overwritten. The whole "Freelancers writing for a penny a word desperately trying to fill enough pages to justify a hardcover" style of mainstream RPG writing needs to end.
It easily could have been half the length.
Amen! I can't stand the overwritten word bloat. It has become near ubiquitous in the industry. It's not only a waste of my time and shelf space, it crushes creativity. The brilliance of a module like X1, B2, or settings like the original Greyhawk or Wilderlands was that it gave you just enough to fire the imagination without filling it. I play RPGs to create my own worlds, characters and stories. Modern RPG products work too hard to fill in the blanks rather than provide tools or seeds for creativity.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1039939Um...what words exactly do they use? The idea of Gruumsh wounding Corellon and elves being born from his blood goes back to 1E (I don't own D&DG, but Roger Moore's article on "The elven point of view", as reprinted in Best of Dragon III, makes reference to it).
Was it there, or in
Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.
Elves--either cool and mysterious or annoying and faux (depending on how sick of them you are)-interesting since [strike]2018[/strike] [strike]2000[/strike] [strike]1989[/strike] [strike]1977[/strike] [strike]1974[/strike] [strike]1937[/strike] forever.
Quote from: Madprofessor;1040080Amen! I can't stand the overwritten word bloat. It has become near ubiquitous in the industry. It's not only a waste of my time and shelf space, it crushes creativity. The brilliance of a module like X1, B2, or settings like the original Greyhawk or Wilderlands was that it gave you just enough to fire the imagination without filling it. I play RPGs to create my own worlds, characters and stories. Modern RPG products work too hard to fill in the blanks rather than provide tools or seeds for creativity.
Regardless, if I pick up someone else's ideas on this stuff, I'd best be prepared for it not to meet my own expectations.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040084Was it there, or in Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.
One of my players has Complete Book of Elves and I went through it and did not see any mention of elves being gender fluid at all.
Quote from: David Johansen;1040056Which led me to envisioning them snapping their fingers in rhythm and starting to dance while the leader sings. I expect the Drow would love Grease.
Are you thinking of
West Side Story?
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040084Was it there, or in Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.
Corellon's "male/female/neither/both" bit is mentioned in the Moore article.
Quote from: jeff37923;1040111Are you thinking of West Side Story?
Probably is. Both are good though.
Reason I made the comment I did in the first place was a particular similarity between Crawford's take on "Good" Drow and how certain violent activist groups.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040084Was it there, or in Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.
It's in the gods of the Demi-Human section in the original Unearthed Arcana, which in turn were originally in Dragon.
But it goes back to the Greeks, I guess. Hermaphrodite. I believe in AD&D cosmology, they share the same plne.
QuoteLike Corellon Larethian, Labelas Enoreth variously appears as both male
or female (and sometimes both or neither
Quote from: KingCheops;1040071The repetition in the Halfling and Gnome chapter was pretty bad.
Yeah, and the repetition in the Halfling and Gnome chapter was pretty bad too.
This is the source of all the furor about "gender fluid elves". It is in a box that shows it to be flavor text, and it clearly says DM decides, player cannot.
"THE BLESSED OF CORELLON
Ever changing, mirthful, and beautiful, the primal elves could assume whatever sex they liked. When they bowed to Lolth's influence and chose to fix their physical forms, elves lost the ability to transform in this way. Yet occasionally elves are born who are so androgynous that they are proclaimed to be among the blessed of Corellon - living symbols of the god's love and of the primal elves' original fluid state of being. Many of Corellon's chief priests bear this blessing.
The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long rest -- a miracle celebrated by elves of all sorts except drow. (The DM decides whether an elf can manifest this miracle.) Dark elves find this ability to be terrifying and characterize it as a curse, for it could destabilize their entire society. If Corellon's blessing manifests in a drow, that elf usually flees to the surface world to seek shelter among those dedicated to Corellon"
Wow, so radical, so threatening to my very being, such an affront to pure, original vision of Gygax ...
