If I were an author, I'd want to be compensated for my work.

Setting aside all ethical issues for a moment, I want the people who make cool game stuff to continue to do so.  Giving them money seems like a no-brainer way of encouraging them.

My feeling is that if someone can't otherwise reasonably (ie. without extreme effort or cost) acquire an RPG, then downloading is morally acceptable.

What's more important on the practical scale is that filesharing is a reality. Its not going away, bitching about it does no good. Anyone who is an author or publisher should simply take into account the reality of this filesharing.

Here in south america, the vast majority of people get their RPGs through piracy.  There's really no way the average south american is going to be able to get most RPG books otherwise.

I certainly want to be compensated for my work, and I'd be pissed off if someone had the opportunity and the resources to buy FtA! but chose to get it from filesharing instead.

But at the end of the day, if someone was stuck between either downloading my game through filesharing or not getting to have my game at all, I'd much rather they got it for free than not be able to have it, play it, and enjoy it. I'm confident that if someone who either cannot afford or access FtA! except through filesharing were to get it, play it, share it with others, etc, then this would still lead to a bigger player base for the game, and at the end of the day that's what matters the most; because sooner or later a bigger player base means more recognition and profit for the designer/publishers.

The fact is, as I've said before, you can quickly judge how played a game really is by whether you can find it on the pirate networks or not. A game that gets on there quickly is a game that will have a lot of players; sure, it'll have more "Pirate" players but it'll also have more legitimate players as well.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SettembriniSeconded. I buy lots of in-print stuff pdf and books. But I´m not paying twice. A server/convenience fee, I can live with that. But not twice.
This mostly applies to Ptolus: they already had a system in which I [as rightful owner of the expensive book] got the first pdf for free. But not the rest. SUCK!

 Sett ,
 You bought Ptolus???   Oh Man.....


- Ed C.

Seriously now,  here is a hypothetical case close to something I've actually considered doing:

 Because of working at a game strore and getting a discount....I now have double copies of some of my GURPS books. (Also because of the bargain sales that SJG/Atlas did at their booth past couple of years at Gen*con and ORIGINS)

 Lets say I am about to start up a new INFINITE WORLDS-oriented campaiign. One of my players is out of town...but has his laptop and a decent internet connection - but wants to view campaign information before the game starts.

 I have TWO copies of GURPS:INFINITE WORLDS on hand....so I break the spine on one of them.. ..put a page or two on my scanner/all in one pinter machine and using adobe photoshop I crop and trim information meant for the campaign and save that as images and files.  

 THEN  I send the stuff to him to read  - as images or text files.  JUST the stuff relevent to the campaign mind you.

 In the above hypothetical  - Did I do anything unethical or illegal ??

I bought TWO books. Its not like I denied SJG  a sale  - technically that friend of mine ... instead of buying a book he wouldn't look at much ...just looked at files and images that he needed for his character - and no more than that.

So...does the above example seem ethical ?  or not ?

- Ed C.


By-the-way ...I voted "NO" in the poll.  I don't like IP pirates.

Quote from: HinterWeltSame with HinterWelt.

Cool, Bill.  I will certainly mention that in the future when these topics come up again.

Quote from: RPGPunditMy feeling is that if someone can't otherwise reasonably (ie. without extreme effort or cost) acquire an RPG, then downloading is morally acceptable.

I think the problem comes when people confuse (un)reasonable with (in)convenient.  I certainly won't get up in arms about an Inuit downloading any of our products for free, but if some guy from New York decides it's unreasonable to buy a $5 PDF because he'd be out a pack of smokes. . .  

QuoteI'm confident that if someone who either cannot afford or access FtA! except through filesharing were to get it, play it, share it with others, etc, then this would still lead to a bigger player base for the game, and at the end of the day that's what matters the most; because sooner or later a bigger player base means more recognition and profit for the designer/publishers.

Yeah, that's the silver lining I was talking about.  As you say, it's a fact of life that we have to deal with, and there is a certain satisfaction in knowing/seeing your game is getting played, but to expand on what jrients said, if somebody spends months creating a great game, hundreds to thousands of dollars putting it together/print/marketing/distributing it, and then sees it plastered all over the net after selling only a dozen copies, his interest in supporting that product and/or creating more great games is definitely going to wane.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnI think the problem comes when people confuse (un)reasonable with (in)convenient.  I certainly won't get up in arms about an Inuit downloading any of our products for free, but if some guy from New York decides it's unreasonable to buy a $5 PDF because he'd be out a pack of smokes. . .

Hey man...a pack of smokes in New York is..like...help me out here NYC guys...gotta be 10 bucks or something

Quote from: RPGPunditBut at the end of the day, if someone was stuck between either downloading my game through filesharing or not getting to have my game at all, I'd much rather they got it for free than not be able to have it, play it, and enjoy it. I'm confident that if someone who either cannot afford or access FtA! except through filesharing were to get it, play it, share it with others, etc, then this would still lead to a bigger player base for the game, and at the end of the day that's what matters the most; because sooner or later a bigger player base means more recognition and profit for the designer/publishers.

The fact is, as I've said before, you can quickly judge how played a game really is by whether you can find it on the pirate networks or not. A game that gets on there quickly is a game that will have a lot of players; sure, it'll have more "Pirate" players but it'll also have more legitimate players as well.

This is a fine attitude for Pundit and any other individual game designer to have - it is your perspective that this is, in the long run, a better thing for your work to go this route.

That being said, it has to be the choice of the individual publisher.  It is not OK to generalize Pundit's feeling to justify downloading something from anyone else. And that's where things get sticky.

