QuoteIt really depends on what you're selling. For a setting sourcebook or core rules set, I'd agree. The thing is, a lot of small press products are supplements that expand on core rules (prestige classes, new spells, adventure scenarios, etc.). A lot of times these things are either too short or too easily printed out to necessitate buying a book. In the case of adventures (judging by our sales and feedback, anyway) it's a lot easier to print out the PDF than buy the book since you're only going to use it once or twice anyway.

Well, frankly, in my experience, the books you describe just don't tend to show up on the P2P networks.  Put blunty, nobody wants "101 Doorknobs for True20" enough to even bother to steal it.  You're talking about products whose percieved value is so low as to be meaningless.

You kind of have a point on adventures, a similar effect occurs with movies/TV:  Watch it once, and likely never watch it again.  It might be good, but if you're never gonna watch it or use it again, there's not really much reason to purchase.  It's at this point that lower prices become more important.  It's just a matter of pricing towards what the market will bear, and that's realyl a problem with expendable products regardless of piracy's influence.

I'd also quibble with the adventure thing just because I've read so damn many threads about people who've run Keep on the Borderlands a hundred times, as to think that maybe the problem of single-use adventures might simply be a matter of quality and design.

Quote from: J ArcaneI'd also quibble with the adventure thing just because I've read so damn many threads about people who've run Keep on the Borderlands a hundred times, as to think that maybe the problem of single-use adventures might simply be a matter of quality and design.

Hah!  Keep on the Borderlands is no quality design masterpiece!  People run it (usually) because it brings back memories of the good old days.  That's why I still run it from time to time, anyway.  I can't recall many modern (as in recently published) adventures that get the buzz the old D&D modules do, even though the quality and design levels have increased substantially.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnHah!  Keep on the Borderlands is no quality design masterpiece!  People run it (usually) because it brings back memories of the good old days.  That's why I still run it from time to time, anyway.  I can't recall many modern (as in recently published) adventures that get the buzz the old D&D modules do, even though the quality and design levels have increased substantially.  

Pete

I would suggest then, that you may be operating under the wrong analytical parameters.  

For one, a lot of those older modules were far more open, offering a greater number of possibilities, and thus, more replayability.

Quote from: J ArcaneI would suggest then, that you may be operating under the wrong analytical parameters.  

For one, a lot of those older modules were far more open, offering a greater number of possibilities, and thus, more replayability.

Well, that's possible.  I haven't looked at KotB in a long time, but what I remember is:
1. a functional castle keep with a lot of stats but no real NPC personalities (except for #3).    
2. a cave complex to end all cave complexes full of a dozen different hostile races all living pretty much side by side, hunting the same territory, etc.
3. an evil priest who lives at the castle but has a temple in the caves.  No motivations or anything, he's just evil to be evil.  

If someone published that module today no one would be looking at the great number of possibilities and replayability the game has to offer.  They would say it was entirely implausible and lacked any kind of depth, and they'd be right.  It was fun to play in it's day.  These days it still has value, but as a nostalgic dungeon crawl at best and an idea mine at worst.  Keep in mind, that was my first module ever, so I still love it.  I just don't think it fits in my games today without a ton of revisions, at which point it becomes something other than what it is.

Pete

EDIT:  Dammit.  Talk about off topic.  Sorry everyone.

QuoteI just don't think it fits in my games today without a ton of revisions, at which point it becomes something other than what it is.

Or, it is the act of customizing the details to suit the tastes of the group that makes it belong to them, instead of to some game designer guy.

It is further interesting to note that this trait, along with the general openness, is also responsible for some of the most successful video games out there, and some of the biggest and most respected developers in the business have been loudly trumpeting the virtues of openness and customizability.  Even in a medium that some percieve as more passive than TRPGs, being able to make your own fun is a valuable trait.

We could learn something from that, I think.

Quote from: J ArcaneWe could learn something from that, I think.

Learn something, maybe.  But could we sell something like that is the question?  I think you'd find a lot more "it's too generic" or "I could have done that myself" comments than "I love the openness" comments if you plopped down a map and a bunch of monster stat blocks like KotB essentially was.  J Arcane if you want to continue this discussion, I'm happy to split it into another thread.  As someone who enjoys writing adventures, I always like to hear what people want to see in published adventures.    