Here is the 1980 Deities & Demigods words for Corellon:
"Corellon Larethian represents the highest ideals of elvenkind: "he" is skilled in all the arts and crafts, and is the patron of music, poetry, and magic. Corellon is alternately male or female or neither. The god is also mighty in battle, and is said to have personally banished such demons as Llolth from the sunlit Upperworld. Elven lore states that the race of elves sprang from the drops of blood Corellon shed in this epic battle."
Now, this was actually created by Jim Ward, but the book was written by him and Rob Kuntz who both played in Gygax's early Greyhawk campain and Kuntz even co-wrote the original supplement with Gygax, so I doubt the apple is far from the Gygax tree. Plus, Gygax wrote the foreword to the book.
So anyone complaining about how the 5e SJW developers are changing the game actually have it in reverse and they are not playing the game as intended.
The sex changing bit is only a very small part of what I dislike here. What I really don't like is that they try to take a dozen different elf stories from different worlds and combine them into one origin. I like it better when the elves (and other races) of the different D&D worlds are different from one another with unique bits by world. Here it all gets blended up and served as a pointy-eared smoothie.
Interesting that in the old story Lolth drew the blood from Corellon that would become the elves whereas in the new version she herself came from his blood drawn by Gruumsh (Lolth was one of the first primal elves that Corellon elevated to godhood).
Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1040132So anyone complaining about how the 5e SJW developers are changing the game actually have it in reverse and they are not playing the game as intended.
That must be why there has been so much self-congratulatory back slapping going on then.:rolleyes:
http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/03/14/dungeons-and-dragons-genderfluid-elves/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/03/26/mordenkainens-tome-of-foes-is-the-book-with-the-gender-fluid-elves-right/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/136405-D-D-Developers-Explain-Choices-on-Gender-Diversity-in-New-Edition
Comments like this for instance:
QuoteHow deluded must some neck-bearded grognards be to think that opening up this beloved fantasy game to more people is in any way a bad thing?
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/2018/03/17/genderfluid-elves-the-end-of-dungeons-dragons-or-just-another-troll-mad-about-something-that-shouldnt-be-controversial/
The primogenitor deity of elves being both male and female that is not unusual at all: if you look at pantheons in the real world, you will find a whole bunch of these: Greek mythology has Agdistis, Hermaphroditus and Aphroditus while the Egyptian pantheon had Hepi, the Nile God as well as the primogenitor god/godess Atum. Moreover, the Hindu religion has Ardhanarishvara, another deity connected with fertility and genesis.
There is nothing to suggest that the the witer's of the elven mythology were intending to grant elves this new ability.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040162That must be why there has been so much self-congratulatory back slapping going on then.:rolleyes:
Yes, yes, both sides (of any issue) can blame the other for starting it/not shutting up about it/celebrating their own rightness on said issue. In other news that never changes, more at 11.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1040138What I really don't like is that they try to take a dozen different elf stories from different worlds and combine them into one origin. I like it better when the elves (and other races) of the different D&D worlds are different from one another with unique bits by world. Here it all gets blended up and served as a pointy-eared smoothie.
Now that's worth complaining about. I'm not particularly pumped about any of the published worlds (and the one that I do like, Mystara/Known World, has a bunch of 'gods' no one but the most die-hard fans even remember the names of). The fact that Corellon (/Lolth/Gruumsh) exist in both GH and FR seems odd to me. Anyone know how that happened in the first place?
QuoteInteresting that in the old story Lolth drew the blood from Corellon that would become the elves whereas in the new version she herself came from his blood drawn by Gruumsh (Lolth was one of the first primal elves that Corellon elevated to godhood).
I assume that was done to make the elven pantheon smaller in the greater world-context. There's one big elven god and all the others (including their anti-partner) are subordinate gods. If you want Corellon involved in something bigger, more 'creation myth'-y, you bring in an outside (orcish) god.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040192Yes, yes, both sides (of any issue) can blame the other for starting it/not shutting up about it/celebrating their own rightness on said issue. In other news that never changes, more at 11.