I've asked this question before - I think in this very forum.  And if I'm not mistaken, I was even - in the hypothetical - offering to send money later.  The answer, IIRC, was a resounding no from most publishers.

Pundit needs to make it clear that this is his opinion, and not a general view on the industry, now that he's a part of it.  How do you feel about it, Clash?

Quote from: James J SkachHey man...a pack of smokes in New York is..like...help me out here NYC guys...gotta be 10 bucks or something

OK, then how about a gallon of gas--err, I mean milk--umm.  Damn  

For Koltar: It's certainly illegal. Any time you make a copy and distribute it without permission, that's illegal. You can make as many copies as you wish for your personal use, eg making backups, or pdf versions of a print book you've bought, etc. But you cannot distribute those copies. You can't pass them on to anyone else. You can scan your own book, and then lend the original to your friend, but you can't lend or give them the scan.

Yes I know it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's the law.

Now, as to "moral"... I can't get too emotional about it. I would say it's immoral in general. If the thing is not being published, and it's been several years out of print, and you never even see it on ebay, well I can't really condemn that.

And if you bought a print version and download a pdf version from filesharers, well I can't really condemn that - you're allowed to scan your own for private use, so downloading someone else's scan for private use, it comes to the same thing morally, if not legally.

If you just collect hundreds of the things, then you're a typical filesharer, and a bit of a cockhead. But since those guys don't read even 10% of the stuff they download, they're just compulsive collectors, while it's morally wrong I can't find myself getting excited about it.

In general I don't consider piracy to be a threat to the profits of the producers, because people who pirate one or more of,

• Poor
• Stingy
• Curious

Supposing we could stop piracy, the poor still would be poor and not buy; the stingy would still be stingy and not buy; and the curious who were just having a look would now no longer look - it's a bit like shrinkwrapping all your books in the store.

And as they say at Baen Books, every other method by which people get stuff free - libraries, friends lending books, books being sold second-hand - eventually comes to the benefit of the authour. It should be noted that in the past publishers were worried about libraries and secondhand bookstores, and tried to get larger slices of royalties from them, etc. They failed, luckily for them.

I think filesharing is probably a threat to the music and film industries because the shared file is an identical or at least comparable product; not as much of a threat as they say, but still a threat. Printed books and pdfs are different. With scans of books, people just aren't going to read 576 pages of GURPS (or whatever) on a screen. Sure, they can print it out, but that's so much expense and time that they'll buy it in print if they can (which is why most df rpg writers are offering their stuff as PoD these days).

Just remember that - the pirates are the poor, stingy or curious. So while they may be "immoral", I don't think they're a big threat, something to worry about. It's like someone looking at your spouse's arse - it might be wrong, but it's pretty harmless, nothing to stress about.

Good - someone answered the question!!

 Yay!!

 Kyle ...even if hypothetically from my same self made file or pdf  I could print up copies for reference at my own house during a game session?

 The fact it went from my house to his laptap via a wire makes it illegal ?
Instead of me just handing it to him at my house - like I might do during a game session?


- Ed C.

Aren't morals relative anyway? I've yet to meet any two people with the exact same set of morals, though I did meet a pair of conjoined twins who shared a left hand once.

Quote from: James J SkachI've asked this question before - I think in this very forum.  And if I'm not mistaken, I was even - in the hypothetical - offering to send money later.  The answer, IIRC, was a resounding no from most publishers.

I think it's just human nature not to pay for something once you've already got it.  A lot of times you _mean_ to pay for something and just never get around to it, and the longer it takes to get around to it, the less important it becomes.  Speaking from personal experience, I made a really bad mistake publishing a viking novel through PublishAmerica.  I own the PDF rights so I decided to make it a free download with the option that if someone really liked it, they could send a $1 to my PayPal account (there used to be a name for this _____ware, but I can't remember it).  Everyone who has read the book has liked it (including impartial reviewers such as Sun Boy - thanks again!), so it seems strange that after 3,000+ downloads (last time I checked), not one reader has liked it enough to pony up a dollar.  Like I said, human nature.  

Pete

Pete

Quote from: PookaAren't morals relative anyway? I've yet to meet any two people with the exact same set of morals, though I did meet a pair of conjoined twins who shared a left hand once.

Nope,

 Morals are not "relative" - at least not to me.
 I prefer to try and do the moral thing - if I know what it is.  Thats why I might post things like hypothetical situations - because sometimes gray areas show up - and I like to know what path leans closer to the moral or ethical one.

Also means I'd rather care than "not care" - on a variety of topics.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarNope,

 Morals are not "relative" - at least not to me.

I apologize if I derail this thread, but I just want to laugh long and hard here. Thanks for the laugh Koltar, I needed it!

Quote from: KoltarIn the above hypothetical  - Did I do anything unethical or illegal ??

So...does the above example seem ethical ?  or not ?

Illegal - yes. Ethical - fuzzy. I wouldn't have a problem with it personally.

Check the info page at the beginning of your GURPS book. There is probably something to the effect of "No portion of this work may be reproduced in any form without written permission" - quote from my D20 Modern core rulebook.

Quote from: Kyle AaronYou can make as many copies as you wish for your personal use, eg making backups, or pdf versions of a print book you've bought, etc.

I don't think this is the case here in the US. It's a bit of a gray area as to what constitutes "fair use", but I believe you are not permitted to make any copies for personal use. An example, IIRC, copying a music CD for a "backup" in case of damage is illegal.