Pete

Quote from: pspahnBecause of intellectual property laws. Laws are different than morals and ethics. Piracy is illegal.

And so is homosexuality... in some jurisdictions. So again, if we cannot agree on the morality (and legality) of something so fundamental as the sexual practices of two consenting adults, why do people think that the morality of copyright is somehow so much clearer?
 

QuoteIf you are morally OK with doing something illegal, then that's something else.

I am.
 
I broke the law a few years ago when I didn't vote in a local council referendum on alcohol by-laws. Were my actions illegal? Yes. Immoral? I wouldn't think so. Do I think it is morally acceptable to murder someone? Of course not.
 
So surely we can agree that some laws are more important to uphold than others? If so, then it's just a question of deciding where copyright laws belong on the spectrum.
 
You favour one end of the spectrum. I favour the other.
 

QuoteI don't want to argue whether it's right or wrong. I'd rather do something more productive like hear from legitimate customers what they think a publisher can do to dissuade them from piracy.

Until you really understand the motivations for piracy, you won't find your answer. Your attitude is all wrong. It's like music studios that use copy protection to dissuade people copying CDs. It does nothing to stop piracy and in the end only inconveniences legitimate paying customers. What you need to do is understand why people pirate products and then build your business model around it.  This is pretty hard to do when you take the blanket attitude that all piracy is wrong.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkYour attitude is all wrong.  This is pretty hard to do when you take the blanket attitude that all piracy is wrong.

OK.  Well then, enough said.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnOK. Well then, enough said.

Glad to see you are open minded enough to understand both sides of the debate.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkGlad to see you are open minded enough to understand both sides of the debate.

Yup.  Your welcome.

Pete

Quote from: Kyle AaronI note again that it's only an example matching the "curious" piracy motivation.

Agreed.

In a semi related is there a huge market for reselling illegally pirated RPG's? Movies yeah. CD's? Maybe. But RPG's? I'd be hard pressed to buy something like this second hand, if nothing else I like a book in my hands, and PDF's are really just for planning for me.

Now obviously I can't provide statistics to back this up, but I have a hard time seeing the Industry, RPG's, taking a beating from file sharing.

Quote from: Serious PaulAgreed.

In a semi related is there a huge market for reselling illegally pirated RPG's? Movies yeah. CD's? Maybe. But RPG's? I'd be hard pressed to buy something like this second hand, if nothing else I like a book in my hands, and PDF's are really just for planning for me.

I know ebay will not let you sell CDs with abunch of pirated PDFs on them.  Not that that means much.

QuoteNow obviously I can't provide statistics to back this up, but I have a hard time seeing the Industry, RPG's, taking a beating from file sharing.

The RPG Industry, no.  And by that I mean Wizards which pretty much IS the RPG Industry.  File sharing is not going to affect their sales one bit.

Pete

I don't really view this as a conflict between publishers and pirates. But let's suppose it's a conflict - a war.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles."

That's why it's important to consider the motivations of filesharers. Firstly, to know if they're a threat worth fighting, and secondly to be able to defeat them if you do fight them.

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

And perhaps by knowing their motivations, you could avoid or forestall their filesharing actions.

Or you could just go, "urgh! pirates! wrong! evil! kill!" which is very satisfying but not very productive. Most people would rather solve their problems than label them.

Quote from: Serious PaulIn a semi related is there a huge market for reselling illegally pirated RPG's?

Not much. The major market is in pirated stuff going to places where it's not available legally, like Melan was telling us about photocopies of AD&D showing up in Hungary.

This parallels the experience with movies and tv series, where it might be released in the USA in 2003, but by 2007 still hasn't made it to dvd or Australia (or whatever country). People will happily pirate that. "I'd buy it if I could, but they won't sell it, so fuck 'em."

If there's a demand for a product, the illegal supply will make up for a lack of legal supply. You should know that from your job, Paul.

Hey that's part of why I asked!