That wasn't quite my point, though, was it? Context and all that, hmm?
Here. You deserve one of these.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2505[/ATTACH]
Cool, I guess.
It kind of smacks of the "Black Panther was the first ever black superhero movie!" bullshit. I'd also point out that Zeus and Loki were known to get their swerve on in non-human forms too. Mythology isn't LGBTQ it's Pan-Sexual! :eek:
Also the repetition in the Halflings and Gnomes chapter was particularly galling.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1040132So anyone complaining about how the 5e SJW developers are changing the game actually have it in reverse and they are not playing the game as intended.
And I suppose you believe the declaration (https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/entertainthis/2018/05/17/lando-calrissian-pansexual-solo-star-wars-reaction/620566002/) that Lando is pansexual is based on his character's lore and is not related at all to today's climate. :rolleyes:
I'm waiting for the litmus test for the antithesis of this idea to be trotted out...
So if WotC had some hypermasculine deity, bless his followers hypermasculine traits alongside another female deity that had hyper-feminine traits, would they do it?
Of course not (not that I would want or require it any more than I require this dumb virtue signal). But they wouldn't because:
1) SJW's don't believe in those distinctions.
2) Those that do, believe that masculinity is toxic
3) They don't actually know what it means to be masculine in the first place.
So I would only ask this simple question: In what way does it make the game better aside from virtue-signalling? Other than the purely cosmetic fluff-aspect of it that has cultural implications - what purpose does it serve *the game*?
Corellon is a greater god in D&D anyhow. He/She/It can *change* shape at will. It's never been a *thing* because all Greater Gods can do this since the 1e Deities and Demigods book. This is why this whole thing is a stupid conflation for the purposes of virtual signalling.
I care less about the Blessing than I do about this:
"Dark elves find this ability to be terrifying and characterize it as a curse, for it could destabilize their entire society."
So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ask WHY? Why in the *hell* would any Drow think of this as a Curse? Because if you look at the "blessing" as a virtue signal - then the implication by saying it's a "curse" insinuates that the Drow view gender as binary. The meta-implication that such views are culturally "evil".
But on its face WHY would it be a "curse". Drow society is traditionally an evil Matriarchal Theocracy (but not always) and being *female* is a huge benefit. It would be more of a chance to remain safe. There is nothing attached to the blessing as written that has any mechanical benefit other than being able to change your plumbing daily. For female drow it would be a huge advantage too. It's a cutthroat world among the Drow, being able to pass unnoticed like a servile male would be beneficial for the tactically minded.
No, I'm willing to bet this isn't what they were thinking at all.
Oddly enough, the part I find most ill-fitting is the way they shoehorned the Eladrin and Shadar-Kai into the elven mythology. It's like they just had to find a way to cram 4e ideas back into 5e and the worlds that were largely set before that time. I would have been fine if Eladrin were just a sect of elves that swore to serve archfey and Shadar-Kai were just some weird cult of Shadowfell-dwelling elves, but I would have preferred if they were non-elf races. Instead, we get the worst of both and they are full-on elven subraces. I know FR once had many subtypes of elves, but I don't really see a need for all of those to creep back into the game.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1040270Oddly enough, the part I find most ill-fitting is the way they shoehorned the Eladrin and Shadar-Kai into the elven mythology. It's like they just had to find a way to cram 4e ideas back into 5e and the worlds that were largely set before that time. I would have been fine if Eladrin were just a sect of elves that swore to serve archfey and Shadar-Kai were just some weird cult of Shadowfell-dwelling elves, but I would have preferred if they were non-elf races. Instead, we get the worst of both and they are full-on elven subraces. I know FR once had many subtypes of elves, but I don't really see a need for all of those to creep back into the game.
Shadar-Kai being elf/fey was definitely a 3e thing and 4e made them very separate from fey sources.
Quote from: KingCheops;1040233It kind of smacks of the "Black Panther was the first ever black superhero movie!" bullshit. I'd also point out that Zeus and Loki were known to get their swerve on in non-human forms too. Mythology isn't LGBTQ it's Pan-Sexual! :eek:
.
...And Loki gave birth to an eight legged horse.
I have no problem with metrosexual gender-queer elves because it kinda fits with most Pre-Tolkein portrayals of them and is amusing.
But this book was a lemon. Waaaaaaay too bloated and wordy. So much wasted paper. The Blood Wars and the Githyanki, the two most METAL things in D&D, both of which really deserved a Lamentations of the Flame Princess/Maze of the Blue Medusa-style punk-art treatment, just get very weak 2nd-edition-esque coverage. The only monster I was excited to see was the Derro. So many generic demons and devils that are just more powerful and/or weaker versions of existing critters. I blew fifty ducats for this? The only thing I really see myself using regularly in my game are the new PC races, and those are scattered throughout the book instead of being in one section. Lame.
The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long restWhat does this actually mean?
Does the elf's hair change? Or just their dicks, tits and vaginas?
Do their clothes still fit?
How does the rest of the universe react when they meet the elf between changes? Is that broken down by alignment?
The DM decides whether an elf can manifest this miracle.That's odd. Why not make it a feat and let the players' decide. Why put it on the DM?
If a player wants a blessing for their PC, this should be a player decision.
If a DM doesn't want an option inside their campaign, that's the DM's decision.
And most importantly...WHY is this "blessing" so wimpy? Corellon changes shape at will...and the god's rarest divine blessing ONLY switches your pant's junk?
Why not "Alter Self" once per day? That's a blessing worth a feat and fits Corellon's mythos FAR better.
Oh wait...that only adds a fun option to the game and doesn't virtue signal.
Quote from: tenbones;1040269So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ask WHY? Why in the *hell* would any Drow think of this as a Curse? Because if you look at the "blessing" as a virtue signal - then the implication by saying it's a "curse" insinuates that the Drow view gender as binary. The meta-implication that such views are culturally "evil".
More reasons to tell WotC to go fuck itself.
Quote from: tenbones;1040269But on its face WHY would it be a "curse". Drow society is traditionally an evil Matriarchal Theocracy (but not always) and being *female* is a huge benefit. It would be more of a chance to remain safe. There is nothing attached to the blessing as written that has any mechanical benefit other than being able to change your plumbing daily. For female drow it would be a huge advantage too. It's a cutthroat world among the Drow, being able to pass unnoticed like a servile male would be beneficial for the tactically minded.
Absolutely.
And long before this SJW bullshit, wouldn't Alter Self or Polymorph Self be used by the Drow to move through secretly through their societies?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1040304The DM decides whether an elf can manifest this miracle.
This, I believe, could potentially set up an in-game v.s. out-of-game conflict.
Let's say a player would like the DM to allow his elf PC have the ability to change from male to female once per day. And let's say that the DM until recently has been running a campaign in which this ability was unheard of (not unlikely considering how new this book is). The DM is concerned that since this ability is relatively rare, it could be used as a means of disguise. He rules that, no, this blessing would grant the PC an unfair advantage. The player, at this point, protests: now while in-game reasons are the DM's call, the player brings in out-of-game reasons of "inclusiveness".
The DM can say "but this is my perogative as the DM" but his/her credentials as DM are now not the focus of the debate: i.e. it is not whether the DM gets to choose, but why he/she has chosen not to. His/her gaming reasons (unfair free abilities) v.s "inclusiveness" and game balance v.s. "fun-for-everyone"is a no-brainer, right?
So the DM, not wishing to be known as a bigot IRL, capitulates and the player gets the free ability. Of course, players being players, this ability is quickly used as a means of disguise and the DM decides to counter it in-game. He/She rules that the miracle is now prettty common and that it is well known that elves change sex all the time and people are on the lookout for it. The game goes on but now elves are all gender-fluid whether or not the DM intended that at his/her campaigns's creation. "Well maybe that is a good thing" and "We have all learned something" is the consensus.
Later, a player decides to play an elf. He/She is not interested in the sex-changing ability because he/she has a Legolas/Tauriel concept in mind. The DM tells the player that recently the elves are now equipped with this power as standard, but the player is free to opt-out. The new player chooses to play an elf with a fixed gender but within the campaign this is now regarded with "why can't you?" questions. Out-of-game the player is asked the same but with the implication that he/she is rejecting the new "inclusiveness". Capitulating, the player asks the DM to have the miraclous ability and the DM says okay. However the player avoids changing because he/she originally did not envisage the Legolas/Tauriel type as being gender-fluid. Once asked a few times out-of-game why he/she didn't change sex regularly, the player retires the character to play a dwarf.
OTOH, having the ability to change sex as a Feat like any other would avoid this.
DMs would have game balance issues met and players not wishing to play gender-fluid elves can simply say, "cos I wanted Feat XYZ instead".
Simple, really. And yet not written that way.
I also find it disappointing that the elf section went into some detail on the drow of Eberron, but not on the two groups of "surface elves" (Aerenal and Valanar or something like that). I was not a big fan of Eberron, but if you're going to include the dark elves of the setting, why not also spend some words on covering the types of elves most PCs might play. I guess it might be because these guys are ancestor worshipers rather than followers of our-person-of-the-indefinite-plumbing and thus wouldn't quite fit the current narrative. On the other hand, with the Eberron drow, they more or less just dismissed the differences (god of scorpions, goddess of spiders... whatever) and avoided that whole 'slaves of the giants' bit.
Honestly I dont mind it being a blessing of some deity. Long as it makes sense in context and with prior data on the being in question. I could definitly see a fertility based deity granting this sort of quirk and not just to elves. In fact that was one of the possible gifts that could be gained from my own books fertility deity.
What does come across as oddball though is how some seem to think this is new or groundbreaking. How far back do those Girdles of Femininity/Masculinity go for example? Tomb of Horrors with its gender flipping trap goes all the way back to 78. And I believe it was Selune who transformed Elminster into a girl in one of the novels. Also the aforementioned transforming in Return of the Eight.
Mike the Mage, if they did it your way, then people could opt out of it without being called out on it. In their way of thinking, that is to be avoided at all costs. Whether those costs are artistic, mythical, player and GM ease of use, or even basic logic. The point is not to make it an option. The point is to make it mandatory in all "right thinking" groups. It's the logical outgrowth of people that feel (I refuse to dignify what they do with "think") that "tolerance" is a first-order virtue, and is manifested by telling people how to act.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1040356Mike the Mage, if they did it your way, then people could opt out of it without being called out on it.
Precisely. And it is not as if my proposal is very innovative. In fact such an ability is typical of a Feat. It is rather, the developers who have made an exception in this case and proposed the rather arbitary and atypical "well it's up to the GM" whether a PC at chargen receives an ability for free.
In any case, I think that if I were asked to run a D&D 5, I would either say "core 3 books only" or rule it as a Feat with the reason that it is written as a rare blessing and the rules ought to reflect that.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1040356In their way of thinking, that is to be avoided at all costs.
Certainly so far a similar proposal has been met with unexplained reluctance. While I can't say for sure whether what you say is true, I would assume it were I not given a very clear reason NOT to class this ability as a feat.
Alls I know is I flipped through it at the FLGS, saw a bunch of stuff about demons and thought "I've got 20 books like this by now", and put it back on the shelf.
I watched a few flick thoughs and I was very very underwhelmed but hey, there is always a new generation of gamers that have never seen this kind of fluff-on-splat before.
The Elves of Cults of Chaos and Lion & Dragon are way cooler.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1039942Given how Drow culture is usually shown, they would say "no more" very briefly.
"In Soviet Union, you have right to free speech. Once."
-Yakov Smirnoff
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040372I watched a few flick thoughs and I was very very underwhelmed but hey, there is always a new generation of gamers that have never seen this kind of fluff-on-splat before.
Pretty much my feelings. WOTC setting material has never inspired me.